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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:42 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
I thought the FIA considered the white line itself to be a part of the track - just everything beyond it isn't? Which means that since the white line is what Max's wheel is on, he's [barely] still on track? Not taking one side or the other, just looking at things from the rulebook.

If that's true, then I have to admit he was indeed on the track (well, a few inches of his car at least). I had remembered it as the white line marking the beginning of the off-track portion. I suppose I'll see if I can dig up something definite on that from the FIA's byzantine website!

Okay, got it:

Quote:
27.4 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Okay, that's pretty clear cut. Apparently Max was in fact on track. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:46 pm 
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vettel always looked good in a red bull , but nowhere as good in other cars , why is this? was it because of the blown exhaust thingy that he had an amazing feel for , he certainly tuned into it better than webber

an end of carreer kimi certainly loves the feel and drivability of the present Ferrari maybe more so than seb , but even Ferrari are trying to give vettel a hurry up call , and vettel presently doesn't seem happy and content which seems very evident with seb's radio calls

what has happened? is he losing interest in F1 - certainly the sky team are thinking this and making a lot of seb talking to horner and max's no1 supporter in the paddock


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:08 am 
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slide wrote:
vettel always looked good in a red bull , but nowhere as good in other cars , why is this? was it because of the blown exhaust thingy that he had an amazing feel for , he certainly tuned into it better than webber

an end of carreer kimi certainly loves the feel and drivability of the present Ferrari maybe more so than seb , but even Ferrari are trying to give vettel a hurry up call , and vettel presently doesn't seem happy and content which seems very evident with seb's radio calls

what has happened? is he losing interest in F1 - certainly the sky team are thinking this and making a lot of seb talking to horner and max's no1 supporter in the paddock

I can only presume that you`ve totally missed the 2008 and 2015 seasons then, because...
In 2008 he had all the paddock talking about him during the 2nd half of the season, not only for his Monza win, but also for the other 5 top 6(point scoring) finishes, albeit driving a middle of the grid car like Toro Rosso.
In 2015 he had a great season driving for Ferrari, and the majority of the fans(at least in this forum, who isnt particularly known as a "Vettel-worshipping" place) as well as a considerable part of the paddock chose Vettel as the "driver of the season".

As for whats happening to him currently...
I dont think its a case of losing his interest in F1. After a good progress last season, Vettel might just be a bit disillusioned or dishearten seeing that Ferrari not only didnt close up on Mercedes this season, but also Red Bull are now getting in between.

Its been an average 2016 by Vettel so far with 2-3 very costly mistakes of his own on race starts.
But apart from his own mistakes, almost all his other race weekends have been affected by too many mechanical issues and/or wrong strategy calls by Ferrari and while a "hurry up" call towards Vettel(you`d expect more out of a 4 times WDC costing Ferrari 50mil/year) is probably warranted, Ferrari really needs a good shake up from within the garage first.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:16 am 
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slide wrote:
vettel always looked good in a red bull , but nowhere as good in other cars , why is this? was it because of the blown exhaust thingy that he had an amazing feel for , he certainly tuned into it better than webber

an end of carreer kimi certainly loves the feel and drivability of the present Ferrari maybe more so than seb , but even Ferrari are trying to give vettel a hurry up call , and vettel presently doesn't seem happy and content which seems very evident with seb's radio calls

what has happened? is he losing interest in F1 - certainly the sky team are thinking this and making a lot of seb talking to horner and max's no1 supporter in the paddock


Vettel has had 3 seasons out of Red Bull and looked great in 2 of them.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:41 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
I thought the FIA considered the white line itself to be a part of the track - just everything beyond it isn't? Which means that since the white line is what Max's wheel is on, he's [barely] still on track? Not taking one side or the other, just looking at things from the rulebook.

If that's true, then I have to admit he was indeed on the track (well, a few inches of his car at least). I had remembered it as the white line marking the beginning of the off-track portion. I suppose I'll see if I can dig up something definite on that from the FIA's byzantine website!

Okay, got it:

Quote:
27.4 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Okay, that's pretty clear cut. Apparently Max was in fact on track. :thumbup:

OK, I'll refer back to my years of working in Law firms and break down this little tidbit so many people use to support their opinion as to when a driver is within the spirit of the rules in regards to leaving the track and the white lines nonsense, because that is what it is… nonsense.

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

The issue isn't whether or not a driver is legally still within the confines of the track or not, rather, it should be why they are there.

A justifiable reason would be to avoid contact with another car or an accident up ahead, or that they made a mistake and must take evasive action in order to not impede or crash into anyone else. Doing so in order to prevent someone on the prime line from outdoing them is not a justifiable reason and no one should applaud such actions. It's one thing to go over just a wee bit, but it's whole other animal when a driver blatantly places themselves with just a sliver of their car or tires remaining in contact with those lines in order to contend for a position. If there were immovable barriers residing where the white lines do, drivers would be able to remain within the confines of the track 98% of the time and would NEVER do what Max did at Spa. And yes, Drivers bitch and complain about it because they argue they "need" the excess in order to put in the fastest times, but they certainly have no issues respecting those lines in places like Canada and it's infamous Wall of Champions, or at Monaco, or Singapore, or anywhere else they go to where static barriers exist. So to me, arguing that someone is definitely On-track because a sliver of something on their car is still in contact with he white lines is a farce. If over the white lines there was a cliff, any driver going over would go Weeeeeeeee!

The truth of the matter is that drivers have slowly, over the last decade gone out wider each year and it's gotten to a point where someone needs to step in and put an end to it.
The exceeding of track limits by drivers today is what makes it seem as though the current cars are faster than than the V10's but I'm fairly confident if the drivers today remained on track the way we see in that vid they would still be a bit slower than the V10 cars. I say bring back gravel trap or grass instead of the abrasive asphalt they've gone to over the last decade or so and let's see how many fewer off-track excursions we will see. Pretty sure the frequency of those would diminish by 90% or more.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:44 am 
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That's an awful lot of words when you could just have been the bigger man and admitted that your earlier statement was wrong, that Verstappen was on track and there isn't even a shred of doubt upon it.

I understand you don't like the rules, but they are clear at least on this.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:31 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.


As long as a car is legally within bounds of the track, there is no incident of leaving the track, so the above rule is not broken.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:33 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
I thought the FIA considered the white line itself to be a part of the track - just everything beyond it isn't? Which means that since the white line is what Max's wheel is on, he's [barely] still on track? Not taking one side or the other, just looking at things from the rulebook.

If that's true, then I have to admit he was indeed on the track (well, a few inches of his car at least). I had remembered it as the white line marking the beginning of the off-track portion. I suppose I'll see if I can dig up something definite on that from the FIA's byzantine website!

Okay, got it:

Quote:
27.4 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Okay, that's pretty clear cut. Apparently Max was in fact on track. :thumbup:

OK, I'll refer back to my years of working in Law firms and break down this little tidbit so many people use to support their opinion as to when a driver is within the spirit of the rules in regards to leaving the track and the white lines nonsense, because that is what it is… nonsense.

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

The issue isn't whether or not a driver is legally still within the confines of the track or not, rather, it should be why they are there.

A justifiable reason would be to avoid contact with another car or an accident up ahead, or that they made a mistake and must take evasive action in order to not impede or crash into anyone else. Doing so in order to prevent someone on the prime line from outdoing them is not a justifiable reason and no one should applaud such actions. It's one thing to go over just a wee bit, but it's whole other animal when a driver blatantly places themselves with just a sliver of their car or tires remaining in contact with those lines in order to contend for a position. If there were immovable barriers residing where the white lines do, drivers would be able to remain within the confines of the track 98% of the time and would NEVER do what Max did at Spa. And yes, Drivers bitch and complain about it because they argue they "need" the excess in order to put in the fastest times, but they certainly have no issues respecting those lines in places like Canada and it's infamous Wall of Champions, or at Monaco, or Singapore, or anywhere else they go to where static barriers exist. So to me, arguing that someone is definitely On-track because a sliver of something on their car is still in contact with he white lines is a farce. If over the white lines there was a cliff, any driver going over would go Weeeeeeeee!

The truth of the matter is that drivers have slowly, over the last decade gone out wider each year and it's gotten to a point where someone needs to step in and put an end to it.
The exceeding of track limits by drivers today is what makes it seem as though the current cars are faster than than the V10's but I'm fairly confident if the drivers today remained on track the way we see in that vid they would still be a bit slower than the V10 cars. I say bring back gravel trap or grass instead of the abrasive asphalt they've gone to over the last decade or so and let's see how many fewer off-track excursions we will see. Pretty sure the frequency of those would diminish by 90% or more.

I don't think that's right. If a driver is still within the confines of the track, not matter how tenuously, then the reason why doesn't even come into play. And since in this case it's been established that the driver was on the white lines and therefore within the boundaries as defined by the rules, why they were there is redundant.

I don't think you can use motive when it comes to motor racing (or, indeed, competitive sport). Drivers will always be seeking an edge and using as much of the track as possible. You can only judge on whether they have exceeded the limits


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
I thought the FIA considered the white line itself to be a part of the track - just everything beyond it isn't? Which means that since the white line is what Max's wheel is on, he's [barely] still on track? Not taking one side or the other, just looking at things from the rulebook.

If that's true, then I have to admit he was indeed on the track (well, a few inches of his car at least). I had remembered it as the white line marking the beginning of the off-track portion. I suppose I'll see if I can dig up something definite on that from the FIA's byzantine website!

Okay, got it:

Quote:
27.4 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Okay, that's pretty clear cut. Apparently Max was in fact on track. :thumbup:

OK, I'll refer back to my years of working in Law firms and break down this little tidbit so many people use to support their opinion as to when a driver is within the spirit of the rules in regards to leaving the track and the white lines nonsense, because that is what it is… nonsense.

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

The issue isn't whether or not a driver is legally still within the confines of the track or not, rather, it should be why they are there.

A justifiable reason would be to avoid contact with another car or an accident up ahead, or that they made a mistake and must take evasive action in order to not impede or crash into anyone else. Doing so in order to prevent someone on the prime line from outdoing them is not a justifiable reason and no one should applaud such actions. It's one thing to go over just a wee bit, but it's whole other animal when a driver blatantly places themselves with just a sliver of their car or tires remaining in contact with those lines in order to contend for a position. If there were immovable barriers residing where the white lines do, drivers would be able to remain within the confines of the track 98% of the time and would NEVER do what Max did at Spa. And yes, Drivers bitch and complain about it because they argue they "need" the excess in order to put in the fastest times, but they certainly have no issues respecting those lines in places like Canada and it's infamous Wall of Champions, or at Monaco, or Singapore, or anywhere else they go to where static barriers exist. So to me, arguing that someone is definitely On-track because a sliver of something on their car is still in contact with he white lines is a farce. If over the white lines there was a cliff, any driver going over would go Weeeeeeeee!

The truth of the matter is that drivers have slowly, over the last decade gone out wider each year and it's gotten to a point where someone needs to step in and put an end to it.
The exceeding of track limits by drivers today is what makes it seem as though the current cars are faster than than the V10's but I'm fairly confident if the drivers today remained on track the way we see in that vid they would still be a bit slower than the V10 cars. I say bring back gravel trap or grass instead of the abrasive asphalt they've gone to over the last decade or so and let's see how many fewer off-track excursions we will see. Pretty sure the frequency of those would diminish by 90% or more.

I don't think that's right. If a driver is still within the confines of the track, not matter how tenuously, then the reason why doesn't even come into play. And since in this case it's been established that the driver was on the white lines and therefore within the boundaries as defined by the rules, why they were there is redundant.

I don't think you can use motive when it comes to motor racing (or, indeed, competitive sport). Drivers will always be seeking an edge and using [b]as much of the track as possible.[/b] You can only judge on whether they have exceeded the limits

There again is the flaw in this flawed opinion… 99.99% of the car is off the track completely so how can this be spun or thought as using as much OF THE TRACK as possible? It's not. Again, Place a wall there and revisit that mindset.

This doesn't happen when a driver remains within the confines of the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUupyVCTPjQ

Whomever conjured up the whole "A car is deemed to have left the track when none of it's 4 wheels remain in contact with the track" out to be taken out back and beaten with a cattle prod. It's absurd. The Rumble strips on the apexes and exits of corners are designed as they are to ensure cars don't exceed track limits but they've managed to push past them more an more each year and it seems it's never enough. In the early to mid 2000's cars would drive right up on the rumble strips and you'd hear the Rrrrrrumble on most every apex or exit, but today they drive so far over, the bottom of the car rides over the kerbs. And the cars are today are far quieter by comparison.

In the end, as with religion, folks tend to interpret things however they see fit to support what they want to believe.

In this case, the absurdity in the way Track Limits are described is the issue, but it should not give drivers free reign to drive with their entire car exceeding the white lines so long as the shadow of their car is casting over and onto the track.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:47 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
I thought the FIA considered the white line itself to be a part of the track - just everything beyond it isn't? Which means that since the white line is what Max's wheel is on, he's [barely] still on track? Not taking one side or the other, just looking at things from the rulebook.

If that's true, then I have to admit he was indeed on the track (well, a few inches of his car at least). I had remembered it as the white line marking the beginning of the off-track portion. I suppose I'll see if I can dig up something definite on that from the FIA's byzantine website!

Okay, got it:

Quote:
27.4 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Okay, that's pretty clear cut. Apparently Max was in fact on track. :thumbup:

OK, I'll refer back to my years of working in Law firms and break down this little tidbit so many people use to support their opinion as to when a driver is within the spirit of the rules in regards to leaving the track and the white lines nonsense, because that is what it is… nonsense.

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

The issue isn't whether or not a driver is legally still within the confines of the track or not, rather, it should be why they are there.

A justifiable reason would be to avoid contact with another car or an accident up ahead, or that they made a mistake and must take evasive action in order to not impede or crash into anyone else. Doing so in order to prevent someone on the prime line from outdoing them is not a justifiable reason and no one should applaud such actions. It's one thing to go over just a wee bit, but it's whole other animal when a driver blatantly places themselves with just a sliver of their car or tires remaining in contact with those lines in order to contend for a position. If there were immovable barriers residing where the white lines do, drivers would be able to remain within the confines of the track 98% of the time and would NEVER do what Max did at Spa. And yes, Drivers bitch and complain about it because they argue they "need" the excess in order to put in the fastest times, but they certainly have no issues respecting those lines in places like Canada and it's infamous Wall of Champions, or at Monaco, or Singapore, or anywhere else they go to where static barriers exist. So to me, arguing that someone is definitely On-track because a sliver of something on their car is still in contact with he white lines is a farce. If over the white lines there was a cliff, any driver going over would go Weeeeeeeee!

The truth of the matter is that drivers have slowly, over the last decade gone out wider each year and it's gotten to a point where someone needs to step in and put an end to it.
The exceeding of track limits by drivers today is what makes it seem as though the current cars are faster than than the V10's but I'm fairly confident if the drivers today remained on track the way we see in that vid they would still be a bit slower than the V10 cars. I say bring back gravel trap or grass instead of the abrasive asphalt they've gone to over the last decade or so and let's see how many fewer off-track excursions we will see. Pretty sure the frequency of those would diminish by 90% or more.

I don't think that's right. If a driver is still within the confines of the track, not matter how tenuously, then the reason why doesn't even come into play. And since in this case it's been established that the driver was on the white lines and therefore within the boundaries as defined by the rules, why they were there is redundant.

I don't think you can use motive when it comes to motor racing (or, indeed, competitive sport). Drivers will always be seeking an edge and using [b]as much of the track as possible.[/b] You can only judge on whether they have exceeded the limits

There again is the flaw in this flawed opinion… 99.99% of the car is off the track completely so how can this be spun or thought as using as much OF THE TRACK as possible? It's not. Again, Place a wall there and revisit that mindset.

This doesn't happen when a driver remains within the confines of the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUupyVCTPjQ

Whomever conjured up the whole "A car is deemed to have left the track when none of it's 4 wheels remain in contact with the track" out to be taken out back and beaten with a cattle prod. It's absurd. The Rumble strips on the apexes and exits of corners are designed as they are to ensure cars don't exceed track limits but they've managed to push past them more an more each year and it seems it's never enough. In the early to mid 2000's cars would drive right up on the rumble strips and you'd hear the Rrrrrrumble on most every apex or exit, but today they drive so far over, the bottom of the car rides over the kerbs. And the cars are today are far quieter by comparison.

In the end, as with religion, folks tend to interpret things however they see fit to support what they want to believe.

In this case, the absurdity in the way Track Limits are described is the issue, but it should not give drivers free reign to drive with their entire car exceeding the white lines so long as the shadow of their car is casting over and onto the track.

I don't agree with the "place a wall" argument. If that was the principle then the rules would state that all of the car must be within the white lines at all times, but that's not the case. As long as the rules stand as they are, then a driver cannot be penalised for the situation outlined above. Motive doesn't come into it. If the rules change and they do it, then you have a case against them, but you can't punish someone on the basis that you don't like it


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:40 pm 
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So by that point of view, WHY have white or ANY lines denoting the "Confines" of the track at all? I mean if they are free to exceed them literally all around the track 100%, what's the point? For that just smooth out a giant piece of land and cover it in asphalt and let drivers start on one end and do whatever they please as they make their way all the way to the finish line on the other side.

It's a cop out to defend drivers who purposely exceed track limits because remaining withing the track limits causes them to go slower or they couldn't otherwise challenge for or defend position.. As I said, it needs to be revisited so they can throw out that rule altogether because it contradicts the layout of the track and it's confines. Tracks have specific shapes, angles, elevation changes and undulations that were purposely engineered into their makeup and driving around or beyond them means you're not doing the best you can on said track.

Bring back gravel traps and grass all around tracks and I can guarantee Drivers going as far out wide as they do right now will be the exception and not the rule. Give them driveable surface and a rule that allows them to push their luck further and drivers will not respect proper track limits/bounds.

It's so excessively abused they modified the rule for qualifying and quite retardedly so.

Anyhow, I'm off for the weekend to begin building my boat with my brother in law! Hope you all have a wonderful weekend!

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:03 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So by that point of view, WHY have white or ANY lines denoting the "Confines" of the track at all? I mean if they are free to exceed them literally all around the track 100%, what's the point? For that just smooth out a giant piece of land and cover it in asphalt and let drivers start on one end and do whatever they please as they make their way all the way to the finish line on the other side.

It's a cop out to defend drivers who purposely exceed track limits because remaining withing the track limits causes them to go slower or they couldn't otherwise challenge for or defend position.. As I said, it needs to be revisited so they can throw out that rule altogether because it contradicts the layout of the track and it's confines. Tracks have specific shapes, angles, elevation changes and undulations that were purposely engineered into their makeup and driving around or beyond them means you're not doing the best you can on said track.

Bring back gravel traps and grass all around tracks and I can guarantee Drivers going as far out wide as they do right now will be the exception and not the rule. Give them driveable surface and a rule that allows them to push their luck further and drivers will not respect proper track limits/bounds.

It's so excessively abused they modified the rule for qualifying and quite retardedly so.

Anyhow, I'm off for the weekend to begin building my boat with my brother in law! Hope you all have a wonderful weekend!

Your anger should be directed at the rule makers, not the drivers. As already mentioned, in the example that started this debate the driver did not break the rules as written, therefore there are no grounds to sanction him. Drivers will always push the boundaries, both literally and figuratively, in the quest for maximum performance. That's what they are paid to do. They can't be blamed for that


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:59 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So by that point of view, WHY have white or ANY lines denoting the "Confines" of the track at all? I mean if they are free to exceed them literally all around the track 100%, what's the point? For that just smooth out a giant piece of land and cover it in asphalt and let drivers start on one end and do whatever they please as they make their way all the way to the finish line on the other side.


Bit of a dramatization, this. They have to remain on track, so they have to follow the layout around.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:15 pm 
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Surprised more is not being made of this. I think Vettel caused another first corner accident on Sunday, and by again trying to sweep across to the apex ignoring the possibility of someone being on his inside.

Quote from Hulk - "It’s really disappointing to have another first lap retirement. I just ran out of space going into turn one because I got sandwiched between Valtteri on my left and Sebastian on the right.
Sebastian turned in quite aggressively, made contact with me, and that pushed me into Valtteri. I think it could have been avoided if Sebastian had given us a bit more space."


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:46 pm 
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someone should tell him the race is not won on the first corner-but I do get it , his career/titles and his ability to drive newy's tyre exhaust working with the aero system better than webber, did not give too much of thse first corner confrontations given with the fact that he's over driving at the start desperately trying to make up some places , where vettel is at his best at the front where he can ride off into the distance


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:56 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Surprised more is not being made of this. I think Vettel caused another first corner accident on Sunday, and by again trying to sweep across to the apex ignoring the possibility of someone being on his inside.

Quote from Hulk - "It’s really disappointing to have another first lap retirement. I just ran out of space going into turn one because I got sandwiched between Valtteri on my left and Sebastian on the right.
Sebastian turned in quite aggressively, made contact with me, and that pushed me into Valtteri. I think it could have been avoided if Sebastian had given us a bit more space."

Yes, his opening laps are starting to follow a bit of a pattern...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:26 pm 
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6 first corner incidents in 2 years (7 if you include Mexico 2015). Most of these incidents have involved Verstappen and Kimi.

So what is wrong with Vettel? Why can he not keep his nose clean? He's an experienced driver now yet he sometimes looks like a rookie on the opening lap. Maldonado would be proud!

He seems to have a problem with Max Verstappen, and is very desperate to not let him pass at the start, to the point that he ends up risking everything. He is also very aggressive when Kimi tries to pass him at the start.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:38 pm 
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It's definitely and issue he needs to deal with. It's odd because until 2016 it's never been something he has a problem with.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:41 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
6 first corner incidents in 2 years (7 if you include Mexico 2015). Most of these incidents have involved Verstappen and Kimi.

So what is wrong with Vettel? Why can he not keep his nose clean? He's an experienced driver now yet he sometimes looks like a rookie on the opening lap. Maldonado would be proud!

He seems to have a problem with Max Verstappen, and is very desperate to not let him pass at the start, to the point that he ends up risking everything. He is also very aggressive when Kimi tries to pass him at the start.

I've just happened upon this thread, I didn't realise all the first corner incidents he's been involved in, the basics being that he simply doesn't give drivers enough room.

Hamilton was supposed to be the driver with all the flaws but this season has shown Vettel has plenty of his own, next season is going to be interesting between Vettel and Verstappen, I think that both Singapore and Mexico are just a prelude to what is to come.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:47 pm 
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Vettel was always at his most dominant when he was out in front, I just wonder if that has become his "holy grail" and he feels he has to be in front to win races?

He has made some spectacular recoveries but how many times has he come from behind to win?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:23 am 
Vettel had this problem in the Toro Rosso days. He went out on the first lap due to accidents in 3 of the first 4 races in 2008. That is more times than Hamilton in his entire career in a 4 race period.

I think his start this time was fair enough, the biggest error was the switch back he attempted going into turn 2 - it was obvious Verstappen was going to occupy that bit of space. Turn 1 he did well to hang Max out (right on the limit of the rules as he was behind) and turn 3 was kind of desperation. I think if Verstapen did what Vettel did at turns 1,2 and 3 - it would have been a penalty, but maybe needing a nose was a penalty enough. F1 management didn't want to kill the title stone dead and we all know title contenders get special treatment unless your name is Juan Pablo Montoya.

I have said it all season, starting in P2 or P3 on the racing line is better or at least as good as pole at tracks with a long run to the first corner. These tyres are so huge and the cars so draggy, the slipstream affect this year is the largest ever I am sure.

We have seen Vettel get Hamilton in Spain, Bottas get Vettel in Russia and now Max get Vettel in Mexico. Vettel has been somewhat unlucky in that 2 of his 4 poles have fallen on tracks with a longest run to turn 1. Hamilton got a bit lucky in Malaysia (anther long run) as Kimi who was starting P2 did not start. Hamilton also got a bit lucky in China too, because Vettels side of the grid was wetter. Spa, Hamilton was saved by using more of his ERS power at the Kemmel straight, something the Ferrari isn't capable of yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:23 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
So, yet another first corner incident caused by Vettel, and this time it ended his race.

What is going on with Seb? He looked impressive in 2015 where he had a bit of a honeymoon period with his new team, but this year he has been involved in these incidents, he has Kimi breathing down his neck, and judging from his team radio, he seems very frustrated.


I think MB said it perfectly. It seems pressure has been getting to him. This season there has been more moaning (especially blue flags). He had that major outburst when HE made the mistake and then decided to drive in to Lewis. He seems almost desperate to win.

I think deep down he knows this season was his biggest shot at the title. Remove the reliability and his racing mistakes/accidents.. I wonder where he would be now on the score board.. possibly still sitting 1st or just a few points behind Lewis. It's another reason Max is getting praise.... he is 20 years old yet the 4 time world champion seems to be having the 'off' year. Lewis had his real off year in 2011 where he made rookie mistakes which cost him valuable points.

Vettel has also had some serious outburst on the radio aimed at anyone and everyone. In the winter Ferrari will need to sit down and talk to him.. especially if they have another race winning car next year. Perhaps they are not helping.. considering they were quick to blame other drivers for mistakes while being very tight lipped on Vettel.. sometimes you need to stop protecting the drivers... it creates a severe delusion they can do no wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:26 am 
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A lot of sense there Teddy007. I think Ferrari are aware that Vettel can be petulant, I thought that the radio message at the weekend when Vettel complained that other drivers were behaving like they were at driving school said a lot. It was a bit of an inappropriate rant but the speed with which it was replied to on the radio with, "keep focused" seemed to indicate they were worried he might become obsessed.

I just wonder how next season will pan out will he start like this season or has he admitted defeat?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:31 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
6 first corner incidents in 2 years (7 if you include Mexico 2015). Most of these incidents have involved Verstappen and Kimi.

So what is wrong with Vettel? Why can he not keep his nose clean? He's an experienced driver now yet he sometimes looks like a rookie on the opening lap. Maldonado would be proud!

He seems to have a problem with Max Verstappen, and is very desperate to not let him pass at the start, to the point that he ends up risking everything. He is also very aggressive when Kimi tries to pass him at the start.

I've just happened upon this thread, I didn't realise all the first corner incidents he's been involved in, the basics being that he simply doesn't give drivers enough room.

Hamilton was supposed to be the driver with all the flaws but this season has shown Vettel has plenty of his own, next season is going to be interesting between Vettel and Verstappen, I think that both Singapore and Mexico are just a prelude to what is to come.


I'm not sure where people get this. It's always been the opposite for me. When Vettel was in RB I always though (and alot of other too!) that it's mostly the car. Just wait until he doesn't have the car advantage. Then we got 2014, he got dominated by a rookie, in 2016 he was scruffy, and in 2017 he was brilliant at the start of the season when the car was dominant, then you apply some pressure on him from Mercedes and Hamilton and look what happens, return of the crashkid!

Now, this if very harsh and not deserved because he is a great driver, the 5th best on the grid atm (imo). Alonso and Hamilton has since 2007 always been the top 2.
Up until 2014 neither of them had the car to prove it and always had to fight Vettel in inferior machinery and sometimes took the fight to him anyway. Vettel hasn't done the same when not in a dominant or equal best car.

There. /Rant.

Edit: This season Hamilton has been the definition of consistency, same in 2012, yet people can't give him a break.
He is one of the fastest over one lap, he has (now) equal or better racecraft than Alonso, and he has (now) the consistency. He is the complete package.
Perhaps it is time to say he is the #1 driver atm, I've always said Alonso.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:48 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
It's easy to pee on the wounded lion.


More like a kitteh, but ok.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:07 pm 
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I think he can't handle Verstappen being close to him. Rosberg had the same problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Vettel threw away one certain and two possible wins by two stupid mistakes and one overly risky manoeuvre. By any accounts, this is not a good championship campaign at all.

The additional problem is that they have no second driver to jump in when Vettel - who without doubt has speed - messes up. But that is entirely of their own making.

Unbelievable that they did not manage to win a single race since the summer break when they had the car potential to win all of them (maybe except Monza - but what if they had nailed wet qualifying ...?). A mistake-prone lead driver, an incompetent number two and some reliability issues meant a complete failure so far ...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:41 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Vettel threw away one certain and two possible wins by two stupid mistakes and one overly risky manoeuvre. By any accounts, this is not a good championship campaign at all.

The additional problem is that they have no second driver to jump in when Vettel - who without doubt has speed - messes up. But that is entirely of their own making.

Unbelievable that they did not manage to win a single race since the summer break when they had the car potential to win all of them (maybe except Monza - but what if they had nailed wet qualifying ...?). A mistake-prone lead driver, an incompetent number two and some reliability issues meant a complete failure so far ...

I'm curious as to what you think Vettel could possibly have done differently at Spa, for example?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:42 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Vettel threw away one certain and two possible wins by two stupid mistakes and one overly risky manoeuvre. By any accounts, this is not a good championship campaign at all.

The additional problem is that they have no second driver to jump in when Vettel - who without doubt has speed - messes up. But that is entirely of their own making.

Unbelievable that they did not manage to win a single race since the summer break when they had the car potential to win all of them (maybe except Monza - but what if they had nailed wet qualifying ...?). A mistake-prone lead driver, an incompetent number two and some reliability issues meant a complete failure so far ...

They could have been 1-2 in Monza and still wouldn't have won.

Merc's unstoppable.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:38 am 
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I just say to those arguing at the track limits rules - SANDTRAPS (many of these drivers would be OUT - multiple times a race) - and the comment about Austin - if it was grass, would Max have been there - err, absolutely no - or he'd have crashed into KR and either put both out or been penalised more

It was a good effort - and we want to see that - but let's not get blinded by safety improvements and actually think that justifies what was done - or many of the efforts of a range of drivers who would have crashed in years past


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Vettel threw away one certain and two possible wins by two stupid mistakes and one overly risky manoeuvre. By any accounts, this is not a good championship campaign at all.

The additional problem is that they have no second driver to jump in when Vettel - who without doubt has speed - messes up. But that is entirely of their own making.

Unbelievable that they did not manage to win a single race since the summer break when they had the car potential to win all of them (maybe except Monza - but what if they had nailed wet qualifying ...?). A mistake-prone lead driver, an incompetent number two and some reliability issues meant a complete failure so far ...

I'm curious as to what you think Vettel could possibly have done differently at Spa, for example?


Nothing. But he was in for a shout for the win, so why do you ask? An exellent Vettel drive just did not yield the win because of a brilliant Hamilton manoeuvre. You can lose a race like Spa despite having the car potential to win. But Singapore, Mexico, Baku (before the summer break) as well as Sepang, Suzuka ...
Of course, it would help Ferrari's case to have a competitive second driver. That's why I absolutely do not understand why Ferrari keeps resigning Räikkönen (other than the theory that it is to please/appease Vettel).

Don't you agree that it is embarrassing that Ferrari did not score a single victory after the summer break so far?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Vettel threw away one certain and two possible wins by two stupid mistakes and one overly risky manoeuvre. By any accounts, this is not a good championship campaign at all.

The additional problem is that they have no second driver to jump in when Vettel - who without doubt has speed - messes up. But that is entirely of their own making.

Unbelievable that they did not manage to win a single race since the summer break when they had the car potential to win all of them (maybe except Monza - but what if they had nailed wet qualifying ...?). A mistake-prone lead driver, an incompetent number two and some reliability issues meant a complete failure so far ...

They could have been 1-2 in Monza and still wouldn't have won.

Merc's unstoppable.


Maybe you are right, maybe not. We will never know for sure. I would have loved to see it, it would have been a much better race IMO.

In any case, by messing up wet qualifying (where they did not suffer any disadvantage), they messed up their chances for sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Don't you agree that it is embarrassing that Ferrari did not score a single victory after the summer break so far?


Yes. Especially considering that it's 1) reliability 2) driver errors, that have resulted in losing them or "could have". Thought I would add the "could" because people don't think some one sitting in 1st midway through the race from the start with the race pace doesn't mean they will "most likely" win it... even though most races this season have been won that bar mistakes/reliability....

You look at Honda, like it or not but one of their biggest hindrances this year has been reliability. Penalty in qualifying which results starting at the back. Failures in the race which results in DNFs.

Even Lewis has had no DNFs this year and a win = 25 whopping points.

2016 Lewis had only 1 DNF more than Nico - one being that popular in 1st and a mile away from everyone - BAM. Huge dent in the title. It's why F1 is so great at times, DNFs and mistakes can turn a title upside down. I honestly believed Vettel would get it this year. Ferrari seemed like they had the racing package, race starts and reliability with a car capable of some what competing in qualifying.

Ferrari and Vettel dropped this title. At least it should have gone down to the wire. You only have to look at RBR - their reliability/quali pace has really hampered them and some said it all along - now in Mexico Max gives Ferrari and Merc the run around.

Merc surprisingly have been the reliable team in 2017 and not causing big costly mistakes.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Vettel threw away one certain and two possible wins by two stupid mistakes and one overly risky manoeuvre. By any accounts, this is not a good championship campaign at all.

The additional problem is that they have no second driver to jump in when Vettel - who without doubt has speed - messes up. But that is entirely of their own making.

Unbelievable that they did not manage to win a single race since the summer break when they had the car potential to win all of them (maybe except Monza - but what if they had nailed wet qualifying ...?). A mistake-prone lead driver, an incompetent number two and some reliability issues meant a complete failure so far ...

I'm curious as to what you think Vettel could possibly have done differently at Spa, for example?


Nothing. But he was in for a shout for the win, so why do you ask? An exellent Vettel drive just did not yield the win because of a brilliant Hamilton manoeuvre. You can lose a race like Spa despite having the car potential to win. But Singapore, Mexico, Baku (before the summer break) as well as Sepang, Suzuka ...
Of course, it would help Ferrari's case to have a competitive second driver. That's why I absolutely do not understand why Ferrari keeps resigning Räikkönen (other than the theory that it is to please/appease Vettel).

Don't you agree that it is embarrassing that Ferrari did not score a single victory after the summer break so far?

well he wasn't really in with a shout if you say there's nothing he could have done?

I also don't really get why they extended Kimi this year, although I strongly suspect it was to give them options for when the Red Bull pairing became available. But I agree he's not doing the seat much justice overall

I think Ferrari should have had a victory in Singapore and Malaysia, but their bad luck came at the worst possible time for them and handed Lewis what were effectively bonus points for the season. I'm not convinced they would have had a realistic chance elsewhere. Possibly Japan, but that's pure guesswork. The Mercs certainly had plenty in hand in qualifying so it's by no means a cert. Mexico is another possible, although Verstappen looked immensely strong there. But overall the only races where you could hand on heart say they had a realistic chance were Singapore and Malaysia

I agree Ferrari have reason to be embarrassed about the mechanical issues they had, although if I understand things correctly Mercedes had an identical spark plug issue but it showed up earlier and they were able to tackle it on the grid in time. I think luck played a part there, too


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Don't you agree that it is embarrassing that Ferrari did not score a single victory after the summer break so far?


Yes. Especially considering that it's 1) reliability 2) driver errors, that have resulted in losing them or "could have". Thought I would add the "could" because people don't think some one sitting in 1st midway through the race from the start with the race pace doesn't mean they will "most likely" win it... even though most races this season have been won that bar mistakes/reliability....

You look at Honda, like it or not but one of their biggest hindrances this year has been reliability. Penalty in qualifying which results starting at the back. Failures in the race which results in DNFs.

Even Lewis has had no DNFs this year and a win = 25 whopping points.

2016 Lewis had only 1 DNF more than Nico - one being that popular in 1st and a mile away from everyone - BAM. Huge dent in the title. It's why F1 is so great at times, DNFs and mistakes can turn a title upside down. I honestly believed Vettel would get it this year. Ferrari seemed like they had the racing package, race starts and reliability with a car capable of some what competing in qualifying.

Ferrari and Vettel dropped this title. At least it should have gone down to the wire. You only have to look at RBR - their reliability/quali pace has really hampered them and some said it all along - now in Mexico Max gives Ferrari and Merc the run around.

Merc surprisingly have been the reliable team in 2017 and not causing big costly mistakes.


What I find even more mind boggling and embarrassing for Ferrari is that they haven't won a race after the summer break - since 2010.

It clearly points towards something.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:13 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Vettel had this problem in the Toro Rosso days. He went out on the first lap due to accidents in 3 of the first 4 races in 2008. That is more times than Hamilton in his entire career in a 4 race period.


this is a pointless statistic. if you think about it, the 2008 and toro rosso would be starting much deeper in the pack therefore much more susceptible to being caught up in first corner incidents with out taking into account a rookie at the time Vettel. even so comparing that to Hamilton who's entire career has been started largely on the front 3 rows of the grid is even more ridiculous. Mainly because it is so much easier to avoid contact at the front and not mid pack surrounded by cars.

#nonsensestats


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:33 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
What I find even more mind boggling and embarrassing for Ferrari is that they haven't won a race after the summer break - since 2010.

It clearly points towards something.
That is quite mind-boggling. I'd speculate that 2010 - 2013 may have largely been about Red Bull updates (though I haven't taken the trouble to determine how many races RB have won, post-break, over that period), and 2014-16 has been all about Mercedes, but not a single (post-break) win..?

Edit: Vettel won in Singapore in 2015, in the Ferrari. RB dominated the second half of the season in 2010-2013, with the exception of sharing 4 wins each with McLaren in 2012. Mercedes have been dominant since then, with Red Bull picking up scraps and that sole win, as stated above, for Ferrari.

Ferrari have been behind the ball until this year, and it is the recent races in which the team has arguably been the most wasteful in terms of opportunity.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
A lot of sense there Teddy007. I think Ferrari are aware that Vettel can be petulant, I thought that the radio message at the weekend when Vettel complained that other drivers were behaving like they were at driving school said a lot. It was a bit of an inappropriate rant but the speed with which it was replied to on the radio with, "keep focused" seemed to indicate they were worried he might become obsessed.

I just wonder how next season will pan out will he start like this season or has he admitted defeat?


I seem to recall a similar thing with Alonso on Hamilton for a couple of seasons - he was so focused on Lewis at the time it seemed. (Valencia springs to mind, the pit exit thing.. I think it was Valencia)

As soon as he'd let it go, Fernando was far more relaxed.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
A lot of sense there Teddy007. I think Ferrari are aware that Vettel can be petulant, I thought that the radio message at the weekend when Vettel complained that other drivers were behaving like they were at driving school said a lot. It was a bit of an inappropriate rant but the speed with which it was replied to on the radio with, "keep focused" seemed to indicate they were worried he might become obsessed.

I just wonder how next season will pan out will he start like this season or has he admitted defeat?


I seem to recall a similar thing with Alonso on Hamilton for a couple of seasons - he was so focused on Lewis at the time it seemed. (Valencia springs to mind, the pit exit thing.. I think it was Valencia)

As soon as he'd let it go, Fernando was far more relaxed.


Yeah, it was Valencia. I remember he also used to ask where Hamilton was in every race, or something to that effect.


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