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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:01 am 
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Difficult one.

Whilst I can understand why those fighting for the 'top spots' should not have their race compromised by those at the back of the pack, at the same time those fighting for points (against another driver) shouldn't have their race compromised either.

It seems to be a recent phenomenon that blue flags are waved far too quickly - i.e. when the 'overtaking' driver is a couple of seconds behind?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:29 am 
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^ I'm of largely the same opinion. Drivers about to be lapped should not unnecessarily hold up those lapping but should not have to significantly compromise their own race either. I think that the current blue flag practice is a bit severe on the lapped drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:16 pm 
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It's not people fighting for points that are having their races spoiled, it's no names like Guttierez trundling around in 14th place driving like friends that are the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:50 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
It's not people fighting for points that are having their races spoiled, it's no names like Guttierez trundling around in 14th place driving like friends that are the problem.


He wasn't really trundling around though was he, he was racing his pickle off. He was just in a far slower car.

The reason we are getting more moaning these days is in part how early the blue is getting shown, part how tricky it is following a car and also in part that the leaders in quicker cars don't want to upset their rhythm of looking after their tyres and PU. They view it as an inconvenience to get a bit more racy and get the pass made as their driving to deltas and being cautious under braking to save their tyres so want the blue flag to do the work for them and the other car to just vanish.

There should be more done from all sides really and the rules around PU's and the type of tyres we have currently don't make it easy either, you can hardly blame the leaders for not wanting to disrupt their rhythm or turn their PU up to get the move done but we can't just say the drivers in the slower car are trundling.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:41 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
It's not people fighting for points that are having their races spoiled, it's no names like Guttierez trundling around in 14th place driving like friends that are the problem.


Not true at all. People fighting for points get lapped in most races.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:55 am 
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The current approach to Blue flags is because officials can't trust back markers to intelligently let the leaders through and some would take the approach of "if your faster get by as normal". - which would be fine 20 years ago but with the current focus on aero and tyres deg it would become an issue every week

For me they have to be as harsh as they are being currently with the blue flags


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:04 am 
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Andy2402 wrote:
The current approach to Blue flags is because officials can't trust back markers to intelligently let the leaders through and some would take the approach of "if your faster get by as normal". - which would be fine 20 years ago but with the current focus on aero and tyres deg it would become an issue every week

For me they have to be as harsh as they are being currently with the blue flags


Why can't they wait for the leader to be close before showing blue flags? Blue flags still mean they have to let the leader go past.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:03 pm 
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I imagine they only wave when the leaders are close.

Why not when right behind? I would imagine it would be advantageous to have prior warning as to be able to plan where one might "let him through" to help avoid the stuck behind for half the lap situation that can happen at certain tracks

I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:47 pm 
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Maybe they should look at the lap lengths. With laps so short the enders are going to get caught several times per race without counting pit stoppers. They carves tracks in half without considering this, and if they are going to be 5 seconds shorter next year, it will get worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:10 am 
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Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:52 am 
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moby wrote:
Maybe they should look at the lap lengths. With laps so short the enders are going to get caught several times per race without counting pit stoppers. They carves tracks in half without considering this, and if they are going to be 5 seconds shorter next year, it will get worse.


Monaco, Austria and Hockenheim are the only really short tracks that I can think of off the top of my head.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:02 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
moby wrote:
Maybe they should look at the lap lengths. With laps so short the enders are going to get caught several times per race without counting pit stoppers. They carves tracks in half without considering this, and if they are going to be 5 seconds shorter next year, it will get worse.


Monaco, Austria and Hockenheim are the only really short tracks that I can think of off the top of my head.


Interlagos, Mexico city, Montreal.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:36 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?

Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?
I do. Honestly. These people are running in the same race as those lucky enough to have faster cars.

pokerman wrote:
Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?
What sporting purpose is served by interfering with the race the backmarkers are running? And why would a backmarker's race be any less important than that of a lucky frontrunner? To them, merely scoring a single point is like winning the race, and that goes for the team itself just as well.
From a sporting point of view, the blue flag rules make no sense. Neither do they from a team financial point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?

Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?


Three words that perhaps speak so loudly about your view on F1.

Um, I wonder, if your favourite driver ended up in a car being lapped, perhaps down to it being a slow car rather than a poor single race, would you suddenly have no interest in how they got on in F1?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?

Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?


I do. And I imagine if Hamilton ended up in a car with poor pace so would you.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:33 pm 
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Thinking about it, not caring about the back markers being disadvantaged even more is incredibly selfish and narrow minded than I first thought. It's the kind of thought process that probably reinforces the continuing void between the sport and the fans. We're simply seen as not being important and are priced out of the sport to cater for celebs and those that visit races as corporate events, most of which do not care one jot about the sport, but do pump in a lot of money commercially.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:32 am 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?
I do. Honestly. These people are running in the same race as those lucky enough to have faster cars.

pokerman wrote:
Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?
What sporting purpose is served by interfering with the race the backmarkers are running? And why would a backmarker's race be any less important than that of a lucky frontrunner? To them, merely scoring a single point is like winning the race, and that goes for the team itself just as well.
From a sporting point of view, the blue flag rules make no sense. Neither do they from a team financial point of view.

I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:35 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?

Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?


Three words that perhaps speak so loudly about your view on F1.

Um, I wonder, if your favourite driver ended up in a car being lapped, perhaps down to it being a slow car rather than a poor single race, would you suddenly have no interest in how they got on in F1?

My interest would always be how he performs relative to his teammate but that wouldn't give him the right to hold up the leaders.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:37 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?

Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?


I do. And I imagine if Hamilton ended up in a car with poor pace so would you.

Not to the extent that he interferes with the leaders.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:49 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Thinking about it, not caring about the back markers being disadvantaged even more is incredibly selfish and narrow minded than I first thought. It's the kind of thought process that probably reinforces the continuing void between the sport and the fans. We're simply seen as not being important and are priced out of the sport to cater for celebs and those that visit races as corporate events, most of which do not care one jot about the sport, but do pump in a lot of money commercially.

Well if it was a Marathon the leaders wouldn't have the problem of negotiating the back markers or if the tracks were as long as they were in the distant past the problem would be greatly reduced, i don't understand why backmarkers should have the same rights as cars that have completed 1 lap more than they have?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?
I do. Honestly. These people are running in the same race as those lucky enough to have faster cars.

pokerman wrote:
Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?
What sporting purpose is served by interfering with the race the backmarkers are running? And why would a backmarker's race be any less important than that of a lucky frontrunner? To them, merely scoring a single point is like winning the race, and that goes for the team itself just as well.
From a sporting point of view, the blue flag rules make no sense. Neither do they from a team financial point of view.

I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).

why?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thinking about it, not caring about the back markers being disadvantaged even more is incredibly selfish and narrow minded than I first thought. It's the kind of thought process that probably reinforces the continuing void between the sport and the fans. We're simply seen as not being important and are priced out of the sport to cater for celebs and those that visit races as corporate events, most of which do not care one jot about the sport, but do pump in a lot of money commercially.

Well if it was a Marathon the leaders wouldn't have the problem of negotiating the back markers or if the tracks were as long as they were in the distant past the problem would be greatly reduced, i don't understand why backmarkers should have the same rights as cars that have completed 1 lap more than they have?

I don't understand why they should forfeit any rights simply because they have a slower car?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:25 am 
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Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:39 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.
:lol:

pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).
I think you are right about people in general. But they don't define the rules of the sport, and neither do those lucky enough to end up in fast cars.

Let me contrast "if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s)" with 'if the leader can't get past a backmarker, he has no right to defend against an overtake attempt by the P2 driver'. Why do you think a backmarker has fewer rights than the driver in P1?

A lot of fans want to see more overtaking, in cancelling the current blue flag rules, they would instantly get it back.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:28 am 
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I couldn't resist!

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:31 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...


The purpose of that proposal would be to prevent instances where there are 2+ back markers, one of which has his line/racing significantly hindered when a front runner passes/is let past etc, leading to the other back markers (direct competitors) passing him/getting a run.

That won't stop back markers losing time as they do now but at least it would stop them getting mugged by another car as a result of compromising themselves to adhere to Blue flags

The only issue I can see with this is that cars are lapped that often , there wouldn't be many laps where cars could legally pass in the second half of the race

Any actual thoughts on that, or a viable solution perhaps ?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...

Honestly who cares?
I do. Honestly. These people are running in the same race as those lucky enough to have faster cars.

pokerman wrote:
Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?
What sporting purpose is served by interfering with the race the backmarkers are running? And why would a backmarker's race be any less important than that of a lucky frontrunner? To them, merely scoring a single point is like winning the race, and that goes for the team itself just as well.
From a sporting point of view, the blue flag rules make no sense. Neither do they from a team financial point of view.

I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).

why?

When i watch bike racing i want to watch the leaders more so than the midfield runners, sometimes if the racing at the front is spread out it's nice to watch some racing further down the field, but overall I'm more interested with who finishes 1st, 2nd and 3rd rather 7th, 8th and 9th, i would be very surprised if I'm in the minority on this one?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thinking about it, not caring about the back markers being disadvantaged even more is incredibly selfish and narrow minded than I first thought. It's the kind of thought process that probably reinforces the continuing void between the sport and the fans. We're simply seen as not being important and are priced out of the sport to cater for celebs and those that visit races as corporate events, most of which do not care one jot about the sport, but do pump in a lot of money commercially.

Well if it was a Marathon the leaders wouldn't have the problem of negotiating the back markers or if the tracks were as long as they were in the distant past the problem would be greatly reduced, i don't understand why backmarkers should have the same rights as cars that have completed 1 lap more than they have?

I don't understand why they should forfeit any rights simply because they have a slower car?

You would be more happy if the driver himself was that much slower?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.
:lol:

pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).
I think you are right about people in general. But they don't define the rules of the sport, and neither do those lucky enough to end up in fast cars.

Let me contrast "if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s)" with 'if the leader can't get past a backmarker, he has no right to defend against an overtake attempt by the P2 driver'. Why do you think a backmarker has fewer rights than the driver in P1?

A lot of fans want to see more overtaking, in cancelling the current blue flag rules, they would instantly get it back.

Neither do people on forums either, the rules set out are what i agree with.

Given what you said the notion as I suspected is simply another why to try and spice up the racing with forumers having become bored with the Mercedes dominance.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.
:lol:

pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).
I think you are right about people in general. But they don't define the rules of the sport, and neither do those lucky enough to end up in fast cars.

Let me contrast "if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s)" with 'if the leader can't get past a backmarker, he has no right to defend against an overtake attempt by the P2 driver'. Why do you think a backmarker has fewer rights than the driver in P1?

A lot of fans want to see more overtaking, in cancelling the current blue flag rules, they would instantly get it back.

Neither do people on forums either, the rules set out are what i agree with.

Given what you said the notion as I suspected is simply another why to try and spice up the racing with forumers having become bored with the Mercedes dominance.


It really isn't about who is at the front. It's about blue flags being waved way to early.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.
:lol:

pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).
I think you are right about people in general. But they don't define the rules of the sport, and neither do those lucky enough to end up in fast cars.

Let me contrast "if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s)" with 'if the leader can't get past a backmarker, he has no right to defend against an overtake attempt by the P2 driver'. Why do you think a backmarker has fewer rights than the driver in P1?

A lot of fans want to see more overtaking, in cancelling the current blue flag rules, they would instantly get it back.

Neither do people on forums either, the rules set out are what i agree with.

Given what you said the notion as I suspected is simply another why to try and spice up the racing with forumers having become bored with the Mercedes dominance.


It really isn't about who is at the front. It's about blue flags being waved way to early.

We don't really know how early they are being waved though, Vettel, blue flags, blue flags, clearly doesn't think they are being shown early enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.
:lol:

pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).
I think you are right about people in general. But they don't define the rules of the sport, and neither do those lucky enough to end up in fast cars.

Let me contrast "if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s)" with 'if the leader can't get past a backmarker, he has no right to defend against an overtake attempt by the P2 driver'. Why do you think a backmarker has fewer rights than the driver in P1?

A lot of fans want to see more overtaking, in cancelling the current blue flag rules, they would instantly get it back.

Neither do people on forums either, the rules set out are what i agree with.

Given what you said the notion as I suspected is simply another why to try and spice up the racing with forumers having become bored with the Mercedes dominance.


It really isn't about who is at the front. It's about blue flags being waved way to early.

We don't really know how early they are being waved though, Vettel, blue flags, blue flags, clearly doesn't think they are being shown early enough.


We do really know because we can actually look and see. I have seen on multiple occasions in the last few years blue flags being waved way to soon. Palmer was a victim of a particularly harsh one earlier in the season where he had to back off and let a car past that was about 2 seconds back.

Vettel can whine all he likes it doesn't mean the powers that be have to take any notice. Why should he relay on the kindness of back markers to make his job easier? Personally I really like Vettel most of the time but he often sounds like an absolute whinge bag on the radio.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:31 pm 
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It has precisely nothing to do with Merc being so fast over recent seasons. Not sure how many people are stating that it is. Is there evidence backing that point up?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thinking about it, not caring about the back markers being disadvantaged even more is incredibly selfish and narrow minded than I first thought. It's the kind of thought process that probably reinforces the continuing void between the sport and the fans. We're simply seen as not being important and are priced out of the sport to cater for celebs and those that visit races as corporate events, most of which do not care one jot about the sport, but do pump in a lot of money commercially.

Well if it was a Marathon the leaders wouldn't have the problem of negotiating the back markers or if the tracks were as long as they were in the distant past the problem would be greatly reduced, i don't understand why backmarkers should have the same rights as cars that have completed 1 lap more than they have?

I don't understand why they should forfeit any rights simply because they have a slower car?

You would be more happy if the driver himself was that much slower?

No, I'm not happy with any driver being (dis)advantaged via the rules. You still haven't explained why being lapped should make one a second class citizen


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Honestly who cares?
I do. Honestly. These people are running in the same race as those lucky enough to have faster cars.

pokerman wrote:
Also by improving the racing would that involve the backmarkers interfering with the race at the front?
What sporting purpose is served by interfering with the race the backmarkers are running? And why would a backmarker's race be any less important than that of a lucky frontrunner? To them, merely scoring a single point is like winning the race, and that goes for the team itself just as well.
From a sporting point of view, the blue flag rules make no sense. Neither do they from a team financial point of view.

I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).

why?

When i watch bike racing i want to watch the leaders more so than the midfield runners, sometimes if the racing at the front is spread out it's nice to watch some racing further down the field, but overall I'm more interested with who finishes 1st, 2nd and 3rd rather 7th, 8th and 9th, i would be very surprised if I'm in the minority on this one?

But that doesn't explain why you should lose the right to compete, though?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).

why?

When i watch bike racing i want to watch the leaders more so than the midfield runners, sometimes if the racing at the front is spread out it's nice to watch some racing further down the field, but overall I'm more interested with who finishes 1st, 2nd and 3rd rather 7th, 8th and 9th, i would be very surprised if I'm in the minority on this one?

But that doesn't explain why you should lose the right to compete, though?

You don't have the right to compete because you are a lap behind, it's a simple as that.

Also claims that it would make the racing more exciting as the leaders fight tooth and nail with backmarkers possibly even colliding with them perhaps goes down the same route as reverse grid racing as far as i'm concerned, just a case of people wanting to spice up the racing.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).

why?

When i watch bike racing i want to watch the leaders more so than the midfield runners, sometimes if the racing at the front is spread out it's nice to watch some racing further down the field, but overall I'm more interested with who finishes 1st, 2nd and 3rd rather 7th, 8th and 9th, i would be very surprised if I'm in the minority on this one?

But that doesn't explain why you should lose the right to compete, though?

You don't have the right to compete because you are a lap behind, it's a simple as that.

Also claims that it would make the racing more exciting as the leaders fight tooth and nail with backmarkers possibly even colliding with them perhaps goes down the same route as reverse grid racing as far as i'm concerned, just a case of people wanting to spice up the racing.

So a driver suffers a puncture and has to pit. Loses a tremendous amount of time and comes out just behind the leaders. But he then loses the right to compete? What an odd view.

I asked the question earlier what was the catalyst for the current version of the rules, but nobody has yet answered. Blue flags used to be advisory, just to let drivers know that a faster car was coming up behind. Why did they feel it necessary to change it so that back markers might have to potentially throw their race away?

For me it's not about making the race more exciting. But front runners already enjoy so many advantages. I don't see why they should have their life made easier at the expense of others, nor do I see why they shouldn't be made to employ their skills in overtaking others. Often the leader hasn't had to make a single overtake all race. Well, why shouldn't he have to get his hands dirty for a change?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.
:lol:

pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).
I think you are right about people in general. But they don't define the rules of the sport, and neither do those lucky enough to end up in fast cars.

Let me contrast "if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s)" with 'if the leader can't get past a backmarker, he has no right to defend against an overtake attempt by the P2 driver'. Why do you think a backmarker has fewer rights than the driver in P1?

A lot of fans want to see more overtaking, in cancelling the current blue flag rules, they would instantly get it back.

Neither do people on forums either, the rules set out are what i agree with.

Given what you said the notion as I suspected is simply another why to try and spice up the racing with forumers having become bored with the Mercedes dominance.
You're right, fans on forums don't make the rules. But some of them, like myself, have known the system of lapping as it used to be, and who liked that natural way of influencing the results far more than artificialities such as the current blue flag rules. I believe it was Senna who started whinging about backmarkers not jumping out of the way at the mere sight of the feared yellow helmet. Perhaps, like Hamilton, he would have thought differently if he had actually ever been one of the monkeys at the back.

But the main point I would like you to understand, is that it isn't about spicing up the racing*. It is about racing (including racing backmarkers) and about respect. As I said before, given that the front runners can use DRS on the backmarkers every single time, I don't see any reason why we should give them an extra advantage that ruins more than one backmarker's race, every single race.

* If there's anything I dislike almost as much as outright cheating, it is the misguided urge to spice things up.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
why?

When i watch bike racing i want to watch the leaders more so than the midfield runners, sometimes if the racing at the front is spread out it's nice to watch some racing further down the field, but overall I'm more interested with who finishes 1st, 2nd and 3rd rather 7th, 8th and 9th, i would be very surprised if I'm in the minority on this one?

But that doesn't explain why you should lose the right to compete, though?

You don't have the right to compete because you are a lap behind, it's a simple as that.

Also claims that it would make the racing more exciting as the leaders fight tooth and nail with backmarkers possibly even colliding with them perhaps goes down the same route as reverse grid racing as far as i'm concerned, just a case of people wanting to spice up the racing.

So a driver suffers a puncture and has to pit. Loses a tremendous amount of time and comes out just behind the leaders. But he then loses the right to compete? What an odd view.

I asked the question earlier what was the catalyst for the current version of the rules, but nobody has yet answered. Blue flags used to be advisory, just to let drivers know that a faster car was coming up behind. Why did they feel it necessary to change it so that back markers might have to potentially throw their race away?

For me it's not about making the race more exciting. But front runners already enjoy so many advantages. I don't see why they should have their life made easier at the expense of others, nor do I see why they shouldn't be made to employ their skills in overtaking others. Often the leader hasn't had to make a single overtake all race. Well, why shouldn't he have to get his hands dirty for a change?

That's a different scenario, there is nothing in the rules to stop a car from unlapping himself, what we are clearly talking about is a leading car catching a slower backmarker car.

However it does negate my statement about lapped cars being allowed to compete against the leaders, they can if they are faster.

Why the present rules are in place i can only go from memory, but there was dissatisfaction from fans about the races at the front being ruined by backmarkers, and this was not a simple case of the leader himself losing the lead as such but as much about the chasing car catching the leader only then to be delayed by back markers thus ruining the race at the very front.

If you look at the present SC rules they allow the lapped cars to unlap themselves in order that at the restart the chasing cars at the front are not delayed by backmarkers, in this instance the leader himself is the one most disadvantaged whilst the lapped cars and backmarker cars are able to gain a huge advantage, so the rules presently have not been changed just to disadvantage backmarkers.

It's my understanding these blue flag rules have been in place for the last 15 years and now people have a big problem with it? :?

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Last edited by pokerman on Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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