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Best two drivers of 2016
Lewis 17%  17%  [ 24 ]
Nico 5%  5%  [ 7 ]
Dan 26%  26%  [ 37 ]
Max 20%  20%  [ 28 ]
Seb 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Kimi 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
Fernando 20%  20%  [ 29 ]
Jenson 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Carlos 3%  3%  [ 4 ]
Daniil 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulk 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sergio 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Valteri 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Felipe M 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Jolyon 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Kevin 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Pascal 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Esteban O 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Esteban G 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Romain 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Felipe N 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Martin 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 143
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:40 pm 
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Select your best 2 drivers for 2016

Edit - Criteria is the two drivers who had the best season this year 2016. So not the best career or who might be best for 2017. Just over these 20-21 races - who was best?

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Last edited by lamo on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:43 pm 
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Ricciardo and Alonso.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:42 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Select your best 2 drivers for 2016


What's the criteria? Are we voting for the best 2 performances of 2016, or alternatively, who we think are the best 2 outright drivers on the grid? (which is a different kettle of fish).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:54 pm 
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Alonso is the best imo. Second driver depends on criteria as asked above. Most 'impressive' is Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:14 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Alonso is the best imo. Second driver depends on criteria as asked above. Most 'impressive' is Verstappen.


Simply the 1st and 2nd best drivers over the 2016 season. I thought it might give a more interesting result than simply the best which might be more unanimous and not tell us much about people opinions. I think you can make a case for 6-7 drivers to be in that top 2.

How do you speed ratings look for this year? I would be interested to know how Nico and Lewis compare to other years and how Max and Dan compare too. Thanks. Also how you rate the Mercedes ahead of the next best car in comparison to how far ahead it was in 14 and 15 would be very interesting.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:18 pm 
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I think Dan is my only certainty. I'm pretty sure I could be convinced by arguments from people for either Lewis,Max or Alonso for the other spot.

I think if Lewis has another pole and win in AD I'd plump for him.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Max and Fernando.

Honorable Mention goes to Kimi, and Lewis


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:11 pm 
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Quick question: What's with the first names and who the hell is Martin? :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:13 pm 
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So we are talking best performances (not outright best drivers).

At present, i’m juggling between Verstappen,Ricciardo and Hamilton. Räikkönen’s resurgence relative to Vettel also deserves consideration. Depends on what happens in AD. If Hamilton snatches the title (unlikely), I may opt for him. If Verstappen out-qualifies /beats Ricciardo again, he may get my vote.

Interestingly, the forum has conclusively rated Hamilton’s overall performances as the best of 2016 (as per DOTW polls).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:39 pm 
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I think it autocorrected to Martin :lol:

The first names was just a lot quicker to type as my ipad doesn't correct everything.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:06 pm 
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lamo wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Alonso is the best imo. Second driver depends on criteria as asked above. Most 'impressive' is Verstappen.


Simply the 1st and 2nd best drivers over the 2016 season. I thought it might give a more interesting result than simply the best which might be more unanimous and not tell us much about people opinions. I think you can make a case for 6-7 drivers to be in that top 2.

How do you speed ratings look for this year? I would be interested to know how Nico and Lewis compare to other years and how Max and Dan compare too. Thanks. Also how you rate the Mercedes ahead of the next best car in comparison to how far ahead it was in 14 and 15 would be very interesting.


Thanks that is clear; just the two best drivers of 2016. I'll have to skip this until after Abu Dhabi, when I'll analyse 2016 in detail based on my season averages.

Mercedes car superiority 2016: again have to wait for analysis after AD, but looks as though the advantage is about the same as 2015. In 2015 my stats made it 0.4%, in 2014 0.4% to second fastest car. Quite a turnaround from 2103 when my stats showed the Mercedes car to have been 0.5% down on the Red Bull-Renault.

Lewis vs Nico 2016: closer than 2015 and 2014. For 2015 I scored Lewis 0.2% up, in 2014 0.1% up on Nico; in 2013 Nico 0.1% up on Lewis.

Dan and Max 2016: have not done final season averages yet, but Dan definitely faster.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:23 pm 
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I'm being a little unconventional!

Max & Checo.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:48 pm 
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Alonso by far...then Kimi/Max...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:40 pm 
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Alonso. Now that he has a semi-respectable car again he's shown why he's still the best out there in my eyes. Some phenomenal performances this year.

Ricciardo gets my second vote.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:04 pm 
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I feel bad about voting for Martin but it seems I can't take it back :)

Otherwise I would go for Fernando and Dan or Max. I guess at least it means I can stay on the fence for the last two.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:47 pm 
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Has to be Dan for sure.
3rd in the drivers championship. (equalling Webber's best in the 2nd best car when he was in the best car)

The Red Bull at the start of the year was not the 2nd best car. At many tracks they were outclassed by Ferrari.

I think he has had to change his driving style to match Max. Especially in making the tyres last.
It seems the tables have turned in this regard as Max has been frustrated a few times and burnt out his tyres quickly. e.g. USA when he said "I am not here to finish 4th".

I think this poll would look different had it been taken before Brazil as that seems to have changed people's minds once again on Max.
It was a stunning drive, but still for me not enough to overshadow what Dan has achieved this year.
(Dan was out qualified and out raced at Brazil by Seb in 2014, Kyvat in 2015 and by Max in 2016. That says to me it is not his favourite track!)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:08 am 
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Randine wrote:
I think this poll would look different had it been taken before Brazil as that seems to have changed people's minds once again on Max.
It was a stunning drive, but still for me not enough to overshadow what Dan has achieved this year.
(Dan was out qualified and out raced at Brazil by Seb in 2014, Kyvat in 2015 and by Max in 2016. That says to me it is not his favourite track!)

Dan's winning the poll anyway, so maybe people aren't so easily influenced by a single race as all that.

And yes, any track where he was beaten on merit by Kvyat generally qualifies as a bogey track. Harsh, but there it is.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:03 am 
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Verstappen obviously.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ricciardo and Alonso.


Ditto

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:27 am 
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Alonso & Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:25 pm 
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Alonso & Ricciardo - those two edge it for me.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:21 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm being a little unconventional!

Max & Checo.

Ha! I voted exactly the same way :D

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:10 pm 
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Alonso is most definitely one of the two drivers of the season for me.

Got to wait for the final race to make up my mind about the other driver:
Hamilton possibly winning the final race, to make it 4 wins in row when it really mattered (even if Rosberg wins the title), can be a potential tie breaker between him and Ricciardo, who in turn, has to top Verstappen in this final race.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:54 pm 
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Ricciardo did well to get 3rd in WDC and except Brazil he has been in fighting for podiums. Monaco was the stand out performance. I never thought anyone could beat Mercs on merit in dry. He was unlucky there. Kimi had 2 DNF in last 3 races and he missed out some podium in the due to bad luck. One of his best season in Ferrari.

Perez and Sainz are not popular but they had great year with respect to their cars. Rosberg too for his consistency.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:09 pm 
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Randine wrote:
Has to be Dan for sure.
3rd in the drivers championship. (equalling Webber's best in the 2nd best car when he was in the best car)

The Red Bull at the start of the year was not the 2nd best car. At many tracks they were outclassed by Ferrari.

I think he has had to change his driving style to match Max. Especially in making the tyres last.
It seems the tables have turned in this regard as Max has been frustrated a few times and burnt out his tyres quickly. e.g. USA when he said "I am not here to finish 4th".

I think this poll would look different had it been taken before Brazil as that seems to have changed people's minds once again on Max.
It was a stunning drive, but still for me not enough to overshadow what Dan has achieved this year.
(Dan was out qualified and out raced at Brazil by Seb in 2014, Kyvat in 2015 and by Max in 2016. That says to me it is not his favourite track!)



I think it is certainly debatable and not "for sure", 5-6 races ago I would probably agree with you. But he has been out qualified by Max in 4 of the last 5 races. Dan was 9-2 up in qualifying and now that is just 10-6. When both have finished is now 6-6. It is all very wafer thin in Dans favour and Dan could actually fall behind in the ahead when both finished and qualifying could end close at 10-7 with Verstappen dominating him 5-1 in the last part of the year which would take a lot of the shin off of Dans year.

Points as team mates is 210-180 in Dans favour, but Max has had 1 mechanical DNF and a DNF in Monaco after a bad weekend whilst Dan has finished every race in the points.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:33 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Randine wrote:
Has to be Dan for sure.
3rd in the drivers championship. (equalling Webber's best in the 2nd best car when he was in the best car)

The Red Bull at the start of the year was not the 2nd best car. At many tracks they were outclassed by Ferrari.

I think he has had to change his driving style to match Max. Especially in making the tyres last.
It seems the tables have turned in this regard as Max has been frustrated a few times and burnt out his tyres quickly. e.g. USA when he said "I am not here to finish 4th".

I think this poll would look different had it been taken before Brazil as that seems to have changed people's minds once again on Max.
It was a stunning drive, but still for me not enough to overshadow what Dan has achieved this year.
(Dan was out qualified and out raced at Brazil by Seb in 2014, Kyvat in 2015 and by Max in 2016. That says to me it is not his favourite track!)



I think it is certainly debatable and not "for sure", 5-6 races ago I would probably agree with you. But he has been out qualified by Max in 4 of the last 5 races. Dan was 9-2 up in qualifying and now that is just 10-6. When both have finished is now 6-6. It is all very wafer thin in Dans favour and Dan could actually fall behind in the ahead when both finished and qualifying could end close at 10-7 with Verstappen dominating him 5-1 in the last part of the year which would take a lot of the shin off of Dans year.

Points as team mates is 210-180 in Dans favour, but Max has had 1 mechanical DNF and a DNF in Monaco after a bad weekend whilst Dan has finished every race in the points.


Yeah but we can't just throw out a driver error DNF from the ahead in two car finishes, surely we need some exceptions. In a 10 race season your team mate could crash out in 9 of them, you can win all 9 of them and be Champ but if in the 10th race your team mate actually manages to keep it on track and he beats you then you've lost that season head to head when both finished?. Really?. Mechanical reasons preventing two car finishes absolutely but driver errors should just be included.

And Max took himself out of the fight with Dan in COTA by his daft pit stop before his failure so we're scrubbing two clear wins from Dan right off the table.

Not for me. And I thought it was 10-6 to Ricciardo in races, what other two have you scrubbed out of interest?.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:03 am 
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Ricciardo and Hamilton. Max has been great but he's also had a couple of head-in-hands disasters

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:17 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
Quick question: What's with the first names and who the hell is Martin? :D


That just indicates the emotional state of the OP. I can not enter this poll because I try to be dispassionate and not emotionally invested, that is why I always reference drivers by their last names.

Martin Whitmarsh?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:20 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Quick question: What's with the first names and who the hell is Martin? :D


That just indicates the emotional state of the OP. I can not enter this poll because I try to be dispassionate and not emotionally invested, that is why I always reference drivers by their last names.

Martin Whitmarsh?


I'm pretty sure it's because he didn't want to waste time looking up the spellings of last names...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:01 am 
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Looks like the folks are quite divided. Only up to 20% agree on the same driver so far.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:47 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Looks like the folks are quite divided. Only up to 20% agree on the same driver so far.


Well we vote for two drivers so the upper ceiling a driver could get is 50%


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:05 am 
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Well the 2 choices I made are 1 and 2 atm (Dan and Fernando).

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:11 am 
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I've gone for Alonso and Ricciardo. Really surprised to see how so many have gone for Verstappen. He's had plenty of stand out performances but also possibly one of the worst race weekends out of any driver. In Monaco, he crashed in practice. Crashed in qualifying. Crashed in the race. Nobody else but him involved. I don't think any other driver has had so many crashes in the same weekend enough to have to retire the car. Ricciardo is quite easily the best driver on the grid if we take into account that pertty much every other driver has made at leased on costly mistake somewhere. He's been really solid. Verstappen has beaten his quite a lot infact but Ricciardo has just been behind him and at leased is keeping out of trouble. There have been one or two races this year when it's been Ricciardo leading Verstappen but Verstappen has been taking a few to many risks and making a messy job of it. Then there was Mexico where I would probably blame Verstappen for pushing Rosberg off the track in the first corner. And then ignoring the teams advice about giving the place back. But that is just his attitude, not his driving I suppose.

Taking into account the poor performances from Verstappen and the penalties he's collected, I think Ricciardo has been far better and it is amazing the amount of votes Verstappen has. He also did something very dangerous in Canada practice which he got a reprimand for. Was driving very slowly on the racing line when on a warm up lap when Bottas was on a fast timed lap approaching fast. It was a blind corner for Bottas so he had no idea that Verstappen will have been there. He had to take fast avoiding action and cut the corner. Verstappen got off lightly with just a reprimand for that. From what I can remember, Ricciardo just hasn't made any of these sorts of mistakes at any points in the season. Correct me if I'm wrong.

About Alonso, although I blame him for his crash in Australia, he's made up for it since then and has pretty much made no mistakes at all. He's had loads of 7th place finishes and plenty of other finishes in the points to. Making the most out of his bad car. Even though Massa has had 4 retirements now, it is still hard to believe that Alonso is leading him in the championship. There is no doubt that it is either great driving from Alonso, or a really poor last season from Massa. I'd say it is a bit of both.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:40 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Then there was Mexico where I would probably blame Verstappen for pushing Rosberg off the track in the first corner. And then ignoring the teams advice about giving the place back.


Bit weird to see this idea still lives among some. It is not true - he listened to the team who first told him he "probably" would have to give it back, Max then asking to give him confirmation on that after which the team explicitly told him to stay. No other directive came after that.

Read for yourself:
Quote:
68 From Max Verstappen OK give the position, I think you’re going to have to give the position, Max
68 To Max Verstappen Let me know.
68 From Max Verstappen OK stay there.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:43 am 
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Anyway, voted Ricciardo and Alonso. Verstappen and Hamilton would round out my top 4, then probably Perez and Sainz.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:27 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Then there was Mexico where I would probably blame Verstappen for pushing Rosberg off the track in the first corner. And then ignoring the teams advice about giving the place back.


Bit weird to see this idea still lives among some. It is not true - he listened to the team who first told him he "probably" would have to give it back, Max then asking to give him confirmation on that after which the team explicitly told him to stay. No other directive came after that.

Read for yourself:
Quote:
68 From Max Verstappen OK give the position, I think you’re going to have to give the position, Max
68 To Max Verstappen Let me know.
68 From Max Verstappen OK stay there.


Ok, but he still should have realized that by not braking at the right point and leaving it until late with vettel right beside him, that Vettel would have got past it he didn't cut the corner. He should have listen to the very first thing that was said which was "OK, give the position" Anyway, it resulted in a penalty and he should have realized that it would if he didn't give it back in my view.

Anyway, not that this really matters, but why does it say that the team says "let me know" to Verstappen? and what is from the team says it is from Verstappen. It just all seems to be the wrong way round. Where was it quoted from?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:39 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Then there was Mexico where I would probably blame Verstappen for pushing Rosberg off the track in the first corner. And then ignoring the teams advice about giving the place back.
Bit weird to see this idea still lives among some. It is not true - he listened to the team who first told him he "probably" would have to give it back, Max then asking to give him confirmation on that after which the team explicitly told him to stay. No other directive came after that.

Read for yourself:
Quote:
68 From Max Verstappen OK give the position, I think you’re going to have to give the position, Max
68 To Max Verstappen Let me know.
68 From Max Verstappen OK stay there.
Ok, but he still should have realized that by not braking at the right point and leaving it until late with vettel right beside him, that Vettel would have got past it he didn't cut the corner. He should have listen to the very first thing that was said which was "OK, give the position" Anyway, it resulted in a penalty and he should have realized that it would if he didn't give it back in my view.

Anyway, not that this really matters, but why does it say that the team says "let me know" to Verstappen? and what is from the team says it is from Verstappen. It just all seems to be the wrong way round. Where was it quoted from?
Quoted from radio transcript of the Grand Prix (scroll down to lap 68). My take on it is that the team were expecting Race Direction to advise Max to relinquish the position but that advice did not come through so, on that basis, Max was told to hold station. Max himself may have been worried that he may need to give the position up and, likewise, was probably waiting on similar advice that was not forthcoming. I'm not disagreeing with the penalty, but I will not blame Max for not giving the position up.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:47 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Ok, but he still should have realized that by not braking at the right point and leaving it until late with vettel right beside him, that Vettel would have got past it he didn't cut the corner. He should have listen to the very first thing that was said which was "OK, give the position" Anyway, it resulted in a penalty and he should have realized that it would if he didn't give it back in my view.


I disagree on two points.

1. I don't see why he should have listened to only the first seconds of a radio communication and ignore the rest. This is racing, and racing for a podium. The first instruction was unclear, he asked for confirmation, the next message was very clear. He did exactly what the team asked.

2. I don't see why he should have realized that he would get a penalty. The reason is simple: I can't think of even one case where a LEADING driver, even under attack, cut a corner and had to give the place to the attacking driver. Conversely, there are various instances where drivers cut curners when under attack, who would have lost the place if they hadn't cut the corner, and that weren't required to give the place.

Heck we're not even talking to give the place "back" as it was never lost in the firs place.

Quote:
Anyway, not that this really matters, but why does it say that the team says "let me know" to Verstappen? and what is from the team says it is from Verstappen. It just all seems to be the wrong way round. Where was it quoted from?


Keith just got the directions mixed up.

Last thing: if he had given it up, he would have finished a guaranteed fifth and Dan third or fourth. That is not better than holding position and risking a penalty. Ultimately he got fourth and Dan third. He/they made the right choice.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:52 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Ok, but he still should have realized that by not braking at the right point and leaving it until late with vettel right beside him, that Vettel would have got past it he didn't cut the corner. He should have listen to the very first thing that was said which was "OK, give the position" Anyway, it resulted in a penalty and he should have realized that it would if he didn't give it back in my view.


I disagree on two points.

1. I don't see why he should have listened to only the first seconds of a radio communication and ignore the rest. This is racing, and racing for a podium. The first instruction was unclear, he asked for confirmation, the next message was very clear. He did exactly what the team asked.

2. I don't see why he should have realized that he would get a penalty. The reason is simple: I can't think of even one case where a LEADING driver, even under attack, cut a corner and had to give the place to the attacking driver. Conversely, there are various instances where drivers cut curners when under attack, who would have lost the place if they hadn't cut the corner, and that weren't required to give the place.

Heck we're not even talking to give the place "back" as it was never lost in the firs place.

Quote:
Anyway, not that this really matters, but why does it say that the team says "let me know" to Verstappen? and what is from the team says it is from Verstappen. It just all seems to be the wrong way round. Where was it quoted from?


Keith just got the directions mixed up.

Last thing: if he had given it up, he would have finished a guaranteed fifth and Dan third or fourth. That is not better than holding position and risking a penalty. Ultimately he got fourth and Dan third. He/they made the right choice.

OK, I won't argue with most of those points but the fact is that if he had braked at the normal point, Vettel would have been pretty much a long side him at the start of the corner. He braked late and this made him have to cut across and gain an advantage. That is a good reason why I think he should have known it could well have resulted in a penalty. Verstappen came out the corner he had cut far further ahead of Vettel than he would have done if he had braked that little bit earlier. Vettel very likely would have come out ahead in fact. It was his own fault that he left it too late and locked up then ended up cutting the corner. I don't know how he wouldn't expect a penalty when he was so close to being overtaken but prevented that from happening by braking too late and cutting the corner. He had the option and plenty of room to drive back onto the track which he should have done instead of cutting the corner. But ok, if the team did say not to do anything, them I suppose that is ok. But I really think the penalty or something else should have been decided faster than it was. Not that that was to do with Verstappen or the team.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:26 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Ok, but he still should have realized that by not braking at the right point and leaving it until late with vettel right beside him, that Vettel would have got past it he didn't cut the corner. He should have listen to the very first thing that was said which was "OK, give the position" Anyway, it resulted in a penalty and he should have realized that it would if he didn't give it back in my view.


I disagree on two points.

1. I don't see why he should have listened to only the first seconds of a radio communication and ignore the rest. This is racing, and racing for a podium. The first instruction was unclear, he asked for confirmation, the next message was very clear. He did exactly what the team asked.

2. I don't see why he should have realized that he would get a penalty. The reason is simple: I can't think of even one case where a LEADING driver, even under attack, cut a corner and had to give the place to the attacking driver. Conversely, there are various instances where drivers cut curners when under attack, who would have lost the place if they hadn't cut the corner, and that weren't required to give the place.

Heck we're not even talking to give the place "back" as it was never lost in the firs place.

Quote:
Anyway, not that this really matters, but why does it say that the team says "let me know" to Verstappen? and what is from the team says it is from Verstappen. It just all seems to be the wrong way round. Where was it quoted from?


Keith just got the directions mixed up.

Last thing: if he had given it up, he would have finished a guaranteed fifth and Dan third or fourth. That is not better than holding position and risking a penalty. Ultimately he got fourth and Dan third. He/they made the right choice.

OK, I won't argue with most of those points but the fact is that if he had braked at the normal point, Vettel would have been pretty much a long side him at the start of the corner. He braked late and this made him have to cut across and gain an advantage. That is a good reason why I think he should have known it could well have resulted in a penalty. Verstappen came out the corner he had cut far further ahead of Vettel than he would have done if he had braked that little bit earlier. Vettel very likely would have come out ahead in fact. It was his own fault that he left it too late and locked up then ended up cutting the corner. I don't know how he wouldn't expect a penalty when he was so close to being overtaken but prevented that from happening by braking too late and cutting the corner. He had the option and plenty of room to drive back onto the track which he should have done instead of cutting the corner. But ok, if the team did say not to do anything, them I suppose that is ok. But I really think the penalty or something else should have been decided faster than it was. Not that that was to do with Verstappen or the team.


Even if a penalty had been handed out it would have to been for after the race as it was the last 3 laps.


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