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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:11 pm 
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
silkjet wrote:
Looks like the Ferrari "resurgence" is over. Marchionne talking BS to the press- just the nature of Ferrari. Alonso was right to get out of that finger pointing environment.


We don't get post-quali coverage here. What was Marchionne saying?


I was referring to Marchionne's "fiat" order/statement earlier this week that Ferrari would win at Spain. Sorry for the confusion.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:16 pm 
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
lamo wrote:
Nico never really lead Russia 2014, he cut the first corner to take the lead and had to give it back


Er, wrong thread, and year, my friend? :P


I was referring to the picture above of Nico leading after t1 in Russia 2014 and not going on to win :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:17 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/564907/Ferrari_hints_at_new_deal_for_Raikkonen/

So Arrivabene thinks Raikkonen's current level is acceptable. When he had a car that could fight for the win in Bahrain, it was a bad start caused by driver error, as told by Arrivabene. In Russia, Bottas and Hamilton flew past him on the restart and a corner respectively, because Raikkonen is simply lazy and was sleeping! He IS lazy, because such errors happen to him race after race, and he just shrugs it off!

Any top team manager willing to put up with it deserves to get fired. I don't care how cool or popular or marketable Ferrari thinks Raikkonen is, he's a good, not great, overpaid, overhyped driver past his not-so-glorious-anyway prime.

I say kick out Arrivabene and Raikkonen. One seems out of his depth, acting emotional and fist pumping but getting Ferrari neither close on pace, and comprimising reliability, and the other driver just, blah. Can't qualify, can't defend, can't handle restarts. I think Vettel's level is falling because he doesn't have a proper push and is getting complacent at Ferrari.

Get the level-headed Allison or Brawn at the helm, and Ricciardo to push Vettel, and beat him if he can. I don't get the theory of "Don't hire Ricciardo it mighe upset Vettel". So what, if Ricciardo is better? Don't hire a potentially faster driver so that the slower driver isn't upset?

Pretty sure I read that they discovered Bahrain was a software issue, not a driver one. I agree Kimi could have possibly done better in Russia, but OTOH it was not a given and it was hardly a disastrous weekend.

I think you're overreacting here. Kimi out-qualified Vettel today which shows he's not completely past it. Ferrari do appear to have been improving but let's wait to hear where exactly it went wrong in Q3 before pointing fingers. You're accusing Arrivabene of acting emotionally but I'd say your post is showing that, too.

Not saying Arrivabene's perfect but there is a limit as to what he can do. Generally speaking, his cars and drivers have gotten the maximum points available to them at each weekend (barring accidents and reliability), which shows that until now at least they have been clearly the 2nd best car. And catching Mercedes was never going to be easy.

On SKY today they said that a driver would always choose speed over reliability, since it's much easier to work on the latter than the former. And they also said if you're losing, then you're not taking enough chances. For Arrivabene he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:23 pm 
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Good qualifying session.

Lewis shocked the hell out of me with his performances in Q2 and Q3. This was a Rosberg track and he dominated Rosberg in the last 2 sessions. Fantastic stuff really.

Ricciardo and Verstappen was the other matchup I was anticipating a lot and it did not disappoint with Verstappen ahead in the first 2 sessions and Ricciardo reassuring us of his superiority in Q3. I watched Max's post game and he was visibly annoyed. There could be fireworks at Redbull very soon.

Kimi outdid Vettel again, outqualifying him in 2 out of the last 3 races. Fantastic job from him, even though the Ferrari seems to be going backwards. I guess we can expect to see heads rolling soon. What a toxic environment that team is. Alonso was 100% correct to leave.

Mclaren needs to realize that their chassis is not what it's cracked up to be, if it was they would have qualified behind Redbull and Ferrari at the very least, but the Force india, Williams and the Toro Rosso are all faster cars and have better or equal chassis. The Honda power unit is not that bad, only 2kph slower than the factory Merc down the speed traps. Honda really needs to push for having Toro Rosso and Redbull as customers so Mclaren cannot hide behind the power unit anymore.

Looking forward to a pretty straight forward race. Will someone do something magical with the hard tire? Will turn 1 on lap 1 be accident free? Can Ricciardo maintain and get tot he podium or can Max beat him to it? We shall see...


Last edited by kleefton on Sat May 14, 2016 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/564907/Ferrari_hints_at_new_deal_for_Raikkonen/

So Arrivabene thinks Raikkonen's current level is acceptable. When he had a car that could fight for the win in Bahrain, it was a bad start caused by driver error, as told by Arrivabene. In Russia, Bottas and Hamilton flew past him on the restart and a corner respectively, because Raikkonen is simply lazy and was sleeping! He IS lazy, because such errors happen to him race after race, and he just shrugs it off!

Any top team manager willing to put up with it deserves to get fired. I don't care how cool or popular or marketable Ferrari thinks Raikkonen is, he's a good, not great, overpaid, overhyped driver past his not-so-glorious-anyway prime.

I say kick out Arrivabene and Raikkonen. One seems out of his depth, acting emotional and fist pumping but getting Ferrari neither close on pace, and comprimising reliability, and the other driver just, blah. Can't qualify, can't defend, can't handle restarts. I think Vettel's level is falling because he doesn't have a proper push and is getting complacent at Ferrari.

Get the level-headed Allison or Brawn at the helm, and Ricciardo to push Vettel, and beat him if he can. I don't get the theory of "Don't hire Ricciardo it mighe upset Vettel". So what, if Ricciardo is better? Don't hire a potentially faster driver so that the slower driver isn't upset?

Pretty sure I read that they discovered Bahrain was a software issue, not a driver one. I agree Kimi could have possibly done better in Russia, but OTOH it was not a given and it was hardly a disastrous weekend.

I think you're overreacting here. Kimi out-qualified Vettel today which shows he's not completely past it. Ferrari do appear to have been improving but let's wait to hear where exactly it went wrong in Q3 before pointing fingers. You're accusing Arrivabene of acting emotionally but I'd say your post is showing that, too.

Not saying Arrivabene's perfect but there is a limit as to what he can do. Generally speaking, his cars and drivers have gotten the maximum points available to them at each weekend (barring accidents and reliability), which shows that until now at least they have been clearly the 2nd best car. And catching Mercedes was never going to be easy.

On SKY today they said that a driver would always choose speed over reliability, since it's much easier to work on the latter than the former. And they also said if you're losing, then you're not taking enough chances. For Arrivabene he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


I'm a fan frustrated at his favourite team not getting it's act together. He's the team boss. I'm sure him having his emotions under control will help Ferrari more than mine will.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:31 pm 
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lamo wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
lamo wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton comfortably beating Rosberg in Spain. I am surprised! Lewis took 10 poles in the first 11 races of 2015, the one he missed was Spain. Its not a great track for him. Still 3-0 in qualifying against Rosberg this year, he is on fire over 1 lap again.

But it is all meaningless if he doesn't lead after turn 1, whoever does will win the race so long as something odd doesn't happen

How exactly is it 3-0 when we're in the fifth race of the season?


If you want to include Nico beating Lewis when he didn't take part 3-2. But if we are doing that, we better add 1999 to seasons Michael Schumacher lost to a team mate and Damon Hills beating of Ayrton Senna in 1994..

Lewis just said the same himself, "thats 3 out of 3 for me, so i'm pleased"

Then he's being very selective about which three count and the two that don't. He's entered five grands prix this year and he's started behind hid teammate in half of the ones that have been raced so far. And how is getting pole position working out for him anyway? I'm not sure what your point is at all? have they started giving championship points for pole position since I went to bed last night?

Damon Hill did beat Ayrton Senna in 1994, just like James Hunt beat Niki Lauda in 1976 and Mario Andretti beat Ronnie Peterson in 1978. Do we count 1999 as a season where Schumacher beat his teammate now?


My point is simple. Lewis has competed in three q3's, has 3 poles. Simple. Every time he has had the opportunity to take pole, he has.

Run with the 3-2 statistic if that works better for you.

Also, is Dan now 5-0 up on Max as Red Bull team mates? Given Max wasn't able to compete in the Red Bull for the first 4 races

Well, Alonso has only competed in one Q3 this season so what does that mean for his stats? He's only failed to get pole once this year!
5-0 up as teammates when they weren't teammates? How would that work?
If you're advocating a system like they had in the 80s where results were only taken from half of the races and the rest discarded, then that's fine but you can't invent results or ignore races where the outcome isn't favourable.
When I ask, "What's your point?", I mean that it's one thing to state a fact but does it have any significance? OK, Hamilton is good at claiming poles but, as I asked earlier, "Are they giving away points for that this year?" If he can't convert them into race wins this year, what's the use of having them? Rosberg won the pole positions trophy but it didn't mean a thing for the drivers' championship.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:35 pm 
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flyboy10, your argument doesn't hold


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:44 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:




Well, Alonso has only competed in one Q3 this season so what does that mean for his stats? He's only failed to get pole once this year!
5-0 up as teammates when they weren't teammates? How would that work?
If you're advocating a system like they had in the 80s where results were only taken from half of the races and the rest discarded, then that's fine but you can't invent results or ignore races where the outcome isn't favourable.
When I ask, "What's your point?", I mean that it's one thing to state a fact but does it have any significance? OK, Hamilton is good at claiming poles but, as I asked earlier, "Are they giving away points for that this year?" If he can't convert them into race wins this year, what's the use of having them? Rosberg won the pole positions trophy but it didn't mean a thing for the drivers' championship.


You are arguing about a non issue really. All lamo is saying is that every time Hamilton has had the chance this year he beat Rosberg in qualifying, that is why he said he is 3-0 and he's right. The times Rosberg scored his poles his teammate was not allowed to challenge him because of circumstances outside of his control. That is just the truth. There is no way around those facts. So please drop it.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Flyboy you sound really annoyed Hamilton got pole. Basically both times when Hamilton and Rosberg have taken part in Q3 Hamilton has won 3-0. That's when both drivers have there engines turned right up and go all out. That's the only part of Qualy that matter for the front runners.

Rosberg did beat Hamilton in the other 2 but only because Hamilton wasn't even on the track. Your clutching at straws.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:49 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Good qualifying session.

Lewis shocked the hell out of me with his performances in Q2 and Q3. This was a Rosberg track and he dominated Rosberg in the last 2 sessions. Fantastic stuff really.

Ricciardo and Verstappen was the other matchup I was anticipating a lot and it did not disappoint with Verstappen ahead in the first 2 sessions and Ricciardo reassuring us of his superiority in Q3. I watched Max's post game and he was visibly annoyed. There could be fireworks at Redbull very soon.

Kimi outdid Vettel again, outqualifying him in 2 out of the last 3 races. Fantastic job from him, even though the Ferrari seems to be going backwards. I guess we can expect to see heads rolling soon. What a toxic environment that team is. Alonso was 100% correct to leave.

Mclaren needs to realize that their chassis is not what it's cracked up to be, if it was they would have qualified behind Redbull and Ferrari at the very least, but the Force india, Williams and the Toro Rosso are all faster cars and have better or equal chassis. The Honda power unit is not that bad, only 2kph slower than the factory Merc down the speed traps. Honda really needs to push for having Toro Rosso and Redbull as customers so Mclaren cannot hide behind the power unit anymore.

Looking forward to a pretty straight forward race. Will someone do something magical with the hard tire? Will turn 1 on lap 1 be accident free? Can Ricciardo maintain and get tot he podium or can Max beat him to it? We shall see...

To be fair it's the press talking about heads rolling. I don't think I've seen any reports from Ferrari itself confirming this. So if there's a toxic environment external pressures need to bear a good deal of the blame for that.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:50 pm 
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Unparalleled wrote:
flyboy10, your argument doesn't hold

Do you mean my defence? I'm not making the argument. We have an argument (not only in this thread) that the statistics for this season's qualifying between the Mercedes drivers is 3:0 in Hamilton's favour, the argument being that he's only been able to compete for pole in three of the races. That is the argument that doesn't hold.
It's akin to saying that it's either 0:0 or 4:4 in races between the pair because Hamilton hasn't been able to win any of he races so we should only count ones that he has been able to win.
The facts are that five qualifying sessions this season have resulted in Hamilton being ahead of Rosberg on just three occasions, none of which has been converted into a race win. Which bit are you saying doesn't hold?


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:52 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Zoue wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/564907/Ferrari_hints_at_new_deal_for_Raikkonen/

So Arrivabene thinks Raikkonen's current level is acceptable. When he had a car that could fight for the win in Bahrain, it was a bad start caused by driver error, as told by Arrivabene. In Russia, Bottas and Hamilton flew past him on the restart and a corner respectively, because Raikkonen is simply lazy and was sleeping! He IS lazy, because such errors happen to him race after race, and he just shrugs it off!

Any top team manager willing to put up with it deserves to get fired. I don't care how cool or popular or marketable Ferrari thinks Raikkonen is, he's a good, not great, overpaid, overhyped driver past his not-so-glorious-anyway prime.

I say kick out Arrivabene and Raikkonen. One seems out of his depth, acting emotional and fist pumping but getting Ferrari neither close on pace, and comprimising reliability, and the other driver just, blah. Can't qualify, can't defend, can't handle restarts. I think Vettel's level is falling because he doesn't have a proper push and is getting complacent at Ferrari.

Get the level-headed Allison or Brawn at the helm, and Ricciardo to push Vettel, and beat him if he can. I don't get the theory of "Don't hire Ricciardo it mighe upset Vettel". So what, if Ricciardo is better? Don't hire a potentially faster driver so that the slower driver isn't upset?

Pretty sure I read that they discovered Bahrain was a software issue, not a driver one. I agree Kimi could have possibly done better in Russia, but OTOH it was not a given and it was hardly a disastrous weekend.

I think you're overreacting here. Kimi out-qualified Vettel today which shows he's not completely past it. Ferrari do appear to have been improving but let's wait to hear where exactly it went wrong in Q3 before pointing fingers. You're accusing Arrivabene of acting emotionally but I'd say your post is showing that, too.

Not saying Arrivabene's perfect but there is a limit as to what he can do. Generally speaking, his cars and drivers have gotten the maximum points available to them at each weekend (barring accidents and reliability), which shows that until now at least they have been clearly the 2nd best car. And catching Mercedes was never going to be easy.

On SKY today they said that a driver would always choose speed over reliability, since it's much easier to work on the latter than the former. And they also said if you're losing, then you're not taking enough chances. For Arrivabene he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


I'm a fan frustrated at his favourite team not getting it's act together. He's the team boss. I'm sure him having his emotions under control will help Ferrari more than mine will.

I understand you're frustrated. But hyperbole just dilutes your argument.

I'm not happy they have't caught up either. But I don't think changing personnel whenever it doesn't go as planned is necessarily the best way to go about things. People seem to forget that the ability to catch up is compromised thanks to the regulations. Ferrari aren't doing a bad job considering where they started. Let's not condemn them just yet


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:57 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Unparalleled wrote:
flyboy10, your argument doesn't hold

Do you mean my defence? I'm not making the argument. We have an argument (not only in this thread) that the statistics for this season's qualifying between the Mercedes drivers is 3:0 in Hamilton's favour, the argument being that he's only been able to compete for pole in three of the races. That is the argument that doesn't hold.
It's akin to saying that it's either 0:0 or 4:4 in races between the pair because Hamilton hasn't been able to win any of he races so we should only count ones that he has been able to win.
The facts are that five qualifying sessions this season have resulted in Hamilton being ahead of Rosberg on just three occasions, none of which has been converted into a race win. Which bit are you saying doesn't hold?

when comparing team mate performances it doesn't really make sense to include times when one or other couldn't compete. We're not talking just results here, but saying how well each stacked up against the other on equal terms. So if there have only been three races where that happened, then it makes sense to look only at those


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:05 pm 
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Hamilton_Jar wrote:
Flyboy you sound really annoyed Hamilton got pole. Basically both times when Hamilton and Rosberg have taken part in Q3 Hamilton has won 3-0. That's when both drivers have there engines turned right up and go all out. That's the only part of Qualy that matter for the front runners.

Rosberg did beat Hamilton in the other 2 but only because Hamilton wasn't even on the track. Your clutching at straws.

Hmmm, not sure how you work that out. I'm not at all bothered about Hamilton getting pole. He's failed to do anything useful with the others he's had this year so we'll have to wait and see if he can start winning tomorrow, if he can remember what it's like. I'm not sure how I'm clutching at straws. I'm not trying to make Hamilton's or Rosberg's results mean anything more than they do. I'll leave that to others on here. it sounds more to me that making sure that everyone knows that Hamilton's beating Rosberg because he never fails to get pole (except when he does and it can be blamed on something other than him or his ability and skill) is the behaviour of someone clutching at something to alleviate their insecurity.

We've spent the last two years listening to arguments that Rosberg's 12 poles in a season don't mean anything because the points are for the race and Rosberg can't convert pole to race wins. We've had every argument iunder the sun to prove that Rosberg isn't as good as Hamilton, because if he was he'd have beaten him in more races and won the WDC.

And now that the poor bloke has won the last seven races and beaten his teammate to the chequered flag in every race this season, we have to believe that he's somehow being beaten by his teammate who hasn't won a race since Austen last year.

My point is, you can rub it in over Rosberg fans when Hamilton is beating him like he did for the last two years, but some people try to do it when there's nothing to rub in. It sounds quite desperate.

We get it! Hamilton has put a healthy car on pole three times this season. Rosberg has put a healthy car on pole twice. All of the reasons why are pointless and there are no guarantees that it wouldn't have been that way if Hamilton had been given the chance to get to Q3 every time.

It's also pointless to get pole positions when they actually count for nothing in the WDC.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:06 pm 
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I don't think one should be too hasty writing off any possibility of Ferrari progress (or firing team members...).

Both Ferraris for whatever reason looked a complete handful towards the end of qualifying compared with the rest of the weekend. Maybe it was some convergence of conditions or a setup issue/error, but up until then things were fairly promising. This is somewhat backed up by their relative lack of progress in times from practice compared with other teams.

If the car looked consistently slow that would be worse, but looking at both car's qualifying laps I think it at least possible it was a blip of sorts and they have actually made decent progress.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:10 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
I don't think one should be too hasty writing off any possibility of Ferrari progress



Is not going to be enough and they are lucky the Renault engine is not that good.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:10 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Hamilton_Jar wrote:
Flyboy you sound really annoyed Hamilton got pole. Basically both times when Hamilton and Rosberg have taken part in Q3 Hamilton has won 3-0. That's when both drivers have there engines turned right up and go all out. That's the only part of Qualy that matter for the front runners.

Rosberg did beat Hamilton in the other 2 but only because Hamilton wasn't even on the track. Your clutching at straws.

Hmmm, not sure how you work that out. I'm not at all bothered about Hamilton getting pole. He's failed to do anything useful with the others he's had this year so we'll have to wait and see if he can start winning tomorrow, if he can remember what it's like. I'm not sure how I'm clutching at straws. I'm not trying to make Hamilton's or Rosberg's results mean anything more than they do. I'll leave that to others on here. it sounds more to me that making sure that everyone knows that Hamilton's beating Rosberg because he never fails to get pole (except when he does and it can be blamed on something other than him or his ability and skill) is the behaviour of someone clutching at something to alleviate their insecurity.

We've spent the last two years listening to arguments that Rosberg's 12 poles in a season don't mean anything because the points are for the race and Rosberg can't convert pole to race wins. We've had every argument iunder the sun to prove that Rosberg isn't as good as Hamilton, because if he was he'd have beaten him in more races and won the WDC.

And now that the poor bloke has won the last seven races and beaten his teammate to the chequered flag in every race this season, we have to believe that he's somehow being beaten by his teammate who hasn't won a race since Austen last year.

My point is, you can rub it in over Rosberg fans when Hamilton is beating him like he did for the last two years, but some people try to do it when there's nothing to rub in. It sounds quite desperate.

We get it! Hamilton has put a healthy car on pole three times this season. Rosberg has put a healthy car on pole twice. All of the reasons why are pointless and there are no guarantees that it wouldn't have been that way if Hamilton had been given the chance to get to Q3 every time.

It's also pointless to get pole positions when they actually count for nothing in the WDC.


You sound like someone who is hurting and talking a lot of nonsense. I don't know why because Rosberg has a big points advantage and used less engines so you should be really happy.
I'm sure your be the first on this forum tomorrow if Hamilton gets a bad start.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:12 pm 
flyboy10 wrote:
Unparalleled wrote:
flyboy10, your argument doesn't hold

Do you mean my defence? I'm not making the argument. We have an argument (not only in this thread) that the statistics for this season's qualifying between the Mercedes drivers is 3:0 in Hamilton's favour, the argument being that he's only been able to compete for pole in three of the races. That is the argument that doesn't hold.
It's akin to saying that it's either 0:0 or 4:4 in races between the pair because Hamilton hasn't been able to win any of he races so we should only count ones that he has been able to win.
The facts are that five qualifying sessions this season have resulted in Hamilton being ahead of Rosberg on just three occasions, none of which has been converted into a race win. Which bit are you saying doesn't hold?


No, Hamilton participated in the races.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
when comparing team mate performances it doesn't really make sense to include times when one or other couldn't compete. We're not talking just results here, but saying how well each stacked up against the other on equal terms. So if there have only been three races where that happened, then it makes sense to look only at those

It doesn't really make sense to compare two people with each other when one of them is better than the other or when one doesn't have the ability to beat the other one. On a philosophical level, it means nothing - and it means nothing that it means nothing.
When the championship is awarded on race wins, it's meaningless to make a point out of pole positions as much as it would be to say, "Yes, he's had three poles but look at the Q2 and Q1 results and the timings from FP1, FP2 and FP3.
What does it matter what anyone's doing in Q3? What does it matter what anyone's doing in the race and what does F1 matter really anyway? if F1 results matter, then it's race wins, points and championships that mean anything and that's what's in the record books.
Let's say it's 3:0 in championships to Hamilton vs Rosberg (or two nil if you don't want to count the time when they weren't teammates).


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:13 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Hamilton_Jar wrote:
Flyboy you sound really annoyed Hamilton got pole. Basically both times when Hamilton and Rosberg have taken part in Q3 Hamilton has won 3-0. That's when both drivers have there engines turned right up and go all out. That's the only part of Qualy that matter for the front runners.

Rosberg did beat Hamilton in the other 2 but only because Hamilton wasn't even on the track. Your clutching at straws.

Hmmm, not sure how you work that out. I'm not at all bothered about Hamilton getting pole. He's failed to do anything useful with the others he's had this year so we'll have to wait and see if he can start winning tomorrow, if he can remember what it's like. I'm not sure how I'm clutching at straws. I'm not trying to make Hamilton's or Rosberg's results mean anything more than they do. I'll leave that to others on here. it sounds more to me that making sure that everyone knows that Hamilton's beating Rosberg because he never fails to get pole (except when he does and it can be blamed on something other than him or his ability and skill) is the behaviour of someone clutching at something to alleviate their insecurity.

We've spent the last two years listening to arguments that Rosberg's 12 poles in a season don't mean anything because the points are for the race and Rosberg can't convert pole to race wins. We've had every argument iunder the sun to prove that Rosberg isn't as good as Hamilton, because if he was he'd have beaten him in more races and won the WDC.

And now that the poor bloke has won the last seven races and beaten his teammate to the chequered flag in every race this season, we have to believe that he's somehow being beaten by his teammate who hasn't won a race since Austen last year.

My point is, you can rub it in over Rosberg fans when Hamilton is beating him like he did for the last two years, but some people try to do it when there's nothing to rub in. It sounds quite desperate.

We get it! Hamilton has put a healthy car on pole three times this season. Rosberg has put a healthy car on pole twice. All of the reasons why are pointless and there are no guarantees that it wouldn't have been that way if Hamilton had been given the chance to get to Q3 every time.

It's also pointless to get pole positions when they actually count for nothing in the WDC.

Couldn't disagree with the bit in bold more tbh. Poles are in no way pointless, especially give the well-publicised difficulties with overtaking. If they were pointless drivers wouldn't expend as much energy as they do trying to get as high as possible up the grid


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:15 pm 
flyboy10 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
when comparing team mate performances it doesn't really make sense to include times when one or other couldn't compete. We're not talking just results here, but saying how well each stacked up against the other on equal terms. So if there have only been three races where that happened, then it makes sense to look only at those

It doesn't really make sense to compare two people with each other when one of them is better than the other or when one doesn't have the ability to beat the other one. On a philosophical level, it means nothing - and it means nothing that it means nothing.
When the championship is awarded on race wins, it's meaningless to make a point out of pole positions as much as it would be to say, "Yes, he's had three poles but look at the Q2 and Q1 results and the timings from FP1, FP2 and FP3.
What does it matter what anyone's doing in Q3? What does it matter what anyone's doing in the race and what does F1 matter really anyway? if F1 results matter, then it's race wins, points and championships that mean anything and that's what's in the record books.
Let's say it's 3:0 in championships to Hamilton vs Rosberg (or two nil if you don't want to count the time when they weren't teammates).


If you are a keen follower then all sessions where drivers are giving there maximum - count. That being Q3 and the race.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:16 pm 
I just made a thread about leading Mercedes driver after the first corners which highly correlated to poles.

Also to answer your questions, poles are working out well for Lewis. Nico has only ever won 4 races that Lewis started from pole that they both finished.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:19 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
when comparing team mate performances it doesn't really make sense to include times when one or other couldn't compete. We're not talking just results here, but saying how well each stacked up against the other on equal terms. So if there have only been three races where that happened, then it makes sense to look only at those

It doesn't really make sense to compare two people with each other when one of them is better than the other or when one doesn't have the ability to beat the other one. On a philosophical level, it means nothing - and it means nothing that it means nothing.
When the championship is awarded on race wins, it's meaningless to make a point out of pole positions as much as it would be to say, "Yes, he's had three poles but look at the Q2 and Q1 results and the timings from FP1, FP2 and FP3.
What does it matter what anyone's doing in Q3? What does it matter what anyone's doing in the race and what does F1 matter really anyway? if F1 results matter, then it's race wins, points and championships that mean anything and that's what's in the record books.
Let's say it's 3:0 in championships to Hamilton vs Rosberg (or two nil if you don't want to count the time when they weren't teammates).

But we're not talking on a philosophical level.

I don't get why you consider Q3 to be unimportant. Getting pole is a big deal in F1: this is hardly new. And beating your team mate has always been a measuring stick in F1, too. That's why people were hooked on how well Verstappen could do against Ricciardo and why people think Kimi's done well to beat Vettel today. It may not give points but it puts the faster driver in a better position for the race, which may well translate to points. So of course people are going to want to see how well drivers do in a head to head and it's only fair that occasions beyond a driver's control are discounted for that purpose.

And poles are in the record books too.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:31 pm 
A simple question for flyboy, who was the better qualifier for the first 4 races of 2016. Hamilton or Rosberg? Show your working. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:49 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Nico has only ever won 4 races that Lewis started from pole that they both finished.

This year only Nico has won twice (Australia and Bahrain).
Then they have Britain 2013, Monaco 2015, Austria 2015.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 4:05 pm 
ferdinand wrote:
lamo wrote:
Nico has only ever won 4 races that Lewis started from pole that they both finished.

This year only Nico has won twice (Australia and Bahrain).
Then they have Britain 2013, Monaco 2015, Austria 2015.


That's right, I had Britain in with mechanical issue/ DNF as the puncture robbed Hamilton of that one.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 4:13 pm 
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ferdinand wrote:
lamo wrote:
Nico has only ever won 4 races that Lewis started from pole that they both finished.

This year only Nico has won twice (Australia and Bahrain).
Then they have Britain 2013, Monaco 2015, Austria 2015.


And then out of those 3 you have dodgy pirelli's and some squiffy team orders to blame!

I thought it was quite clear Lewis was just talking about qualifying when both of them participated in Q3 with his '3 for 3' jibe.
Just a little psychological jabbing between the two. Very much looking forward to seeing them battle tomorrow. My money's on Lewis for the win but I can see Rosberg making it very difficult for him. Should be a good race at the front for once as long as both Merc's make it through the first corner unscathed.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 5:12 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/564907/Ferrari_hints_at_new_deal_for_Raikkonen/

So Arrivabene thinks Raikkonen's current level is acceptable. When he had a car that could fight for the win in Bahrain, it was a bad start caused by driver error, as told by Arrivabene. In Russia, Bottas and Hamilton flew past him on the restart and a corner respectively, because Raikkonen is simply lazy and was sleeping! He IS lazy, because such errors happen to him race after race, and he just shrugs it off!

Any top team manager willing to put up with it deserves to get fired. I don't care how cool or popular or marketable Ferrari thinks Raikkonen is, he's a good, not great, overpaid, overhyped driver past his not-so-glorious-anyway prime.

I say kick out Arrivabene and Raikkonen. One seems out of his depth, acting emotional and fist pumping but getting Ferrari neither close on pace, and comprimising reliability, and the other driver just, blah. Can't qualify, can't defend, can't handle restarts. I think Vettel's level is falling because he doesn't have a proper push and is getting complacent at Ferrari.

Get the level-headed Allison or Brawn at the helm, and Ricciardo to push Vettel, and beat him if he can. I don't get the theory of "Don't hire Ricciardo it mighe upset Vettel". So what, if Ricciardo is better? Don't hire a potentially faster driver so that the slower driver isn't upset?


:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

Kimi is doing fine. I do not see any reason why not to extend his contract. Vettel is one of the best in qualifying and he beat him 2 which is really impressive. Kimi can get podium tomorrow and finish ahead of Vettel to extend his lead. If Ferrari can't win at least 3 races like they did last year then obviously the team principal will be in firing line. There is nothing wrong in the driver lineup.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 5:13 pm 
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Lewis "had a problem with something on the car" on friday. Would be interesting to know what that something was. Transformed the car for sat. Hmmmm?


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 5:48 pm 
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I am beginning to think Vetel's "head has gone" and he is regretting his move to Ferrari.
I know they are the team likely to beat Merc, but Judging by the stream of obscenities that tends to issue from Seb, and his seeming variable ability sometimes, I wonder if he is happy with things.

At Red Bull, even when he did not win he did not have to make excuses for not winning, Ferrari seem to be a major blame culture and he needs both hands to cover his seat.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 6:43 pm 
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moby wrote:
I am beginning to think Vetel's "head has gone" and he is regretting his move to Ferrari.
I know they are the team likely to beat Merc, but Judging by the stream of obscenities that tends to issue from Seb, and his seeming variable ability sometimes, I wonder if he is happy with things.

At Red Bull, even when he did not win he did not have to make excuses for not winning, Ferrari seem to be a major blame culture and he needs both hands to cover his seat.

I think some of that may be down to the fact that currently winning is somewhat out of his hands. At Red Bull he usually had a car capable of winning, so when he didn't he could just focus on doing better next time. Now it must be quite frustrating as no matter what they do they can't get close enough to Mercedes, while the expectation is that they do


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 7:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
GZed wrote:
Fantastic Dani Ric. I few more like that and we'll be seeing (and hearing) Max's toys being thrown out of the play pen. Can't wait.

Absolutely ridiculous comment. For his first weekend and qualifying in the car, Verstappen did very well to come so close to the top qualifier that Ricciardo is. Verstappen has every reason to be very pleased with this performance.

Verstappen obviously wasn't pleased with his performance, going by the one interview I saw - a lot of talk about not being 100% comfortable with the car yet and saying he always expected a challenge from Ricciardo, but he seemed pretty subdued about it. Coming from the man who once said that in an ordinary race he should be miles ahead of his teammate, I think he was expecting to be a little closer.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 9:52 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Kimi much better this season it would seem.

Better than what? His own performance last season? That's not setting the bar too high.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 9:53 pm 
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lamo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton has the speed, needs to keep calm, he was on for a 22.00



:smug:

1m22.000

Pretty impressive call!


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:07 pm 
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lamo wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
lamo wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton comfortably beating Rosberg in Spain. I am surprised! Lewis took 10 poles in the first 11 races of 2015, the one he missed was Spain. Its not a great track for him. Still 3-0 in qualifying against Rosberg this year, he is on fire over 1 lap again.

But it is all meaningless if he doesn't lead after turn 1, whoever does will win the race so long as something odd doesn't happen

How exactly is it 3-0 when we're in the fifth race of the season?


If you want to include Nico beating Lewis when he didn't take part 3-2. But if we are doing that, we better add 1999 to seasons Michael Schumacher lost to a team mate and Damon Hills beating of Ayrton Senna in 1994..

Lewis just said the same himself, "thats 3 out of 3 for me, so i'm pleased"

Then he's being very selective about which three count and the two that don't. He's entered five grands prix this year and he's started behind hid teammate in half of the ones that have been raced so far. And how is getting pole position working out for him anyway? I'm not sure what your point is at all? have they started giving championship points for pole position since I went to bed last night?

Damon Hill did beat Ayrton Senna in 1994, just like James Hunt beat Niki Lauda in 1976 and Mario Andretti beat Ronnie Peterson in 1978. Do we count 1999 as a season where Schumacher beat his teammate now?


My point is simple. Lewis has competed in three q3's, has 3 poles. Simple. Every time he has had the opportunity to take pole, he has.

Run with the 3-2 statistic if that works better for you.

Also, is Dan now 5-0 up on Max as Red Bull team mates? Given Max wasn't able to compete in the Red Bull for the first 4 races

Yeah that seems to be how the logic works :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:18 pm 
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Unparalleled wrote:
flyboy10, your argument doesn't hold

His argument is disappointing that's what it is, counting qualifying were Hamilton has a busted engine :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:26 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Hamilton_Jar wrote:
Flyboy you sound really annoyed Hamilton got pole. Basically both times when Hamilton and Rosberg have taken part in Q3 Hamilton has won 3-0. That's when both drivers have there engines turned right up and go all out. That's the only part of Qualy that matter for the front runners.

Rosberg did beat Hamilton in the other 2 but only because Hamilton wasn't even on the track. Your clutching at straws.

Hmmm, not sure how you work that out. I'm not at all bothered about Hamilton getting pole. He's failed to do anything useful with the others he's had this year so we'll have to wait and see if he can start winning tomorrow, if he can remember what it's like. I'm not sure how I'm clutching at straws. I'm not trying to make Hamilton's or Rosberg's results mean anything more than they do. I'll leave that to others on here. it sounds more to me that making sure that everyone knows that Hamilton's beating Rosberg because he never fails to get pole (except when he does and it can be blamed on something other than him or his ability and skill) is the behaviour of someone clutching at something to alleviate their insecurity.

We've spent the last two years listening to arguments that Rosberg's 12 poles in a season don't mean anything because the points are for the race and Rosberg can't convert pole to race wins. We've had every argument iunder the sun to prove that Rosberg isn't as good as Hamilton, because if he was he'd have beaten him in more races and won the WDC.

And now that the poor bloke has won the last seven races and beaten his teammate to the chequered flag in every race this season, we have to believe that he's somehow being beaten by his teammate who hasn't won a race since Austen last year.

My point is, you can rub it in over Rosberg fans when Hamilton is beating him like he did for the last two years, but some people try to do it when there's nothing to rub in. It sounds quite desperate.

We get it! Hamilton has put a healthy car on pole three times this season. Rosberg has put a healthy car on pole twice. All of the reasons why are pointless and there are no guarantees that it wouldn't have been that way if Hamilton had been given the chance to get to Q3 every time.

It's also pointless to get pole positions when they actually count for nothing in the WDC.

These last 2 seasons must have been really hard for you, are you sure you've not been sneaking into Hamilton's garage this year? ;)

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:34 pm 
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moby wrote:
I am beginning to think Vetel's "head has gone" and he is regretting his move to Ferrari.
I know they are the team likely to beat Merc, but Judging by the stream of obscenities that tends to issue from Seb, and his seeming variable ability sometimes, I wonder if he is happy with things.

At Red Bull, even when he did not win he did not have to make excuses for not winning, Ferrari seem to be a major blame culture and he needs both hands to cover his seat.

Yes interesting and I can only put that down to pressure, the honeymoon period is over now at Ferrari and now he's seeing what a pressure cauldron it is.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:28 am 
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moby wrote:
I am beginning to think Vetel's "head has gone" and he is regretting his move to Ferrari.
I know they are the team likely to beat Merc, but Judging by the stream of obscenities that tends to issue from Seb, and his seeming variable ability sometimes, I wonder if he is happy with things.

At Red Bull, even when he did not win he did not have to make excuses for not winning, Ferrari seem to be a major blame culture and he needs both hands to cover his seat.


BS. It is not a disaster. Even Mercedes last year in Singapore could not get tyres to work for some reason. Ferrari lacked the grip with increase in temperature. Usually they are more competitive I thought in high temperature but it was an off day. They can still finish ahead of RBR.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:52 am 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
when comparing team mate performances it doesn't really make sense to include times when one or other couldn't compete. We're not talking just results here, but saying how well each stacked up against the other on equal terms. So if there have only been three races where that happened, then it makes sense to look only at those

It doesn't really make sense to compare two people with each other when one of them is better than the other or when one doesn't have the ability to beat the other one. On a philosophical level, it means nothing - and it means nothing that it means nothing.
When the championship is awarded on race wins, it's meaningless to make a point out of pole positions as much as it would be to say, "Yes, he's had three poles but look at the Q2 and Q1 results and the timings from FP1, FP2 and FP3.
What does it matter what anyone's doing in Q3? What does it matter what anyone's doing in the race and what does F1 matter really anyway? if F1 results matter, then it's race wins, points and championships that mean anything and that's what's in the record books.
Let's say it's 3:0 in championships to Hamilton vs Rosberg (or two nil if you don't want to count the time when they weren't teammates).


You must really love Lewis Hamilton considering the lengths to which you go to ensure his statistics are articulated correctly.


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