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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:27 pm 
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Pino Alievi (Gazzetta dello Sport, 35 years in F1)

1 Alonso

2 Hamilton

3 Rosberg

4 Ricciardo

5 Vettel



Mark Hughes (Motorsport Magazine, 17 years in F1)

1 Alonso

2 Ricciardo

3 Hamilton

4 Vettel

5 Verstappen



Andrew Benson (BBC Sports, 20 years in F1)

1 Alonso

1 Hamilton

3 Ricciardo

4 Vettel

5 Rosberg



James Allen (Financial Times, 23 years in F1)

1 Hamilton

2 Ricciardo

3 Alonso

4 Vettel

5 Rosberg



Livio Oricchio (Globosporte, 27 years in F1)

1 Alonso

2 Hamilton

3 Vettel

4 Rosberg

5 Riccciardo



Michael Schmidt (Auto motor und sport, 35 years in F1)

1 Alonso

2 Hamilton

3 Vettel

4 Ricciardo

5 Rosberg



J. M. Rubio (Autopista/ Marca, 40 years in F1)

1 Alonso

2 Hamilton

3 Pérez

4 Sainz

5 Verstappen



Juan Fossaroli (FOX Sports, 20 years in F1)

1 Alonso

2 Hamilton

3 Ricciardo

4 Vettel

5 Pérez



Frederic Ferret (L´Equipe, 14 years in F1)

1 Alonso

2 Hamilton

3 Rosberg

4 Vettel

5 Sainz

http://motor.as.com/motor/2016/10/27/formula_1/1477534410_029992.html

Not winning a title in +10 years and still considered the best, this guys must be very special or the journos love him!.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:41 pm 
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Mark Hughes for me. Just about spot on.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:43 pm 
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You need the right equipment to win the title. I'd suggest that those journalists putting Rosberg above the likes of Ricciardo or Vettel have probably forgotten that.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:46 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
You need the right equipment to win the title. I'd suggest that those journalists putting Rosberg above the likes of Ricciardo or Vettel have probably forgotten that.


Yes. I find it astonishing how "top" journalists and even team principles when they do there list at the end of the year can be more car blind than most forum members. I think anyone putting Rosberg in the top 5 have somewhat been taken in.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:24 pm 
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The one thing in Rosberg's favour is his single lap pace vs Hamilton holds up extremely well.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Of course Andrew Benson was the only surveyed journalist to pick two number one drivers, and of course he refused to get off the fence and pick between Alonso and Hamilton (if there was a rolleyes smiley, I would add it here).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:14 pm 
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Robot wrote:
Not winning a title in +10 years and still considered the best, this guys must be very special or the journos love him!.

I think you only need to see his onboards to see why he's the best.
I've seen no one else do what he does.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:42 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Of course Andrew Benson was the only surveyed journalist to pick two number one drivers, and of course he refused to get off the fence and pick between Alonso and Hamilton (if there was a rolleyes smiley, I would add it here).

:uhoh:

there you go! :]


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:12 am 
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I'm very surprised to see Sainz in a few lists. Don't get me wrong I think he's a major talent and someone to watch in the coming years, but can we really put him in top 5 driver lists after 1 3/4 seasons in a Toro Rosso?

I also think the lists show how easily swayed opinions are by the cars these guys drive. I can't see the justification for Rosberg being in most of the lists. It should be Button IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:24 am 
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What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:25 am 
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The day Hamilton will be considered the undisputed #1(so never), you will know the world is ending.

We have a guy in the first position living off his reputation and Ricciardo who is well placed to replace him when he retires.

Put them all in the same car and these journos lists will be spot on like when they tried to predict Hamilton's future at Mercedes. 😆

The only good thing in these lists is Sainz Jr. as I believe on speed alone he would give Ricciardo a much harder time than Verstappen. The only problems he has are his persona(too nice), his psychology(much like Lorenzo in MotoGP) and the fact that his country already has Alonso.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:11 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:47 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


If you considered Alonso the best at the end of 2014 then what has happened that would make you reconsider?

Personally I think Alonso's performances this year have been terrific. Possibly only Ricciardo has done better.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:51 am 
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With the drivers having such different equipment. These lists are hugely subjective. I'd suspect journalists, being around F1 people and paddock, have a good grasp of what is felt around the place.

For me Hamilton, when things are going his way, is very hard to beat. However we have seen a bit of the 'old' Lewis again this season, when things don't go perfect he gets into a bad place, puts a few lesser races together and generally seems to mope. Hamilton also seems to have a career habit of karma biting him on the pickle.

I do feel Ricciardo currently is the best all round package in F1 at the moment. However we haven't seen him in the pressure of a title battle.

Alonso is still Alonso but.... its 4yrs since we last seen him drive something capable of mixing it at the front.

Vettel is having a poor season.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:14 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:

For me Hamilton, when things are going his way, is very hard to beat.


That can be said for every driver on the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:43 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.


Last edited by kleefton on Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:48 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:

The only good thing in these lists is Sainz Jr. as I believe on speed alone he would give Ricciardo a much harder time than Verstappen. The only problems he has are his persona(too nice), his psychology(much like Lorenzo in MotoGP) and the fact that his country already has Alonso.


How can you say that when he was basically equal to Verstappen on one lap pace and inferior on race day when they were teammates?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:26 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.


Button is a very good driver. Nobody is going to beat him in every race of a 21 race season. That expectation is unrealistic.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.


Button is a very good driver. Nobody is going to beat him in every race of a 21 race season. That expectation is unrealistic.


That is not what I am saying or expecting. Fernando has made a mess of things on his own quite a few times this year. The fact he has failed to outclass Button more consistently just adds to my belief he is not the very best on the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:47 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.


Button is a very good driver. Nobody is going to beat him in every race of a 21 race season. That expectation is unrealistic.


That is not what I am saying or expecting. Fernando has made a mess of things on his own quite a few times this year. The fact he has failed to outclass Button more consistently just adds to my belief he is not the very best on the grid.


Now I am confused. In the first sentence you say you don't expect Alonso to always beat Button and then in the last you say the reason you don't think he is the best is because he doesn't always beat Button? You named two races that you remember. Well if that's it then that's a pretty incredible season, to only get beat by a driver of Button's quality twice on merit. I don't think any other driver on the grid could do that.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:47 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.

You mean "over optimistic" overtaking attempt?
If you think the overtake on massa was questionable, you need to go back to check out basic racing rules.
Within the F1 circus, only massa and his engineer think the overtake was not good.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:00 am 
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kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.

Germany was the big one for me. Beaten by JB in qualy (a rarity in 2016) and nowhere close to him in the race. I was massively disappointed in his performance. The ones you've called out have had some incident involved. Germany was different - Alonso just wasn't hitting the mark, unlike his teammate. It wasn't just a bad showing - it was miserable in my book, very much below his usual standard. He has made up for it (and more so) since. But I did fear at the time that he was starting to lose it. It didn't help that it was in and around a period of race-altering issues like Silverstone, Spa and Monza (no matter whether it was team or driver - it was just starting to build up). Difference with Germany was that he was totally outclassed in every department by a guy who's leaving the sport - and that's just not the Fernando Alonso I've watched since the start of his career

Anyway he has 90% restored my faith since then. Monza was another question mark that had me questioning things. But hey, JB is still one of the top drivers IMO - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he should be able to get one over on his higher-rated teammate once in a while

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:14 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Germany was the big one for me. Beaten by JB in qualy (a rarity in 2016) and nowhere close to him in the race. I was massively disappointed in his performance. The ones you've called out have had some incident involved. Germany was different - Alonso just wasn't hitting the mark, unlike his teammate. It wasn't just a bad showing - it was miserable in my book, very much below his usual standard. He has made up for it (and more so) since. But I did fear at the time that he was starting to lose it. It didn't help that it was in and around a period of race-altering issues like Silverstone, Spa and Monza (no matter whether it was team or driver - it was just starting to build up). Difference with Germany was that he was totally outclassed in every department by a guy who's leaving the sport - and that's just not the Fernando Alonso I've watched since the start of his career

Anyway he has 90% restored my faith since then. Monza was another question mark that had me questioning things. But hey, JB is still one of the top drivers IMO - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he should be able to get one over on his higher-rated teammate once in a while

I think something worth noting is that the common factor between Germany and Italy is fuel; on both occasions, Alonso pushed too hard and didn't save enough fuel, forcing him to drop well back of JB and lose time at the end. Bearing in mind that he's been quite vocal against the fuel saving formula on multiple occasions, it seems quite possible this is simply an area he isn't the best at.

Of course, considering how political Alonso is, it's also possible he felt he was doing poorly in those races and decided to throw his fuel mileage out the window to make a point! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:22 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

Now I am confused. In the first sentence you say you don't expect Alonso to always beat Button and then in the last you say the reason you don't think he is the best is because he doesn't always beat Button? You named two races that you remember. Well if that's it then that's a pretty incredible season, to only get beat by a driver of Button's quality twice on merit. I don't think any other driver on the grid could do that.


Jeez...

I said it "adds".

In other words not only has he messed up quite a few races on his own but he has also failed to dominate Button. Hence he can't be called the best driver.

And when I mentioned the ones I recalled I was talking about races which he has messed up on his own, not the ones where Button outpaced him.


Last edited by kleefton on Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:30 am 
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mcdo wrote:
kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.

Germany was the big one for me. Beaten by JB in qualy (a rarity in 2016) and nowhere close to him in the race. I was massively disappointed in his performance. The ones you've called out have had some incident involved. Germany was different - Alonso just wasn't hitting the mark, unlike his teammate. It wasn't just a bad showing - it was miserable in my book, very much below his usual standard. He has made up for it (and more so) since. But I did fear at the time that he was starting to lose it. It didn't help that it was in and around a period of race-altering issues like Silverstone, Spa and Monza (no matter whether it was team or driver - it was just starting to build up). Difference with Germany was that he was totally outclassed in every department by a guy who's leaving the sport - and that's just not the Fernando Alonso I've watched since the start of his career

Anyway he has 90% restored my faith since then. Monza was another question mark that had me questioning things. But hey, JB is still one of the top drivers IMO - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he should be able to get one over on his higher-rated teammate once in a while


Exactly, Germany and Monza were stunning. I don't recall Jenson Button making Lewis Hamilton look like that ever. Really if you look at the whole year you can't say that he has dominated Button in any way.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:47 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.

You mean "over optimistic" overtaking attempt?
If you think the overtake on massa was questionable, you need to go back to check out basic racing rules.
Within the F1 circus, only massa and his engineer think the overtake was not good.


To me what he did to Massa is not too different to what Rosberg did to Kimi in Malaysia.

You are welcome to disagree.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:06 am 
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kleefton wrote:
mcdo wrote:
kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.

Germany was the big one for me. Beaten by JB in qualy (a rarity in 2016) and nowhere close to him in the race. I was massively disappointed in his performance. The ones you've called out have had some incident involved. Germany was different - Alonso just wasn't hitting the mark, unlike his teammate. It wasn't just a bad showing - it was miserable in my book, very much below his usual standard. He has made up for it (and more so) since. But I did fear at the time that he was starting to lose it. It didn't help that it was in and around a period of race-altering issues like Silverstone, Spa and Monza (no matter whether it was team or driver - it was just starting to build up). Difference with Germany was that he was totally outclassed in every department by a guy who's leaving the sport - and that's just not the Fernando Alonso I've watched since the start of his career

Anyway he has 90% restored my faith since then. Monza was another question mark that had me questioning things. But hey, JB is still one of the top drivers IMO - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he should be able to get one over on his higher-rated teammate once in a while


Exactly, Germany and Monza were stunning. I don't recall Jenson Button making Lewis Hamilton look like that ever. Really if you look at the whole year you can't say that he has dominated Button in any way.

That's only if you forget 2011 ever existed...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:17 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Germany was the big one for me. Beaten by JB in qualy (a rarity in 2016) and nowhere close to him in the race. I was massively disappointed in his performance. The ones you've called out have had some incident involved. Germany was different - Alonso just wasn't hitting the mark, unlike his teammate. It wasn't just a bad showing - it was miserable in my book, very much below his usual standard. He has made up for it (and more so) since. But I did fear at the time that he was starting to lose it. It didn't help that it was in and around a period of race-altering issues like Silverstone, Spa and Monza (no matter whether it was team or driver - it was just starting to build up). Difference with Germany was that he was totally outclassed in every department by a guy who's leaving the sport - and that's just not the Fernando Alonso I've watched since the start of his career

Anyway he has 90% restored my faith since then. Monza was another question mark that had me questioning things. But hey, JB is still one of the top drivers IMO - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he should be able to get one over on his higher-rated teammate once in a while

I think something worth noting is that the common factor between Germany and Italy is fuel; on both occasions, Alonso pushed too hard and didn't save enough fuel, forcing him to drop well back of JB and lose time at the end. Bearing in mind that he's been quite vocal against the fuel saving formula on multiple occasions, it seems quite possible this is simply an area he isn't the best at.

Of course, considering how political Alonso is, it's also possible he felt he was doing poorly in those races and decided to throw his fuel mileage out the window to make a point! :lol:

I don't think it's fuel at all. I think F1 has left that issue behind (even Honda despite arriving 1 year later). Honestly I believe it was just Alonso on an OK weekend vs Button on a top weekend. Jenson Button is no walkover and the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso have both found that out the hard way

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:18 am 
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kleefton wrote:
mcdo wrote:
kleefton wrote:
jrwb6e wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
What has Alonso done in the last couple of years to be considered the best? He may or may not be, but we have no way of knowing.


Well, Alonso's been racking up the 5th, 6th, and 7th place finishes with that dog of an engine. He makes the best starts of anyone on the grid (find them on YouTube). His racecraft is still top notch. Before you say Alonso is finishing as well as he is through luck or attrition, he's not making contact at the start like a certain Ferrari driver or dropping places every other start like a certain Mercedes driver. His consistency is simply better.


Meh...Alonso has had his share of bad races too you know. There have been times where Button has simply outpaced him and outraced him. The ones I recall clearly; in Australia that awful crash was due to an over opportunistic overtaking attempt of Gutierrez, in Silverstone he was pushing too hard and almost binned the car, his spin completely ruining his race. And at COTA even though he got the great result, his overtakes of Massa and Sainz were definitely questionable.
I have felt a lack of consistency from Alonso this year. He is still really good, but he is not always on it like he used to. He has looked better as of late though, I have to admit.
In my opinion Ricciardo is driving the best of anyone, but even he has been off the pace a couple of times this year. But his race craft has been the best on the grid by far.

Germany was the big one for me. Beaten by JB in qualy (a rarity in 2016) and nowhere close to him in the race. I was massively disappointed in his performance. The ones you've called out have had some incident involved. Germany was different - Alonso just wasn't hitting the mark, unlike his teammate. It wasn't just a bad showing - it was miserable in my book, very much below his usual standard. He has made up for it (and more so) since. But I did fear at the time that he was starting to lose it. It didn't help that it was in and around a period of race-altering issues like Silverstone, Spa and Monza (no matter whether it was team or driver - it was just starting to build up). Difference with Germany was that he was totally outclassed in every department by a guy who's leaving the sport - and that's just not the Fernando Alonso I've watched since the start of his career

Anyway he has 90% restored my faith since then. Monza was another question mark that had me questioning things. But hey, JB is still one of the top drivers IMO - it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he should be able to get one over on his higher-rated teammate once in a while


Exactly, Germany and Monza were stunning. I don't recall Jenson Button making Lewis Hamilton look like that ever. Really if you look at the whole year you can't say that he has dominated Button in any way.


I have, can, and will say that. He has dominated Jenson this year. I can't think of a team mate battle that has been much more one sided.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:27 am 
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Button must be close second then and I wonder next year his teammate will be :? He had good result last race but the Felipe overtaking was what you call driver bombing in video games. I wouldn't be proud of that overtaking.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:33 am 
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@mcdo

Kleefton is absolutely right.
Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco, he still managed to outqualify Button.

If we talk about 2012, you would think they were driving different cars. Qualifyings was a total destruction, at the level of Alonso-Massa(check the numbers if you dont believe me). The gaps in the races(and qualifyings) were bigger than those than Alonso is doing, and Hamilton even managed to give +1lap to Button in Canada.

I am more impressed(negatively) that the gap in terms of seconds between Alonso and Button is so small for someone who is considered the best ever.

You have to look at some funny facts to see the hypocrisy(not to say worse) that runs deep among journos and fans: at no point (yes never) in his career Hamilton has been talked in the same sentence of Schumacher, Senna and even Vettel pre 2014. But we have 1 race winner Verstappen who is considered a mix between Schumacher and Senna or Ricciarco who is struggling to beat the youngster but is still considered the very best. These lists read like when you buy yourself a Rolex(conservative choice) not to upset your peers or to blend more easily. give them all the same cars and you lot would be shocked.

On dailymotion they are all the races of the 2009 season when McLaren was a dog of a car at the beginning of the year. Some forum members should watch them again.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:38 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Button must be close second then and I wonder next year his teammate will be :? He had good result last race but the Felipe overtaking was what you call driver bombing in video games. I wouldn't be proud of that overtaking.

Nobody is claiming that. Today's F1 drivers are so close that 1 tenth really can be the difference between 12th and 20th. It appears there's at least a tenth between Button and Alonso

JB is still a top draw in my book. I absolutely believed he could have moved across to Wiliams no problem. They have since admitted that they would have loved to have him back. Then McLaren announced his signature for a year on the sidelines. It doesn't add up for me but the 2009 World Champion can do whatever the hell he likes as far as I'm concerned

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:55 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
@mcdo

Kleefton is absolutely right.
Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco, he still managed to outqualify Button.

If we talk about 2012, you would think they were driving different cars. Qualifyings was a total destruction, at the level of Alonso-Massa(check the numbers if you dont believe me). The gaps in the races(and qualifyings) were bigger than those than Alonso is doing, and Hamilton even managed to give +1lap to Button in Canada.

I am more impressed(negatively) that the gap in terms of seconds between Alonso and Button is so small for someone who is considered the best ever.

You have to look at some funny facts to see the hypocrisy(not to say worse) that runs deep among journos and fans: at no point (yes never) in his career Hamilton has been talked in the same sentence of Schumacher, Senna and even Vettel pre 2014. But we have 1 race winner Verstappen who is considered a mix between Schumacher and Senna or Ricciarco who is struggling to beat the youngster but is still considered the very best. These lists read like when you buy yourself a Rolex(conservative choice) not to upset your peers or to blend more easily. give them all the same cars and you lot would be shocked.

On dailymotion they are all the races of the 2009 season when McLaren was a dog of a car at the beginning of the year. Some forum members should watch them again.


You are right that there is bias in the press, but you have to admit how biased you are being here.

"Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco"

What are you talking about here? Is that a fact? Where did you get that fact from? If you're going to say that then I get to say the same about Button 2012.

Hamilton is considered one of the greats of this current generation, but at the moment he isn't all time great like a Senna, Prost or Schumacher because he can go off the boil when things don't go his way. Jenson Button isn't a great either because he can be poor when the car isn't to his liking. This is all my opinion of course.

Hamilton fans really need to see that Button's showing against him does not down grade Hamilton as a driver, it only lifts Button's standing. Hamilton stays the same (a top notch driver), that's why Button has so much to lose going there.

Another thing that people don't consider when looking at a driver is who they beat to become World Champion. Hamilton has Massa and Rosberg... not the best of championship rivals there


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:32 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Button must be close second then and I wonder next year his teammate will be :? He had good result last race but the Felipe overtaking was what you call driver bombing in video games. I wouldn't be proud of that overtaking.


Why? I think a few drivers fit in the gap between Alonso and Button.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:35 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Kleefton is absolutely right.
Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco, he still managed to outqualify Button.

Well now, that's pretty shocking, considering Alonso's only up 12-3 against Button in qualifying this year... :uhoh:

mcdo wrote:
I don't think it's fuel at all. I think F1 has left that issue behind (even Honda despite arriving 1 year later). Honestly I believe it was just Alonso on an OK weekend vs Button on a top weekend. Jenson Button is no walkover and the likes of Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso have both found that out the hard way

In Germany at least it was absolutely fuel. Monza you may be right, but both Button and Alonso were quite vocal after Hockenheim about the fuel saving, and Jenson directly attributed it to the reason Alonso fell back from him so dramatically:

“It was a very good start and I made up most of the places there,” he confirmed, “After that, it was just looking after the tyres as they were degrading quicker than I expected them to, and a lot of fuel save as well…

“It's tough on tyres this place, rears especially, so a tough weekend all round really. Not having enough time in the car, to find a balance that sort of worked was good. I went off the circuit towards the end as I was doing so much fuel saving that I hit the brakes and they were stone cold because I hadn't been braking hard!

“I don't know if other people struggled [with fuel consumption], but we struggled more than I expected. Maybe we're quicker than we expected, but I was struggling [at the end] because [Alonso] was pushing me… I was like 'he must have the same problems as me…' and he was actually having them worse, but he wasn't lifting off as much!”


Source: http://www.crash.net/f1/news/232558/1/b ... oints.html

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:06 am 
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It's a hard job , would be interesting to mix people's seats up and see what happened let's be honest it's 90% machinery I think alot of drivers could mix it up just as well as ric and max are
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:10 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Kleefton is absolutely right.
Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco, he still managed to outqualify Button.

Well now, that's pretty shocking, considering Alonso's only up 12-3 against Button in qualifying this year... :uhoh:



Check the gaps mate. Hamilton had twice the gap Alonso has on Button. We are talking about a 2012 Button with whitmarsh at the helm. Button had no chance vs Hamilton on Saturday, but with Alonso he manages to run him really really close.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:21 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Kleefton is absolutely right.
Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco, he still managed to outqualify Button.

Well now, that's pretty shocking, considering Alonso's only up 12-3 against Button in qualifying this year... :uhoh:



Check the gaps mate. Hamilton had twice the gap Alonso has on Button. We are talking about a 2012 Button with whitmarsh at the helm. Button had no chance vs Hamilton on Saturday, but with Alonso he manages to run him really really close.


12 - 4 to Alonso in qualifying this season.

How much more dominant do you people expect!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Kleefton is absolutely right.
Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco, he still managed to outqualify Button.

Well now, that's pretty shocking, considering Alonso's only up 12-3 against Button in qualifying this year... :uhoh:



Check the gaps mate. Hamilton had twice the gap Alonso has on Button. We are talking about a 2012 Button with whitmarsh at the helm. Button had no chance vs Hamilton on Saturday, but with Alonso he manages to run him really really close.


12 - 4 to Alonso in qualifying this season.

How much more dominant do you people expect!


This is not dominant enough. It should be 18-0!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:37 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Kleefton is absolutely right.
Even in 2011, a season Hamilton decided not to complete after Monaco, he still managed to outqualify Button.

Well now, that's pretty shocking, considering Alonso's only up 12-3 against Button in qualifying this year... :uhoh:



Check the gaps mate. Hamilton had twice the gap Alonso has on Button. We are talking about a 2012 Button with whitmarsh at the helm. Button had no chance vs Hamilton on Saturday, but with Alonso he manages to run him really really close.


12 - 4 to Alonso in qualifying this season.

How much more dominant do you people expect!


This is not dominant enough. It should be 18-0!

Also it should be pointed out that qualifying has never been Alonso's biggest strength (race pace is), yet he is beating Button comfortably.


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