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 Post subject: Yay! Renault Are Back
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:39 pm 
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Now, whose engine are they going to use? :twisted:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:54 pm 
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I'm not sure that happened yet.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:01 pm 
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From what I've heard Renault will be buying 65% of the shares in lotus from genii for 65 million (pounds I assume?) that would give the team a rough value of around 100 million... units of currency?

Aren't lotus spending more than that in a single year currently?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:20 pm 
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Blackhander wrote:
From what I've heard Renault will be buying 65% of the shares in lotus from genii for 65 million (pounds I assume?) that would give the team a rough value of around 100 million... units of currency?

Aren't lotus spending more than that in a single year currently?


Cant remember all the details but with prize money, a yearly payment from CVC for a 5 year contract, sponsors, etc. they expect to have an operating budget of around $250 million a year. I think that includes Pastors money.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:26 pm 
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I'm quite surprised it's going through, I really thought they'd pull out.

With the engine token situation, limited testing, and data from only one team going forward (a team who I'd imagine are pretty far behind on development of their 2016 car given their financial situation), Renault are in for a difficult time next year, with limited ability to catch up in the years that follow. Unless they've had some assurances from Bernie about opening up development.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:37 pm 
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steoc4 wrote:
I'm quite surprised it's going through, I really thought they'd pull out.

With the engine token situation, limited testing, and data from only one team going forward (a team who I'd imagine are pretty far behind on development of their 2016 car given their financial situation), Renault are in for a difficult time next year, with limited ability to catch up in the years that follow. Unless they've had some assurances from Bernie about opening up development.

Mercedes are looking to help them out, plus Mercedes are more open in increasing the tokens because they can see it's not fair for new engine manufacturers wanting to join.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:52 pm 
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steoc4 wrote:
I'm quite surprised it's going through, I really thought they'd pull out.

With the engine token situation, limited testing, and data from only one team going forward (a team who I'd imagine are pretty far behind on development of their 2016 car given their financial situation), Renault are in for a difficult time next year, with limited ability to catch up in the years that follow. Unless they've had some assurances from Bernie about opening up development.


I think Lotus/Renault will use Mercedes engines for 2016 allowing Renault to arrive with a whole fresh PU in 2017.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:25 pm 
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It's going to be odd seeing a Renault-Mercedes branded car. I wonder if they are in the process of negotiating with Mercedes to debrand the PU, like Sauber-Petronas did with Ferrari back in the late 90's early 2000's


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:25 pm 
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madchild wrote:
It's going to be odd seeing a Renault-Mercedes branded car. I wonder if they are in the process of negotiating with Mercedes to debrand the PU, like Sauber-Petronas did with Ferrari back in the late 90's early 2000's


Yeah, was it like: Sauber Petronas BMW Ferrari? Confusing.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:52 pm 
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madchild wrote:
It's going to be odd seeing a Renault-Mercedes branded car. I wonder if they are in the process of negotiating with Mercedes to debrand the PU, like Sauber-Petronas did with Ferrari back in the late 90's early 2000's

I'm guessing they might use the Lotus name in 2016 if they use Mercedes engines?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:53 pm 
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I am still waiting to hear if they will be allowed to introduce a new engine. and what penalties they will get.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:12 pm 
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madchild wrote:
It's going to be odd seeing a Renault-Mercedes branded car. I wonder if they are in the process of negotiating with Mercedes to debrand the PU, like Sauber-Petronas did with Ferrari back in the late 90's early 2000's

Well, Mercedes already uses some Renault engines in the passenger/cargo cars, so it's not as new thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:21 pm 
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If it does happen I will be very intrigued to see how they'll do. With the rumored budget they should be considered one of the top teams. You would also think that their power unit for next year will be vastly improved. Honestly I'm excited for them if it happens.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:23 pm 
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moby wrote:
I am still waiting to hear if they will be allowed to introduce a new engine. and what penalties they will get.


They still have not used any tokens for this year, last time I checked. So using those for next year should improve their PU immensely.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:53 pm 
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looking forward to seeing the yellow Renault on track again ,always loved the early80's turbo car


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:15 pm 
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slide wrote:
looking forward to seeing the yellow Renault on track again ,always loved the early80's turbo car

:thumbup: Jean-Pierre Jabouille, Alain Prost and Rene Arnoux. Some of the most beautiful F1 cars ever!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:23 pm 
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This can only be great news for F1 :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:25 pm 
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Been looking forward to it ever since the rumors started to take shape. Another top team is just what the sport needs, and in this current era sadly top team equals manufacturer team. With Haas and Renault joining the grid in 2016, things are looking pretty exciting - assuming RBR and STR are still there as well, at least...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:03 pm 
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slide wrote:
looking forward to seeing the yellow Renault on track again ...

I still have quite a soft spot for the 2010 livery:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:21 pm 
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Love that yellow and black livery, they did such a good job with that. Especially with Kubica's matching helmet. Would love them to return to that!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:29 pm 
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That's good news. :thumbup: A letter of intent isn't exactly the same thing as the deal already being done, but it's certainly a hopeful sign. Having Renault back should spice things up for next year with another competetive team on the grid, assuming the engine improves for 2016! It'll be interesting to see what their driver line-up looks like in the end, too.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:49 am 
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slide wrote:
looking forward to seeing the yellow Renault on track again ,always loved the early80's turbo car


is this the one you talked about?

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image from http://www.auto123.com

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:21 am 
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Like everyone else, I'm fascinated to read how this will play out :) .

Will they use the Merc engine next year whilst building another engine of their own for '17? Or have they been saving all their tokens this year in readiness for taking over Lotus?

Either way, its good to hear that Renault will return as a team.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:45 am 
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Just for the sake of argument:

Red Bull (and Toro Rosso) both leave Renault in a huff and find the other two engine suppliers going 'uh... you're still wiping the blood off your hands from your last partner, no thanks'.
Renault buy Lotus just after the paperwork on the Red Bull severance is completed.
Renault *immediately* introduce a new engine they've been quietly working on that uses all their tokens in one hit and solves a majority of power / reliability problems.
Red Bull and Red Bull Jr then effectively end up testing that powerplant on behalf of Renault's new team for the remaining couple of races of the season!

Net result: Renault end up with a decent engine in their own chassis (which, if based on the current Lotus, would be at least mid-pack). Red Bull end up with Flintstone power for 2016 after being forced to 'test' an improved Renault unit knowing they can't have it past 2015. Merc and Ferrari snicker in the corner.

Granted none of this is likely to happen but boy would that be entertaining!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:15 am 
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I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:22 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.

They could, but it would be to their benefit to run run the updated 2015 unit in at least a couple of races to see the in car vs dyno performance.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:27 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.

They could, but it would be to their benefit to run run the updated 2015 unit in at least a couple of races to see the in car vs dyno performance.

Well I assume they are not going to use all 2015 tokens during they planned upgrade in Sochi (or later). I wonder if they can spend remaining 2015 tokens and (at least some of) 2016 at once.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:31 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.

They could, but it would be to their benefit to run run the updated 2015 unit in at least a couple of races to see the in car vs dyno performance.

Well I assume they are not going to use all 2015 tokens during they planned upgrade in Sochi (or later). I wonder if they can spend remaining 2015 tokens and (at least some of) 2016 at once.

they can use the tokens in theory... the changes must be submitted before the end of the season in the form of drawings and descriptions to the FIA delegates...
renault, however, only can test their updated PUs if their teams opt to take another engine swap penalty... i guess that will depend on the terms of the contract termination...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:43 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.


What's the difference whether it'll be raced or not? The tokens still have to be used by the end of the season and the 2016 tokens are only to be used after that. The possibilities are exactly the same whether racing it or not.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:50 am 
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mds wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.


What's the difference whether it'll be raced or not? The tokens still have to be used by the end of the season and the 2016 tokens are only to be used after that. The possibilities are exactly the same whether racing it or not.

No exactly the same. They can better coordinate the updates and plan them as 1 big change, they don't need to worry about reliability of 2015 update and there is less pressure since they would only need to perfect the engine in 2016.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:50 am 
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Good news as much as I loved Lotus from Chapman I never thought the name belonged to the Enstone team. But they still might use the Lotus name as long as they don't have an engine of their own to use. 2016 is looking to be a transition year for them. And oh yeah no more black and gold livery!

I would like to see the white-yellow-black livery back. But I admit I liked the light blue one too from Alonso's period.
They yellow Renault looked too much like the Jordan from the late nineties.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:34 am 
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Will be sad to see the Lotus name disappear from the grid even if it was never the real, Chapman team which went belly up in 94. On the other hand that 2010 yellow livery was pretty smart. The only I didn't really like was the red Total end plates. Same on the Lotus.

I'm just hoping they give Palmer a race seat and kick Pastor into touch for 2017. Saying "it's not his fault, he gets a lot of bad luck," just doesn't really cut it. He has to actually deliver something impressive and he has failed.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:50 am 
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so, come australia should we change the thread-title to "Yay! Renault Are at the Back"? :twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:24 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
mds wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.


What's the difference whether it'll be raced or not? The tokens still have to be used by the end of the season and the 2016 tokens are only to be used after that. The possibilities are exactly the same whether racing it or not.

No exactly the same. They can better coordinate the updates and plan them as 1 big change, they don't need to worry about reliability of 2015 update and there is less pressure since they would only need to perfect the engine in 2016.

Except the 2015 tokens need to be used by the end of this season and the 2016 tokens can't be used until after the season so it's not possible to used them all as one big update.

Also, unless something changes, all of the 2016 tokens need to be used by the homologation date in February or they'll be lost so there will be no updates, other than for reliability, during the season next year.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:36 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
mds wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.


What's the difference whether it'll be raced or not? The tokens still have to be used by the end of the season and the 2016 tokens are only to be used after that. The possibilities are exactly the same whether racing it or not.

No exactly the same. They can better coordinate the updates and plan them as 1 big change, they don't need to worry about reliability of 2015 update and there is less pressure since they would only need to perfect the engine in 2016.

Except the 2015 tokens need to be used by the end of this season and the 2016 tokens can't be used until after the season so it's not possible to used them all as one big update.

Also, unless something changes, all of the 2016 tokens need to be used by the homologation date in February or they'll be lost so there will be no updates, other than for reliability, during the season next year.


What makes it more interesting is that Red Bull have said they may not use an updated engine anyway as they have to take grid penalties.
(Ves is on 8th ICE, Ric on 7th (4th this time last year), Kvyat 7th ice)
Renault have been a real mess.
Don't forget Toro Rosso just moved over from Ferrari to be with Renault for the next power units. I am sure that Renault talked up their units before TR made the switch.
Red Bull have copped a lot of flack over criticising Renault, but what could they do. They are in the 2nd year of the new power unit era, and they are still as far off the pace as they were last year.
Just look at the cracks appearing at McLaren Honda and if they are in the same boat this time next year, I am sure McLaren will be looking for a divorce as well...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:50 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
mds wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.


What's the difference whether it'll be raced or not? The tokens still have to be used by the end of the season and the 2016 tokens are only to be used after that. The possibilities are exactly the same whether racing it or not.

No exactly the same. They can better coordinate the updates and plan them as 1 big change, they don't need to worry about reliability of 2015 update and there is less pressure since they would only need to perfect the engine in 2016.

Except the 2015 tokens need to be used by the end of this season and the 2016 tokens can't be used until after the season so it's not possible to used them all as one big update.

Also, unless something changes, all of the 2016 tokens need to be used by the homologation date in February or they'll be lost so there will be no updates, other than for reliability, during the season next year.

I'm not sure what exactly do you mean. Firstly the fact that Renault uses their 2015 tokens doesn't mean that the engines have to be used in 2015. In fact there is good chance that neither STR nor Red Bull will use Sochi update. Secondly if Renault would have some tokens still left after Sochi update or if Red Bull and STR decline to use updated engine, Renault can use them along 2016 tokens as a one big update split into 2 parts. First part would be using all remaining 2015 tokens before deadline, then 2016 tokens. The advantage of such a move would be that Renault would no need to think about final 2015 holologation being usable in racing, but only as part of 2016 engine update.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:02 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Secondly if Renault would have some tokens still left after Sochi update or if Red Bull and STR decline to use updated engine, Renault can use them along 2016 tokens as a one big update split into 2 parts. First part would be using all remaining 2015 tokens before deadline, then 2016 tokens. The advantage of such a move would be that Renault would no need to think about final 2015 holologation being usable in racing, but only as part of 2016 engine update.


OK, but then you're assuming that there are things they can do to "partially" update the PU and leave it in an incoherent state, and finish the job with 2016 tokens.

Well, that might be possible - or it might not.

Also it assumes that homologation doesn't require the PU to actually be presented in some kind of a working state. Are we sure of that?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:03 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
mds wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe Renault might use all 2015 tokens very late and don't use that engine in races and then use 2016 tokens. That could allow Renault to make major upgrade that wouldn't be possible using just 2016 tokens.


What's the difference whether it'll be raced or not? The tokens still have to be used by the end of the season and the 2016 tokens are only to be used after that. The possibilities are exactly the same whether racing it or not.

No exactly the same. They can better coordinate the updates and plan them as 1 big change, they don't need to worry about reliability of 2015 update and there is less pressure since they would only need to perfect the engine in 2016.

Except the 2015 tokens need to be used by the end of this season and the 2016 tokens can't be used until after the season so it's not possible to used them all as one big update.

Also, unless something changes, all of the 2016 tokens need to be used by the homologation date in February or they'll be lost so there will be no updates, other than for reliability, during the season next year.

I'm not sure what exactly do you mean. Firstly the fact that Renault uses their 2015 tokens doesn't mean that the engines have to be used in 2015. In fact there is good chance that neither STR nor Red Bull will use Sochi update. Secondly if Renault would have some tokens still left after Sochi update or if Red Bull and STR decline to use updated engine, Renault can use them along 2016 tokens as a one big update split into 2 parts. First part would be using all remaining 2015 tokens before deadline, then 2016 tokens. The advantage of such a move would be that Renault would no need to think about final 2015 holologation being usable in racing, but only as part of 2016 engine update.

Ok, we're saying the same thing just differently. I see presenting a design using up the remaining 2015 tokens to the FIA, and using next years tokens for the 2016 PU as two different things.

While you see it as if the 2015 changes were presented but never run on track this year it would in essence be one big upgrade when they show up to testing in the spring.

And while it would be up to the RB teams to decide whether or not to run an updated unit on track based on their needs it would be to Renaults benefit to build a couple to have some real data on the changes made with this years tokens.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:53 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Ok, we're saying the same thing just differently. I see presenting a design using up the remaining 2015 tokens to the FIA, and using next years tokens for the 2016 PU as two different things.

While you see it as if the 2015 changes were presented but never run on track this year it would in essence be one big upgrade when they show up to testing in the spring.

And while it would be up to the RB teams to decide whether or not to run an updated unit on track based on their needs it would be to Renaults benefit to build a couple to have some real data on the changes made with this years tokens.

There are plans at least one updated during season, but Renault might still not use all tokens for it. Of course little real world testing might backfire, but one big upgrade might allow to things that wouldn't be possible if the upgrades were completely separate. On the other hand Mercedes was said that Monza update was preparation for 2016, so what you say might also be reasonable.

mds wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Secondly if Renault would have some tokens still left after Sochi update or if Red Bull and STR decline to use updated engine, Renault can use them along 2016 tokens as a one big update split into 2 parts. First part would be using all remaining 2015 tokens before deadline, then 2016 tokens. The advantage of such a move would be that Renault would no need to think about final 2015 holologation being usable in racing, but only as part of 2016 engine update.


OK, but then you're assuming that there are things they can do to "partially" update the PU and leave it in an incoherent state, and finish the job with 2016 tokens.

Well, that might be possible - or it might not.

Also it assumes that homologation doesn't require the PU to actually be presented in some kind of a working state. Are we sure of that?

I'm not sure about it, it's just my wild idea. As I said above it opens some possibilities for more radical change that might have not been possible or was more difficult if there were just operate updates. Of course between part 1 and part 2 update there could be even few months so it wouldn't be like one pre planed upgrade. Renault would certainly make some advances after 2015 season end and 2016 deadline, still it can open some opportunities that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

I haven't heard about teams being obliged to show any working units. I'm not sure it would be roadblock for Renault, but I doubt this is case.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:06 pm 
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What if Renault makes a good leap with its unused tokens and the next years tokens to bring them right to the front? Can we assume that RBR & TR rushed their decisions? That would be a bummer for them.


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