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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:58 pm 
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Head to head:

2012: Vettel: 11, Webber 9
2014: Vettel 7, Ricciardo 12
2016: Vettel 10, Kimi 9 (so far)

Given how much praise he gets for his qualifying, is he really as good as he's made out to be? To me it seems that he's clearly no better than the other top guys out there like Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg, Ricciardo, Verstappen.

For the record, i'm not saying he's bad qualifer, far from it, but just that all those pole positions in the rocketship Red Bulls have made him appear to be a better qualifier than he actually is.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:59 pm 
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My initial thought is it took you surprisingly long to post this


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:12 pm 
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Another thread having a dig at Vettel?

Why not post the full stats rather than cherry picking his worst years?

It's almost like you're doing the thing I'm not allowed to accuse you of. You can't be obviously, because that's against the rules too.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:14 pm 
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What you've proven is that apparently Vettel is much worse in even-numbered years! :D ;)

Aside from this year however, those numbers were all posted against other qualifying specialists. Webber was a noted qualifier before he was partnered with Vettel, and Ricciardo is considered by some to be the best qualifier on the grid.

Vettel's current performance against Raikkonen is, I think, clear evidence that he is having a very poor season (or more specifically, second half of a season), but it's not enough evidence to debunk him as a good qualifier. Except for Ricciardo, every great qualifier on the grid has lost at least one qualifying battle in their career. It also bears remembering that Kimi is not a bad qualifier himself when he's comfortable in the car.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:18 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Another thread having a dig at Vettel?

Why not post the full stats rather than cherry picking his worst years?

It's almost like you're doing the thing I'm not allowed to accuse you of. You can't be obviously, because that's against the rules too.


You're free to post them if you want.

Something like (feel free to correct)
2009: Vettel 13, Webber 5
2010: Vettel 12, Webber 7
2011: Vettel 17, Webber 3
2013: Vettel 18, Webber 2
2015: Vettel 17, Kimi 3

But i fail to see the relevance here. The question is whether he's an overrated qualifier. I already acknowledged that he's a very good qualifer, as the stats above show.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:27 pm 
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Nah he's one of the best, just look at his comparison last year to Kimi (17-3) vs Alonso's in 2014 (16-3).

Vettel's issue as always is fluctuating form. He struggles when the team/car isn't where he wants it to be, he seems to lose interest & motivation. Maybe Webber was right and he will retire early, then again Webber also said he would win titles at Ferrari so I guess he's backed both horses there.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:28 pm 
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No he's not over rated as a qualifier.

I think he's top-draw and his defence is under rated


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:31 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Nah he's one of the best, just look at his comparison last year to Kimi (17-3) vs Alonso's in 2014 (16-3).

But since we all know Alonso isn't really a very good qualifier, doesn't matching his record against Kimi mean Vettel's not really much of a qualifier either?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
My initial thought is it took you surprisingly long to post this

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:12 pm 
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So going by your stats, since 2009 he is 105 - 50 up in qualifying but he is overrated at qualifying. Yeah makes perfect sense :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:13 pm 
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rivf1 wrote:
So going by your stats, since 2009 he is 105 - 50 up in qualifying but he is overrated at qualifying. Yeah makes perfect sense :lol:


When people say he's the best qualifier on the grid or the "qualifying master" then yeah.

And we know for a fact that Ricciardo is quicker than him over 1 lap. 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:16 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
So going by your stats, since 2009 he is 105 - 50 up in qualifying but he is overrated at qualifying. Yeah makes perfect sense :lol:


When people say he's the best qualifier on the grid or the "qualifying master" then yeah.

And we know for a fact that Ricciardo is quicker than him over 1 lap. 8)

We know for a fact that Ricciardo isn't always quicker than him over 1 lap. :smug:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:02 pm 
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You can not do a thread like this and not consider the gaps to his teammate.

For the sake of a discussion, let say he beat his teammate by .005 Avg, is that a considerable difference?

It will be a good exercise to calculate gaps, maybe that will ge us some reference. We sometimes are to hard on these drivers and call them over rated or has been for gaps that are shorter than a blink of an eye over a 2-3km lap


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
My initial thought is it took you surprisingly long to post this


Me too.....

Vettel must have refused to sign an autograph for heath? Got his sister preggie? I wonder what it is that drives heath to such anti-vettel extremes???
:?:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:50 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
You can not do a thread like this and not consider the gaps to his teammate.

For the sake of a discussion, let say he beat his teammate by .005 Avg, is that a considerable difference?

It will be a good exercise to calculate gaps, maybe that will ge us some reference. We sometimes are to hard on these drivers and call them over rated or has been for gaps that are shorter than a blink of an eye over a 2-3km lap

What you're saying is sound in theory, but the truth is that you will never get a situation where the qualifying head to head (adjusted for wet sessions and mechanical failures) is lopsided but the average is tight. If the average is almost equal, you'll get an almost equal performance over the course of a season.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:58 pm 
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Another week, another thread to question ettel's reputation while reporting people for pointing that out.

Presumably I should give myself a ban for saying this though.

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