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How will Bottas do?
More points than Lewis 10%  10%  [ 8 ]
90-99% 10%  10%  [ 8 ]
75-89% 58%  58%  [ 45 ]
50-75% 18%  18%  [ 14 ]
Less than 50% 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 77
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:04 am 
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I think people are underestimating Bottas. He's quick, consistent and has shown that he is probably better wheel-to-wheel than Rosberg was. I can't see him beating Hamilton over the season but I think he'll be more like a fighty Rosberg than say another Kovalainen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:50 pm 
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Somewhere in between Rosberg and Kovalainen.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Well, I actually didn't vote here. But Bottas currently has 81% of Hamilton's points if I round it to the nearest percentage. So it certainly looks like most people will be right by the end of the season with the votes cast at the start. But given how many seem to have been saying that his season has been disappointing overall is a bit much really.

He's scored 45% of the championship points for Mercedes and Hamilton has got just 10% more. From these stats, what Bottas has done is a very solid job for a number 2 driver.

In 2015, Rosberg got 46% of the teams points when rounded to the nearest percentage. I know Bottas has one more race to go. But he isn't far off that at all is he? And as lamo said at the start of this thread, Rosberg had 85% of Hamilton's points.


This was Rosbergs 6th year with Mercedes. And it was Hamilton's 3rd. Rosberg has 2 advantages over Bottas. He was much more used to the team and Mercedes were well ahead of any other team for virtually the whole season. This year is Bottas's first season with the team. And now Hamilton's 5th and Mercedes have been fighting with Ferrari from the start and even Red Bull occasionally now. Many are saying Hamilton has found a new level this year and is better than ever. Considering how much Bottas has done in his first year with Mercedes, I think many have been overly harsh on him. He's lost a bit of form in the 2nd half of the season, but he still does the job well and usually gets solid results.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:16 pm 
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I said 75%. Bottas has done quite a bit better than that but his performance reflects what I imagined would happen. He's been much worse than Lewis in his first year at Mercedes. I'll stick with the prediction of 85-90% of Hamilton's points for their second season together. Bottas should do better next year, but in equal cars I don't give him a hope of challenging Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:31 pm 
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lamo wrote:
So far, 5 votes and one for each. I will bring this thread back up next season so get your opinions down now and we can enjoy bringing it back in the middle of next season. I am going for 80% but that could swing 10% either way given reliability and errors.


A Hamilton win with Bottas third in AD brings it to exactly 80% :-P

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:34 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I actually didn't vote here. But Bottas currently has 81% of Hamilton's points if I round it to the nearest percentage. So it certainly looks like most people will be right by the end of the season with the votes cast at the start. But given how many seem to have been saying that his season has been disappointing overall is a bit much really.

He's scored 45% of the championship points for Mercedes and Hamilton has got just 10% more. From these stats, what Bottas has done is a very solid job for a number 2 driver.

In 2015, Rosberg got 46% of the teams points when rounded to the nearest percentage. I know Bottas has one more race to go. But he isn't far off that at all is he? And as lamo said at the start of this thread, Rosberg had 85% of Hamilton's points.


This was Rosbergs 6th year with Mercedes. And it was Hamilton's 3rd. Rosberg has 2 advantages over Bottas. He was much more used to the team and Mercedes were well ahead of any other team for virtually the whole season. This year is Bottas's first season with the team. And now Hamilton's 5th and Mercedes have been fighting with Ferrari from the start and even Red Bull occasionally now. Many are saying Hamilton has found a new level this year and is better than ever. Considering how much Bottas has done in his first year with Mercedes, I think many have been overly harsh on him. He's lost a bit of form in the 2nd half of the season, but he still does the job well and usually gets solid results.


You are comparing Nico's worst year of his 4 alongside Lewis. It was also a year in which he had worst luck than Lewis (2 break down DNFs to Hamiltons one which happened in a race he was running 5th in anyway - Singapore). This year I would now say that Hamilton has had slightly worst luck that Bottas.

Having said that, Bottas isn't very far off Rosberg in points scoring but a fair bit away in actual performance. Maybe he can improve next year though - that will be the big test.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Actually slash that old prediction. I expect a 3-way fight next year and as such there are more points to lose if you don't have the edge. I think Bottas will actually score a lesser % of points on Hamilton in 2018 than he will do in 2017. Let's say 77%.

He will be better but Max and Dan will feature heavily alongside Lewis and Seb and Bottas will be 5th or 6th best of the bunch still.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:14 pm 
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lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I actually didn't vote here. But Bottas currently has 81% of Hamilton's points if I round it to the nearest percentage. So it certainly looks like most people will be right by the end of the season with the votes cast at the start. But given how many seem to have been saying that his season has been disappointing overall is a bit much really.

He's scored 45% of the championship points for Mercedes and Hamilton has got just 10% more. From these stats, what Bottas has done is a very solid job for a number 2 driver.

In 2015, Rosberg got 46% of the teams points when rounded to the nearest percentage. I know Bottas has one more race to go. But he isn't far off that at all is he? And as lamo said at the start of this thread, Rosberg had 85% of Hamilton's points.


This was Rosbergs 6th year with Mercedes. And it was Hamilton's 3rd. Rosberg has 2 advantages over Bottas. He was much more used to the team and Mercedes were well ahead of any other team for virtually the whole season. This year is Bottas's first season with the team. And now Hamilton's 5th and Mercedes have been fighting with Ferrari from the start and even Red Bull occasionally now. Many are saying Hamilton has found a new level this year and is better than ever. Considering how much Bottas has done in his first year with Mercedes, I think many have been overly harsh on him. He's lost a bit of form in the 2nd half of the season, but he still does the job well and usually gets solid results.


You are comparing Nico's worst year of his 4 alongside Lewis. It was also a year in which he had worst luck than Lewis (2 break down DNFs to Hamiltons one which happened in a race he was running 5th in anyway - Singapore). This year I would now say that Hamilton has had slightly worst luck that Bottas.

Having said that, Bottas isn't very far off Rosberg in points scoring but a fair bit away in actual performance. Maybe he can improve next year though - that will be the big test.


I am comparing Rosbergs worst year because it is the most fair to compare surely? As it was his 6th with the team and this is Bottas's first and they are doing a very similar job. So on the whole, according to these stats and taking into consideration that the team is not as strong as it was and Bottas is new to the team, he's doing very well indeed and is pretty reasonably matched to Rosberg.Rosberg got much better over time, so why might Bottas not? I don't like seeing all these comments saying Ocon, Ricciardo or Verstappen will be better for the 2019 seat. We have no clue yet if Bottas could put in a totally unexpected performance next year. It is unlikely that he will do quite that well, but I expect him to be a lot better than he currently is. Similar to how Rosberg slowly did improve.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:27 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I actually didn't vote here. But Bottas currently has 81% of Hamilton's points if I round it to the nearest percentage. So it certainly looks like most people will be right by the end of the season with the votes cast at the start. But given how many seem to have been saying that his season has been disappointing overall is a bit much really.

He's scored 45% of the championship points for Mercedes and Hamilton has got just 10% more. From these stats, what Bottas has done is a very solid job for a number 2 driver.

In 2015, Rosberg got 46% of the teams points when rounded to the nearest percentage. I know Bottas has one more race to go. But he isn't far off that at all is he? And as lamo said at the start of this thread, Rosberg had 85% of Hamilton's points.


This was Rosbergs 6th year with Mercedes. And it was Hamilton's 3rd. Rosberg has 2 advantages over Bottas. He was much more used to the team and Mercedes were well ahead of any other team for virtually the whole season. This year is Bottas's first season with the team. And now Hamilton's 5th and Mercedes have been fighting with Ferrari from the start and even Red Bull occasionally now. Many are saying Hamilton has found a new level this year and is better than ever. Considering how much Bottas has done in his first year with Mercedes, I think many have been overly harsh on him. He's lost a bit of form in the 2nd half of the season, but he still does the job well and usually gets solid results.


You are comparing Nico's worst year of his 4 alongside Lewis. It was also a year in which he had worst luck than Lewis (2 break down DNFs to Hamiltons one which happened in a race he was running 5th in anyway - Singapore). This year I would now say that Hamilton has had slightly worst luck that Bottas.

Having said that, Bottas isn't very far off Rosberg in points scoring but a fair bit away in actual performance. Maybe he can improve next year though - that will be the big test.


I am comparing Rosbergs worst year because it is the most fair to compare surely? As it was his 6th with the team and this is Bottas's first and they are doing a very similar job. So on the whole, according to these stats and taking into consideration that the team is not as strong as it was and Bottas is new to the team, he's doing very well indeed and is pretty reasonably matched to Rosberg.Rosberg got much better over time, so why might Bottas not? I don't like seeing all these comments saying Ocon, Ricciardo or Verstappen will be better for the 2019 seat. We have no clue yet if Bottas could put in a totally unexpected performance next year. It is unlikely that he will do quite that well, but I expect him to be a lot better than he currently is. Similar to how Rosberg slowly did improve.



I agree with you that we can't really know if those options will definitely be better than Bottas for 2019 onwards. I do rate Ricciardo and Verstappen higher but Verstappen is about to lose in points twice in a row to Ricciardo and we still need to seem him prove himself over a whole season in comparison to his direct intrateam competition (this could have happened this year but he was mighty unlucky so we'll have to see how that whole shebang goes in 2018). Bottas has time to improve and he may improve drastically or only slightly - we just don't know. Bottas was very tame in his defence at the start of the 2017 Brazilian GP. When the race is going his defence is good and his race craft is clean and fair. Overall I do rate his wheel-to-wheel racing but don't rate his race pace. If he can find that pace, I think he'll be sharp enough to deal with these other top drivers.

However, even if he does find that pace, I think he's dealing with very good talents and so it's hard to expect him to outdo Ricciardo and Verstappen, let alone Hamilton or Vettel. The Merc car is apparently hard to drive and if Merc get it right then Bottas should be able to unlock a lot more of his personal potential next year but in a year where three teams might be close any edge he doesn't have he'll be punished for much more gravely than this year.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I actually didn't vote here. But Bottas currently has 81% of Hamilton's points if I round it to the nearest percentage. So it certainly looks like most people will be right by the end of the season with the votes cast at the start. But given how many seem to have been saying that his season has been disappointing overall is a bit much really.

He's scored 45% of the championship points for Mercedes and Hamilton has got just 10% more. From these stats, what Bottas has done is a very solid job for a number 2 driver.

In 2015, Rosberg got 46% of the teams points when rounded to the nearest percentage. I know Bottas has one more race to go. But he isn't far off that at all is he? And as lamo said at the start of this thread, Rosberg had 85% of Hamilton's points.


This was Rosbergs 6th year with Mercedes. And it was Hamilton's 3rd. Rosberg has 2 advantages over Bottas. He was much more used to the team and Mercedes were well ahead of any other team for virtually the whole season. This year is Bottas's first season with the team. And now Hamilton's 5th and Mercedes have been fighting with Ferrari from the start and even Red Bull occasionally now. Many are saying Hamilton has found a new level this year and is better than ever. Considering how much Bottas has done in his first year with Mercedes, I think many have been overly harsh on him. He's lost a bit of form in the 2nd half of the season, but he still does the job well and usually gets solid results.


You are comparing Nico's worst year of his 4 alongside Lewis. It was also a year in which he had worst luck than Lewis (2 break down DNFs to Hamiltons one which happened in a race he was running 5th in anyway - Singapore). This year I would now say that Hamilton has had slightly worst luck that Bottas.

Having said that, Bottas isn't very far off Rosberg in points scoring but a fair bit away in actual performance. Maybe he can improve next year though - that will be the big test.


I am comparing Rosbergs worst year because it is the most fair to compare surely? As it was his 6th with the team and this is Bottas's first and they are doing a very similar job. So on the whole, according to these stats and taking into consideration that the team is not as strong as it was and Bottas is new to the team, he's doing very well indeed and is pretty reasonably matched to Rosberg.Rosberg got much better over time, so why might Bottas not? I don't like seeing all these comments saying Ocon, Ricciardo or Verstappen will be better for the 2019 seat. We have no clue yet if Bottas could put in a totally unexpected performance next year. It is unlikely that he will do quite that well, but I expect him to be a lot better than he currently is. Similar to how Rosberg slowly did improve.



I agree with you that we can't really know if those options will definitely be better than Bottas for 2019 onwards. I do rate Ricciardo and Verstappen higher but Verstappen is about to lose in points twice in a row to Ricciardo and we still need to seem him prove himself over a whole season in comparison to his direct intrateam competition (this could have happened this year but he was mighty unlucky so we'll have to see how that whole shebang goes in 2018). Bottas has time to improve and he may improve drastically or only slightly - we just don't know. Bottas was very tame in his defence at the start of the 2017 Brazilian GP. When the race is going his defence is good and his race craft is clean and fair. Overall I do rate his wheel-to-wheel racing but don't rate his race pace. If he can find that pace, I think he'll be sharp enough to deal with these other top drivers.

However, even if he does find that pace, I think he's dealing with very good talents and so it's hard to expect him to outdo Ricciardo and Verstappen, let alone Hamilton or Vettel. The Merc car is apparently hard to drive and if Merc get it right then Bottas should be able to unlock a lot more of his personal potential next year but in a year where three teams might be close any edge he doesn't have he'll be punished for much more gravely than this year.


If I'm honest, I think a good start to a season is better than getting better near the end and startign off not so good. Bottas got his 2 wins early on and generally has his better performances at the beginning of the season too. If he's shown he's capable of being good for the team that quickly (which he pretty much did at that stage), then I think the reason why he's not been so good recently is partly because the car doesn't suit his driving style. So if Mercedes get something sorted that he's happy with. There is a big chance next year, that he will be better then this early season's form and improve on that through out the next season. That is what I'm hoping anyway. Mercedes do seem to have said that Hamilton has found a new level this year and Bottas found the car easier to handle earlier on in the season. This is clearly a negative point about Bottas, but I think things will very likely change with a new car next year. He showed plenty of promise at Williams.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:30 pm 
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I see your point but do think Hamilton's race pace wasn't typically so hot over the first half of the season as he too had to adjust to a supposed diva of a car. In other words the form of Bottas and Hamilton wasn't that great (it was good but nothing so noteworthy) to start the year because they both had to deal with a tricky car and over the year Hamilton adapted better and the development suited him more and that coincided also with great raw Hamilton form and a loss of form and confidence for Bottas, making the gap in quality of performance very big as the year has gone on. The problem is that Bottas has often also been worse than Ferraris and Red Bulls so it's not just a case of Hamilton's great form. But yes Mercedes will be aiming to get it nailed on at the beginning of 2018 and have both drivers get off on the best possible foot. Bottas was consistently better than Massa at Williams and should still be improving as a racer and is in a team where he can start to reach his peak. Good luck to the man - I like him a lot along with Ricciardo off the track.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:35 pm 
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The best thing about Bottas is that he consistently sees the checkered flag. He has frequently been well off of Hamilton's pace in the second half of the season but, even in those races, he still scores plenty of points and often even sees the podium. Bottas is truly the ideal #2 driver.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:41 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I actually didn't vote here. But Bottas currently has 81% of Hamilton's points if I round it to the nearest percentage. So it certainly looks like most people will be right by the end of the season with the votes cast at the start. But given how many seem to have been saying that his season has been disappointing overall is a bit much really.

He's scored 45% of the championship points for Mercedes and Hamilton has got just 10% more. From these stats, what Bottas has done is a very solid job for a number 2 driver.

In 2015, Rosberg got 46% of the teams points when rounded to the nearest percentage. I know Bottas has one more race to go. But he isn't far off that at all is he? And as lamo said at the start of this thread, Rosberg had 85% of Hamilton's points.


This was Rosbergs 6th year with Mercedes. And it was Hamilton's 3rd. Rosberg has 2 advantages over Bottas. He was much more used to the team and Mercedes were well ahead of any other team for virtually the whole season. This year is Bottas's first season with the team. And now Hamilton's 5th and Mercedes have been fighting with Ferrari from the start and even Red Bull occasionally now. Many are saying Hamilton has found a new level this year and is better than ever. Considering how much Bottas has done in his first year with Mercedes, I think many have been overly harsh on him. He's lost a bit of form in the 2nd half of the season, but he still does the job well and usually gets solid results.


You are comparing Nico's worst year of his 4 alongside Lewis. It was also a year in which he had worst luck than Lewis (2 break down DNFs to Hamiltons one which happened in a race he was running 5th in anyway - Singapore). This year I would now say that Hamilton has had slightly worst luck that Bottas.

Having said that, Bottas isn't very far off Rosberg in points scoring but a fair bit away in actual performance. Maybe he can improve next year though - that will be the big test.


I am comparing Rosbergs worst year because it is the most fair to compare surely? As it was his 6th with the team and this is Bottas's first and they are doing a very similar job. So on the whole, according to these stats and taking into consideration that the team is not as strong as it was and Bottas is new to the team, he's doing very well indeed and is pretty reasonably matched to Rosberg.Rosberg got much better over time, so why might Bottas not? I don't like seeing all these comments saying Ocon, Ricciardo or Verstappen will be better for the 2019 seat. We have no clue yet if Bottas could put in a totally unexpected performance next year. It is unlikely that he will do quite that well, but I expect him to be a lot better than he currently is. Similar to how Rosberg slowly did improve.


Rosberg didn't get better over time, his best year against Hamilton was 2013, his worst year (performance wise) was 2016 or arguably 2015 - his last 2 years either way. That actual lowest period was the first half of 2015 and his overall best period was the 2nd half of 2015.

Hamilton also out scored Bottas by +22 in the first half of the year. The 2nd half reads +43 so he has got worse if anything. Next year is a new slate so we will see. Verstappen last year for example began to match Ricciardo by the last third of the year after acclimatising.

Rosberg also would have won the race yesterday, he knew how to be defensive off the line.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I would put Bottas roughly at the same level as Rosberg and Button so went for 75-89%.

It seems I was reasonably close? :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Rosberg was better than Bottas. In speed they are probably close, but Rosberg was a better competitor, more feisty, more willing to play the mind games. Bottas is just too nice of a guy. He just does not worry Lewis at all. I will not be surprised if the gap between them actually increases next year. I personally thought that yesterday was a test for him. Starting on pole, with Vettel behind, and with his admitted aspirations of finsihing 2nd in the WDC, I thought he needed to show that he could win that race. He didn't. His future in the sport might be in jeopardy at this time next year I'm afraid.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:12 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Rosberg was better than Bottas. In speed they are probably close, but Rosberg was a better competitor, more feisty, more willing to play the mind games. Bottas is just too nice of a guy. He just does not worry Lewis at all. I will not be surprised if the gap between them actually increases next year. I personally thought that yesterday was a test for him. Starting on pole, with Vettel behind, and with his admitted aspirations of finsihing 2nd in the WDC, I thought he needed to show that he could win that race. He didn't. His future in the sport might be in jeopardy at this time next year I'm afraid.

Two teammates fighting one another being prepared to use dirty tricks could end up with the team winning nothing, this year Mercedes won everything, job done.

Whilst Ferrari employ a #1 driver policy then Mercedes would be foolish to do different.

We've seen both Ferrari and Red Bull in the past happy to employ drivers that score 50% of their teammates points yet Bottas is not good enough despite scoring a far higher percentage of points, anything higher than that then you are looking at Hamilton being teamed with a tier 1 driver, Hamilton seems to be the driver that needs to be tested perhaps?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:15 pm 
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another quote from jacques villeneuve on the front page. what is wrong with this guy and does he have a job, or does he post his crap on twitter or something. just seems to be a bigger and bigger donkey opening as time goes on


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:20 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
another quote from jacques villeneuve on the front page. what is wrong with this guy and does he have a job, or does he post his crap on twitter or something. just seems to be a bigger and bigger donkey opening as time goes on

I ignore everything he says he just likes to be controversial.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:44 pm 
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" donkey opening " lol at the editing !


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:58 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Rosberg was better than Bottas. In speed they are probably close, but Rosberg was a better competitor, more feisty, more willing to play the mind games. Bottas is just too nice of a guy. He just does not worry Lewis at all. I will not be surprised if the gap between them actually increases next year. I personally thought that yesterday was a test for him. Starting on pole, with Vettel behind, and with his admitted aspirations of finsihing 2nd in the WDC, I thought he needed to show that he could win that race. He didn't. His future in the sport might be in jeopardy at this time next year I'm afraid.

If he does a similar job to this year next year, but Mercedes don't keep him, I think it is quite possible Ferrari will grab him as I think he has easily been better than Kimi on the whole and that may well be just the sort of driver Ferrari want against Vettel. If he improves quite a bit next season, there could be quite a good chance they may extend his contract.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:12 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
If he does a similar job to this year next year, but Mercedes don't keep him, I think it is quite possible Ferrari will grab him as I think he has easily been better than Kimi on the whole and that may well be just the sort of driver Ferrari want against Vettel. If he improves quite a bit next season, there could be quite a good chance they may extend his contract.

Vettel would slaughter him just like Hamilton has. Ferrari need a properly quick second driver, not someone who's maybe a tenth or two quicker than an old Kimi.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
If he does a similar job to this year next year, but Mercedes don't keep him, I think it is quite possible Ferrari will grab him as I think he has easily been better than Kimi on the whole and that may well be just the sort of driver Ferrari want against Vettel. If he improves quite a bit next season, there could be quite a good chance they may extend his contract.

Vettel would slaughter him just like Hamilton has. Ferrari need a properly quick second driver, not someone who's maybe a tenth or two quicker than an old Kimi.


Based on Kimi's performance in 2014, 2015 and early this year, why did they choose to to extend him to the end of 2018? Maybe they want a driver like that. He's clearly a bit worse than Bottas on the whole. And Bottas could very well improve while Kimi almost certainly has to be at or past his limit. I still assume that they could well get hold of Bottas instead of risking trying someone else who hasn't yet been in a top team. A top team is experience for Bottas and if he is considered to be a number 2 driver, he's not doing badly at all in terms of getting those points. He may be just what Ferrari want. That is if he doesn't get any worse and Mercedes don't keep him. Bottas has certainly been pretty reliable and as I said, he's got 45% of the championchip points them this year.

And when you say Vettel would sloughter him, how can you be sure? We don't know if Bottas may improve yet... And Bottas looked better than Vettel in 2014 and got more points and I'm not convinced the Williams was better than the Red Bull. It was only better at fast circuits. The chassis was rubbish at a lot of them and he still finished ahead of Vettel in the standings. I'm not saying it is likely that Bottas wouldn't get heavily beaten by Vettel, but I just don't like saying things will or won't happen. We don't know if Bottas will improve yet or if Vettel could have a worse year.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
If he does a similar job to this year next year, but Mercedes don't keep him, I think it is quite possible Ferrari will grab him as I think he has easily been better than Kimi on the whole and that may well be just the sort of driver Ferrari want against Vettel. If he improves quite a bit next season, there could be quite a good chance they may extend his contract.

Vettel would slaughter him just like Hamilton has. Ferrari need a properly quick second driver, not someone who's maybe a tenth or two quicker than an old Kimi.


Based on Kimi's performance in 2014, 2015 and early this year, why did they choose to to extend him to the end of 2018? Maybe they want a driver like that. He's clearly a bit worse than Bottas on the whole. And Bottas could very well improve while Kimi almost certainly has to be at or past his limit. I still assume that they could well get hold of Bottas instead of risking trying someone else who hasn't yet been in a top team. A top team is experience for Bottas and if he is considered to be a number 2 driver, he's not doing badly at all in terms of getting those points. He may be just what Ferrari want. That is if he doesn't get any worse and Mercedes don't keep him. Bottas has certainly been pretty reliable and as I said, he's got 45% of the championchip points them this year.

And when you say Vettel would sloughter him, how can you be sure? We don't know if Bottas may improve yet... And Bottas looked better than Vettel in 2014 and got more points and I'm not convinced the Williams was better than the Red Bull. It was only better at fast circuits. The chassis was rubbish at a lot of them and he still finished ahead of Vettel in the standings. I'm not saying it is likely that Bottas wouldn't get heavily beaten by Vettel, but I just don't like saying things will or won't happen. We don't know if Bottas will improve yet or if Vettel could have a worse year.

I don't think that Bottas is as good as Vettel but I do think that Ferrari might want to sign him. Ferrari seem to want someone who compares to Vettel exactly like Bottas has compared to Hamilton. Not really fast enough to actually take points off of him but consistently puts points on the board 1-2 positions behind him. I think they would be perfectly happy with Kimi if he just didn't have so many DNFs.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I think they would be perfectly happy with Kimi if he just didn't have so many DNFs.

Most of those DNFs haven't been Kimi's fault though.

Bottas has been a lot luckier than Kimi this season. No race exemplifies this better than Baku: Bottas takes out Kimi at the start, then finishes 2nd while Kimi DNFs.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Rosberg was better than Bottas. In speed they are probably close, but Rosberg was a better competitor, more feisty, more willing to play the mind games. Bottas is just too nice of a guy. He just does not worry Lewis at all. I will not be surprised if the gap between them actually increases next year. I personally thought that yesterday was a test for him. Starting on pole, with Vettel behind, and with his admitted aspirations of finsihing 2nd in the WDC, I thought he needed to show that he could win that race. He didn't. His future in the sport might be in jeopardy at this time next year I'm afraid.

Two teammates fighting one another being prepared to use dirty tricks could end up with the team winning nothing, this year Mercedes won everything, job done.

Whilst Ferrari employ a #1 driver policy then Mercedes would be foolish to do different.

We've seen both Ferrari and Red Bull in the past happy to employ drivers that score 50% of their teammates points yet Bottas is not good enough despite scoring a far higher percentage of points, anything higher than that then you are looking at Hamilton being teamed with a tier 1 driver, Hamilton seems to be the driver that needs to be tested perhaps?


I was not comparing Bottas and Rosberg as Hamilton's teammates, but rather on their abilities alone. Who do I think is the better teammate for Lewis? Then as a Lewis fan it is Bottas for sure. But Mercedes probably doesn't feel that way. The way they operate they want to have two very high performing guys on the team. If Bottas continues to be regularly almost half a second off the pace and be nowhere in race pace relative to Lewis, they will make a change. That's pretty much a guarantee.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:02 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Rosberg was better than Bottas. In speed they are probably close, but Rosberg was a better competitor, more feisty, more willing to play the mind games. Bottas is just too nice of a guy. He just does not worry Lewis at all. I will not be surprised if the gap between them actually increases next year. I personally thought that yesterday was a test for him. Starting on pole, with Vettel behind, and with his admitted aspirations of finsihing 2nd in the WDC, I thought he needed to show that he could win that race. He didn't. His future in the sport might be in jeopardy at this time next year I'm afraid.

Two teammates fighting one another being prepared to use dirty tricks could end up with the team winning nothing, this year Mercedes won everything, job done.

Whilst Ferrari employ a #1 driver policy then Mercedes would be foolish to do different.

We've seen both Ferrari and Red Bull in the past happy to employ drivers that score 50% of their teammates points yet Bottas is not good enough despite scoring a far higher percentage of points, anything higher than that then you are looking at Hamilton being teamed with a tier 1 driver, Hamilton seems to be the driver that needs to be tested perhaps?


I was not comparing Bottas and Rosberg as Hamilton's teammates, but rather on their abilities alone. Who do I think is the better teammate for Lewis? Then as a Lewis fan it is Bottas for sure. But Mercedes probably doesn't feel that way. The way they operate they want to have two very high performing guys on the team. If Bottas continues to be regularly almost half a second off the pace and be nowhere in race pace relative to Lewis, they will make a change. That's pretty much a guarantee.

What Mercedes want also is harmony within the team, Rosberg was actually on his way out before Barcelona last year, he was only offered a 1 year contract but then Hamilton threatened to quit the team after they didn't blame Rosberg for the crash but looked to put some blame on Hamilton, so they panicked and gave Rosberg a 2 year contract.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:20 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think they would be perfectly happy with Kimi if he just didn't have so many DNFs.

Most of those DNFs haven't been Kimi's fault though.

Bottas has been a lot luckier than Kimi this season. No race exemplifies this better than Baku: Bottas takes out Kimi at the start, then finishes 2nd while Kimi DNFs.

Other than both were deemed to be equally at fault for the incident and Bottas suffered at the time much more than Kimi. And Kimi's retirement was completely unrelated. I agree that Kimi has been very unlucky this season, but I still think it obvious Bottas will be a better number 2 driver than him.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:30 pm 
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I found it slightly funny how Bottas still brought up Hamilton on the podium in the way he did, mentioning Ham's comeback drive. There is a genuine camaraderie between the two which has been apparent all season. It's something that can help Mercedes going forward when things get tight, as long as Bottas also continues to improve. I think we'll really see where Bottas is at in 2018 and I do think he can put himself in a position for a top drive if Mercedes decide to go with Ricciardo... probably in place of Kimi - yeah. I wonder if Ferrari might get brave though and put Leclerc in their car much sooner than anyone would anticipate.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Rosberg was better than Bottas. In speed they are probably close, but Rosberg was a better competitor, more feisty, more willing to play the mind games. Bottas is just too nice of a guy. He just does not worry Lewis at all. I will not be surprised if the gap between them actually increases next year. I personally thought that yesterday was a test for him. Starting on pole, with Vettel behind, and with his admitted aspirations of finsihing 2nd in the WDC, I thought he needed to show that he could win that race. He didn't. His future in the sport might be in jeopardy at this time next year I'm afraid.

Two teammates fighting one another being prepared to use dirty tricks could end up with the team winning nothing, this year Mercedes won everything, job done.

Whilst Ferrari employ a #1 driver policy then Mercedes would be foolish to do different.

We've seen both Ferrari and Red Bull in the past happy to employ drivers that score 50% of their teammates points yet Bottas is not good enough despite scoring a far higher percentage of points, anything higher than that then you are looking at Hamilton being teamed with a tier 1 driver, Hamilton seems to be the driver that needs to be tested perhaps?


I was not comparing Bottas and Rosberg as Hamilton's teammates, but rather on their abilities alone. Who do I think is the better teammate for Lewis? Then as a Lewis fan it is Bottas for sure. But Mercedes probably doesn't feel that way. The way they operate they want to have two very high performing guys on the team. If Bottas continues to be regularly almost half a second off the pace and be nowhere in race pace relative to Lewis, they will make a change. That's pretty much a guarantee.

What Mercedes want also is harmony within the team, Rosberg was actually on his way out before Barcelona last year, he was only offered a 1 year contract but then Hamilton threatened to quit the team after they didn't blame Rosberg for the crash but looked to put some blame on Hamilton, so they panicked and gave Rosberg a 2 year contract.



I think they are enjoying the harmony, but if they ever feel like they are losing out in the constructors they will forget about harmony. Performance is the priority for them I'm sure.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:25 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel would slaughter him just like Hamilton has. Ferrari need a properly quick second driver, not someone who's maybe a tenth or two quicker than an old Kimi.

Based on Kimi's performance in 2014, 2015 and early this year, why did they choose to to extend him to the end of 2018? Maybe they want a driver like that. He's clearly a bit worse than Bottas on the whole. And Bottas could very well improve while Kimi almost certainly has to be at or past his limit. I still assume that they could well get hold of Bottas instead of risking trying someone else who hasn't yet been in a top team. A top team is experience for Bottas and if he is considered to be a number 2 driver, he's not doing badly at all in terms of getting those points. He may be just what Ferrari want. That is if he doesn't get any worse and Mercedes don't keep him. Bottas has certainly been pretty reliable and as I said, he's got 45% of the championchip points them this year.

And when you say Vettel would sloughter him, how can you be sure? We don't know if Bottas may improve yet... And Bottas looked better than Vettel in 2014 and got more points and I'm not convinced the Williams was better than the Red Bull. It was only better at fast circuits. The chassis was rubbish at a lot of them and he still finished ahead of Vettel in the standings. I'm not saying it is likely that Bottas wouldn't get heavily beaten by Vettel, but I just don't like saying things will or won't happen. We don't know if Bottas will improve yet or if Vettel could have a worse year.

It's my opinion, clearly. I don't know that Vettel would beat him, any more than I know that Vettel would beat Ericsson. But I do very much believe he would, and I think all the data we have points to it as well. Mercedes is probably one of the foremost teams where a second driver has a chance to match the leader, and Bottas is unable to do so. I don't rate Vettel as quite as quick as Hamilton, but I do rate him a lot closer than Bottas.

As for 2014, I don't agree. There is a lot of reason to think (in retrospect) that the Williams was the clear second-best car of 2014, and Mercedes have even claimed it was superior to theirs at several tracks. The bad chassis only came in later, in 2015; for 2014, the car was simply very good. With Bottas having been exposed as a half second slower than Lewis, and Massa always having been known to be about that much slower, I think in retrospect there were wins for the taking in that car, and Bottas was simply too slow to take them.

Additionally to all of that, Vettel was poor in 2014.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:02 am 
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I like Valtteri and think he is a decent driver, but I don't know why Mercedes didn't use this year to pound up a hotshot rookie for 2018. They need a driver who can learn from Lewis and be ready to help out when Lewis's numbers begin to taper off.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:31 am 
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Invade wrote:
I found it slightly funny how Bottas still brought up Hamilton on the podium in the way he did, mentioning Ham's comeback drive. There is a genuine camaraderie between the two which has been apparent all season. It's something that can help Mercedes going forward when things get tight, as long as Bottas also continues to improve. I think we'll really see where Bottas is at in 2018 and I do think he can put himself in a position for a top drive if Mercedes decide to go with Ricciardo... probably in place of Kimi - yeah. I wonder if Ferrari might get brave though and put Leclerc in their car much sooner than anyone would anticipate.


I think Bottas is fine. He joined another team and isn't used to fighting for wins. It's a different ball game when the gamble is a few measly points and if they don't pan out - it tends to matter only for the team finishing 1 place better for some £££.

Now he is in a team where they want to win both championships. Unlike Lewis and Ferrari - he's not used to it. Once people started to doubt Bottas he came out and actually won a few races which is better than what Kimi has managed this season.

While Bottas has been helping to keep Vettel at bay for a few moments this season (including winning). Ferrari have a 2nd driver who is barely touching Vettel. Barely in the way and barely taking points off Lewis.

I may not be a Vettel fan but I can say - he's been dominating Kimi and I wouldn't place a bet on Kimi winning 1 race next year. Out of those 4 drivers Lewis/Vettel are in a class of their own closely followed by Bottas but with a gap to Kimi. Ferrari will place it safe with Kimi and it wouldn't surprise me if Vettel has a say on it. Considering how close both Ferrari drivers signed their contracts.

I will say this though. I'm disgusted how Bottas has been constantly questioned and at times ridiculed yet Kimi because he's an ex champion is not being questioned enough. He should be doing better - being a former champion and more experienced. The two top teams have been so close to each other but again Kimi is not winning races. Regardless of mistakes/reliability or even a team decision - Vettel has had chances taken away through reliability and his own mistakes. Kimi is in that team for one reason only. We shouldn't be questioning Bottas 1st - we should be questioning Kimi.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
I will say this though. I'm disgusted how Bottas has been constantly questioned and at times ridiculed yet Kimi because he's an ex champion is not being questioned enough. He should be doing better - being a former champion and more experienced. The two top teams have been so close to each other but again Kimi is not winning races. Regardless of mistakes/reliability or even a team decision - Vettel has had chances taken away through reliability and his own mistakes. Kimi is in that team for one reason only. We shouldn't be questioning Bottas 1st - we should be questioning Kimi.

I think you're wrong about this. Nobody questions Kimi because we already know he's past it. There's no question. I think you'd be hard put to find anyone who thinks Kimi is doing a good enough job, it's just so accepted at this point that nobody talks about it.

Bottas, however, had expectations on him, and for many people he hasn't been living up to them lately. That's the difference.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:47 am 
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Funny thing is if Bottas was driving for Merc in 2016 he would have finished or likely won ahead of Hamilton in China, Russia, Baku, Belgium, Singapore and Malaysia. Then if Hamilton got bad starts in Aus, Bahrain, Monza and Japan then again he picks up more points in a period of domination from Mercedes and the leading car wins.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:26 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Funny thing is if Bottas was driving for Merc in 2016 he would have finished or likely won ahead of Hamilton in China, Russia, Baku, Belgium, Singapore and Malaysia. Then if Hamilton got bad starts in Aus, Bahrain, Monza and Japan then again he picks up more points in a period of domination from Mercedes and the leading car wins.


Bottas performance level this year likely would have been enough to win the 2016 WDC given Hamilton’s reliability and starts. He would at very minimum win 7 races and take the WDC title fight to the final round.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:37 am 
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lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Funny thing is if Bottas was driving for Merc in 2016 he would have finished or likely won ahead of Hamilton in China, Russia, Baku, Belgium, Singapore and Malaysia. Then if Hamilton got bad starts in Aus, Bahrain, Monza and Japan then again he picks up more points in a period of domination from Mercedes and the leading car wins.


Bottas performance level this year likely would have been enough to win the 2016 WDC given Hamilton’s reliability and starts. He would at very minimum win 7 races and take the WDC title fight to the final round.


That's what I think, that's why I feel it's a little harsh to make comparisons with Rosberg in totally different circumstances but Bottas pace on one tyre compound has been pretty poor. Rosberg beats Bottas for race pace but between 2014-16 this didn't matter much, Hamilton was generally always quicker on a Sunday but first corner wins the race.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
I like Valtteri and think he is a decent driver, but I don't know why Mercedes didn't use this year to pound up a hotshot rookie for 2018. They need a driver who can learn from Lewis and be ready to help out when Lewis's numbers begin to taper off.

Which hotshot rookie would that be?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:54 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Funny thing is if Bottas was driving for Merc in 2016 he would have finished or likely won ahead of Hamilton in China, Russia, Baku, Belgium, Singapore and Malaysia. Then if Hamilton got bad starts in Aus, Bahrain, Monza and Japan then again he picks up more points in a period of domination from Mercedes and the leading car wins.

Yep Bottas has not had the same luxury as the driver he replaced.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I like Valtteri and think he is a decent driver, but I don't know why Mercedes didn't use this year to pound up a hotshot rookie for 2018. They need a driver who can learn from Lewis and be ready to help out when Lewis's numbers begin to taper off.

Which hotshot rookie would that be?


Ocon.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:04 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I like Valtteri and think he is a decent driver, but I don't know why Mercedes didn't use this year to pound up a hotshot rookie for 2018. They need a driver who can learn from Lewis and be ready to help out when Lewis's numbers begin to taper off.

Which hotshot rookie would that be?


Ocon.

Not ready, give him 1 more year to see if he can beat Perez.

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