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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:41 pm 
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While the record books usually focus on the positive records like most wins, poles, fastest laps etc there are also records that are quite the opposite. This is what I compiled. Feel free to add what I might have forgotten ;)

* Andrea De Cesaris: holds a few of these negative records. He has the most retirements of any driver 148 from 208 races (71,15%). He also holds the record for most races without ever winning a single GP. He had 22 consecutive retirements from the last race in 1986 all throughout 1987 (16 races) and the first 5 races of 1988. If anyone can find a worse case I would like to hear. Most of his retirements were car failures though.

* Alex Soler-Roig: Spanish driver who had 10 entries from 1970-1972 and qualified for 6 races. He retired from all races making him the guy with most races with a 100% retirement rate.

* Luca Badoer: even though he would have scored under the current point system and also under the top 8 scoring system, those systems were not active when he was racing (bar the few races he did in 2009 for Ferrari), 51 races with a best result of 7th make him the guy driving most races without ever scoring a single point. Than again he drove always for backmarker teams and never got a proper chance with a decent car.

* Charles Pic: under the current system he is the guy with most races without ever scoring points, 39 races with a best result of 12th. 2 seasons in backmarker teams and unfortunately for him during an era where reliability is high

* Adrian Sutil: It was halfway 2014 that the German broke Pierluigi Martini's longstanding record of most races without a podium. Even though not officially retired from the sport (but unlikely to come back) he now holds this record with 128 races. The record might be broken by Hulkenberg but his career is far from over.

* Martin Brundle: I was actually surprised he holds several records. That he never won I knew but he never led a single lap in his F1 career! He is the driver with most races (158) and never leading a single lap. He also holds the record of most F1 qualifyings (165) and never getting pole or a front row start, a record he shares with Johnny Herbert. Brundle's best grid position was 3th and Herbert 4th. Brundle is also holding a record of most attempts to get a podium (91) a record that I expect to be broken by Hulkenberg

* Johnny Herbert: next to the no pole position and no front row record he shares with his compatriot above he is the driver with most races without ever registering a fastest lap (161).

* Mark Webber: He won his first race in his 130th GP that is indeed a record, no GP winner needed more attempts. If this one is going to be broken it might again be Hulkenberg.

* Gabriele Tarquini: back in the day when grids had more cars that the grid allowed for qualifications were also held to make drivers and especially the cars that were not fast enough not participate in the eventual race. Tarquini drove most of his F1 career for the uncompetitive AGS team (1989-1991) and holds the record of most non-starts, 40 from 78 entries. A record that I expect never to be broken.

* Bertrand Gachot (and Coloni): In his rookie season (1989) he was dropped after 12 races by the Onyx team. He signed for the last 2 races for Rial but didn't qualify. In 1990 he drove a full season as single driver for Coloni without qualifying once making it 18 non-starts in a row, a record I guess. Coloni went on for another season as a single driver team but recorded another full season non-qualifications with drivers Pedro Chaves and Naoki Hattori. With the GP of Portugal 1989 their last race (Roberto Moreno) they recorded a phenomenal 35 non-starts in a row. Enzo Coloni sold the team to Andrea Sassetti who rebadged it as Andrea Moda in 1992. From a dozen attempts (with 2 drivers this time) only Moreno could qualify it once. They were actually excluded before the season was over for bringing the sport in disrespect. The other driver was Perry McCarthy aka the original Stig.

* Claudio Langes (and Life F1): Italian driver whose only season was in 1990 with Eurobrun. He holds the record for most non-qualifications without ever making the grid, 14 consecutively. It would probably have been 16 but Eurobrun pulled out after the 14th round. Despite the car being highly uncompetitive Moreno (yeah again!) was able to qualify it twice while Langes was often seconds of the pace of his teammate. He didn't even get through pre-qualifications once. Langes' F1 story is analogue to that of the Italian Life F1 team from Ernesto Vita, single driver team in 1990 with Gary Brabham for the first 2 and than Bruno Giacomelli (comeback after 7 years absence from the sport) for the other 12 races. 14 times unable to get through the pre-qualifications being heavily of the pace of anyone else and just like Eurobrun pulling out with 2 races to go.

* Chris Amon: New Zealand driver active from 1963 to 1976 in F1. He led a total of 183 laps without winning a single GP, a very long standing record

* Jarno Trulli: most will remember this Italian driver as the one lap wonder and causing the infamous "Trulli train" in races. Despite his 1 lap pace still only 4 poles, 1 win (at Monaco where it is almost impossible to overtake) and a further 10 podiums in 252 races look like a rather medicocre F1 career. Oh yes he did register 1 fastest lap and that's the record he needed 203 races to accomplish that.

* Peter Gethin: not really a negative record but what he did was quite remarkable that it deserves a mention. The British driver won 1 race in his F1 career (Italy 1971) a race which he led for the last 3 laps. It would also be the only race and laps he would be leading. That's right the GP winner with the least laps leading.

* Bernie Ecclestone: Bernie already had a team in 1958 entering Connaughts. In Monaco he actually joined his drivers in qualifications and set a time of 6'05''0 being dead last of those setting a time and way of pole time (Tony Brooks, 1'39''8). Afterwards it was said he did only a few explorative laps but still 6 minutes for a guy of 28 years old who actually did drive motorcycles and F3 before...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:59 am 
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Brundle actually got a podium in 1984 but lost it when Tyrell were later disqualified from the championship.

Nico also holds about every single record for "most" without winning a championship. Soon to change probably.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:10 am 
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Herbert and Brundle both stunk up the joint. How they managed to retain seats season after season is beyond me.
And while they're decent commentators, I find that what kept them from being top tier drivers also carries over to their commentary.
Perhaps it's why I often find myself disagreeing with some of the things they say. For instance, in Mexico…

HUGE move by Vettel under braking. First of all NOT huge and he failed to explain the situation from all angles and sold the incident from the angle he preferred. That's why I feel the world feed would benefit greatly if Will Buxton was calling the races. NO ONE has the acuity he has to know and understand the rules thoroughly and off the top of his head and he's usually dead nuts accurate on his assessment of scenarios and incidents. He's impartial which is something that's missing on most commentary teams. Buxton is passionate about F1 as a whole before he is a fan of certain drivers.

At the very least, replacing Diffey with Buxton would be a godsend but I am well aware that Will LOVES being at the races. Screw you Diffey! LOL
He blocked me on Twitter because I posted on Varsha's wall that I would love nothing more than to replace the unnecessary shouting for the most insignificant things with Bob's soothing voice. Some people it seems can't take criticism.

Back on topic… Trulli's section paints the very story I've been telling to a FOR YEARS about him and I'm always met with disbelief and accusations of not knowing what I was talking about. And while numbers don't always tell the story, he had PLENTY of time to accrue vastly more than enough volume to deduce from averaging out his career accomplishments, that he was just an ok driver at best. Just another guy whom I always wondered how he retained seats year, after year, after year.

Sutil was no different in many regards.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:29 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Herbert and Brundle both stunk up the joint. How they managed to retain seats season after season is beyond me.
And while they're decent commentators, I find that what kept them from being top tier drivers also carries over to their commentary.
Perhaps it's why I often find myself disagreeing with some of the things they say. For instance, in Mexico…

HUGE move by Vettel under braking. First of all NOT huge and he failed to explain the situation from all angles and sold the incident from the angle he preferred. That's why I feel the world feed would benefit greatly if Will Buxton was calling the races. NO ONE has the acuity he has to know and understand the rules thoroughly and off the top of his head and he's usually dead nuts accurate on his assessment of scenarios and incidents. He's impartial which is something that's missing on most commentary teams. Buxton is passionate about F1 as a whole before he is a fan of certain drivers.

At the very least, replacing Diffey with Buxton would be a godsend but I am well aware that Will LOVES being at the races. Screw you Diffey! LOL
He blocked me on Twitter because I posted on Varsha's wall that I would love nothing more than to replace the unnecessary shouting for the most insignificant things with Bob's soothing voice. Some people it seems can't take criticism.

Back on topic… Trulli's section paints the very story I've been telling to a FOR YEARS about him and I'm always met with disbelief and accusations of not knowing what I was talking about. And while numbers don't always tell the story, he had PLENTY of time to accrue vastly more than enough volume to deduce from averaging out his career accomplishments, that he was just an ok driver at best. Just another guy whom I always wondered how he retained seats year, after year, after year.

Sutil was no different in many regards.


Because they drove well.

They hardly "stunk up the joint"
Brundle in particular was a good standard F1 driver. Not as good as Schumacher or Hakkinen but as good as the likes of Panis and better than a lot of others.

Pretty much the same with Herbert.

Solid midfield drivers. If you have a look at the seasons that Brundle raced in particularly, you would usually rate him in the top 10-12 on the grid.

Trulli the same TBH.

Better or similar to every team mate apart from Alonso.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:00 am 
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I hate reading criticisms of former drivers like this. Herbert and Brundle may not have been top drawer but to suggest they stunk up the place is very unfair and shows a basic lack of understanding of what it takes to perform at that level for so long. If Frank Williams wasn't such a cheapskate when it came to driver salaries, Brundle would have replaced Mansell at Williams in '93. I have no doubt he would have been much closer to Prost than Hill was. As for Herbert, his win at the Nurburgring in '99 is proof enough of his class. He read conditions beautifully that day and dictated his strategy to the team rather than the other way around, and came out on top.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:34 am 
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Marco Apicella - His career just lasted 800 meters when driving for Jordan at Monza in 1993.

Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).

Sebastian Vettel - Shortest time to earning the 1st penalty. After making debut to replace Kubica in Sauber, he sped in the pit lane & earned the penalty within 6 seconds of his debut.

Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:45 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).


Amon mentioned de Cesaris having this record. While he seemed to be incorrect in 22 consecutive DNF's (I see a podium having been registered in Belgium), after that he did have 12 consecutive DNF's. So I don't think this one of Villeneuve is correct.

Quote:
Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).


This too was mentioned in the OP...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:05 am 
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mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).


Amon mentioned de Cesaris having this record. While he seemed to be incorrect in 22 consecutive DNF's (I see a podium having been registered in Belgium), after that he did have 12 consecutive DNF's. So I don't think this one of Villeneuve is correct.

Sebastian Vettel - Shortest time to earning the 1st penalty. After making debut to replace Kubica in Sauber, he sped in the pit lane & earned the penalty within 6 seconds of his debut.

Quote:
Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).


This too was mentioned in the OP...


He did retire in 22 consecutive GP and he scored a podium in those 22 races!!
Belgium 1987 retired on the penultimate lap while in 3rd but with everyone behind him a lap down he managed to stay 3rd.
PS: That was the 4th race on the streak, so that leaves another 18 afterwards.

Also Trulli has the most 1st lap retirements with 14.
Heidfeld has led a lap at 8 different races and didn't manage to win one and also has the most podiums without a win (13).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:16 am 
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Teo Fabi most poles without leading a lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:43 am 
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Fountoukos13 wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).


Amon mentioned de Cesaris having this record. While he seemed to be incorrect in 22 consecutive DNF's (I see a podium having been registered in Belgium), after that he did have 12 consecutive DNF's. So I don't think this one of Villeneuve is correct.

Sebastian Vettel - Shortest time to earning the 1st penalty. After making debut to replace Kubica in Sauber, he sped in the pit lane & earned the penalty within 6 seconds of his debut.

Quote:
Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).


This too was mentioned in the OP...


He did retire in 22 consecutive GP and he scored a podium in those 22 races!!
Belgium 1987 retired on the penultimate lap while in 3rd but with everyone behind him a lap down he managed to stay 3rd.
PS: That was the 4th race on the streak, so that leaves another 18 afterwards.

Also Trulli has the most 1st lap retirements with 14.
Heidfeld has led a lap at 8 different races and didn't manage to win one and also has the most podiums without a win (13).

His car may have conked out but you can't have a DNF and a podium, since a DNF records no result.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:02 pm 
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Hulkenberg is gonna broke those two Sutil/Brundle records that you mentioned.

And I would add another three to the list, even though they arent so that of "embarassing" records.

-Most podiums without a win (Nick Heidfeld - 13 podiums)

-Most podiums without a WDC (Rubens Barrichello - 68 podiums)

-Most race wins without a WDC (Nico Rosberg - 23 wins - a reacord that could be invalidated if he wins the WDC the upcoming race)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).


Amon mentioned de Cesaris having this record. While he seemed to be incorrect in 22 consecutive DNF's (I see a podium having been registered in Belgium), after that he did have 12 consecutive DNF's. So I don't think this one of Villeneuve is correct.

Sebastian Vettel - Shortest time to earning the 1st penalty. After making debut to replace Kubica in Sauber, he sped in the pit lane & earned the penalty within 6 seconds of his debut.

Quote:
Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).


This too was mentioned in the OP...


He did retire in 22 consecutive GP and he scored a podium in those 22 races!!
Belgium 1987 retired on the penultimate lap while in 3rd but with everyone behind him a lap down he managed to stay 3rd.
PS: That was the 4th race on the streak, so that leaves another 18 afterwards.

Also Trulli has the most 1st lap retirements with 14.
Heidfeld has led a lap at 8 different races and didn't manage to win one and also has the most podiums without a win (13).

His car may have conked out but you can't have a DNF and a podium, since a DNF records no result.


Well yes, question of course is what you call a retirement. The official qualitications have 3 possibilities:
1. finished and classified
2. not finished, but classified (current rules: > 90% of race finished)
3. not finished, not classified

"3" is definitely retired. "2", you can make a case for either. "1", I don't believe this counts as retired.
de Cesaris officially finished and was classified in Belgium :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).


Amon mentioned de Cesaris having this record. While he seemed to be incorrect in 22 consecutive DNF's (I see a podium having been registered in Belgium), after that he did have 12 consecutive DNF's. So I don't think this one of Villeneuve is correct.

Sebastian Vettel - Shortest time to earning the 1st penalty. After making debut to replace Kubica in Sauber, he sped in the pit lane & earned the penalty within 6 seconds of his debut.

Quote:
Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).


This too was mentioned in the OP...


He did retire in 22 consecutive GP and he scored a podium in those 22 races!!
Belgium 1987 retired on the penultimate lap while in 3rd but with everyone behind him a lap down he managed to stay 3rd.
PS: That was the 4th race on the streak, so that leaves another 18 afterwards.

Also Trulli has the most 1st lap retirements with 14.
Heidfeld has led a lap at 8 different races and didn't manage to win one and also has the most podiums without a win (13).

His car may have conked out but you can't have a DNF and a podium, since a DNF records no result.


Not true. You can have a DNF and still be classified in whatever position. Plenty of drivers have not finished but still scored points.

To finish you have to complete the lap you are on when the leader crosses the line. If you fail to do that you don't finish.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Not true. You can have a DNF and still be classified in whatever position. Plenty of drivers have not finished but still scored points.

To finish you have to complete the lap you are on when the leader crosses the line. If you fail to do that you don't finish.


I think you're correct - but de Cesaris had that covered (see my above reply) ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).


Amon mentioned de Cesaris having this record. While he seemed to be incorrect in 22 consecutive DNF's (I see a podium having been registered in Belgium), after that he did have 12 consecutive DNF's. So I don't think this one of Villeneuve is correct.

Sebastian Vettel - Shortest time to earning the 1st penalty. After making debut to replace Kubica in Sauber, he sped in the pit lane & earned the penalty within 6 seconds of his debut.

Quote:
Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).


This too was mentioned in the OP...


He did retire in 22 consecutive GP and he scored a podium in those 22 races!!
Belgium 1987 retired on the penultimate lap while in 3rd but with everyone behind him a lap down he managed to stay 3rd.
PS: That was the 4th race on the streak, so that leaves another 18 afterwards.

Also Trulli has the most 1st lap retirements with 14.
Heidfeld has led a lap at 8 different races and didn't manage to win one and also has the most podiums without a win (13).

His car may have conked out but you can't have a DNF and a podium, since a DNF records no result.


Not true. You can have a DNF and still be classified in whatever position. Plenty of drivers have not finished but still scored points.

To finish you have to complete the lap you are on when the leader crosses the line. If you fail to do that you don't finish.

It may be semantics, but I don't think that's right. You may only have one official classification - you either finish or you don't. If he's classified as 3rd then that's what the official records will show his as, not as a DNF.

If you conk out on the last lap but have lapped someone else on the way there, that person won't finish ahead of you, even if he crosses the line and you don't. You are still recorded as having finished the race and classified as such

edit: from the regulations:

Any driver who completes over 90 percent of the race will be classified as a finisher, regardless of whether they were running as the winner took the chequered flag.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/Classification_Race_distance_and_Points.html


Last edited by Zoue on Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:18 pm 
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You've missed the big one (and possibly the simplest negative record) - Narin Karthikeyan being the lowest finisher to cross the line of any GP at 22nd.

(I think, not actually looked it up!)

Edit: No, I was wrong, it was 24th in Valencia in 2011.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
It may be semantics, but I don't think that's right. You may only have one official classification - you either finish or you don't. If he's classified as 3rd then that's what the official records will show his as, not as a DNF.

If you conk out on the last lap but have lapped someone else on the way there, that person won't finish ahead of you, even if he crosses the line and you don't. You are still recorded as having finished the race and classified as such

edit: from the regulations:

Any driver who completes over 90 percent of the race will be classified as a finisher, regardless of whether they were running as the winner took the chequered flag.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/Classification_Race_distance_and_Points.html


Not sure.

For example. Mika Salo scored points and was classified in Monaco 96 yet it also counts on his DNF stats.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:56 pm 
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IMO you don't finish until you take the chequered flag, but you can be classified. More extreme case is Eddie Irvine at Monaco in 1996, he crashed out with 7 laps to go but because he completed over 90% of the distance was classified 7th. That is no different from a driver who crashed out on the last lap and failed to take the flag. Did Eddie finish that race? He crashed out a full 11 minutes before it even ended.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:58 pm 
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Also Alonso at Brazil in 2003 is an interesting one in terms of "did he finish", I guess he did but he got the raced stopped with his accident.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Cool idea for a thread :thumbup:

I'll add one of my own: Sir Stirling Moss. Four occasions as F1 vice-Champion without ever managing to win the WDC. Twice as many as any other driver, although should Nico Rosberg fail to win the WDC this year then he'll move to within one of equalling that unwanted record. Of course, how 'unwanted' that is subjective and would depend on the career a driver has. I reckon someone like Andre de Cesaris would've given his right arm to have the kind of career Sir Stirling had, whilst at the same time I'm sure Nico Rosberg would be very, very keen to not end up equalling (or even breaking) the record!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:22 pm 
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To end the whole debate about not finishing. De Cesaris didn't complete the last lap in the Belgian GP 1987 as he ran out of fuel. However only the top 3 were on the same lap and when Prost and Johansson crossed the finish line as 1st and 2nd De Cesaris was still in third position. He didn't finish the race, was classified but it was still a retirement.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:36 pm 
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Amon wrote:
To end the whole debate about not finishing. De Cesaris didn't complete the last lap in the Belgian GP 1987 as he ran out of fuel. However only the top 3 were on the same lap and when Prost and Johansson crossed the finish line as 1st and 2nd De Cesaris was still in third position. He didn't finish the race, was classified but it was still a retirement.


It was not a retirement. He finished the lap, took the flag, and finished the race. It was accepted as a finish by the stewards. There's no asterisk next to his finishing result as having broken down but classified.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:39 pm 
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lamo wrote:
IMO you don't finish until you take the chequered flag, but you can be classified. More extreme case is Eddie Irvine at Monaco in 1996, he crashed out with 7 laps to go but because he completed over 90% of the distance was classified 7th. That is no different from a driver who crashed out on the last lap and failed to take the flag. Did Eddie finish that race? He crashed out a full 11 minutes before it even ended.

I tend to agree.

But de Cesaris took that flag :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:55 pm 
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mds wrote:
Amon wrote:
To end the whole debate about not finishing. De Cesaris didn't complete the last lap in the Belgian GP 1987 as he ran out of fuel. However only the top 3 were on the same lap and when Prost and Johansson crossed the finish line as 1st and 2nd De Cesaris was still in third position. He didn't finish the race, was classified but it was still a retirement.


It was not a retirement. He finished the lap, took the flag, and finished the race. It was accepted as a finish by the stewards. There's no asterisk next to his finishing result as having broken down but classified.


Did he?

I have in my records book he completed 42 laps rather than 43?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
Amon wrote:
To end the whole debate about not finishing. De Cesaris didn't complete the last lap in the Belgian GP 1987 as he ran out of fuel. However only the top 3 were on the same lap and when Prost and Johansson crossed the finish line as 1st and 2nd De Cesaris was still in third position. He didn't finish the race, was classified but it was still a retirement.


It was not a retirement. He finished the lap, took the flag, and finished the race. It was accepted as a finish by the stewards. There's no asterisk next to his finishing result as having broken down but classified.


Did he?

I have in my records book he completed 42 laps rather than 43?


True, but being lapped doesn't equal retiring.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:06 pm 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
Amon wrote:
To end the whole debate about not finishing. De Cesaris didn't complete the last lap in the Belgian GP 1987 as he ran out of fuel. However only the top 3 were on the same lap and when Prost and Johansson crossed the finish line as 1st and 2nd De Cesaris was still in third position. He didn't finish the race, was classified but it was still a retirement.


It was not a retirement. He finished the lap, took the flag, and finished the race. It was accepted as a finish by the stewards. There's no asterisk next to his finishing result as having broken down but classified.


Did he?

I have in my records book he completed 42 laps rather than 43?


True, but being lapped doesn't equal retiring.


But he wasn't lapped was he? He never saw the flag?

Edit - He must have been on the lead lap because he was classified ahead of all others on 42 laps.

I know he pushed the car home on the 43rd lap but is only credited with 42 laps.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Jochen Rindt, the only driver to be posthumously awarded the Formula One World Drivers' Championship.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Speaking of Villeneuve, is he the only WDC to never win a race again after he achieved the Championship?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:52 pm 
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Surprised MasterCard Lola haven't been mentioned yet.

On that subject, surely Ricardo Rosset holds the record for falling foul of the 107% rule the most amount of times? I recall he also DNQed a number of times in 1998 with Tyrrell.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
Amon wrote:
To end the whole debate about not finishing. De Cesaris didn't complete the last lap in the Belgian GP 1987 as he ran out of fuel. However only the top 3 were on the same lap and when Prost and Johansson crossed the finish line as 1st and 2nd De Cesaris was still in third position. He didn't finish the race, was classified but it was still a retirement.


It was not a retirement. He finished the lap, took the flag, and finished the race. It was accepted as a finish by the stewards. There's no asterisk next to his finishing result as having broken down but classified.


Did he?

I have in my records book he completed 42 laps rather than 43?


True, but being lapped doesn't equal retiring.


But he wasn't lapped was he? He never saw the flag?

Edit - He must have been on the lead lap because he was classified ahead of all others on 42 laps.

I know he pushed the car home on the 43rd lap but is only credited with 42 laps.


My apologies to you and Amon. Just found the official classification on formula1.com and apparently he is listed as DNF. Link here: https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... esult.html

Record real, let's get on with this great thread :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:33 pm 
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After the next race either Lewis Hamilton or Nico Rosberg will hold the record for the most number of wins in a season without being WDC.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:22 pm 
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Rosberg must be the guy with most wins without a WDC.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rosberg must be the guy with most wins without a WDC.


Indeed he is, a record he took from Sir Stirling earlier on in the year. Might not be two weeks from now, mind!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:44 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Herbert and Brundle both stunk up the joint. How they managed to retain seats season after season is beyond me.
And while they're decent commentators, I find that what kept them from being top tier drivers also carries over to their commentary.
Perhaps it's why I often find myself disagreeing with some of the things they say. For instance, in Mexico…

HUGE move by Vettel under braking. First of all NOT huge and he failed to explain the situation from all angles and sold the incident from the angle he preferred. That's why I feel the world feed would benefit greatly if Will Buxton was calling the races. NO ONE has the acuity he has to know and understand the rules thoroughly and off the top of his head and he's usually dead nuts accurate on his assessment of scenarios and incidents. He's impartial which is something that's missing on most commentary teams. Buxton is passionate about F1 as a whole before he is a fan of certain drivers.

At the very least, replacing Diffey with Buxton would be a godsend but I am well aware that Will LOVES being at the races. Screw you Diffey! LOL
He blocked me on Twitter because I posted on Varsha's wall that I would love nothing more than to replace the unnecessary shouting for the most insignificant things with Bob's soothing voice. Some people it seems can't take criticism.

Back on topic… Trulli's section paints the very story I've been telling to a FOR YEARS about him and I'm always met with disbelief and accusations of not knowing what I was talking about. And while numbers don't always tell the story, he had PLENTY of time to accrue vastly more than enough volume to deduce from averaging out his career accomplishments, that he was just an ok driver at best. Just another guy whom I always wondered how he retained seats year, after year, after year.

Sutil was no different in many regards.


Because they drove well.

They hardly "stunk up the joint"
Brundle in particular was a good standard F1 driver. Not as good as Schumacher or Hakkinen but as good as the likes of Panis and better than a lot of others.

Pretty much the same with Herbert.

Solid midfield drivers. If you have a look at the seasons that Brundle raced in particularly, you would usually rate him in the top 10-12 on the grid.

Trulli the same TBH.

Better or similar to every team mate apart from Alonso.

OK maybe stunk up the joint is a bit of a stretch, but they were both just OK, occupying seats other drivers could have at the very least tried their luck in. That Herbert won once as did Trulli was a fluke for both because they were never able to reproduce the results. On top of everything Trulli was always a bit of an arrogant guy and after the treatment he received from Flavio at Renault even more so. Now in Formula E he seems a bit more approachable, but still not too far from his former F1 attitude. And Driver attitude doesn't have to coincide with their ability. Michael Andretti was my favorite driver and when I met him, he couldn't have been a bigger A-hole which is a far cry to his dad. He was going through his divorce at the time so I always give leniency for how he treated us, but it doesn't take away from the fact he was less than cordial towards us.

What I find most interesting is how drivers so far off their teammates' paces over their careers are viewed as being "Solid Midfield Drivers" yet drivers that are a mere few tenths today are viewed as no good. People need to pick a side of the fence and stay on it.

A driver being a tenth off a teammate's time is either good or bad, but it cannot be both depending on how that assessment paints peoples' favorite drivers. In my book a tenth is literally nothing more than marginal at best so drivers like Nico and Daniil, and Webber and Gutierrez are all pretty darn good drivers. In others' estimation, they outright suck and that is simply not right. So if these guys aren't any good, then surely Brundle and Herbert are scrubs.

Hope my point comes across, but I generally don't rate either one of them in most regards because of being outperformed by most of their teammates, though I'd tip my hat towards Herbert if I had to choose between them.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:58 pm 
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Roberto Moreno who is mentions in the initial post here, failed to pre-qualify an astonishing 32 times out of 77 Entries!

That's 42%

Sadly Moreno, for all his ability was always stuck in little teams that simply couldn't because all other teams were stacked.
NO ONE that I can think of has the ability he has to run tires for longer. His maiden win in Cleveland was celebrated much like that of Dale Earnhardt's first win at Daytona. Just a beautiful moment for one of the nicest and most humble people you will ever meet.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Fountoukos13 wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Jacques Villeneuve - Most consecutive DNF's when driving for BAR (11).


Amon mentioned de Cesaris having this record. While he seemed to be incorrect in 22 consecutive DNF's (I see a podium having been registered in Belgium), after that he did have 12 consecutive DNF's. So I don't think this one of Villeneuve is correct.

Sebastian Vettel - Shortest time to earning the 1st penalty. After making debut to replace Kubica in Sauber, he sped in the pit lane & earned the penalty within 6 seconds of his debut.

Quote:
Claudio Langes - Most entries in a grand prix without starting a race due to pathetic qualifying times (14).


This too was mentioned in the OP...


He did retire in 22 consecutive GP and he scored a podium in those 22 races!!
Belgium 1987 retired on the penultimate lap while in 3rd but with everyone behind him a lap down he managed to stay 3rd.
PS: That was the 4th race on the streak, so that leaves another 18 afterwards.

Also Trulli has the most 1st lap retirements with 14.
Heidfeld has led a lap at 8 different races and didn't manage to win one and also has the most podiums without a win (13).

His car may have conked out but you can't have a DNF and a podium, since a DNF records no result.


DNF means that a driver didn't finish the race, but as long as he was classified (completed 90% of the race) he registers a result.
What you said applies on WEC. As we saw this year with the Toyota going bang and not making it to the checkered flag despite being second on the road (or the side of it) at the time the checkered flag was waved.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:27 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Herbert and Brundle both stunk up the joint. How they managed to retain seats season after season is beyond me.
And while they're decent commentators, I find that what kept them from being top tier drivers also carries over to their commentary.
Perhaps it's why I often find myself disagreeing with some of the things they say. For instance, in Mexico…

HUGE move by Vettel under braking. First of all NOT huge and he failed to explain the situation from all angles and sold the incident from the angle he preferred. That's why I feel the world feed would benefit greatly if Will Buxton was calling the races. NO ONE has the acuity he has to know and understand the rules thoroughly and off the top of his head and he's usually dead nuts accurate on his assessment of scenarios and incidents. He's impartial which is something that's missing on most commentary teams. Buxton is passionate about F1 as a whole before he is a fan of certain drivers.

At the very least, replacing Diffey with Buxton would be a godsend but I am well aware that Will LOVES being at the races. Screw you Diffey! LOL
He blocked me on Twitter because I posted on Varsha's wall that I would love nothing more than to replace the unnecessary shouting for the most insignificant things with Bob's soothing voice. Some people it seems can't take criticism.

Back on topic… Trulli's section paints the very story I've been telling to a FOR YEARS about him and I'm always met with disbelief and accusations of not knowing what I was talking about. And while numbers don't always tell the story, he had PLENTY of time to accrue vastly more than enough volume to deduce from averaging out his career accomplishments, that he was just an ok driver at best. Just another guy whom I always wondered how he retained seats year, after year, after year.

Sutil was no different in many regards.


Because they drove well.

They hardly "stunk up the joint"
Brundle in particular was a good standard F1 driver. Not as good as Schumacher or Hakkinen but as good as the likes of Panis and better than a lot of others.

Pretty much the same with Herbert.

Solid midfield drivers. If you have a look at the seasons that Brundle raced in particularly, you would usually rate him in the top 10-12 on the grid.

Trulli the same TBH.

Better or similar to every team mate apart from Alonso.

OK maybe stunk up the joint is a bit of a stretch, but they were both just OK, occupying seats other drivers could have at the very least tried their luck in. That Herbert won once as did Trulli was a fluke for both because they were never able to reproduce the results. On top of everything Trulli was always a bit of an arrogant guy and after the treatment he received from Flavio at Renault even more so. Now in Formula E he seems a bit more approachable, but still not too far from his former F1 attitude. And Driver attitude doesn't have to coincide with their ability. Michael Andretti was my favorite driver and when I met him, he couldn't have been a bigger A-hole which is a far cry to his dad. He was going through his divorce at the time so I always give leniency for how he treated us, but it doesn't take away from the fact he was less than cordial towards us.

What I find most interesting is how drivers so far off their teammates' paces over their careers are viewed as being "Solid Midfield Drivers" yet drivers that are a mere few tenths today are viewed as no good. People need to pick a side of the fence and stay on it.

A driver being a tenth off a teammate's time is either good or bad, but it cannot be both depending on how that assessment paints peoples' favorite drivers. In my book a tenth is literally nothing more than marginal at best so drivers like Nico and Daniil, and Webber and Gutierrez are all pretty darn good drivers. In others' estimation, they outright suck and that is simply not right. So if these guys aren't any good, then surely Brundle and Herbert are scrubs.

Hope my point comes across, but I generally don't rate either one of them in most regards because of being outperformed by most of their teammates, though I'd tip my hat towards Herbert if I had to choose between them.


Nowadays the gaps between teammates are much smaller compered to 15 years ago and even then they were smaller compered to 30 years ago.
That's due to everything being almost perfected, (lines, braking points, setup).

Also a thing to take into consideration is who is your direct comparison. For example if you are 3 tenths off Hamilton is considered better than being 2 tenths off Perez. For me Herbert wasn't that good but brundle doesn't deserve that criticism. The only year he drove a good car was in 1992 where he had 5 DNF in 16 races and in all 11 races he did finish he was in the top 5. Herbert was driving a car that was winning the WDC and WCC with ease and he won 2 races because Hill and Schumi crashed with each other on both occations. Actually in Italy 5 drivers had to retire infront of him to get the win.

In my opinion Brundle was more than deserving his seat in F1 and should have been given at least one more opportunity at a decent car. Herbert on the other hand was just a solid midfield driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:03 pm 
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Fountoukos13 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Herbert and Brundle both stunk up the joint. How they managed to retain seats season after season is beyond me.
And while they're decent commentators, I find that what kept them from being top tier drivers also carries over to their commentary.
Perhaps it's why I often find myself disagreeing with some of the things they say. For instance, in Mexico…

HUGE move by Vettel under braking. First of all NOT huge and he failed to explain the situation from all angles and sold the incident from the angle he preferred. That's why I feel the world feed would benefit greatly if Will Buxton was calling the races. NO ONE has the acuity he has to know and understand the rules thoroughly and off the top of his head and he's usually dead nuts accurate on his assessment of scenarios and incidents. He's impartial which is something that's missing on most commentary teams. Buxton is passionate about F1 as a whole before he is a fan of certain drivers.

At the very least, replacing Diffey with Buxton would be a godsend but I am well aware that Will LOVES being at the races. Screw you Diffey! LOL
He blocked me on Twitter because I posted on Varsha's wall that I would love nothing more than to replace the unnecessary shouting for the most insignificant things with Bob's soothing voice. Some people it seems can't take criticism.

Back on topic… Trulli's section paints the very story I've been telling to a FOR YEARS about him and I'm always met with disbelief and accusations of not knowing what I was talking about. And while numbers don't always tell the story, he had PLENTY of time to accrue vastly more than enough volume to deduce from averaging out his career accomplishments, that he was just an ok driver at best. Just another guy whom I always wondered how he retained seats year, after year, after year.

Sutil was no different in many regards.


Because they drove well.

They hardly "stunk up the joint"
Brundle in particular was a good standard F1 driver. Not as good as Schumacher or Hakkinen but as good as the likes of Panis and better than a lot of others.

Pretty much the same with Herbert.

Solid midfield drivers. If you have a look at the seasons that Brundle raced in particularly, you would usually rate him in the top 10-12 on the grid.

Trulli the same TBH.

Better or similar to every team mate apart from Alonso.

OK maybe stunk up the joint is a bit of a stretch, but they were both just OK, occupying seats other drivers could have at the very least tried their luck in. That Herbert won once as did Trulli was a fluke for both because they were never able to reproduce the results. On top of everything Trulli was always a bit of an arrogant guy and after the treatment he received from Flavio at Renault even more so. Now in Formula E he seems a bit more approachable, but still not too far from his former F1 attitude. And Driver attitude doesn't have to coincide with their ability. Michael Andretti was my favorite driver and when I met him, he couldn't have been a bigger A-hole which is a far cry to his dad. He was going through his divorce at the time so I always give leniency for how he treated us, but it doesn't take away from the fact he was less than cordial towards us.

What I find most interesting is how drivers so far off their teammates' paces over their careers are viewed as being "Solid Midfield Drivers" yet drivers that are a mere few tenths today are viewed as no good. People need to pick a side of the fence and stay on it.

A driver being a tenth off a teammate's time is either good or bad, but it cannot be both depending on how that assessment paints peoples' favorite drivers. In my book a tenth is literally nothing more than marginal at best so drivers like Nico and Daniil, and Webber and Gutierrez are all pretty darn good drivers. In others' estimation, they outright suck and that is simply not right. So if these guys aren't any good, then surely Brundle and Herbert are scrubs.

Hope my point comes across, but I generally don't rate either one of them in most regards because of being outperformed by most of their teammates, though I'd tip my hat towards Herbert if I had to choose between them.


Nowadays the gaps between teammates are much smaller compered to 15 years ago and even then they were smaller compered to 30 years ago.
That's due to everything being almost perfected, (lines, braking points, setup).

Also a thing to take into consideration is who is your direct comparison. For example if you are 3 tenths off Hamilton is considered better than being 2 tenths off Perez. For me Herbert wasn't that good but brundle doesn't deserve that criticism. The only year he drove a good car was in 1992 where he had 5 DNF in 16 races and in all 11 races he did finish he was in the top 5. Herbert was driving a car that was winning the WDC and WCC with ease and he won 2 races because Hill and Schumi crashed with each other on both occations. Actually in Italy 5 drivers had to retire infront of him to get the win.

In my opinion Brundle was more than deserving his seat in F1 and should have been given at least one more opportunity at a decent car. Herbert on the other hand was just a solid midfield driver.


Agree with all of this.

Only things I would add is....

Brundle did beat most of his team mates.

Herbert won 3 races. Not 1.

Herbert wasn't driving the same car as Schumacher in 95 and suffered many more disadvantages. Herbert wasn't as good as Schumacher but was not 2 seconds a lap slower.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Agree with all of this.

Only things I would add is....

Brundle did beat most of his team mates.

Herbert won 3 races. Not 1.

Herbert wasn't driving the same car as Schumacher in 95 and suffered many more disadvantages. Herbert wasn't as good as Schumacher but was not 2 seconds a lap slower.


I was refering to his wins in Britain where Schumi and Hill crashed and he won the race & Italy where 5 cars retired in front of him including another crash between Schumacher and Hill.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:29 pm 
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Another EuroBrun story: they entered all the races in 1989 and never qualified for a single one! Also, they made only 21 starts from 76 entries.

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