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 Post subject: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 4:30 pm 
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I recall a thread a couple of years ago on here where somebody provided an interesting (to me at least) theory regarding Jacques in F1 and his early-career success being symied by relationship with his father, in that his main goal was to do better than his father ever managed and once he'd managed to win World Championshionship his motivation.. faded.

Just for the sake of beating a nearly two-decade-old horse, perhaps somebody (or somebodies) can explain why Villeneuve entered F1 with such flash and then.. gradually faded out without much more to show.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 4:57 pm 
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I don't think Villenueve really faded so much as the formula developed away from him. I also think his first two years are slightly exaggerated by situation.

In 96 he had by far the fastest car and a team mate that, in a way, was never really proven. I don't think Hill was ever that incredible for out an out speed although he definitely had a strong character.

In 97 he again had by far the fastest/most reliable car and he barely won the championship. The gap between him and Frentzen was greatly exaggerated and whilst he won 7 races luck played a big part in 6 of them. Frentzen on the other hand was incredibly unlucky in the first half of the season. With luck evened out the gap between them come the end of the season would have been about 15 points rather than 39. In 1998 Villenueve/Frentzen were about equal and I think that probably is illustrative of JV's true ability.

99 and 00 were IMO Villenueve's best years where he put in some strong performances and in 01 and 02 he was comfortably better than Panis.

I do think 03 hurt JV for a long time. Remember before the season he made some pretty disparaging comments about Button and I think Villenueve expected to beat Button comfortably. When that didn't happen I think it probably put a big dent in his confidence and he never really seemed to recover from there.

He couldn't get the hang of the Renault was behind Massa for Sauber but did look pretty comparable to Heidfeld in 06. It would have been interesting to see what he could have done with the BMW in 07 and 08. I think the banning of traction control would have suited hi style and he would have been a semi regular podium finisher.

So for me - JV was a driver of a caliber similar to Frentzen whose early career circumstances contrived to make him look top draw.

Edit - To add I think Villenueve gets an unfair rap about leaving Williams for BAR. Remember in 98 Williams had no works deal and were heading for the midfield whilst BAR offered an opportunity to make himself a legend and work with his best mate. I think it's unfair when people say it was "all about the money"


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 5:40 pm 
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Honestly I just never thought he was that great to start with. He was quick for sure but not in the same league as most of F1's other world champions, and I feel his ability was flattered by having a vastly superior car for the first two years of his career.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:06 pm 
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He was surely one of the luckiest WDC there was, just look at the races he won

Brazil - restarted after he went off at the first corner
Argentina - Probably the only win where he didn't get lucky.
Spain - Panis much faster but never got any blue flags.
Silverstone - Hakkinen and Schumacher were in front but had technical DNF.
Hungary - Damon's technical problem on the last lap
Austria - Hakkinen retired from the lead
Luxemburg - Both McLarens retire from in front of him.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:29 pm 
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Of all the things I don't understand when people judge a driver, the most difficult to fathom is how they decide when a driver is great and when it was just the car.
In the specific case of Villeneuve - who I presume had the best ever indycar in 1995 and was lucky to win both the indy 500 by completing an astonishing 505 miles as well as the series championship - how can anyone say how good the Williams was that year and what do they base it on?
Also does this discount any achievements of current Mercedes drivers or of Senna/Prost in 1988?


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:37 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Of all the things I don't understand when people judge a driver, the most difficult to fathom is how they decide when a driver is great and when it was just the car.
In the specific case of Villeneuve - who I presume had the best ever indycar in 1995 and was lucky to win both the indy 500 by completing an astonishing 505 miles as well as the series championship - how can anyone say how good the Williams was that year and what do they base it on?
Also does this discount any achievements of current Mercedes drivers or of Senna/Prost in 1988?



Being Indy 500 champion doesn't guarantee you will be an elite F1 driver and vice versa


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:40 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
He was surely one of the luckiest WDC there was, just look at the races he won

Brazil - restarted after he went off at the first corner
Argentina - Probably the only win where he didn't get lucky.
Spain - Panis much faster but never got any blue flags.
Silverstone - Hakkinen and Schumacher were in front but had technical DNF.
Hungary - Damon's technical problem on the last lap
Austria - Hakkinen retired from the lead
Luxemburg - Both McLarens retire from in front of him.


In Argentina everybody else in the top 5 retired. Villeneuve was ill and had no pace during the race. He only just held off Irvine.

Schumacher, Frentzen and Pains would have son that race if they hadn't retired. Probably anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:44 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
Of all the things I don't understand when people judge a driver, the most difficult to fathom is how they decide when a driver is great and when it was just the car.
In the specific case of Villeneuve - who I presume had the best ever indycar in 1995 and was lucky to win both the indy 500 by completing an astonishing 505 miles as well as the series championship - how can anyone say how good the Williams was that year and what do they base it on?
Also does this discount any achievements of current Mercedes drivers or of Senna/Prost in 1988?



Being Indy 500 champion doesn't guarantee you will be an elite F1 driver and vice versa

No, I'm just saying in terms of talent if he was as bad a driver as some people always like to make out, then his indy successes (like driving five miles further than everyone else in the race) must have been down to the car also. Isn't that the logical conclusion?


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:51 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
Of all the things I don't understand when people judge a driver, the most difficult to fathom is how they decide when a driver is great and when it was just the car.
In the specific case of Villeneuve - who I presume had the best ever indycar in 1995 and was lucky to win both the indy 500 by completing an astonishing 505 miles as well as the series championship - how can anyone say how good the Williams was that year and what do they base it on?
Also does this discount any achievements of current Mercedes drivers or of Senna/Prost in 1988?



Being Indy 500 champion doesn't guarantee you will be an elite F1 driver and vice versa

No, I'm just saying in terms of talent if he was as bad a driver as some people always like to make out, then his indy successes (like driving five miles further than everyone else in the race) must have been down to the car also. Isn't that the logical conclusion?


Different formula, potentially different quality of fields?

And nobody is saying JV was bad. Just not as good as most WDC. A Frentzen level driver IMO and I don't consider that bad at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 9:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think Villenueve really faded so much as the formula developed away from him. I also think his first two years are slightly exaggerated by situation.

In 96 he had by far the fastest car and a team mate that, in a way, was never really proven. I don't think Hill was ever that incredible for out an out speed although he definitely had a strong character.

In 97 he again had by far the fastest/most reliable car and he barely won the championship. The gap between him and Frentzen was greatly exaggerated and whilst he won 7 races luck played a big part in 6 of them. Frentzen on the other hand was incredibly unlucky in the first half of the season. With luck evened out the gap between them come the end of the season would have been about 15 points rather than 39. In 1998 Villenueve/Frentzen were about equal and I think that probably is illustrative of JV's true ability.

99 and 00 were IMO Villenueve's best years where he put in some strong performances and in 01 and 02 he was comfortably better than Panis.

I do think 03 hurt JV for a long time. Remember before the season he made some pretty disparaging comments about Button and I think Villenueve expected to beat Button comfortably. When that didn't happen I think it probably put a big dent in his confidence and he never really seemed to recover from there.

He couldn't get the hang of the Renault was behind Massa for Sauber but did look pretty comparable to Heidfeld in 06. It would have been interesting to see what he could have done with the BMW in 07 and 08. I think the banning of traction control would have suited hi style and he would have been a semi regular podium finisher.

So for me - JV was a driver of a caliber similar to Frentzen whose early career circumstances contrived to make him look top draw.

Edit - To add I think Villenueve gets an unfair rap about leaving Williams for BAR. Remember in 98 Williams had no works deal and were heading for the midfield whilst BAR offered an opportunity to make himself a legend and work with his best mate. I think it's unfair when people say it was "all about the money"

That's not right either. Once he captured the WDC for himself, JV simply went after the money first and foremost and THOUGHT that because of the budget the team had they would work things out within 2-3 seasons but instead, things never improved and he lost motivation for a bit. One thing a lot of people don't know is that the death of the Marshal at Albert Park in 2001 weighed on him and he dealt with it on his own for years, and then he moved on to other teams that were even further off the pace ad was never able to get back to the top.

In the early days however, he was as good as some of the all-time greats. Without question of of the fastest guys I have ever seen in person. In C.A.R.T. he was fast, smooth, precise and as cool as the other side of the pillow! R.I.P. Stewart Scott!

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:40 pm 
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Jacques indeed had an issue with his father. And he does not have him in a good memory. See the interviews in which he is asked about Gilles, and never gives the admiring answer to the journo. It's a painful story of which Jacques occasionally spoke, in which he was treated very harsh by the commanding father, which left the family never to see them again in the last 2 years of his life.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 12:12 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Jacques indeed had an issue with his father. And he does not have him in a good memory. See the interviews in which he is asked about Gilles, and never gives the admiring answer to the journo. It's a painful story of which Jacques occasionally spoke, in which he was treated very harsh by the commanding father, which left the family never to see them again in the last 2 years of his life.


Didn't GV live on a boat in Monaco with his new woman whilst JV lived in Monaco and there never saw one another for 2 years. Pretty sad end. He doesn't sound like a good person to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 1:32 am 
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I started following Jacques when he had hair down to his butt and was racing in Formula Atlantic. I have watched every race he ever participated in. In Formula Atlantic, IMO he was beaten by his team mate. But he did enough, and his name got him a ride in CART. He got on a very good team, but at that time there were many other teams just as good. But somehow he developed overnight and was immediately as fast as anyone. Combine that with his intelligence (yes, he's very smart) and it was a winning formula. Having Craig Pollock as his manager was also beneficial.

For his Indy 500 win, he drove like a demon, making all the right moves to gain back those lost laps. It wasn't just luck alone that gained him this famous win, he earned it the hard way with determination, smarts, and insanely talented driving.

Do not ignore that on his very first Formula One race he dominated, and should have won. But an oil leak forced him to back off, allowing Hill to pass him and secure the win. That is how good he was.

But once he won his title, everything changed, his sense of entitlement grew into gargantuan proportions and he went after the money. For quite a few years he had the second highest salary, eclipsed only by Michael Schumacher.

Jacques Villeneuve had the talent, smarts, and experience to become one of the all time greats. But his attitude got in the way. If he had the attitude and motivation of Schumacher or Vettel, many people would have a very different perception of the man and the history books would be very different.

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https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/b5/e7/44b5e77125cb7aeb29542e9c552c8dda.jpg

As far as his relationship with his father, that was very complicated and no doubt still painful for Jacques on many levels. Gilles provided for his family, they never wanted. But he was a playboy Formula One driver, living the high life, and becoming a revered saint by his death. You can't compete against a martyr or saint. His father's name was very beneficial in allowing him to get rides, but it was also a double edged sword because even winning something his father never did, he was not as respected or adored.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:14 pm 
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Great responses by all. Thanks! :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:40 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think Villenueve really faded so much as the formula developed away from him. I also think his first two years are slightly exaggerated by situation.

In 96 he had by far the fastest car and a team mate that, in a way, was never really proven. I don't think Hill was ever that incredible for out an out speed although he definitely had a strong character.


Hill was actually quite incredible for out-and-out speed - in fact, that and consistency was all he had, really. Patrick Head found his inability/unwillingness to overtake frustrating, saying it was a case of "will he or won't he?"

I really wish Frank Williams had given Mika Hakkinen the race seat but he went with his engineers and chose Hill.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:08 pm 
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Arbitrarius wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think Villenueve really faded so much as the formula developed away from him. I also think his first two years are slightly exaggerated by situation.

In 96 he had by far the fastest car and a team mate that, in a way, was never really proven. I don't think Hill was ever that incredible for out an out speed although he definitely had a strong character.


Hill was actually quite incredible for out-and-out speed - in fact, that and consistency was all he had, really. Patrick Head found his inability/unwillingness to overtake frustrating, saying it was a case of "will he or won't he?"

I really wish Frank Williams had given Mika Hakkinen the race seat but he went with his engineers and chose Hill.


I agree that many under rate Hill. If but for a *cough cough* coming together with a certain driver in a red car, he would have won the WDC two years in a row, nothing to sneeze at.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:25 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Arbitrarius wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think Villenueve really faded so much as the formula developed away from him. I also think his first two years are slightly exaggerated by situation.

In 96 he had by far the fastest car and a team mate that, in a way, was never really proven. I don't think Hill was ever that incredible for out an out speed although he definitely had a strong character.


Hill was actually quite incredible for out-and-out speed - in fact, that and consistency was all he had, really. Patrick Head found his inability/unwillingness to overtake frustrating, saying it was a case of "will he or won't he?"

I really wish Frank Williams had given Mika Hakkinen the race seat but he went with his engineers and chose Hill.


I agree that many under rate Hill. If but for a *cough cough* coming together with a certain driver in a red car, he would have won the WDC two years in a row, nothing to sneeze at.


When did Hill collide with a Ferrari?


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:41 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Arbitrarius wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think Villenueve really faded so much as the formula developed away from him. I also think his first two years are slightly exaggerated by situation.

In 96 he had by far the fastest car and a team mate that, in a way, was never really proven. I don't think Hill was ever that incredible for out an out speed although he definitely had a strong character.


Hill was actually quite incredible for out-and-out speed - in fact, that and consistency was all he had, really. Patrick Head found his inability/unwillingness to overtake frustrating, saying it was a case of "will he or won't he?"

I really wish Frank Williams had given Mika Hakkinen the race seat but he went with his engineers and chose Hill.


I agree that many under rate Hill. If but for a *cough cough* coming together with a certain driver in a red car, he would have won the WDC two years in a row, nothing to sneeze at.


When did Hill collide with a Ferrari?

In the car park, he hurt his elbow.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:01 pm 
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I've always found it ironic that the BAR team came into the sport in 1999 boasting about how it was going win its first race (and perhaps the title, can't quite remember), but scored zero points all season. A decade later, effectively the same team under a new guise, actually achieved those goals.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:12 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I started following Jacques when he had hair down to his butt and was racing in Formula Atlantic. I have watched every race he ever participated in. In Formula Atlantic, IMO he was beaten by his team mate. But he did enough, and his name got him a ride in CART. He got on a very good team, but at that time there were many other teams just as good. But somehow he developed overnight and was immediately as fast as anyone. Combine that with his intelligence (yes, he's very smart) and it was a winning formula. Having Craig Pollock as his manager was also beneficial.

For his Indy 500 win, he drove like a demon, making all the right moves to gain back those lost laps. It wasn't just luck alone that gained him this famous win, he earned it the hard way with determination, smarts, and insanely talented driving.

Do not ignore that on his very first Formula One race he dominated, and should have won. But an oil leak forced him to back off, allowing Hill to pass him and secure the win. That is how good he was.

But once he won his title, everything changed, his sense of entitlement grew into gargantuan proportions and he went after the money. For quite a few years he had the second highest salary, eclipsed only by Michael Schumacher.

Jacques Villeneuve had the talent, smarts, and experience to become one of the all time greats. But his attitude got in the way. If he had the attitude and motivation of Schumacher or Vettel, many people would have a very different perception of the man and the history books would be very different.

Image
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/b5/e7/44b5e77125cb7aeb29542e9c552c8dda.jpg

As far as his relationship with his father, that was very complicated and no doubt still painful for Jacques on many levels. Gilles provided for his family, they never wanted. But he was a playboy Formula One driver, living the high life, and becoming a revered saint by his death. You can't compete against a martyr or saint. His father's name was very beneficial in allowing him to get rides, but it was also a double edged sword because even winning something his father never did, he was not as respected or adored.

Here here!

It's incredible how dying at a young age creates such a mystical sense of Legend & Lore. Gilles, though an excellent driver with insane bravado and great speed, lacked consistency. If he was as great as his legend suggests, he'd have a much more significant statistic in the history books than his horrific, premature death. Sadly he had the talent, but as you pointed out so poignantly, his playboy lifestyle was quite fast and he and a few others in F1 at the time were competing off the track just as much as they were on it. There's no telling how signifiant a role his lifestyle played on his on-tack efforts.

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ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:50 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I started following Jacques when he had hair down to his butt and was racing in Formula Atlantic. I have watched every race he ever participated in. In Formula Atlantic, IMO he was beaten by his team mate. But he did enough, and his name got him a ride in CART. He got on a very good team, but at that time there were many other teams just as good. But somehow he developed overnight and was immediately as fast as anyone. Combine that with his intelligence (yes, he's very smart) and it was a winning formula. Having Craig Pollock as his manager was also beneficial.

For his Indy 500 win, he drove like a demon, making all the right moves to gain back those lost laps. It wasn't just luck alone that gained him this famous win, he earned it the hard way with determination, smarts, and insanely talented driving.

Do not ignore that on his very first Formula One race he dominated, and should have won. But an oil leak forced him to back off, allowing Hill to pass him and secure the win. That is how good he was.

But once he won his title, everything changed, his sense of entitlement grew into gargantuan proportions and he went after the money. For quite a few years he had the second highest salary, eclipsed only by Michael Schumacher.

Jacques Villeneuve had the talent, smarts, and experience to become one of the all time greats. But his attitude got in the way. If he had the attitude and motivation of Schumacher or Vettel, many people would have a very different perception of the man and the history books would be very different.

Image
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/b5/e7/44b5e77125cb7aeb29542e9c552c8dda.jpg

As far as his relationship with his father, that was very complicated and no doubt still painful for Jacques on many levels. Gilles provided for his family, they never wanted. But he was a playboy Formula One driver, living the high life, and becoming a revered saint by his death. You can't compete against a martyr or saint. His father's name was very beneficial in allowing him to get rides, but it was also a double edged sword because even winning something his father never did, he was not as respected or adored.

Here here!

It's incredible how dying at a young age creates such a mystical sense of Legend & Lore. Gilles, though an excellent driver with insane bravado and great speed, lacked consistency. If he was as great as his legend suggests, he'd have a much more significant statistic in the history books than his horrific, premature death. Sadly he had the talent, but as you pointed out so poignantly, his playboy lifestyle was quite fast and he and a few others in F1 at the time were competing off the track just as much as they were on it. There's no telling how signifiant a role his lifestyle played on his on-tack efforts.


He was consistent enough to come very close to winning a WDC in only his second proper season. That's despite having to play No.2 to his more experienced team mate. Gilles was as good as Scheckter by only his second season. That's pretty impressive. I think its unfair judge him by modern day standards where the drivers are incredibly consistent and make much fewer mistakes.

Not one of the greatest ever but one of the greatest non champions.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 8:13 am 
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There once was a great article on Jacques Villeneuve on the website F1Rejects. They were also quite positive on his performance in his BAR years, although even they had to admit that his career wasn't as great as it could be.

I personally always wondered how his career would have ended if BAR didn't purchase Tyrrell, which would alter the course of his career greatly. Maybe a drive at Ferrari, McLaren or a pro-longed stay at Williams would have given him a more glorious career in Formula 1 after 1998. Just four podiums after his world title, there was far more potential in Villeneuve than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:37 pm 
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I think it's clear that RBR picked a winner in Spain and got 'lucky' that MV won - but if they promote one driver against another - especially against the driver who has done better - then that's just stupid. If they do it again - then Dan should leave - even paying out an option would be a pittance given his salary and only one year option status.

Naturally - if DR is driving for RBR, I hope they get the regs right and have a good car - but if not, karma suggests RBR should have a DOG of a car in 2017

It's certainly time that Marko was sacked and there was some balance in the team - if only RBR cared about honesty, integrity and fairness


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:40 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
I think it's clear that RBR picked a winner in Spain and got 'lucky' that MV won - but if they promote one driver against another - especially against the driver who has done better - then that's just stupid. If they do it again - then Dan should leave - even paying out an option would be a pittance given his salary and only one year option status.

Naturally - if DR is driving for RBR, I hope they get the regs right and have a good car - but if not, karma suggests RBR should have a DOG of a car in 2017

It's certainly time that Marko was sacked and there was some balance in the team - if only RBR cared about honesty, integrity and fairness


Wrong thread?


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 12:34 am 
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GPG wrote:
There once was a great article on Jacques Villeneuve on the website F1Rejects. They were also quite positive on his performance in his BAR years, although even they had to admit that his career wasn't as great as it could be.

I personally always wondered how his career would have ended if BAR didn't purchase Tyrrell, which would alter the course of his career greatly. Maybe a drive at Ferrari, McLaren or a pro-longed stay at Williams would have given him a more glorious career in Formula 1 after 1998. Just four podiums after his world title, there was far more potential in Villeneuve than that.


Looking at the seats which came up shortly after '98, it's hard to see him ending up in a top team. I doubt he'd have been second fiddle in Michael's team, or that McLaren would have picked him over Kimi. Had he stuck around at Williams a bit longer, he might have had some success in the early 00s. He would have had to have been good enough to keep Button and Montoya out of that seat though.

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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I started following Jacques when he had hair down to his butt and was racing in Formula Atlantic. I have watched every race he ever participated in. In Formula Atlantic, IMO he was beaten by his team mate. But he did enough, and his name got him a ride in CART. He got on a very good team, but at that time there were many other teams just as good. But somehow he developed overnight and was immediately as fast as anyone. Combine that with his intelligence (yes, he's very smart) and it was a winning formula. Having Craig Pollock as his manager was also beneficial.

For his Indy 500 win, he drove like a demon, making all the right moves to gain back those lost laps. It wasn't just luck alone that gained him this famous win, he earned it the hard way with determination, smarts, and insanely talented driving.

Do not ignore that on his very first Formula One race he dominated, and should have won. But an oil leak forced him to back off, allowing Hill to pass him and secure the win. That is how good he was.

But once he won his title, everything changed, his sense of entitlement grew into gargantuan proportions and he went after the money. For quite a few years he had the second highest salary, eclipsed only by Michael Schumacher.

Jacques Villeneuve had the talent, smarts, and experience to become one of the all time greats. But his attitude got in the way. If he had the attitude and motivation of Schumacher or Vettel, many people would have a very different perception of the man and the history books would be very different.

Image
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/b5/e7/44b5e77125cb7aeb29542e9c552c8dda.jpg

As far as his relationship with his father, that was very complicated and no doubt still painful for Jacques on many levels. Gilles provided for his family, they never wanted. But he was a playboy Formula One driver, living the high life, and becoming a revered saint by his death. You can't compete against a martyr or saint. His father's name was very beneficial in allowing him to get rides, but it was also a double edged sword because even winning something his father never did, he was not as respected or adored.

Here here!

It's incredible how dying at a young age creates such a mystical sense of Legend & Lore. Gilles, though an excellent driver with insane bravado and great speed, lacked consistency. If he was as great as his legend suggests, he'd have a much more significant statistic in the history books than his horrific, premature death. Sadly he had the talent, but as you pointed out so poignantly, his playboy lifestyle was quite fast and he and a few others in F1 at the time were competing off the track just as much as they were on it. There's no telling how signifiant a role his lifestyle played on his on-tack efforts.


He was consistent enough to come very close to winning a WDC in only his second proper season. That's despite having to play No.2 to his more experienced team mate. Gilles was as good as Scheckter by only his second season. That's pretty impressive. I think its unfair judge him by modern day standards where the drivers are incredibly consistent and make much fewer mistakes.

Not one of the greatest ever but one of the greatest non champions.

He didn't have to play number two at the start of the season. Running into the back of a competitor at Belgium in 1979 cost him points that would have put him ahead of Scheckter by Monaco, the cut off point to decide who was the number one driver. Gilles was very entertaining to watch but he had so many crashes in his F1 career. You could almost predict it to the point of tuning in to a grand prix to watch Villeneuve crash. For me, he didn't have a season where he ever looked like being consistent enough to be a WDC. He could have done it in 1982 but he was having episodes of losing control of the car way before Zolder. He spun in the race at Long Beach IIRC in that car with the double rear wing and forced himself off the track in Brazil while under pressure from Rosberg and Piquet.


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 Post subject: Re: Jacques query
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:04 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
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flyboy10 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I started following Jacques when he had hair down to his butt and was racing in Formula Atlantic. I have watched every race he ever participated in. In Formula Atlantic, IMO he was beaten by his team mate. But he did enough, and his name got him a ride in CART. He got on a very good team, but at that time there were many other teams just as good. But somehow he developed overnight and was immediately as fast as anyone. Combine that with his intelligence (yes, he's very smart) and it was a winning formula. Having Craig Pollock as his manager was also beneficial.

For his Indy 500 win, he drove like a demon, making all the right moves to gain back those lost laps. It wasn't just luck alone that gained him this famous win, he earned it the hard way with determination, smarts, and insanely talented driving.

Do not ignore that on his very first Formula One race he dominated, and should have won. But an oil leak forced him to back off, allowing Hill to pass him and secure the win. That is how good he was.

But once he won his title, everything changed, his sense of entitlement grew into gargantuan proportions and he went after the money. For quite a few years he had the second highest salary, eclipsed only by Michael Schumacher.

Jacques Villeneuve had the talent, smarts, and experience to become one of the all time greats. But his attitude got in the way. If he had the attitude and motivation of Schumacher or Vettel, many people would have a very different perception of the man and the history books would be very different.

Image
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/b5/e7/44b5e77125cb7aeb29542e9c552c8dda.jpg

As far as his relationship with his father, that was very complicated and no doubt still painful for Jacques on many levels. Gilles provided for his family, they never wanted. But he was a playboy Formula One driver, living the high life, and becoming a revered saint by his death. You can't compete against a martyr or saint. His father's name was very beneficial in allowing him to get rides, but it was also a double edged sword because even winning something his father never did, he was not as respected or adored.

Here here!

It's incredible how dying at a young age creates such a mystical sense of Legend & Lore. Gilles, though an excellent driver with insane bravado and great speed, lacked consistency. If he was as great as his legend suggests, he'd have a much more significant statistic in the history books than his horrific, premature death. Sadly he had the talent, but as you pointed out so poignantly, his playboy lifestyle was quite fast and he and a few others in F1 at the time were competing off the track just as much as they were on it. There's no telling how signifiant a role his lifestyle played on his on-tack efforts.


He was consistent enough to come very close to winning a WDC in only his second proper season. That's despite having to play No.2 to his more experienced team mate. Gilles was as good as Scheckter by only his second season. That's pretty impressive. I think its unfair judge him by modern day standards where the drivers are incredibly consistent and make much fewer mistakes.

Not one of the greatest ever but one of the greatest non champions.

He didn't have to play number two at the start of the season. Running into the back of a competitor at Belgium in 1979 cost him points that would have put him ahead of Scheckter by Monaco, the cut off point to decide who was the number one driver. Gilles was very entertaining to watch but he had so many crashes in his F1 career. You could almost predict it to the point of tuning in to a grand prix to watch Villeneuve crash. For me, he didn't have a season where he ever looked like being consistent enough to be a WDC. He could have done it in 1982 but he was having episodes of losing control of the car way before Zolder. He spun in the race at Long Beach IIRC in that car with the double rear wing and forced himself off the track in Brazil while under pressure from Rosberg and Piquet.


That and the fact he had two more mechanical failures in those first 7 races. It doesn't detract from the point that he was able to stick with his team mate for the whole year despite being in only his second season.

You also have to play by the rules in your time. For example in 79 you could only keep your points from 9 out of 15 races. So consistency was not as important as it is today where retirements are rare.


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