Not even with hindsight is that true. McLaren had no intention of being a customer in an engine formula as it would have meant accepting playing second fiddle to Mercedes in an engine dominant formula and being down on power and efficiency through using the wrong fuels and lubricants because they wouldn't drop Esso/Mobil and always behind the curve on software.
The only difference if they'd have been staying with Mercedes from 2014 would be they wouldn't have got shut out from the Mercedes engineers and the telemetry as they were during that year. They got no help at all that year because they were leaving, not even with throttle maps.
And Williams didn't outdevelop them, they were already quicker from the off in the races but the Williams was poorer in the wet and the first two qualies were wet so they had to come through the field. Massa was taken out at the first corner in Oz and Bottas who was lapping quicker than the McLaren pair hit the wall and gave himself a puncture.
Williams were quicker all year except when it rained really. Their car was a very good low drag car while McLaren had those daft suspension blockers which gave them more downforce but had a higher drag penalty. And yes they were down on power too because they were using Esso and Williams used Petronas like Mercedes had wanted McLaren to.
People can admit when McLaren do a bad job(I hope anyway). 2013 for example and the decision to go for revolution over evolution of the 2012 car. The suspension blockers in 2014 chasing peak downforce was also a mistake. Their strategies have been the source of ridicule for years now with good reason. Their pit stops were particularly woeful in 2015 and the car wasn't very good either in the opening rounds that year, JB called it scary after the Spanish GP.
All bad and all solely on McLaren's head. The problem only comes when you're blaming them for things that either aren't true or don't make sense and people are going to point that out I'm afraid.
All i know is that Williams and Mclaren were only a tenth apart in qualifying at the beginning of that year. By abu dhabi the gap was one second. But you want to say that williams didnt outdevelop them.
All im saying is that mclaren has been underperforming for a long time now and i keep hearing its all Honda's fault when its clearly not true. Mclarens claim that they were the 3rd best car is completely ludicrous. Toro rosso and FI had similar level chassis, arguably better too.
Different tracks,different strengths and different gaps. It wasn't a matter of being out developed, the Williams were always quicker in the dry, they were a much better package and had a better car throughout the year. If you want to limit that to just being better development then fair enough but I very much disagree.
No chance FI and STR had better cars to go along with their PU advantage, particularly FI who's power advantage was huge. McLaren would have got blown away by them all year at every track instead of McLaren beating them comfortably at Hungary and Singapore when the emphasis on power was cut. If STR and FI had better cars too it would have been the opposite there, they would have been further away. (At Japan they certainly had better cars though of course).
As you know I thought they were 4th personally behind Ferrari but it's not just McLaren claiming they were 3rd so I don't know why you insist on pretending it is, James Allen wrote that rival engineers felt the McLaren was 3rd for example. All the teams have access to GPS traces, they will know better than me or you.
It got praise all year from journo's,trackside observers,the paddock and more importantly the drivers with 1 and a half notable exceptions, Japan and JB's car in Brazil when they messed up his set up.
The drivers are arguably the most compelling piece of evidence amongst it all. They are without doubt two of the most critical drivers on the grid when it comes to their cars, they've never pulled punches before with McLaren- Honda (2015) and even in race winning equipment throughout their careers, yet they both praised it outside of those examples.
Where's your evidence to the contrary about the car being poor and FI and STR having better chassis's?.
I am done going in circles with you man. Look; you see things your way and i see them another. To you the power unit is all that counts and you believe the mclaren chassis is a gem based on what experts are saying. You basically only hear what you want to hear.
Pot meet kettle and I'd hardly call 4th best a gem. I listen to everyone's opinion and of course that includes experts(Shock horror I value expert opinion) but most importantly Honda's, and I form my opinion based on that.
Your disdain for expert opinion is hilarious by the way but explains a lot. Much better to just guess and spout made up BS I take it?. You must have loved Post-truth being the word of the year, very apt.
For example when alonso is screaming at his engineer in the radio and telling him to do his job it does not ring a bell with you.
That rings several bells. He's moaned about getting pitted into traffic in his first stops at several GP's and of course unfortunately the fuel saving and lack of grunt on the straights. But he moaned about the car in Japan and Monaco too.
When button is looking like narain kartekian in brazil you think its simple setup issues.
Of course. But that's because that's what JB blamed and the fact Alonso was able to go 2.5s a lap quicker would point to it being a set up issue specific to JB's car rather than a McLaren issue in general unless Alonso sneakily painted a different teams car and was driving that instead.
When mclaren has their worst performance at their home track which rewards a good car you shrug it off.
By shrug it off you mean criticise them for it and agree it was the car that was the problem in Suzuka. Also shared a link as to what the specific problem was too and labelled it a flaw in that thread. Because that's what I did.
What you did was say you'd judge the car on whether it could put the midfield in it's rear view mirror in Hungary and when it did it comfortably you then went in the huff and buried your head in the sand instead of admit you were wrong about the car.
You discount everything that might bring some doubt into your opinion.
No that's your job. Unfortunately you haven't shown me anything for me to discount in return because whenever you're asked what's making you think that you just reply "My opinion".
Even I've given more specific reasons during our debate across 4 threads to criticise McLaren than you have. I've criticised their rake,rear suspension and constant gambling on wet weather for example. You've literally given nothing but nonsense claims stated as fact like above in your reply to mikeyg where now apparently Renault were further away from another year 1 ICE than Honda has been to Year 3 ICE's running TJI this year.
Any reason for such a claim this time?.
I get you man. You are a mclaren fanboy. I just disagree with you. Strongly might I add.
Not a McLaren fan as I've told you several times. Just following Honda's issues since it's return closely. If I was a McLaren fan I would say, I've got nothing to hide and haven't made any ridiculous claims like they've got the best car or anything like that.
I just pray that honda will have a second team in f1 at some point then we can finally put this circle jerk show to bed once and for all. And I have a pretty good idea how it would turn out.
What would someone running Honda's 2018 or later version of their PU tell us about the MP4-31 or what powered it?. Makes no sense.
I'm not convinced you have a pretty good idea about any of this based on the above as you don't seem to even know what we're discussing in the first place.
I'll judge the 2017 car and PU on what I see for myself and what I read from those pesky experts and form an opinion of it then and only then.