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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:13 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Are you seriously bashing Vettel for going for the gap? If I am not mistaken this is the same thing Verstappen is doing and all are praising him, yet when Vettel does it suddenly you call him a crash kid? Gimme a break...


Are you seriously saying you have missed the mass criticism of Verstappen?

That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here. Verstappen was actually able to keep his car tight on the inside and had Vettel not squeezed his team mate everyone would have made it through.

Vettel basically just speared into Rosberg.

I like Vettel a lot but he was the main culprit in Spa and Sepang.


I am not defending him, the blame lies on him entirely but seriously? Making threads titled "the return of the crash kid" based on one mistake? That's really low. What about Alonso then after Australia, should someone make a thread "The awakening of a crash kid"?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:20 am 
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guardiangr wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Are you seriously bashing Vettel for going for the gap? If I am not mistaken this is the same thing Verstappen is doing and all are praising him, yet when Vettel does it suddenly you call him a crash kid? Gimme a break...


Are you seriously saying you have missed the mass criticism of Verstappen?

That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here. Verstappen was actually able to keep his car tight on the inside and had Vettel not squeezed his team mate everyone would have made it through.

Vettel basically just speared into Rosberg.

I like Vettel a lot but he was the main culprit in Spa and Sepang.


I am not defending him, the blame lies on him entirely but seriously? Making threads titled "the return of the crash kid" based on one mistake? That's really low. What about Alonso then after Australia, should someone make a thread "The awakening of a crash kid"?

I think you have to look at the OP's overall position on Vettel to understand why this thread was made.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:22 am 
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Zoue wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Are you seriously bashing Vettel for going for the gap? If I am not mistaken this is the same thing Verstappen is doing and all are praising him, yet when Vettel does it suddenly you call him a crash kid? Gimme a break...


Are you seriously saying you have missed the mass criticism of Verstappen?

That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here. Verstappen was actually able to keep his car tight on the inside and had Vettel not squeezed his team mate everyone would have made it through.

Vettel basically just speared into Rosberg.

I like Vettel a lot but he was the main culprit in Spa and Sepang.


I am not defending him, the blame lies on him entirely but seriously? Making threads titled "the return of the crash kid" based on one mistake? That's really low. What about Alonso then after Australia, should someone make a thread "The awakening of a crash kid"?

I think you have to look at the OP's overall position on Vettel to understand why this thread was made.


That I agree with!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:27 am 
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Zoue wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Are you seriously bashing Vettel for going for the gap? If I am not mistaken this is the same thing Verstappen is doing and all are praising him, yet when Vettel does it suddenly you call him a crash kid? Gimme a break...


Are you seriously saying you have missed the mass criticism of Verstappen?

That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here. Verstappen was actually able to keep his car tight on the inside and had Vettel not squeezed his team mate everyone would have made it through.

Vettel basically just speared into Rosberg.

I like Vettel a lot but he was the main culprit in Spa and Sepang.


I am not defending him, the blame lies on him entirely but seriously? Making threads titled "the return of the crash kid" based on one mistake? That's really low. What about Alonso then after Australia, should someone make a thread "The awakening of a crash kid"?

I think you have to look at the OP's overall position on Vettel to understand why this thread was made.


Oh... You're right. Nevermind then.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:03 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
I never thought i'd be saying this but i'm gunna stick up for Vettel here.

I thought he had every right to go for that gap and it was unfortunate for him that maybe Rosberg cut in when he did.

The thing that did really impressed me though was the way he handled it during interview. He admitted he was at fault, apologised to Rosberg and called himself a fool.

It's often said you see the true class of a person when times are tough. I was very anti Schumi until he raced for MB and seen the way he handled not winning every race and actually struggling and now I find myself doing the same for Vettel. I actually want him to win races. Not at the expense of Ricciardo mind you (I'm not mad), but yeah, I would'nt be disappointed to see him win again.

You are wrong, you cannot, simply cannot run wide on the inside in the first corner of the first lap like that unless you are first and have track position. Its suicidal thing to do when you have several cars right in front, because you become a "torpedo", the gaps will always disappear and most likely the cars in front wont see you and you will hit them.

Vettel made a beginners mistake there, trying to outbrake max, instead of braking in the optimal moment to avoid running wide.

Could you show dislike for Vettel any more?

This is what I've been looking for because looking at Vettel's in-car cam, his car suddenly darts left, which I stated was indicative of being hit on the left rear. Looking at this you can CLEARLY see Verstappen turns in on Vettel. However, Rosberg turns in on Verstappen and clips his front wing and pushes him into Vettel which ironically send Vettel into Rosberg's right rear. The least culpable person in this incident was Vettel.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi22glDc5Vo[/youtube]


mikeyg123 wrote:
That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here.

In a Gazillion years this wont be true. At Spa Vertsappen was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off track and almost into the wall. In Malaysia Vettel pulls alongside light years sooner than max was at Spa and is ON-TRACK and HOLDING HIS LINE until Rosberg clips Max and Max clips Vettel. Look at the video carefully and at the 0:34 mark you will see what actually transpired. The penalty on Vettel is preposterous and unwarranted. He did nothing wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:37 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:


This is what I've been looking for because looking at Vettel's in-car cam, his car suddenly darts left, which I stated was indicative of being hit on the left rear. Looking at this you can CLEARLY see Verstappen turns in on Vettel. However, Rosberg turns in on Verstappen and clips his front wing and pushes him into Vettel which ironically send Vettel into Rosberg's right rear. The least culpable person in this incident was Vettel.


The bad quality of the footage makes it difficult to establish without any doubts that your version is 100% accurate, although the change of directions of all the 3 cars at certain points does suggest that you may be correct.

Also the SkySport commentary mentioned it after the 1st replays during the race that Vettel was hit 1st by Verstapen and therefore what happen thereafter wasnt Vettel's fault. But I dont know what was said on the post-race analysis!?

If it wasnt for the fact that the incident was reviewed by the Stewards and Vettel was found guilty, being his fan, I would have happily accepted that Vettel was the innocent party there... but as it stands... I dont think the steward could possibly punish Vettel had they established that Verstapen hit Vettel first, therefore maybe there wasnt any contact between them 2 at all!?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:01 pm 
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Migen wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:


This is what I've been looking for because looking at Vettel's in-car cam, his car suddenly darts left, which I stated was indicative of being hit on the left rear. Looking at this you can CLEARLY see Verstappen turns in on Vettel. However, Rosberg turns in on Verstappen and clips his front wing and pushes him into Vettel which ironically send Vettel into Rosberg's right rear. The least culpable person in this incident was Vettel.


The bad quality of the footage makes it difficult to establish without any doubts that your version is 100% accurate, although the change of directions of all the 3 cars at certain points does suggest that you may be correct.

Also the SkySport commentary mentioned it after the 1st replays during the race that Vettel was hit 1st by Verstapen and therefore what happen thereafter wasnt Vettel's fault. But I dont know what was said on the post-race analysis!?

If it wasnt for the fact that the incident was reviewed by the Stewards and Vettel was found guilty, being his fan, I would have happily accepted that Vettel was the innocent party there... but as it stands... I dont think the steward could possibly punish Vettel had they established that Verstapen hit Vettel first, therefore maybe there wasnt any contact between them 2 at all!?




Just found the onbord footage from Ricciardo's car which clearly shows ahead that Verstapen did NOT touch Vettel at all, so the incident was 100% Vettel`s fault.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:40 pm 
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No it's not the return of the crash kid or any such rubbish, yes he was solely to blame in Malaysia as Ricciardo's and Seb's onboards clearly show.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:11 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
So, yet another first corner incident caused by Vettel, and this time it ended his race.

What is going on with Seb? He looked impressive in 2015 where he had a bit of a honeymoon period with his new team, but this year he has been involved in these incidents, he has Kimi breathing down his neck, and judging from his team radio, he seems very frustrated.
Oh yeah. Third at Monza, fifth (from the back of the grid) at Singapore. He's obviously lost it...


Well the press in Italy seem to think so.

"Has Maranello sunk the highest paid driver in Ferrari history, or has Vettel lost his talent and speed?" - The Roman

"It is clear now that Ferrari urgently needs a successful driver," - Corriere della Serra

I guess the honeymoon period really is over. This might end in a similar way to Prost's career at Ferrari...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:12 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?

Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?

They should have done all they could to hold on to Alonso. I don't think he left entirely of his own accord.

Agreed. The best driver available was the one leaving them. Nobody really knows what was going on behind the scenes, but I'm also of the opinion that they didn't try as hard as they could have to retain Alonso.

Nah Alonso was done with Ferrari and took a gamble on McLaren. I wish Ferrari had kept him because I'd have loved to see Alonso take on Vettel in equal machinery but there was no chance Alonso was staying there.


Agreed. Allison tried very hard to keep him, but Alonso had simply lost faith in Ferrari's ability to produce a winning car.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:18 pm 
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Amon wrote:
No he hasn't lost it but is he really that miracle man Ferrari made him look like being the only non Mercedes winner last year? He seemed rejuvenated but Ferrari was a much better car than the one from 2014 in which even Alonso had no hope of winning.


That's a good point, alot of people thought that Vettel would enjoy the same amount of success at Ferrari as Schumacher did, and they thought he would be able to develop the car into a winner and build a winning team through warm fuzzy feelings and saying a few italian phrases on the radio. He even won 3 races in his first season at Ferrari, just like Schumacher did. But then this season came and Ferrari were no closer to Mercedes, and actually ended up falling back towards Red Bull. Immediately, Vettel's attitude changed, and he has started publicly complaining about the car and making silly errors resulting in lost points for the team.

The reality is that Vettel, nor Alonso, nor Schumacher, nor anyone is going to develop the car or make it quicker. That job is down to all the technical staff in the team.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:35 pm 
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Migen wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:


This is what I've been looking for because looking at Vettel's in-car cam, his car suddenly darts left, which I stated was indicative of being hit on the left rear. Looking at this you can CLEARLY see Verstappen turns in on Vettel. However, Rosberg turns in on Verstappen and clips his front wing and pushes him into Vettel which ironically send Vettel into Rosberg's right rear. The least culpable person in this incident was Vettel.


The bad quality of the footage makes it difficult to establish without any doubts that your version is 100% accurate, although the change of directions of all the 3 cars at certain points does suggest that you may be correct.

Also the SkySport commentary mentioned it after the 1st replays during the race that Vettel was hit 1st by Verstapen and therefore what happen thereafter wasnt Vettel's fault. But I dont know what was said on the post-race analysis!?

If it wasnt for the fact that the incident was reviewed by the Stewards and Vettel was found guilty, being his fan, I would have happily accepted that Vettel was the innocent party there... but as it stands... I dont think the steward could possibly punish Vettel had they established that Verstapen hit Vettel first, therefore maybe there wasnt any contact between them 2 at all!?




Just found the onbord footage from Ricciardo's car which clearly shows ahead that Verstapen did NOT touch Vettel at all, so the incident was 100% Vettel`s fault.

I stand corrected. THANK YOU for finding this. So frustrating how difficult it is to find race footage.

Vettel indeed screwed the pooch. Maybe he panicked when he saw Verstappen lurch towards him? Either way it looked like in that initial crappy footage like Verstappen touches Vettel and this clears that up.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:45 am 
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guardiangr wrote:
Zoue wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
guardiangr wrote:
Are you seriously bashing Vettel for going for the gap? If I am not mistaken this is the same thing Verstappen is doing and all are praising him, yet when Vettel does it suddenly you call him a crash kid? Gimme a break...


Are you seriously saying you have missed the mass criticism of Verstappen?

That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here. Verstappen was actually able to keep his car tight on the inside and had Vettel not squeezed his team mate everyone would have made it through.

Vettel basically just speared into Rosberg.

I like Vettel a lot but he was the main culprit in Spa and Sepang.


I am not defending him, the blame lies on him entirely but seriously? Making threads titled "the return of the crash kid" based on one mistake? That's really low. What about Alonso then after Australia, should someone make a thread "The awakening of a crash kid"?

I think you have to look at the OP's overall position on Vettel to understand why this thread was made.


Oh... You're right. Nevermind then.


Exactly.... heath goes to every extreme to attack Vettel... even creating asine threads and digging up year old ones.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:01 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Vettel's attitude changed, and he has started publicly complaining about the car


I'd like to see some quotes here. As far as I have followed the news, he's always been very supportive about and confident in Ferrari's abilities, how they will bounce back, how they still can win races this year.

You are free to prove me wrong of course.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:05 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
In a Gazillion years this wont be true. At Spa Vertsappen was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off track and almost into the wall.


Verstappen was never off track in Spa and he held his line as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:24 am 
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mds wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
In a Gazillion years this wont be true. At Spa Vertsappen was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off track and almost into the wall.

Verstappen was never off track in Spa and he held his line as well.

You sure about that?



At just past 0:10, he clearly has his entire left wheel outside the track as defined by the white line. Way off track may be an exaggeration, but he did entirely leave the limits of the track while attempting his move. Later in the video at about 0:18 you can see once again that he is off the track.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:37 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
In a Gazillion years this wont be true. At Spa Vertsappen was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off track and almost into the wall.

Verstappen was never off track in Spa and he held his line as well.

You sure about that?

...

At just past 0:10, he clearly has his entire left wheel outside the track as defined by the white line. Way off track may be an exaggeration, but he did entirely leave the limits of the track while attempting his move. Later in the video at about 0:18 you can see once again that he is off the track.


Larger footage and frame-by-frame controls here: http://rowvid.com/?v=-zwehPTcO9I

I can't find a single frame where his wheel doesn't touch the track.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:50 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
In a Gazillion years this wont be true. At Spa Vertsappen was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off track and almost into the wall.

Verstappen was never off track in Spa and he held his line as well.

You sure about that?



At just past 0:10, he clearly has his entire left wheel outside the track as defined by the white line. Way off track may be an exaggeration, but he did entirely leave the limits of the track while attempting his move. Later in the video at about 0:18 you can see once again that he is off the track.


So is he pushed off the track then?

I don't think he ever leaves the track but I certainly can't see any space on the left for him to take the corner any wider.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:54 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
I never thought i'd be saying this but i'm gunna stick up for Vettel here.

I thought he had every right to go for that gap and it was unfortunate for him that maybe Rosberg cut in when he did.

The thing that did really impressed me though was the way he handled it during interview. He admitted he was at fault, apologised to Rosberg and called himself a fool.

It's often said you see the true class of a person when times are tough. I was very anti Schumi until he raced for MB and seen the way he handled not winning every race and actually struggling and now I find myself doing the same for Vettel. I actually want him to win races. Not at the expense of Ricciardo mind you (I'm not mad), but yeah, I would'nt be disappointed to see him win again.

You are wrong, you cannot, simply cannot run wide on the inside in the first corner of the first lap like that unless you are first and have track position. Its suicidal thing to do when you have several cars right in front, because you become a "torpedo", the gaps will always disappear and most likely the cars in front wont see you and you will hit them.

Vettel made a beginners mistake there, trying to outbrake max, instead of braking in the optimal moment to avoid running wide.

Could you show dislike for Vettel any more?

This is what I've been looking for because looking at Vettel's in-car cam, his car suddenly darts left, which I stated was indicative of being hit on the left rear. Looking at this you can CLEARLY see Verstappen turns in on Vettel. However, Rosberg turns in on Verstappen and clips his front wing and pushes him into Vettel which ironically send Vettel into Rosberg's right rear. The least culpable person in this incident was Vettel.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi22glDc5Vo[/youtube]


mikeyg123 wrote:
That said Verstappen was way cleaner at the first corner in Spa than Vettel was here.

In a Gazillion years this wont be true. At Spa Vertsappen was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY off track and almost into the wall. In Malaysia Vettel pulls alongside light years sooner than max was at Spa and is ON-TRACK and HOLDING HIS LINE until Rosberg clips Max and Max clips Vettel. Look at the video carefully and at the 0:34 mark you will see what actually transpired. The penalty on Vettel is preposterous and unwarranted. He did nothing wrong.


I really don't think Vettel was alongside sooner. Verstappen was alongside Kimi miles before the corner, as Vettel was in relation to Verstappen.

Vettel's problem was that he forgot about Rosberg. Verstappen wasn't given space (by Vettel) and Vettel was given space. There is always a Ferrari width at turn 1.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:15 am 
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mds wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Vettel's attitude changed, and he has started publicly complaining about the car


I'd like to see some quotes here. As far as I have followed the news, he's always been very supportive about and confident in Ferrari's abilities, how they will bounce back, how they still can win races this year.

You are free to prove me wrong of course.


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... qualifying

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ferrari-too- ... 58487.html


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:39 am 
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mds wrote:
Larger footage and frame-by-frame controls here: http://rowvid.com/?v=-zwehPTcO9I

I can't find a single frame where his wheel doesn't touch the track.

Apparently it's more of a matter of interpretation than I thought, then. To me, he's clearly off track from 33.54 - 33.66. But if you don't agree after looking at it frame by frame, I don't suppose I'm going to convince you of that.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:00 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
mds wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Vettel's attitude changed, and he has started publicly complaining about the car


I'd like to see some quotes here. As far as I have followed the news, he's always been very supportive about and confident in Ferrari's abilities, how they will bounce back, how they still can win races this year.

You are free to prove me wrong of course.


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... qualifying

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ferrari-too- ... 58487.html


So, have you bothered to read his actual quotes?

Quote:
"We started very quickly in Q1 and then, unfortunately, we weren't able to maintain the progress. I haven't discussed it with the team yet but l couldn't find the same grip l had in Q1," Vettel said.


Quote:
Vettel added: "The positive news is that the car is very quick, it was very quick in practice this morning. It wasn't good on Thursday but we made a big step today and then weren't able to carry it through. I don't think the laps at the end were a big surprise, l don't think they were out of range - it was just a case of us losing the rhythm."


Quote:
"Overall it was not our day," said the German. "Just not quick enough. As simple as that."


Nothing in here suggests public complaining about the car. Quite the opposite: even though it's clearly the car that was too slow, he still uses "we", "us", "our". And he keeps it factual.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:06 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
Larger footage and frame-by-frame controls here: http://rowvid.com/?v=-zwehPTcO9I

I can't find a single frame where his wheel doesn't touch the track.

Apparently it's more of a matter of interpretation than I thought, then. To me, he's clearly off track from 33.54 - 33.66. But if you don't agree after looking at it frame by frame, I don't suppose I'm going to convince you of that.


Not quite :)

Image

Doesn't this clearly show the tyre touching the asphalt of the track?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:25 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
I always thought it was insane of Ferrari to sign Vettel for 50 million a year. When his dominate Red Bull lost EBD and he drove against a competent teammate, he lacked pace and his race craft was less than stellar. Vettel makes too many mistakes and is only slightly quicker than Raikkonen. It makes me wonder how much more pace could be extracted from the 2016 Ferrari if in the hands of another driver?


Vettel was unquestionably the best driver available for 2015. Who else should Ferrari have signed?


No one. They had Alonso and fell out with him. They should concentrate on building a better car and then they will always be able to put the right driver in it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:33 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Vettel is one of the best drivers, one bad race, or even one bad season can not erase that. He knows he has no car to win, he tried to place himself nicely, it did not work, what now, he is suddenly a crash kid?

This.

As well, have they released ANY in car footage from Verstappen and others behind? Vettel was FULLY alongside Max going into turn one so I'm not so convinced Vettel was unaided.
The best remark in the thread so far. I don't recall seeing any views from Max's or others' cars*. I have to add that when Rosberg later hit Räikkönen, I started to wonder whether the nature of the kerbs might have been a factor.

I have to agree that Vettel has looked poor on situational awareness this season. He could learn a bit from Räikkönen about caution on the first few laps.

jrwb6e wrote:
I don't buy the push-rod suits another driver argument because it is expected of a top-tier driver to adjust to the characteristics of a car.
There's a very good reason why Formula 1 is called Formula 1. It is because it is all about the car. Whether you buy the argument or not is irrelevant, because every driver adapts to the car he is given. No amount of money is going to influence the success of this adaptation if it is just spent on the driver.

* And I stand corrected on the video thing, just as Mercenary was. Ah well. Kerbs then, perhaps? Or just a fear of locking up and ending up going too fast for the chosen line?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:51 pm 
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mds wrote:
Not quite :)

Image

Doesn't this clearly show the tyre touching the asphalt of the track?

The part of it that's painted white, sure. For the rest, it's a matter or perspective and contact patch. I think it's not, but I suppose I can see why you think it is.

It's pretty academic either way. If a driver is so far off track you need to use single frames from a video to argue whether he's touching at all, it's probably a bit much to be making an overtaking attempt. If there was gravel there Max would never have even thought about it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:47 pm 
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Blake wrote:

Exactly.... heath goes to every extreme to attack Vettel... even creating asine threads and digging up year old ones.


The mind genuinely boggles.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:59 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
So, yet another first corner incident caused by Vettel, and this time it ended his race.

What is going on with Seb? He looked impressive in 2015 where he had a bit of a honeymoon period with his new team, but this year he has been involved in these incidents, he has Kimi breathing down his neck, and judging from his team radio, he seems very frustrated.
Oh yeah. Third at Monza, fifth (from the back of the grid) at Singapore. He's obviously lost it...
Well the press in Italy seem to think so.
"Has Maranello sunk the highest paid driver in Ferrari history, or has Vettel lost his talent and speed?" - The Roman
"It is clear now that Ferrari urgently needs a successful driver," - Corriere della Serra
I guess the honeymoon period really is over. This might end in a similar way to Prost's career at Ferrari...
Needs a successful driver. In terms of WDCs, who on the grid is more successful? Good luck to Ferrari...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:41 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
Not quite :)

Image

Doesn't this clearly show the tyre touching the asphalt of the track?

The part of it that's painted white, sure. For the rest, it's a matter or perspective and contact patch. I think it's not, but I suppose I can see why you think it is.

It's pretty academic either way. If a driver is so far off track you need to use single frames from a video to argue whether he's touching at all, it's probably a bit much to be making an overtaking attempt. If there was gravel there Max would never have even thought about it.


Would Kimi not be responsible for pushing a competitor off track in that case? It's not like there is a cars width been left for him to his left. He's been squeezed up on the curb.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:42 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Would Kimi not be responsible for pushing a competitor off track in that case? It's not like there is a cars width been left for him to his left. He's been squeezed up on the curb.

No - Kimi was giving him space until Seb started to turn in on the pair of them. I'm confident that if Vettel hadn't done what he'd done, Kimi and Max would have both made it through the corner on track.

I'm not blaming Max for the incident - it was clearly Seb's fault - but I also do think he left the track while trying to complete the move.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:51 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Would Kimi not be responsible for pushing a competitor off track in that case? It's not like there is a cars width been left for him to his left. He's been squeezed up on the curb.

No - Kimi was giving him space until Seb started to turn in on the pair of them. I'm confident that if Vettel hadn't done what he'd done, Kimi and Max would have both made it through the corner on track.

I'm not blaming Max for the incident - it was clearly Seb's fault - but I also do think he left the track while trying to complete the move.


But surely if he did go off tack it was only because he was being pushed off by Ferrari's. He had nowhere to go but use that little bit of curb.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:00 am 
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Vettel isn't handling the pressure of delivering in the 3rd fastest car all that well. He knowingly left RBR to sign up for this so I don't understand what the problem is for him. This is the same Ferrari as we've seen for the last decade, I'd actually say their technical lineup is weaker than earlier in the 2010s.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:19 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
But surely if he did go off tack it was only because he was being pushed off by Ferrari's. He had nowhere to go but use that little bit of curb.

He did have another way to go - backwards. As soon as the Ferraris started pinching him he could have backed out of the move, like many experienced drivers would. He chose to see it through and got hit for his efforts, because there was nowhere to go if the gap disappeared (which it did). He took a risk and it didn't pay off; that's what happens sometimes when you take a risk.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:37 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
But surely if he did go off tack it was only because he was being pushed off by Ferrari's. He had nowhere to go but use that little bit of curb.

He did have another way to go - backwards. As soon as the Ferraris started pinching him he could have backed out of the move, like many experienced drivers would. He chose to see it through and got hit for his efforts, because there was nowhere to go if the gap disappeared (which it did). He took a risk and it didn't pay off; that's what happens sometimes when you take a risk.


I'm not sure he can. By the time Vettel's come across he is already entering the corner. If he backs off he is just as likely to get hit up the rear than crushed against the inside wall anyway. What he did should not have been a major risk. Plenty of drivers go through that corner 3 a side at the start. The risk taker was Vettel. He swung across the track to get a better line out of the corner knowing that the space he wanted may already be taken.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:47 am 
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infi24r wrote:
Vettel isn't handling the pressure of delivering in the 3rd fastest car all that well. He knowingly left RBR to sign up for this so I don't understand what the problem is for him. This is the same Ferrari as we've seen for the last decade, I'd actually say their technical lineup is weaker than earlier in the 2010s.


I'm sorry to say I actually agree with that, and I don't quite know how they've managed to do it. And if it's true Williams have managed to snag James Key from STR for 2018 then that is such a shame because he's exactly what Ferrari could do with.

I've read the rumours about Lowe and Ferrari but that screams of just being used as contract negotiation tactic between Lowe and Merc, much like what happened with the drivers.

But if they could have got Key it would certainly have made me more confident going forwards for Ferrari. I refuse to believe someone would chose Williams over Ferrari, no disrespect to Williams, so I can only assume they didn't even bother to try.

(Key to Williams rumour this way for anyone interested http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 63946.html)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:13 am 
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Exediron wrote:
If a driver is so far off track you need to use single frames from a video to argue whether he's touching at all


Well I just need that single frame because that's the only frame where apparently one could question whether he's on-track or not, all the rest is fine ;)

Don't agree it's academic though - on-track is OK, off-track is not, so whether he was or wasn't is a big deal in judging this.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:46 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
You are wrong, you cannot, simply cannot run wide on the inside in the first corner of the first lap like that unless you are first and have track position. Its suicidal thing to do when you have several cars right in front, because you become a "torpedo", the gaps will always disappear and most likely the cars in front wont see you and you will hit them.

Vettel made a beginners mistake there, trying to outbrake max, instead of braking in the optimal moment to avoid running wide.

Could you show dislike for Vettel any more?

This is what I've been looking for because looking at Vettel's in-car cam, his car suddenly darts left, which I stated was indicative of being hit on the left rear. Looking at this you can CLEARLY see Verstappen turns in on Vettel. However, Rosberg turns in on Verstappen and clips his front wing and pushes him into Vettel which ironically send Vettel into Rosberg's right rear. The least culpable person in this incident was Vettel.


Not showing dislike for vettel, simply telling it like it is, as a neutral that dont have preference for either Vettel, Max or Rosberg.
Vettel ran wide at the entry of the corner, could not stick completely on the inside kerb, and as a result, he hit Rosberg and made Max take some sort of evasive action, which kinda worked but only just (even if they touched a little). Watching the video at 0.25 helps.
If you look carefully, vettel attempt was a bit desperate and foolish since he braked, he realised that he was not side by side enough with max, and lifted off the brakes a bit and then pressed them again, and that was without realising how close Rosberg was and without realising that the gap was going to close. This is not seen in the video you posted, but in this one:

That's a total beginners mistake no matter who does it. It is so clear that its Vettel running wide, I dont know why this discussion is still going on.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:40 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He had a similar gap to Kimi in 2015 as Alonso did the previous year. This year the gap has narrowed, but it's difficult to say whether that's due to Vettel dropping the ball or Kimi improving. Someone else recently mentioned that the switch to push-rod has benefited Kimi much more, and indeed I remember reading articles before this year which stated that pull-rod was detrimental to Kimi's driving style. But in any event, there's no reason to suggest the Ferrari team mates' relative pace is down to Vettel being worse this year. How can you say it wouldn't have been similar with e,g, Alonso driving there?


I don't buy the push-rod suits another driver argument because it is expected of a top-tier driver to adjust to the characteristics of a car. Before the 2014 season, Kimi advocates said he would do better than Fernando because his driving style was better suited for turbos. Then as the season progressed, the argument changed to that the car was custom tailored to Fernando's liking and was the explanation for Kimi being half a second or more slower. At the same time, without EBD, Vettel had a hard time coping with the lack of rear downforce on his Red Bull and couldn't find those few tenths compared to Ricciardo.

The Ferrari team admitted the balance of their 2016 car is on a tight rope, so maybe Vettel is struggling to cope more this year? I might be in the minority, but I expect a top-tier driver to be able to adapt their driving style whenever necessary. I don't see Vettel has shown that ability, and Kimi? He's never had it.


In 2014 Ferrari knew about Kimi's problem with the car. He was not even in top10 standings and finished at a miserable P12. Has to be one of the lowest point in his career. But things improved and he is even able to match Vettel in qualifying. Also in wet he did better than Vettel in Silverstone who is one of the best in wets. You cannot compare in relative to Kimi's performance from 2014 and 2016. Stats don't tell the complete story

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:24 pm 
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mds wrote:
Well I just need that single frame because that's the only frame where apparently one could question whether he's on-track or not, all the rest is fine ;)

Don't agree it's academic though - on-track is OK, off-track is not, so whether he was or wasn't is a big deal in judging this.

Okay, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I can't really see anything new being added to the discussion at this point.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:04 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
Well I just need that single frame because that's the only frame where apparently one could question whether he's on-track or not, all the rest is fine ;)

Don't agree it's academic though - on-track is OK, off-track is not, so whether he was or wasn't is a big deal in judging this.

Okay, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I can't really see anything new being added to the discussion at this point.

I thought the FIA considered the white line itself to be a part of the track - just everything beyond it isn't? Which means that since the white line is what Max's wheel is on, he's [barely] still on track? Not taking one side or the other, just looking at things from the rulebook.

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