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 Post subject: Alonso the points hoover
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Someone on this forum described Alonso as a points hoover a few months ago and I thought it was an apt description. Whilst taking part in another discussion today I noticed something looking over Alonso's career -

2003 - 6th in the Championship with the 4th best car
2004 - 4th in the Championship with the 3rd best car
2005 - WDC without the fastest car although best is probably debatable
2006 - WDC possibly 2nd best car. Again debatable
2008 - 5th in the championship in the 4th best car
2009 - 9th in the championship in the 8th best car
2010 - 2nd in the championship in the 2nd best car
2011 - 4th in the championship in the 3rd best car
2012 - 2nd in the championship in the 4th best car
2013 - 2nd in the championship in the 2nd/3rd or 4th best car. Quite hard to tell over the course of that season.
2014 - 6th in the championship in the 4th/5th best car
2016 - 10th in the championship in the 7th best car

Has any other driver in the history of the sport got such a good record with finishing higher up in the championship than his cars natural position?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:00 pm 
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I've personally never seen someone that consistent on the grid at hoovering up points but one thing that slants it is that it's not normal for someone that good to consistently find themselves with cars outside the best on the grid for as long as Alonso seemingly has so naturally you're going to see him "outperform" the machinery more often than someone in the best car finishing 1st or 2nd if you see what I mean.

There's more scope for him to impress.(But he still has to do it of course)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:17 pm 
I have been watching F1 for too many years to want to admit to myself, never mind here. but one advantage is that I have seen lots of drivers....and Alonso is one of the finest bar none.

He is a street fighter when in the car - regardless of the cars abilities, he will just haul it around. He may be last, but if he is, you know that the car probably shouldn't even have qualified. He is one of the few drivers whose ability to win is not labeled as the cars success - it is his through and through.

An amazing talent!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Someone on this forum described Alonso as a points hoover a few months ago and I thought it was an apt description. Whilst taking part in another discussion today I noticed something looking over Alonso's career -

2003 - 6th in the Championship with the 4th best car
2004 - 4th in the Championship with the 3rd best car
2005 - WDC without the fastest car although best is probably debatable
2006 - WDC possibly 2nd best car. Again debatable

2008 - 5th in the championship in the 4th best car
2009 - 9th in the championship in the 8th best car
2010 - 2nd in the championship in the 2nd best car
2011 - 4th in the championship in the 3rd best car
2012 - 2nd in the championship in the 4th best car
2013 - 2nd in the championship in the 2nd/3rd or 4th best car. Quite hard to tell over the course of that season.
2014 - 6th in the championship in the 4th/5th best car
2016 - 10th in the championship in the 7th best car

Has any other driver in the history of the sport got such a good record with finishing higher up in the championship than his cars natural position?


Renault F1 team won the WCC in 2005 and in 2006.


Back to the "points hoover" thing, I would say it is probably Alonso speciality, but it has been a little bit inflated by his years driving under Briatore wings and at Ferrari with their drivers policy(How is the #2 driver supposed to contribute to the team points when he is handicaped via strategy or team operations to make the #1 win the WDC?).

In my opinion the talent to amass point is totally different to the talent you need to hit the highest peaks or make the unthikable happen in a race. He rarely explores or plays with the limits, but at the same time that is the reason why he is so consistent. I have always considered Alonso a faster version of Button but with a bigger political talent(Ricciardo is made from the same mold minus the political talent).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Renault F1 team won the WCC in 2005 and in 2006.

Thanks to his points.
2005 was slower than McLaren but more reliable, and overall not better I'd say.
2006 was better in the first half and Ferrari was better in the 2nd half, overall both matched if not the Ferrari a bit better.

Massa and Montoya did better than Fisichella both years.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:25 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Renault F1 team won the WCC in 2005 and in 2006.

Thanks to his points.
2005 was slower than McLaren but more reliable, and overall not better I'd say.
2006 was better in the first half and Ferrari was better in the 2nd half, overall both matched if not the Ferrari a bit better.

Massa and Montoya did better than Fisichella both years.



WDCs are won with the best cars not the fastest cars. and in those 2 years, the Renault was on average the best car(+team).
How will you rate the 2012 McLaren car? Do you think Alonso would have a shot at the WDC if he was driving the McLaren that year?

The best car to me is team operations+strategy+reliability+speed. Speed alone is not enough.

Fisichella.. You mean the guy who won the 2005 first race and then was screwed up multiple times by his own team? His main goal(whenever possible) in 2006 was to protect Alonso from Schumacher(China and Brazil are some examples). Never seen a more dedicated #2 driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
WDCs are won with the best cars not the fastest cars. and in those 2 years, the Renault was on average the best car(+team).
How will you rate the 2012 McLaren car? Do you think Alonso would have a shot at the WDC if he was driving the McLaren that year?

The best car to me is team operations+strategy+reliability+speed. Speed alone is not enough.

Fisichella.. You mean the guy who won the 2005 first race and then was screwed up multiple times by his own team? His main goal(whenever possible) in 2006 was to protect Alonso from Schumacher(China and Brazil are some examples). Never seen a more dedicated #2 driver.

Sure, he was screwed up even though almost all the time was slower than Alonso, that makes perfect sense...

Kimi arguably lost himself half of the championship by his own mistakes and not having enough consistency, but the 2005 mclaren was perfectly capable of winning both championships.
Same for Ferrari in 2006... Michael made some unnecessary mistakes, and Fisichella and Massa were both team mates before and Fisichella clearly beat Felipe, and Felipe beat Fisi that year, that proves the Ferrari was... quite good to say the least.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Very telling stats Mikey! No question Alonso is one of the greatest.

If he'd had the luck to have been in the top cars 2008-2016, his win tally could have been up with any of the other greats who had top cars for longer. Moss, Surtees and Alonso are in the same situation: lower-rated by many because of their relatively low win scores.

Alonso's fighting so hard and well in slower cars has been similarly done by Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Surtees, Clark through to Prost Senna and Schumacher. All greats.

By slow cars here can mean being only 0.1%-0.3% slower than the fastest car, but the difference in wins can be huge.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Alonso though is different in that he won mightily early on in his early career and as seasons progressed, his wins waned off. Regardless of the reasons, wins for Alonso became fewer and farther in between. Moss is more similar to Alonso in that he had supreme ability and both entered Grand Prix racing at a relatively similar age and both had/have supreme ability. The difference between them is that Moss raced all year every year and had many, many, many more wins that were not part of the F1 championship so his win record is truly not reflective of his utter dominance.

Surtees started racing in F1 in his mid to late 20's (want to say 27-ish?) transitioning over from dominating on 2 wheels and was sort of dipping his feet in the waters of F1 before deciding to dedicate himself to the sport 100%, but once he did he was astonishingly great. Almost as great as he was on 2 wheels, and he hung up his gloves while still being one of the very best. Moss on the other hand seemed to grow tired of it and it began to show in his last few seasons and he seemed to no longer be as committed to winning as he once was. Alonso is more like Surtees in that he's always in a fight to finish as high as his equipment will allow and always seems to edge out teammates with great consistency.

Much of his inability to rack p more wins is solely on him and the decision to take chances without any assurances and he's fallen into the percentages of drivers who've found themselves in lesser equipment. Given that there is usually just 2, sometimes 3 cars that can fight for wins each season, it means the chances of finding yourself in one of the lesser ones is considerable. But that's what happens when you play the percentages. Hopefully Honda's retooling of the entire Power Unit this year unlocks a good bit of additional HP and that all the supplemental systems follow suit so McLaren give their drivers a much better car to contend with. The chassis was pretty decent last year and at times looked properly fast, but in many key areas the PU just lacked a bit of umph to propel the cars as well as others in tighter, slower and even top speed areas.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:

Renault F1 team won the WCC in 2005 and in 2006.


You do realise how the WCC is calculated?

What would be more telling is to see where JPM/Massa finished compared to Fisi.


Quote:
Back to the "points hoover" thing, I would say it is probably Alonso speciality, but it has been a little bit inflated by his years driving under Briatore wings and at Ferrari with their drivers policy(How is the #2 driver supposed to contribute to the team points when he is handicaped via strategy or team operations to make the #1 win the WDC?).


This only happened when the 2nd driver was out of the running for the WDC. What do you expect the team to do in that kind of situation?

Quote:
In my opinion the talent to amass point is totally different to the talent you need to hit the highest peaks or make the unthikable happen in a race. He rarely explores or plays with the limits, but at the same time that is the reason why he is so consistent. I have always considered Alonso a faster version of Button but with a bigger political talent(Ricciardo is made from the same mold minus the political talent).


Not sure why you think that. For example, at Monaco, Brundle regularly observes from trackside that Alonso is one of the drivers who gives the barriers the least amount of margin.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:30 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:

WDCs are won with the best cars not the fastest cars. and in those 2 years, the Renault was on average the best car(+team).
How will you rate the 2012 McLaren car? Do you think Alonso would have a shot at the WDC if he was driving the McLaren that year?

The best car to me is team operations+strategy+reliability+speed. Speed alone is not enough.


In modern day F1 speed is the most important thing out of the above.

Quote:
Fisichella.. You mean the guy who won the 2005 first race and then was screwed up multiple times by his own team? His main goal(whenever possible) in 2006 was to protect Alonso from Schumacher(China and Brazil are some examples). Never seen a more dedicated #2 driver.


1. in 2005 how was he screwed in Malaysia? or Imola? Please also note that JPM drove 2 less races than Fisi yet still outscored him.

2. in 2006 he protected Alonso in those final races when he was well out of the running for the championship. Remind me what happened earlier in the season at Malaysia? Also, you stated earlier that Ferrari have a drivers policy, so surely (by your standards) the comparison between Fisi and Massa is a fair one?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:53 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:

In modern day F1 speed is the most important thing out of the above.

So you would prefer to retire multiple times from the lead or going for a pit stop only for your wheel gun to get stuck? or what about getting pole only to be thrown at the back because your team underfuelled you in Q3?

No question in some cases it is better to have a fast(not fastest) but much more reliable car.

davidheath461 wrote:
1. in 2005 how was he screwed in Malaysia? or Imola? Please also note that JPM drove 2 less races than Fisi yet still outscored him.

2. in 2006 he protected Alonso in those final races when he was well out of the running for the championship. Remind me what happened earlier in the season at Malaysia? Also, you stated earlier that Ferrari have a drivers policy, so surely (by your standards) the comparison between Fisi and Massa is a fair one?


JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:11 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
[
So you would prefer to retire multiple times from the lead or going for a pit stop only for your wheel gun to be stuck? or what about getting pole only to be thrown at the back because your team underfuelled you in Q3?

No question in some cases it is better to have a fast(not fastest) but much more reliable car.


Yes, i would.



Quote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.


Right, so if your inference is correct, why did Briatore not issue team orders at Malaysia 2006?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:31 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:36 am 
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Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.

I dont think he was that comfortable with so much understeer. Some understeer maybe, but the Renaults were VERY understeery.
He has proven to be able to drive fast any car he's been given, he has the ability to extract the most out of any car


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:44 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
[
So you would prefer to retire multiple times from the lead or going for a pit stop only for your wheel gun to be stuck? or what about getting pole only to be thrown at the back because your team underfuelled you in Q3?

No question in some cases it is better to have a fast(not fastest) but much more reliable car.


Yes, i would.



Quote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.


Right, so if your inference is correct, why did Briatore not issue team orders at Malaysia 2006?


Yeah, Malaysia 2006 was always a question regarding Fisico playing the second fiddle to Alonso. Sure it was at the start of the year, but Schumacher was just 2 points behind Alonso, Alonso would need all the help he could as that year's Ferrari wasn't having the tyre problems of the '05 season. Yet Fisico was "allowed" to take 2 points of Alonso.

Mystery


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:20 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
[
So you would prefer to retire multiple times from the lead or going for a pit stop only for your wheel gun to be stuck? or what about getting pole only to be thrown at the back because your team underfuelled you in Q3?

No question in some cases it is better to have a fast(not fastest) but much more reliable car.


Yes, i would.



Quote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.


Right, so if your inference is correct, why did Briatore not issue team orders at Malaysia 2006?


Yeah, Malaysia 2006 was always a question regarding Fisico playing the second fiddle to Alonso. Sure it was at the start of the year, but Schumacher was just 2 points behind Alonso, Alonso would need all the help he could as that year's Ferrari wasn't having the tyre problems of the '05 season. Yet Fisico was "allowed" to take 2 points of Alonso.

Mystery

My memory is a little sketchy but wasn't Alonso over fuelled that race due to an error? Anyway, he led for some of the race but Fisi was ahead after the final stops. I don't think that's real evidence of the lack of team favouritism, especially so early in the season.

Personally I think Alonso has usually enjoyed No1 status where he's been, which probably accounts for why he was so upset at not getting it at McLaren in 2007. But OTOH it's also been down to the fact that he's been demonstrably the better driver anyway and the teams have taken advantage of that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:39 am 
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Zoue wrote:
My memory is a little sketchy but wasn't Alonso over fuelled that race due to an error?

He was over fuelled in qualifying so he fell way behind in the results and then he had to recover at the race.
That evil Briatore sabotaging both of his drivers :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.


That's a little unfair... Alonso's strength is that he has no specific likings. The car could only function well because it was set to high traction in lower speeds. Something that came with the inconvenient high understeer. Alonso managed it, inventing a driving style that he has abandoned since he moved from Renault in 2006. Every other car he's driven has not required that same, outrageous driving style. He's managed to perform at the highest level with every single different car he's been given.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
[
So you would prefer to retire multiple times from the lead or going for a pit stop only for your wheel gun to be stuck? or what about getting pole only to be thrown at the back because your team underfuelled you in Q3?

No question in some cases it is better to have a fast(not fastest) but much more reliable car.


Yes, i would.



Quote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.


Right, so if your inference is correct, why did Briatore not issue team orders at Malaysia 2006?


Yeah, Malaysia 2006 was always a question regarding Fisico playing the second fiddle to Alonso. Sure it was at the start of the year, but Schumacher was just 2 points behind Alonso, Alonso would need all the help he could as that year's Ferrari wasn't having the tyre problems of the '05 season. Yet Fisico was "allowed" to take 2 points of Alonso.

Mystery

My memory is a little sketchy but wasn't Alonso over fuelled that race due to an error? Anyway, he led for some of the race but Fisi was ahead after the final stops. I don't think that's real evidence of the lack of team favouritism, especially so early in the season.

Personally I think Alonso has usually enjoyed No1 status where he's been, which probably accounts for why he was so upset at not getting it at McLaren in 2007. But OTOH it's also been down to the fact that he's been demonstrably the better driver anyway and the teams have taken advantage of that.

That's true, but he finished very close, only 4 secs or so behind his team mate through some awesome race strategy, he didn't finish a minute behind. So I'd imagine they would tell Fisico to slow his pace and let him go through. Very early in the season indeed, but neck to neck with MS. And against MS you needed to hoover all the crumbles you could get as the title suggests. Anyway, not a biggie, just that it always made me wonder


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:58 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Not sure why you think that. For example, at Monaco, Brundle regularly observes from trackside that Alonso is one of the drivers who gives the barriers the least amount of margin.

Nonsense… ALL the top guys come equally close to "kissing" the walls/barriers all over Monaco. The same however is true anywhere where the edge of the track is a static barrier. Wall of Champions anyone?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.

BINGO!

Just as in Boxing… Styles make fights, the same rings true in F1. Fisi is a VERY capable driver and while perhaps not quite as superb as Alonso, he's not that far off to finish several places behind just because. Another huge factor in that team while Alonso AND Briatore was there is that Briatore was and still continues to be Alonso's manager so it there was always a conflict of interest there because of that. The better results his client achieved, the higher his asking price and the more money Alonso makes, the more money Briatore makes. It's simple business and Fisi wasn't the only one to have to deal with that scenario with that team.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:12 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.

I dont think he was that comfortable with so much understeer. Some understeer maybe, but the Renaults were VERY understeery.
He has proven to be able to drive fast any car he's been given, he has the ability to extract the most out of any car

The level or degree of understeer is totally reliant on a particular driver's preferences. What may feel like excessive understeer to one driver, might feel just right for another if he prefers to drive more with the rear of the car than the front, which is how Alonso prefers to muscle his cars around. He's a driver that enters corners just well enough to allow him to control the drift via throttle input and he does this better than most anyone in all of F1. That's why he performed so much better than Kimi at Ferrari. Kimi prefers a car that allows him to use the front end to steer the car precisely where and how he wants to. So of course, in a car that had a superior rear end Kimi was never going to shine against Alonso.

Having said that, Alonso can adapt better to a car that's the other way around and match and even beat teammates because he's that adaptable to almost any situation.

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HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:14 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.


That's a little unfair... Alonso's strength is that he has no specific likings. The car could only function well because it was set to high traction in lower speeds. Something that came with the inconvenient high understeer. Alonso managed it, inventing a driving style that he has abandoned since he moved from Renault in 2006. Every other car he's driven has not required that same, outrageous driving style. He's managed to perform at the highest level with every single different car he's been given.

As for the Renaults Alonso drove having too much understeer, the mass damper alleviated that to a great degree in many situations but Alonso took to it the way Vettel did the DD & EBD.

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HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:57 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.


That's a little unfair... Alonso's strength is that he has no specific likings. The car could only function well because it was set to high traction in lower speeds. Something that came with the inconvenient high understeer. Alonso managed it, inventing a driving style that he has abandoned since he moved from Renault in 2006. Every other car he's driven has not required that same, outrageous driving style. He's managed to perform at the highest level with every single different car he's been given.


Hi ZeroGT: your comments are very interesting. :thumbup: You have explained Alonso's lack of 'preferences, borne out by his consistently high performances. 2005-2016 is along time. Schumacher's best were 1994-2006

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:37 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
JPM was driving for a team(McLaren) where equal status is the norm and Fisichella was driving for a team(Renault) where all the work revolved around Alonso.
If I was Briatore myself(Oh God no!) I would make sure to put Fisichella or whoever is driving the 2nd car out of the championship before the last races. And believe me he is capable of this..

Alonso has spent most of his career in teams where he was the #1 driver.

Yeah sure, so going by this logic Fisi should've finished right behind Alonso in most races (Rubinho style), instead of finishing tipically 3-4 places behind.
It was no secret that Alonso could manage to drive fast that highly understeering Renault and Fisi couldn't keep pace with him, its that simple.

It was set up to Alonso's likings (high understeer) so of course he was more comfortable in it.


That's a little unfair... Alonso's strength is that he has no specific likings. The car could only function well because it was set to high traction in lower speeds. Something that came with the inconvenient high understeer. Alonso managed it, inventing a driving style that he has abandoned since he moved from Renault in 2006. Every other car he's driven has not required that same, outrageous driving style. He's managed to perform at the highest level with every single different car he's been given.


Hi ZeroGT: your comments are very interesting. :thumbup: You have explained Alonso's lack of 'preferences, borne out by his consistently high performances. 2005-2016 is along time. Schumacher's best were 1994-2006

The two are independent though. Being adaptable is certainly a strength, and one of the reasons both Alonso and Hamilton are so good. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have specific likings, and a preferential way to develop the car. I am sure even if the Renault inherently had high understeer there were tweaks and refinements that could be made to at least make the driver (or drivers) relatively more comfortable.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:27 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nonsense… ALL the top guys come equally close to "kissing" the walls/barriers all over Monaco. The same however is true anywhere where the edge of the track is a static barrier. Wall of Champions anyone?

Thats impossible... some drivers must drive closer to the walls than others, by simple common sense.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Just as in Boxing… Styles make fights, the same rings true in F1. Fisi is a VERY capable driver and while perhaps not quite as superb as Alonso, he's not that far off to finish several places behind just because. Another huge factor in that team while Alonso AND Briatore was there is that Briatore was and still continues to be Alonso's manager so it there was always a conflict of interest there because of that. The better results his client achieved, the higher his asking price and the more money Alonso makes, the more money Briatore makes. It's simple business and Fisi wasn't the only one to have to deal with that scenario with that team.

Interesting story, it would make some sense if Briatore was Alonso's manager lol... Luis Garcia Abad is Alonso's true manager.
Briatore was more like his boss and mentor in his first years, and now he's just a very close friend of him.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:31 pm 
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x(
Pullrod wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Renault F1 team won the WCC in 2005 and in 2006.

Thanks to his points.
2005 was slower than McLaren but more reliable, and overall not better I'd say.
2006 was better in the first half and Ferrari was better in the 2nd half, overall both matched if not the Ferrari a bit better.

Massa and Montoya did better than Fisichella both years.



WDCs are won with the best cars not the fastest cars. and in those 2 years, the Renault was on average the best car(+team).
How will you rate the 2012 McLaren car? Do you think Alonso would have a shot at the WDC if he was driving the McLaren that year?

The best car to me is team operations+strategy+reliability+speed. Speed alone is not enough.

Fisichella.. You mean the guy who won the 2005 first race and then was screwed up multiple times by his own team? His main goal(whenever possible) in 2006 was to protect Alonso from Schumacher(China and Brazil are some examples). Never seen a more dedicated #2 driver.

Nobody could have with the amount of points McLaren left on the table with sheer incompetence. Hamilton's 2012 season was every bit as impressive as Alonso's, the difference being Alonso's car was bulletproof.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:18 am 
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Renault was without doubt the car to drive for the 2006 campaign. Fisi couldn't keep up because he's a confidence driver and was being treated like a mule in that team.

As for Malaysia, it was early in the season for position swapping and Schumacher stayed behind Massa too.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:23 am 
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myattitude wrote:
Renault was without doubt the car to drive for the 2006 campaign. Fisi couldn't keep up because he's a confidence driver and was being treated like a mule in that team.

As for Malaysia, it was early in the season for position swapping and Schumacher stayed behind Massa too.


Based on?

Over the season the Renault and Ferrari looked pretty equal. Assuming Alonso and Schumacher were driving equally well of course.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:54 am 
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myattitude wrote:
Renault was without doubt the car to drive for the 2006 campaign. Fisi couldn't keep up because he's a confidence driver and was being treated like a mule in that team.

As for Malaysia, it was early in the season for position swapping and Schumacher stayed behind Massa too.


Based on?

Over the season the Renault and Ferrari looked pretty equal. Assuming Alonso and Schumacher were driving equally well of course.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:55 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Renault was without doubt the car to drive for the 2006 campaign. Fisi couldn't keep up because he's a confidence driver and was being treated like a mule in that team.

As for Malaysia, it was early in the season for position swapping and Schumacher stayed behind Massa too.


Based on?

Over the season the Renault and Ferrari looked pretty equal. Assuming Alonso and Schumacher were driving equally well of course.


Not really, before the mass damper affair the Renault was better, they had something like 7 wins out of 9 races. After the mass damper removal Ferrari caught up. Renault lost more than 0.3 sec per lap at the time. The results after the summer break showed the advantage they had with the mass damper. In fact, they had such an advantage that they managed to retain both the championships even though they were slower than before. Their first race after the removal of the system they were much slower than the Ferraris, didn't even make the podium. They only won one more race after that, courtesy of Schumacher's expired engine.

Although it is impossible to judge fairly, but the Renaults had the advantage of the mass damper for 2/3 of the season so I'd say that overall the Renault was the better car of the two, with Ferrari not far behind.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Renault was without doubt the car to drive for the 2006 campaign. Fisi couldn't keep up because he's a confidence driver and was being treated like a mule in that team.

As for Malaysia, it was early in the season for position swapping and Schumacher stayed behind Massa too.


Based on?

Over the season the Renault and Ferrari looked pretty equal. Assuming Alonso and Schumacher were driving equally well of course.


Not really, before the mass damper affair the Renault was better, they had something like 7 wins out of 9 races. After the mass damper removal Ferrari caught up. Renault lost more than 0.3 sec per lap at the time. The results after the summer break showed the advantage they had with the mass damper. In fact, they had such an advantage that they managed to retain both the championships even though they were slower than before. Their first race after the removal of the system they were much slower than the Ferraris, didn't even make the podium. They only won one more race after that, courtesy of Schumacher's expired engine.

Although it is impossible to judge fairly, but the Renaults had the advantage of the mass damper for 2/3 of the season so I'd say that overall the Renault was the better car of the two, with Ferrari not far behind.


This is all assuming Alonso and Schumacher had very similar pace?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Renault was without doubt the car to drive for the 2006 campaign. Fisi couldn't keep up because he's a confidence driver and was being treated like a mule in that team.

As for Malaysia, it was early in the season for position swapping and Schumacher stayed behind Massa too.


Based on?

Over the season the Renault and Ferrari looked pretty equal. Assuming Alonso and Schumacher were driving equally well of course.


Not really, before the mass damper affair the Renault was better, they had something like 7 wins out of 9 races. After the mass damper removal Ferrari caught up. Renault lost more than 0.3 sec per lap at the time. The results after the summer break showed the advantage they had with the mass damper. In fact, they had such an advantage that they managed to retain both the championships even though they were slower than before. Their first race after the removal of the system they were much slower than the Ferraris, didn't even make the podium. They only won one more race after that, courtesy of Schumacher's expired engine.

Although it is impossible to judge fairly, but the Renaults had the advantage of the mass damper for 2/3 of the season so I'd say that overall the Renault was the better car of the two, with Ferrari not far behind.


This is all assuming Alonso and Schumacher had very similar pace?

I base it on a number of factors, including Alonso having no where near the pace of Schumacher, actually. I'll get to that factor later but other factors include being on the Michelin side of the field which gives a Michelin championship contender strength in numbers over Ferrari in the races at Michelin favoured tracks, as well as Fisi making the car look slower ala the F2007 with their drivers.

Fisi is like Massa, both head drivers. When they are happy and confident they become faster and more consistent. When they are unhappy they are all at sea. Their performances as team-mates in 2004 (Fisi beat Massa then) was vastly different to 2 years later when their circumstances changed. You could see this from their onboards in 2006:

Fisi from corner to corner would make lots of small mistakes, always chasing his own pace, trying to overcome his self inflicted deficits and his mission to overhaul Alonso. Meanwhile Massa had a tremendously smoothed out style of driving compared to his Sauber bonsai days, this can be put down to being under Michael's wing - even a couple of months ago he described being Michael's teammate as driving alongside his "teacher" (his word). He definitely wasn't getting the Rubens treatment there.

So on the one hand, you have Fisi getting the pre-Piquet treatment at Renault, trying to produce results under pressure, and then you had Massa getting the mentoring treatment at Ferrari, producing a much calmer driving style that got better as the season went on.

Massa was easily outperforming Fisi in 2006, making the Renault look slower than it actually was and the Ferrari look faster than it actually was.

As for Michael Vs Fernando, Michael's pace against a confident, happy and protected Massa was about 5/tenths faster, Alonso wasn't faster than that against even an unhappy pressured Massa a few years later.

2006 was a fantastic season, I think history has written it inaccurately.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:44 pm 
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This whole idea of separating drivers pace from that of a car as if there is a simple relation of addition (the famous 6 tenths :lol: ) is just plain stupid and pointless IMO. I understand people are bored in the offseason, but another "Alonso drives beyond the capabilities of the car" thread, geez x( , haven't we had enough of these already.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:55 pm 
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motorfinger wrote:
This whole idea of separating drivers pace from that of a car as if there is a simple relation of addition (the famous 6 tenths :lol: ) is just plain stupid and pointless IMO. I understand people are bored in the offseason, but another "Alonso drives beyond the capabilities of the car" thread, geez x( , haven't we had enough of these already.

It's hard to quantify exactly and it is bit of a black art, but a well researched assessment can give you a pretty good picture. It's the simplistic analyses that let this exercise down (you know like the 'Fisi beat Massa therefore Fisi is faster than Kimi' types of analyses).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:09 pm 
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myattitude wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Renault was without doubt the car to drive for the 2006 campaign. Fisi couldn't keep up because he's a confidence driver and was being treated like a mule in that team.

As for Malaysia, it was early in the season for position swapping and Schumacher stayed behind Massa too.


Based on?

Over the season the Renault and Ferrari looked pretty equal. Assuming Alonso and Schumacher were driving equally well of course.


Not really, before the mass damper affair the Renault was better, they had something like 7 wins out of 9 races. After the mass damper removal Ferrari caught up. Renault lost more than 0.3 sec per lap at the time. The results after the summer break showed the advantage they had with the mass damper. In fact, they had such an advantage that they managed to retain both the championships even though they were slower than before. Their first race after the removal of the system they were much slower than the Ferraris, didn't even make the podium. They only won one more race after that, courtesy of Schumacher's expired engine.

Although it is impossible to judge fairly, but the Renaults had the advantage of the mass damper for 2/3 of the season so I'd say that overall the Renault was the better car of the two, with Ferrari not far behind.


This is all assuming Alonso and Schumacher had very similar pace?

I base it on a number of factors, including Alonso having no where near the pace of Schumacher, actually. I'll get to that factor later but other factors include being on the Michelin side of the field which gives a Michelin championship contender strength in numbers over Ferrari in the races at Michelin favoured tracks, as well as Fisi making the car look slower ala the F2007 with their drivers.

Fisi is like Massa, both head drivers. When they are happy and confident they become faster and more consistent. When they are unhappy they are all at sea. Their performances as team-mates in 2004 (Fisi beat Massa then) was vastly different to 2 years later when their circumstances changed. You could see this from their onboards in 2006:

Fisi from corner to corner would make lots of small mistakes, always chasing his own pace, trying to overcome his self inflicted deficits and his mission to overhaul Alonso. Meanwhile Massa had a tremendously smoothed out style of driving compared to his Sauber bonsai days, this can be put down to being under Michael's wing - even a couple of months ago he described being Michael's teammate as driving alongside his "teacher" (his word). He definitely wasn't getting the Rubens treatment there.

So on the one hand, you have Fisi getting the pre-Piquet treatment at Renault, trying to produce results under pressure, and then you had Massa getting the mentoring treatment at Ferrari, producing a much calmer driving style that got better as the season went on.

Massa was easily outperforming Fisi in 2006, making the Renault look slower than it actually was and the Ferrari look faster than it actually was.

As for Michael Vs Fernando, Michael's pace against a confident, happy and protected Massa was about 5/tenths faster, Alonso wasn't faster than that against even an unhappy pressured Massa a few years later.

2006 was a fantastic season, I think history has written it inaccurately.


I think that Fisico's driving was more consistent, finishing in positions 2-6 the whole year. Massa had a few finishes outside the points, he was more inconsistent. They were also very close in points at the end of the year, with Massa just ahead.

It doesn't say much of course. It is interesting though that up until the mass damper was omitted (Germany) Fisico was ahead in points, after that Massa overtook him. Kind of sums up the story that year!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Not really, before the mass damper affair the Renault was better, they had something like 7 wins out of 9 races. After the mass damper removal Ferrari caught up. Renault lost more than 0.3 sec per lap at the time. The results after the summer break showed the advantage they had with the mass damper. In fact, they had such an advantage that they managed to retain both the championships even though they were slower than before. Their first race after the removal of the system they were much slower than the Ferraris, didn't even make the podium. They only won one more race after that, courtesy of Schumacher's expired engine.

Although it is impossible to judge fairly, but the Renaults had the advantage of the mass damper for 2/3 of the season so I'd say that overall the Renault was the better car of the two, with Ferrari not far behind.

With the mass damper the Ferrari was not far back (sometimes was even better... schumacher won some races and had some 2nd places with massa not far behind) and without the mass damper the ferrari was clearly better.
Heck, even Massa was getting similar results as Alonso the second part of the season... and we all know who's the better driver of the two.

2006 renault was definitely not better overall than the Ferrari, to say the least. And IMO the Ferrari was JUST ahead considering everything. By a tiny bit, but ahead of the Renault overall.
You could argue that Schumacher was a bit over the hill already in 2006, surely, but that's not Alonso's problem.

myattitude wrote:
I base it on a number of factors, including Alonso having no where near the pace of Schumacher, actually.

Nowhere near the pace... Nowhere near... Nice one... its cool to have some humour on this forum sometimes.
Massa himself said that Alonso was better than Schumacher.
Briatore (knows both of them well) said that Alonso was usually as quick as Schumacher but even more consistent.
So there you go


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:22 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
I base it on a number of factors, including Alonso having no where near the pace of Schumacher, actually.

Nowhere near the pace... Nowhere near... Nice one... its cool to have some humour on this forum sometimes.
Massa himself said that Alonso was better than Schumacher.
Briatore (knows both of them well) said that Alonso was usually as quick as Schumacher but even more consistent.
So there you go

Massa said that while they were still teammates, or just after. Flavio is Alonso's manager and would say that, he still claims he was acquitted over Singapore :lol:


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