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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:21 pm 
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So, yet another first corner incident caused by Vettel, and this time it ended his race.

What is going on with Seb? He looked impressive in 2015 where he had a bit of a honeymoon period with his new team, but this year he has been involved in these incidents, he has Kimi breathing down his neck, and judging from his team radio, he seems very frustrated.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:25 pm 
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More to the point, Grosjean's move to Haas to get into a Ferrari is looking further away with each race that Kimi outscores Seb.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:34 pm 
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a 4 x champ - what a joke - using a banger racing technique , Ferrari driver ! get Alonso back as his talents are being mostly wasted at the moment - how long before a McLaren podium ?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:42 pm 
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He (and Ferrari as a whole) has been extremely unimpressive this season.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:42 pm 
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I thought he was unlucky today - in hindsight it's easy to criticise but Rosberg left a gap initially. Perhaps he was also doubly unlucky it was Rosberg's indestructible car he hit as well!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:48 pm 
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Vettel seems to be in bad form IMO. I've noticed over the years that he tends to not perform very well well he isn't happy with a situation.

Beginning of 2012: key component of the Red Bull advantage of 2011 banned.
2014: Up against a dominant car he hasn't got a chance against for the first time.

Now Red Bull have overtaken Ferrari to be the second best car and his performance drops again. Put him in a situation he's happy with (e.g. 2015 with a resurgent Ferrari) and he is one of the best out there, but he's not able to deliver when his head isn't in the right place.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:56 pm 
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I think he's getting frustrated - he knows he should be fighting for wins and titles but doesn't have the car to do it, and he's trying to force himself into battles at the front.

But had Rosberg not turned in so sharply at turn 1, Vettel would have been running third ahead of both Red Bulls and could have had a very good result. There's an argument that could be made that it's better to be pushing and creating chances like that, even if it goes wrong, than to trundle around in 5th every race which is pretty meaningless to both him and the team.

Talk of bad form is vastly overblown however - he was pretty unanimously voted driver of the day in the very last race having charged through the field because he was forced to start last due to car failure.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:11 pm 
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I was very angry with what he did because he ruined my fantasy team! But overall I reckoned my team was still ok, I also had race leader Lewis Hamilton...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:26 pm 
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He probably feels that things are so bad he can not afford to wait for a second chance at a pass and goes for broke instead of using his head.
You often see something similar in sport where there has been a dry spell and they feel they have to prove themselves at every opitunity.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:48 pm 
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I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:12 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?


Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:23 pm 
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Vettel is one of the best drivers, one bad race, or even one bad season can not erase that. He knows he has no car to win, he tried to place himself nicely, it did not work, what now, he is suddenly a crash kid?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:26 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?

He had a similar gap to Kimi in 2015 as Alonso did the previous year. This year the gap has narrowed, but it's difficult to say whether that's due to Vettel dropping the ball or Kimi improving. Someone else recently mentioned that the switch to push-rod has benefited Kimi much more, and indeed I remember reading articles before this year which stated that pull-rod was detrimental to Kimi's driving style. But in any event, there's no reason to suggest the Ferrari team mates' relative pace is down to Vettel being worse this year. How can you say it wouldn't have been similar with e,g, Alonso driving there?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:32 pm 
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His driving has been at times tardy.

Today, whilst I class it as a racing incident, I'd expect a 4x WDC to know that was a very risky move that was unlikely to come off well.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:34 pm 
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I don't think there was too much wrong with what he did at turn 1, the gap was there when he went for it, and when he got there it was gone, that's T1L1 for you. What I didn't love was the heavy insinuation in his initial pressers that Verstappen was entirely to blame; I don't know wether he thinks he has some sort of moral duty to try and steer the kids in whatever direction he thinks they should be racing, but it's bordering on harassment. I don't particularly condone Max's little speech over the radio after the event either, but at least he has the excuse of youthful exuberance to fall back on.

As for the gap between Vettel and Kimi this year, I think Kimi has upped his game at the same time that Vettel is letting his frustration affect his racecraft, leading to an exaggerated closing of the gap between their pace and results.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
He had a similar gap to Kimi in 2015 as Alonso did the previous year. This year the gap has narrowed, but it's difficult to say whether that's due to Vettel dropping the ball or Kimi improving. Someone else recently mentioned that the switch to push-rod has benefited Kimi much more, and indeed I remember reading articles before this year which stated that pull-rod was detrimental to Kimi's driving style. But in any event, there's no reason to suggest the Ferrari team mates' relative pace is down to Vettel being worse this year. How can you say it wouldn't have been similar with e,g, Alonso driving there?


I don't buy the push-rod suits another driver argument because it is expected of a top-tier driver to adjust to the characteristics of a car. Before the 2014 season, Kimi advocates said he would do better than Fernando because his driving style was better suited for turbos. Then as the season progressed, the argument changed to that the car was custom tailored to Fernando's liking and was the explanation for Kimi being half a second or more slower. At the same time, without EBD, Vettel had a hard time coping with the lack of rear downforce on his Red Bull and couldn't find those few tenths compared to Ricciardo.

The Ferrari team admitted the balance of their 2016 car is on a tight rope, so maybe Vettel is struggling to cope more this year? I might be in the minority, but I expect a top-tier driver to be able to adapt their driving style whenever necessary. I don't see Vettel has shown that ability, and Kimi? He's never had it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:24 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He had a similar gap to Kimi in 2015 as Alonso did the previous year. This year the gap has narrowed, but it's difficult to say whether that's due to Vettel dropping the ball or Kimi improving. Someone else recently mentioned that the switch to push-rod has benefited Kimi much more, and indeed I remember reading articles before this year which stated that pull-rod was detrimental to Kimi's driving style. But in any event, there's no reason to suggest the Ferrari team mates' relative pace is down to Vettel being worse this year. How can you say it wouldn't have been similar with e,g, Alonso driving there?


I don't buy the push-rod suits another driver argument because it is expected of a top-tier driver to adjust to the characteristics of a car. Before the 2014 season, Kimi advocates said he would do better than Fernando because his driving style was better suited for turbos. Then as the season progressed, the argument changed to that the car was custom tailored to Fernando's liking and was the explanation for Kimi being half a second or more slower. At the same time, without EBD, Vettel had a hard time coping with the lack of rear downforce on his Red Bull and couldn't find those few tenths compared to Ricciardo.

The Ferrari team admitted the balance of their 2016 car is on a tight rope, so maybe Vettel is struggling to cope more this year? I might be in the minority, but I expect a top-tier driver to be able to adapt their driving style whenever necessary. I don't see Vettel has shown that ability, and Kimi? He's never had it.

It's not an attempt to absolve Kimi of blame for his poor performances in 2014 and 2015. It's more an effort to explain the difference between then and now and why he's closer to his teammate this year. I totally believe that's the reason

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:29 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He had a similar gap to Kimi in 2015 as Alonso did the previous year. This year the gap has narrowed, but it's difficult to say whether that's due to Vettel dropping the ball or Kimi improving. Someone else recently mentioned that the switch to push-rod has benefited Kimi much more, and indeed I remember reading articles before this year which stated that pull-rod was detrimental to Kimi's driving style. But in any event, there's no reason to suggest the Ferrari team mates' relative pace is down to Vettel being worse this year. How can you say it wouldn't have been similar with e,g, Alonso driving there?


I don't buy the push-rod suits another driver argument because it is expected of a top-tier driver to adjust to the characteristics of a car. Before the 2014 season, Kimi advocates said he would do better than Fernando because his driving style was better suited for turbos. Then as the season progressed, the argument changed to that the car was custom tailored to Fernando's liking and was the explanation for Kimi being half a second or more slower. At the same time, without EBD, Vettel had a hard time coping with the lack of rear downforce on his Red Bull and couldn't find those few tenths compared to Ricciardo.

The Ferrari team admitted the balance of their 2016 car is on a tight rope, so maybe Vettel is struggling to cope more this year? I might be in the minority, but I expect a top-tier driver to be able to adapt their driving style whenever necessary. I don't see Vettel has shown that ability, and Kimi? He's never had it.

It's not an attempt to absolve Kimi of blame for his poor performances in 2014 and 2015. It's more an effort to explain the difference between then and now and why he's closer to his teammate this year. I totally believe that's the reason

This.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:35 pm 
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I thought he was a bit unlucky today. As mentioned above, the gap was there and I really don't think he braked thaaat late. The gap just closed as sometimes happens in the first corner. For me it was a racing incident and the penalty was overly harsh.

A couple of messy races doesn't necessarily make a trend though. My only though is that Kimi's seeming resurgence means he feels like he is having to push the boat out a bit more to assert himself, which means he is making more errors.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:39 pm 
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Really? That's crashing?

IMO it's a freaking racing incident, where the inside car (Vettel) is not going to back out, the outside car (Rosberg) turns down and pinches the two cars down there. Three cars go in into a corner three wide, and we don't expect it not to work out?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:41 pm 
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Not having a car cabable of winning is a dumb argument. If he had kept his nose clean at the start it could have well been him on the top step. Whats the old saying? To finish first......


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:05 pm 
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Yet another example that shows that vettel is a quick driver but a subpar racer.
He is the kind of driver that needs to take pole position and then get away, otherwise he often has problems.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:05 pm 
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Let's not forget the guy was pretty much the driver of the day in Singapore, so he still has it.

I just think that this year he is having a hard time coming to grasp with Redbull being faster than him. He refuses to accept it as his sole ambition this season was to catch the silver cars. But Redbull has really surpassed Ferrari during the course of the season and you can tell that he is not accepting that. That lack of acceptance has led to some overzealous driving and more errors, as he tries to prove that Ferrari is somehow still the 2nd best car. I feel sorry for him. He better pack his bags and leave after next year. Ferrari has shown zero sign that they can build a championship level car.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?


Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?

They should have done all they could to hold on to Alonso. I don't think he left entirely of his own accord.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:19 pm 
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j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?

Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?

They should have done all they could to hold on to Alonso. I don't think he left entirely of his own accord.

Agreed. The best driver available was the one leaving them. Nobody really knows what was going on behind the scenes, but I'm also of the opinion that they didn't try as hard as they could have to retain Alonso.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:43 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?

Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?

They should have done all they could to hold on to Alonso. I don't think he left entirely of his own accord.

Agreed. The best driver available was the one leaving them. Nobody really knows what was going on behind the scenes, but I'm also of the opinion that they didn't try as hard as they could have to retain Alonso.

Who knows, but in the end if the driver really wants to leave, he will leave.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:32 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Vettel is one of the best drivers, one bad race, or even one bad season can not erase that. He knows he has no car to win, he tried to place himself nicely, it did not work, what now, he is suddenly a crash kid?


Look at the source of the comment,Lt. Drebin.... Then ignore him. You notice he starts the sh1t flowing an then leaves the thread.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:58 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
He is the kind of driver that needs to take pole position and then get away, otherwise he often has problems.


You could say the same for just about every top driver in the grid.

Only 2 weeks ago Vettel made his way through "cleanly", from last up to the 5th place... something that Ricciardo, or even Rosberg and Hamilton with better cars haven't managed to do 100% clean (without bumping into other cars at least once) in most cases.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?


Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?


funny thing, he wasnt available.
He broke his 2015 contract with Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:53 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
So, yet another first corner incident caused by Vettel, and this time it ended his race.

What is going on with Seb? He looked impressive in 2015 where he had a bit of a honeymoon period with his new team, but this year he has been involved in these incidents, he has Kimi breathing down his neck, and judging from his team radio, he seems very frustrated.
Oh yeah. Third at Monza, fifth (from the back of the grid) at Singapore. He's obviously lost it...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:07 am 
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I never thought i'd be saying this but i'm gunna stick up for Vettel here.

I thought he had every right to go for that gap and it was unfortunate for him that maybe Rosberg cut in when he did.

The thing that did really impressed me though was the way he handled it during interview. He admitted he was at fault, apologised to Rosberg and called himself a fool.

It's often said you see the true class of a person when times are tough. I was very anti Schumi until he raced for MB and seen the way he handled not winning every race and actually struggling and now I find myself doing the same for Vettel. I actually want him to win races. Not at the expense of Ricciardo mind you (I'm not mad), but yeah, I would'nt be disappointed to see him win again.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:08 am 
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No he hasn't lost it but is he really that miracle man Ferrari made him look like being the only non Mercedes winner last year? He seemed rejuvenated but Ferrari was a much better car than the one from 2014 in which even Alonso had no hope of winning.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:53 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
I never thought i'd be saying this but i'm gunna stick up for Vettel here.

I thought he had every right to go for that gap and it was unfortunate for him that maybe Rosberg cut in when he did.

The thing that did really impressed me though was the way he handled it during interview. He admitted he was at fault, apologised to Rosberg and called himself a fool.

It's often said you see the true class of a person when times are tough. I was very anti Schumi until he raced for MB and seen the way he handled not winning every race and actually struggling and now I find myself doing the same for Vettel. I actually want him to win races. Not at the expense of Ricciardo mind you (I'm not mad), but yeah, I would'nt be disappointed to see him win again.

You are wrong, you cannot, simply cannot run wide on the inside in the first corner of the first lap like that unless you are first and have track position. Its suicidal thing to do when you have several cars right in front, because you become a "torpedo", the gaps will always disappear and most likely the cars in front wont see you and you will hit them.

Vettel made a beginners mistake there, trying to outbrake max, instead of braking in the optimal moment to avoid running wide.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:17 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
I never thought i'd be saying this but i'm gunna stick up for Vettel here.

I thought he had every right to go for that gap and it was unfortunate for him that maybe Rosberg cut in when he did.

The thing that did really impressed me though was the way he handled it during interview. He admitted he was at fault, apologised to Rosberg and called himself a fool.

It's often said you see the true class of a person when times are tough. I was very anti Schumi until he raced for MB and seen the way he handled not winning every race and actually struggling and now I find myself doing the same for Vettel. I actually want him to win races. Not at the expense of Ricciardo mind you (I'm not mad), but yeah, I would'nt be disappointed to see him win again.

You are wrong, you cannot, simply cannot run wide on the inside in the first corner of the first lap like that unless you are first and have track position. Its suicidal thing to do when you have several cars right in front, because you become a "torpedo", the gaps will always disappear and most likely the cars in front wont see you and you will hit them.

Vettel made a beginners mistake there, trying to outbrake max, instead of braking in the optimal moment to avoid running wide.


You're right and I have no idea what I was thinking. I firstly defended his move then admired the way he fronted up and said he it was his fault.

I've had another look at it and it was a very clumsy and desperate move.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:41 pm 
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Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?


Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?


funny thing, he wasnt available.
He broke his 2015 contract with Red Bull.


The argument isn't if Ferrari should have signed Vettel. It is the amount of money they decided to pay him after Alonso left.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:32 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Vettel is one of the best drivers, one bad race, or even one bad season can not erase that. He knows he has no car to win, he tried to place himself nicely, it did not work, what now, he is suddenly a crash kid?

This.

As well, have they released ANY in car footage from Verstappen and others behind? Vettel was FULLY alongside Max going into turn one so I'm not so convinced Vettel was unaided.

It looks to me like Vettel was holding the inside line ok until they switched cameras and then his car darted a touch left in similar fashion to when you're clipped in the left rear. Even still he might have made contact with Rosberg anyway but the trajectory might have been such that both may have continued on.

The irony in all this is Verstappen placing the blame fully on Vettel when this was a much better version than his own dive down the inside at the start of the Belgian GP. Vettel never went off track and was fully alongside Verstappen so Verstappen had a CLEAR view of him. At least in Belgium, Max snuck in at the last second. Here Max saw him clearly.

Either way a racing incident but i wouldn't be so quick to single Vettel out and certainly Ma is no one to point fingers, and the 3-place grid penalty is a bit unwarranted IMPO. He lost out 100% here, no points for himself or the team. No need to handicap his efforts any further.

Crash Kid?… If that's what anyone would like to refer to Vettel as, then what about MAD Max who has been fortunate Kimi used his lightning fast reflexes to keep them from crashing out at least 3 times due to overzealous defending?

And before anyone jump to single me out as a Max hater, I was one of the first to sing his praises on here and still say he's showing immense ability, but that doesn't mean it absolves him from mistakes in my eyes. He needs to look in the mirror before running his mouth. he's won all of one race, whereas the guys he's criticizing have won dozens of them, not to mention several WDC's. They didn't merely luck into all those wins and titles.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:21 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?

Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?

They should have done all they could to hold on to Alonso. I don't think he left entirely of his own accord.

Agreed. The best driver available was the one leaving them. Nobody really knows what was going on behind the scenes, but I'm also of the opinion that they didn't try as hard as they could have to retain Alonso.

Nah Alonso was done with Ferrari and took a gamble on McLaren. I wish Ferrari had kept him because I'd have loved to see Alonso take on Vettel in equal machinery but there was no chance Alonso was staying there.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:40 pm 
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This thread is a joke, crash kid are you joking? As poster above says what about max, what about rosberg, what about Hamilton.

The difference between contact and no contact is often in the hands of the defending driver, it just happens turn 1 is a bit of a melee at times.

If he was doing this in the middle of races banging into people maybe.

If that wasn't turn 1 lap 1 Nico would have seen it and not taken that line. A bit like bottas but nowhere near as bad. Bottas crash kid !!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:48 am 
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Are you seriously bashing Vettel for going for the gap? If I am not mistaken this is the same thing Verstappen is doing and all are praising him, yet when Vettel does it suddenly you call him a crash kid? Gimme a break...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:32 am 
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guardiangr wrote:
Are you seriously bashing Vettel for going for the gap? If I am not mistaken this is the same thing Verstappen is doing and all are praising him, yet when Vettel does it suddenly you call him a crash kid? Gimme a break...


Are you seriously saying you have missed the mass criticism of Verstappen?

That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here. Verstappen was actually able to keep his car tight on the inside and had Vettel not squeezed his team mate everyone would have made it through.

Vettel basically just speared into Rosberg.

I like Vettel a lot but he was the main culprit in Spa and Sepang.


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