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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:48 am 
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No race wins. 2 Pole Positions. 1 Fastest lap. 9 Podiums. 78 starts.

His podium return is quite good but slightly distorted by the fact Williams had the second fastest car in 2014 in my opinion thanks to Mercedes power and perhaps he could have had more. Although it's quite impressive he managed to get a couple of poles against the Mercedes duo, but maybe thanks to a poor Mercedes setup.

I think the guy can win races but beat Hamilton regularly? I think I'd be quite shocked but he seems focussed enough. Realistically I think he might end up like Heikki Kovaleinen all over again. Get a couple of poor seasons with a lucky single race win because Hamilton dominates the team.

Is Bottas really an unknown quality or do Williams and Mercedes know a lot more than us? Personally I think the only drivers currently in the same league as Hamilton are Vettel and Alonso with Verstappen entering the frame.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:00 am 
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Not sure about the Williams being second best car in 2014. It was on certain occasions, but not consistently. The RBR chassis was always the better one.

Anyway, as for the main point: I don't think so, and I think that's exactly why he seems to be the prime candidate: because he's good, but not as good as Hamilton, and so a "safe" choice that won't disrupt the team harmony.

But such things can turn out the other way. 3 years ago, a lot of people were saying how Ricciardo was just a safe #2 choice for RBR...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:03 am 
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Bottas IMO is a steady, top of 2nd tier driver - ideal for Merc as a No. 2 to Lewis.

I'm more interested in whether Williams are going to make it clear that they have zero aspirations to become a WCC contender next season - as this would be the case if they let Bottas go and end up with 2 rookies.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:29 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
No race wins. 2 Pole Positions. 1 Fastest lap. 9 Podiums. 78 starts.

His podium return is quite good but slightly distorted by the fact Williams had the second fastest car in 2014 in my opinion thanks to Mercedes power and perhaps he could have had more. Although it's quite impressive he managed to get a couple of poles against the Mercedes duo, but maybe thanks to a poor Mercedes setup.

I think the guy can win races but beat Hamilton regularly? I think I'd be quite shocked but he seems focussed enough. Realistically I think he might end up like Heikki Kovaleinen all over again. Get a couple of poor seasons with a lucky single race win because Hamilton dominates the team.

Is Bottas really an unknown quality or do Williams and Mercedes know a lot more than us? Personally I think the only drivers currently in the same league as Hamilton are Vettel and Alonso with Verstappen entering the frame.


2 pole positions? You're wrong. Bottas has a grand total of ZERO pole positions.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:42 am 
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Don't know until we see it happen. Only a tiny minority predicted the Dan v Seb matchup to work out the way it did. And you could hardly hold the 0 wins against him

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:51 am 
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I'd say, not quite as fast as Rosberg, or perhaps on a similar level at most.

But I bet he is better in the wet


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:52 am 
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Does anyone believe he'll join Mercedes if told he'll be no. 2 driver in the team?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:08 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Does anyone believe he'll join Mercedes if told he'll be no. 2 driver in the team?


It sure is a lot better than being #1 at Williams.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:20 am 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
No race wins. 2 Pole Positions. 1 Fastest lap. 9 Podiums. 78 starts.

His podium return is quite good but slightly distorted by the fact Williams had the second fastest car in 2014 in my opinion thanks to Mercedes power and perhaps he could have had more. Although it's quite impressive he managed to get a couple of poles against the Mercedes duo, but maybe thanks to a poor Mercedes setup.

I think the guy can win races but beat Hamilton regularly? I think I'd be quite shocked but he seems focussed enough. Realistically I think he might end up like Heikki Kovaleinen all over again. Get a couple of poor seasons with a lucky single race win because Hamilton dominates the team.

Is Bottas really an unknown quality or do Williams and Mercedes know a lot more than us? Personally I think the only drivers currently in the same league as Hamilton are Vettel and Alonso with Verstappen entering the frame.


2 pole positions? You're wrong. Bottas has a grand total of ZERO pole positions.


Thank you - I was trying to remember where he got them.

I imagine OP is mis-remembering Massa getting a pole in 2014.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:51 am 
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mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Does anyone believe he'll join Mercedes if told he'll be no. 2 driver in the team?


It sure is a lot better than being #1 at Williams.
If you've given up on your drive to become a champion, yes. If not, not. But I can't see Mercedes becoming a team that would recruit a number 2 all of a sudden.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:55 am 
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it is difficult for a driver to show his speed when he has never been in a top car , but he has easily beaten massa
that is all you can do in a midfield car is beat ya team mate as he has- I don't believe merc want a no 2, and do not see him as such

merc are going for bottas, and Williams have rejected merc's first bid , but he 'll be at merc next year
Williams are pushing for a better deal which could happen a few more times yet , they will get bottas, purely because merc are a little bit in the pooh pooh and bottas will do a great job anyway so its a win win situation for everybody , we must not judge bottas's speed in a 2016 Williams -he has the speed


Last edited by slide on Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:13 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Does anyone believe he'll join Mercedes if told he'll be no. 2 driver in the team?


It sure is a lot better than being #1 at Williams.
If you've given up on your drive to become a champion, yes. If not, not.


If you still have a drive to become a champion then it's clear you should not be at Williams. Once in a top team the possibilities are there. To name a few:
- Hamilton retires or switches teams, Bottas has shown enough to be at least on equal status with the replacing driver
- Bottas shows enough to attract attention from other top teams like Ferrari or (hopefully in a few years) McLaren and get a contract with at least equal status
- Bottas actually proves to be faster, making management reconsider their driver policy

Quote:
But I can't see Mercedes becoming a team that would recruit a number 2 all of a sudden.


In that case I think Alonso would have been signed and announced already.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:28 pm 
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mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Does anyone believe he'll join Mercedes if told he'll be no. 2 driver in the team?


It sure is a lot better than being #1 at Williams.
If you've given up on your drive to become a champion, yes. If not, not.


If you still have a drive to become a champion then it's clear you should not be at Williams. Once in a top team the possibilities are there. To name a few:
- Hamilton retires or switches teams, Bottas has shown enough to be at least on equal status with the replacing driver
- Bottas shows enough to attract attention from other top teams like Ferrari or (hopefully in a few years) McLaren and get a contract with at least equal status
- Bottas actually proves to be faster, making management reconsider their driver policy

Quote:
But I can't see Mercedes becoming a team that would recruit a number 2 all of a sudden.


In that case I think Alonso would have been signed and announced already.

I'm with you in that I think it's far, far better to be a #2 at a team like Mercedes than a #1 at a team like Williams. Drivers at the front always have a much better chance of capturing people's attention, both from spectators and people within the sport. You only have to look at the way people vote on Driver of the Day/Year to see that. Plus if you manage to get a bit of luck things might fall your way and you stand a chance of competing for wins etc.

But I'm not sure I'd agree about not signing Alonso being any kind of example of Mercedes' intent. We don't know how watertight Alonso's contract is, for example, plus they might be looking at how things imploded so spectacularly between Lewis and Nico, and between Lewis and Alonso last time, and conclude that the potential risks outweigh the rewards. And let's not forget Wolff part-manages Bottas, so he may have higher opinion of his abilities than some on here do.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:29 pm 
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Alonso has been waiting for the pot of honey and it will be delivered next year wether its tasty or not we do not yet know and Flavio has said the McLaren contract will not be broken anyway


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:33 pm 
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mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Does anyone believe he'll join Mercedes if told he'll be no. 2 driver in the team?


It sure is a lot better than being #1 at Williams.
If you've given up on your drive to become a champion, yes. If not, not.


If you still have a drive to become a champion then it's clear you should not be at Williams. Once in a top team the possibilities are there. To name a few:
- Hamilton retires or switches teams, Bottas has shown enough to be at least on equal status with the replacing driver
- Bottas shows enough to attract attention from other top teams like Ferrari or (hopefully in a few years) McLaren and get a contract with at least equal status
- Bottas actually proves to be faster, making management reconsider their driver policy

Quote:
But I can't see Mercedes becoming a team that would recruit a number 2 all of a sudden.


In that case I think Alonso would have been signed and announced already.
You seem to forget that teams need to have a vacancy, before they can sign a driver under normal circumstances. Bottas can only show his qualities in the car he gets to drive. Whether that car suits his style is something we don't know. We know he showed well against Massa, who was good enough to be the champion of 2008 (and should have been, but we'll let that go).
Ferrari and Red Bull both had their drivers, so just like Mercedes, there was no vacancy until Rosberg retired. I can only hope McLaren turns into a top team again next year, if only for Stoffel's sake. But they aren't at the moment, so that's all the top teams covered.

Bottas is the only really available driver, I believe, unless Alonso's contract says otherwise. But would Mercedes really risk being jinxed by him? ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:43 pm 
Would he have won the 2016 WDC? Possibly, no matter how average he was, Hamilton blew 3 race starts and had 4 mechanical issues - that would have been 6-7 race wins immediately. If Mercedes are dominant again, he will win a lot of races as it is will probably still be first car to first corner and if starts are unpredictable and Mercedes has its usual 2-3 mechanical issues per car, that's a lot of race wins for Bottas.

I am not entirely sure just how quick he is. My gut feeling is that he was about 0.2 up on Massa, which is about half of what Alonso had to him. This should put him somewhere around or slightly slower than Rosberg IMO. However, given its a new team and environment maybe for the first year he would be slightly further behind.

Does anyone have head to head data against Massa?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:03 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
... I think the guy can win races but beat Hamilton regularly..?
If Hamilton is acknowledged as one of the fastest (if not the fastest) driver out there at the moment, can anyone beat him 'regularly?'

Assuming the Merc will still be the class of the field in 2017 (and that is an assumption), anyone stepping into the vacant seat is instantly a championship contender. Bottas has shown that he is very capable of racing at the sharp end, so why not?

Edited for punctuation!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:14 pm 
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The multi-million dollar question.

If you forget this year as Massa had decided he was going to hang up the helmet, Bottas at times hasn't smashed Massa.
When Massa was at Ferrari in 2013, it seemed most people thought he was past it and was over due to leave F1.
Did Massa have a complete turn around in form and drive near his best in 2014 and 2015?
If you believe so, then yes, maybe Bottas is good enough to push Hamilton.

If however Massa drove only marginally better after leaving Ferrari, then that doesn't paint Bottas as a serious title contender.
Maybe a top driver might have won a race or 2 with the 2014 Williams.

Also with Williams poaching 2 of Lotus' sponsors and 3rd in the championship, they had a reported extra 55 million for 2016. It certainly didn't help, so maybe that shows that Bottas and Massa couldn't assist the engineers (provide right feedback) to move the car forwards.

In any rate, if the Merc is as solid as it has been since 2014 next year, Bottas is a safe choice.
He is reliable and rarely makes mistakes.
He could have easily driven the 2016 Merc to 2nd most weekends.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:22 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Would he have won the 2016 WDC? Possibly, no matter how average he was, Hamilton blew 3 race starts and had 4 mechanical issues - that would have been 6-7 race wins immediately. If Mercedes are dominant again, he will win a lot of races as it is will probably still be first car to first corner and if starts are unpredictable and Mercedes has its usual 2-3 mechanical issues per car, that's a lot of race wins for Bottas.

I am not entirely sure just how quick he is. My gut feeling is that he was about 0.2 up on Massa, which is about half of what Alonso had to him. This should put him somewhere around or slightly slower than Rosberg IMO. However, given its a new team and environment maybe for the first year he would be slightly further behind.

Does anyone have head to head data against Massa?


Fair points but doesn't take into account Massa's mental state.
Team orders and years and years of being in the pressure cooker of Ferrari might have taken a few tenths out of his best times.
When he went to Williams he was smiling a lot more, looked at ease, and maybe he did pick up his performance as a result.
I have no idea where to rate Bottas. But you are on the money to suggest better than Massa, worse than Alonso!!! :lol: 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:25 pm 
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It is not that you just have to be fast, you have to be able to handle your teammate trying to run you off the racetrack, accusing you of strange things and throwing caps at you on a regular basis. :uhoh:

And your teammate will call it "handle the heat"...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:24 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
... I think the guy can win races but beat Hamilton regularly..?
If Hamilton is acknowledged as one of the fastest (if not the fastest) driver out there at the moment, can anyone beat him 'regularly?'

Assuming the Merc will still be the class of the field in 2017 (and that is an assumption), anyone stepping into the vacant seat is instantly a championship contender. Bottas has shown that he is very capable of racing at the sharp end, so why not?

Edited for punctuation!

Being the fastest is not the only thing that matters.
Also be the most consistent, the most ingelligent, the one who makes less mistakes, the one who looks better after the tires and the car, and so on


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:53 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Would he have won the 2016 WDC? Possibly, no matter how average he was, Hamilton blew 3 race starts and had 4 mechanical issues - that would have been 6-7 race wins immediately. If Mercedes are dominant again, he will win a lot of races as it is will probably still be first car to first corner and if starts are unpredictable and Mercedes has its usual 2-3 mechanical issues per car, that's a lot of race wins for Bottas.

I am not entirely sure just how quick he is. My gut feeling is that he was about 0.2 up on Massa, which is about half of what Alonso had to him. This should put him somewhere around or slightly slower than Rosberg IMO. However, given its a new team and environment maybe for the first year he would be slightly further behind.

Does anyone have head to head data against Massa?

The deficit from one guy to another in different cars cannot be used as a benchmark as different cars behave differently and require different things to make them go at their very peek. The Ferrari might have been a more difficult car to drive on the limit so a driver like Alonso who has supreme ability would be able to squeeze out a bit more out of it, but a demotivated Massa would have also not been focused enough to stay with his teammate and that can add to the gap from one driver to another. The Williams might have been a tad easier to drive, allowing both guys to extract from the car more similarly, hence the times being closer.

As for how Quick Bottas would be against Hamilton or anyone else would depend on them driving the same car which hasn't happened yet.
Once they do we will have a little better idea as to how fast he is and how fast Massa was, but again, different cars, different characteristics, which means different drivers will excel differently.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:00 pm 
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No, he'll get smoked this year. I'm sure Hamilton is loving this.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:35 pm 
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i wonder if williams will get enough cash from merc to call button and offer him enough to do one more year ?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:58 pm 
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
lamo wrote:
Would he have won the 2016 WDC? Possibly, no matter how average he was, Hamilton blew 3 race starts and had 4 mechanical issues - that would have been 6-7 race wins immediately. If Mercedes are dominant again, he will win a lot of races as it is will probably still be first car to first corner and if starts are unpredictable and Mercedes has its usual 2-3 mechanical issues per car, that's a lot of race wins for Bottas.

I am not entirely sure just how quick he is. My gut feeling is that he was about 0.2 up on Massa, which is about half of what Alonso had to him. This should put him somewhere around or slightly slower than Rosberg IMO. However, given its a new team and environment maybe for the first year he would be slightly further behind.

Does anyone have head to head data against Massa?

The deficit from one guy to another in different cars cannot be used as a benchmark as different cars behave differently and require different things to make them go at their very peek. The Ferrari might have been a more difficult car to drive on the limit so a driver like Alonso who has supreme ability would be able to squeeze out a bit more out of it, but a demotivated Massa would have also not been focused enough to stay with his teammate and that can add to the gap from one driver to another. The Williams might have been a tad easier to drive, allowing both guys to extract from the car more similarly, hence the times being closer.

As for how Quick Bottas would be against Hamilton or anyone else would depend on them driving the same car which hasn't happened yet.
Once they do we will have a little better idea as to how fast he is and how fast Massa was, but again, different cars, different characteristics, which means different drivers will excel differently.



Whilst I agree in principle, we have seen the following with Massa.

Pretty equal pace with Raikkonen over two or three completely different car/tyre package/ driver aids...
2007 - Bridgestone grooved tyres and traction control
2008 - Bridgestone grooved tyres and no traction control
2009 - entirely different aero and slick tyres

A pretty consistent gap to Alonso in four different cars, two tyres brands and 3 different tyre philosophies
2010 - Bridgestone tyres
2011 - Pirelli tyres
2012/13 - Re-designed Pirelli tyres

We have never seen big variations in Massa's performances with the slight exception of 2008 when he out performed Kimi in the 2nd half of the season but that is well documented as Raikkonen under par due to not being able to get heat in his tyres for qualifying and started races very low down which was game over back then.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:00 pm 
pc27b wrote:
i wonder if williams will get enough cash from merc to call button and offer him enough to do one more year ?


I would love to see that


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:18 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pc27b wrote:
i wonder if williams will get enough cash from merc to call button and offer him enough to do one more year ?


I would love to see that


I would too but can't everybody tell that Button simply doesn't want to be in F1 next year. He actually said that he was pleased that there was only one more race to go before he could stop racing in F1. Why would any team want him if he wants a break from the sport. Williams would be a great team for him if he wanted to continue and as others have said, I would also love to see him at Williams. However, I think it would be far more likely that they would ask Massa to return. I don't think he wanted to retire, so I think he would be willing to do another season as the lead driver if Williams asked him to. But even that is really unlikely. More likely than Button going to Williams though I think.

Even though Williams have turned down the first offer, I still think it will happen and Bottas will go there. Mercedes will keep trying. About the thread title question, I don't think it is just speed that matters. Having 2 drivers that have totally different driving styles that are both good is better than having 2 with very similar styles. E.g, I don't think Hamilton and Verstappen would be as good a pair of team mates as Bottas and Hamilton. Hamilton and Verstappen are both extremely aggressive and I just feel more like there will be a clash waiting to happen similar to what Hamilton has had with Rosberg several times over the seasons. Bottas is a very relaxed and consistent driver and should keep it clean and would be a very good team mate. Asking about if he is fast enough is a bit irreverent really IMO. Smooth and consistent driving can often result in the same amount of points as being an aggressive driver. Possibly more at times.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:07 pm 
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At the end of the day I think Bottas will not feel great towards Williams if they block what could be his only opportunity to land a drive with a championship contending team, and the opportunity to be measured against a multiple WDC, widely considered the fastest in the sport.

Merc will get him, unless he's not their actual target.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:12 pm 
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
At the end of the day I think Bottas will not feel great towards Williams if they block what could be his only opportunity to land a drive with a championship contending team, and the opportunity to be measured against a multiple WDC, widely considered the fastest in the sport.

Merc will get him, unless he's not their actual target.


It raises the question - what is usually in contracts regarding immediate retirement?

He could simply say, let me go and you'll get 10m for me or I am retiring and you'll get nothing and be without a driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:18 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
At the end of the day I think Bottas will not feel great towards Williams if they block what could be his only opportunity to land a drive with a championship contending team, and the opportunity to be measured against a multiple WDC, widely considered the fastest in the sport.

Merc will get him, unless he's not their actual target.


It raises the question - what is usually in contracts regarding immediate retirement?

He could simply say, let me go and you'll get 10m for me or I am retiring and you'll get nothing and be without a driver.


I would assume he wouldn't be able to sign for another team until the duration of his existing contract expired.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:18 pm 
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I really don't think he is as fast or faster than hamilton. That doesn't mean Lewis won't be outperformed by him on occasion. Lewis, as we know, has his highs and lows. If Valterri does not have the speed to push Lewis regularly this won't be good for Mercedes. Part of the Mercedes domination was the fact Nico pushed Lewis often on Saturdays. The chase for the ultimate pace was there on every weekend. Bottas has some huge shoes to fill, make no mistake.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:42 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I really don't think he is as fast or faster than hamilton. That doesn't mean Lewis won't be outperformed by him on occasion. Lewis, as we know, has his highs and lows. If Valterri does not have the speed to push Lewis regularly this won't be good for Mercedes. Part of the Mercedes domination was the fact Nico pushed Lewis often on Saturdays. The chase for the ultimate pace was there on every weekend. Bottas has some huge shoes to fill, make no mistake.

He does, but if he doesn't feel he can fill them then why is he even here? He's got to be viewing this as the chance of a lifetime.

I think Bottas may well be able to hold his own against Lewis for one lap pace. But, as we've seen with Rosberg, a good driver needs more than one-lap pace. I can't shake the notion that Bottas is a Rosberg mini-me, but I hope I'm wrong


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:43 pm 
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""I would too but can't everybody tell that Button simply doesn't want to be in F1 next year. He actually said that he was pleased that there was only one more race to go before he could stop racing in F1. Why would any team want him if he wants a break from the sport. ""

if it wasn't for the young guy at mclaren, button would be racing for them in 17. he also wondered if he quit f1 to soon, and money talks. anyways it is all just speculation


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:54 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
if it wasn't for the young guy at mclaren, button would be racing for them in 17. he also wondered if he quit f1 to soon, and money talks. anyways it is all just speculation
I take everything I read from our "national" press concerning Stoffel with a handful of salt, but are you saying Jenson had to make room for Stoffel? I would be seriously suprised if he had. I understand that they can't hang onto him without offering him a drive for more than one season, but still.

Jenson is a fallback solution only for Mercedes. With Alonso out of the picture, what other possibilities does Mercedes have, besides Bottas? I think Perez, Hülkenberg and Grosjean might fit the bill, but every question mark placed against Wally's name also goes against the others.

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Last edited by Fiki on Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:54 pm 
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
At the end of the day I think Bottas will not feel great towards Williams if they block what could be his only opportunity to land a drive with a championship contending team, and the opportunity to be measured against a multiple WDC, widely considered the fastest in the sport.

Merc will get him, unless he's not their actual target.


It raises the question - what is usually in contracts regarding immediate retirement?

He could simply say, let me go and you'll get 10m for me or I am retiring and you'll get nothing and be without a driver.


I would assume he wouldn't be able to sign for another team until the duration of his existing contract expired.


Yes, that is my assumption too. But if he had the balls to stick to it, Williams would be forced to let him go or lose the 10 million they would get for him. Either way they are without him, in one scenario they have 10m in the other they have nothing. He holds the cards if he really wants to force a move.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:57 pm 
Fiki wrote:
pc27b wrote:
if it wasn't for the young guy at mclaren, button would be racing for them in 17. he also wondered if he quit f1 to soon, and money talks. anyways it is all just speculation
I take everything I read from our "national" press concerning Stoffel with a handful of salt, but are you saying Jenson had to make room for Stoffel? I would be seriously suprised if he had. I understand that they can't hang onto him without offering him a drive for more than one season, but still.

Jenson is a fallback solution only for Mercedes. With Alonso out of the picture, what other possibilities does Mercedes have, besides Bottas? I think Perez, Hülkenberg and Grosjean might fit the bill, but every question mark placed against Wally's name also goes against the others.


I think it became a no brainer for Mclaren, Stoffel isn't even really a risk and will probably earn at most £1-2 million per year. Jenson was still earning £12-15 million per season. A huge saving for probably a better driver at this point and certainly a better prospect for future seasons.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:04 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
At the end of the day I think Bottas will not feel great towards Williams if they block what could be his only opportunity to land a drive with a championship contending team, and the opportunity to be measured against a multiple WDC, widely considered the fastest in the sport.

Merc will get him, unless he's not their actual target.


It raises the question - what is usually in contracts regarding immediate retirement?

He could simply say, let me go and you'll get 10m for me or I am retiring and you'll get nothing and be without a driver.


I would assume he wouldn't be able to sign for another team until the duration of his existing contract expired.


Yes, that is my assumption too. But if he had the balls to stick to it, Williams would be forced to let him go or lose the 10 million they would get for him. Either way they are without him, in one scenario they have 10m in the other they have nothing. He holds the cards if he really wants to force a move.


Except - Would Mercedes continue to be interested in a driver who would do that to his team?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pc27b wrote:
if it wasn't for the young guy at mclaren, button would be racing for them in 17. he also wondered if he quit f1 to soon, and money talks. anyways it is all just speculation
I take everything I read from our "national" press concerning Stoffel with a handful of salt, but are you saying Jenson had to make room for Stoffel? I would be seriously suprised if he had. I understand that they can't hang onto him without offering him a drive for more than one season, but still.

Jenson is a fallback solution only for Mercedes. With Alonso out of the picture, what other possibilities does Mercedes have, besides Bottas? I think Perez, Hülkenberg and Grosjean might fit the bill, but every question mark placed against Wally's name also goes against the others.

I fully believe he had to make room for Stoffel. And it was time - I saw enough in Vandoorne's one F1 GP to see that making the move up to the big time is no hassle for him

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:09 pm 
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The way I see it, and I could well be wrong, is that he would not be "against" Hamilton but complimenting him.
He should be there to take second places away from any other team, and if it happened that Hamilton was in in the lead, it would be his job to take up the cudgels and win it.

I think Merc will look back at this year and see they have made a rod for their own back by letting their drivers have a free fight ( so glad they did though ) and next year, when things should be closer, they will need teamwork to get maximum points.

Once he is settled in, and if he seems good enough, then I hope Merc will cut them lose again


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:11 pm 
mikeyg123>
I think that is probably how the business basically works behind closed doors. Especially with Williams being a customer of Mercedes and the head of Mercedes being the drivers manager and having good links with the team in the past.

Jensons contract jumping didn't harm his reputation for too long back in 2005/2006


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