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 Post subject: Driver speed advantages
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:27 am 
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Taking the top, fastest driver/s each season and comparing their driver-rating/s with the next fastest rival team drivers' ratings
(as measured on my System) the greatest advantages have been:

1960: Moss vs von Trips= 0.5 sec per lap.
1963: Surtees and Clark vs Brabham and Graham Hill=0.5 sec.
1966: Surtees and Clark vs Brabham, G Hill, Gurney and Scarfiotti=0.5 sec.

1964: Surtees and Clark vs Gurney =0.4 sec.
1965: Surtees and Clark vs Gurney =0.4 sec.
2001: Schumacher vs Coulthard, Barrichello and Ralf Schumacher=0.4 sec.

The next-greatest driver advantage has been 0.3 sec per lap, for 16 seasons between 1951 and 2014.

I need to point out that my ratings are purely on-track, speed-based comparisons. They take no account of car reliability, race results or WC points.

Late edit to title: my bloody paddle change is giving trouble, getting old. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:42 pm 
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For the dominant drivers, the ones who enjoyed the greatest advantage over their team-mates:

1963: Clark vs Trevor Taylor 3.3 secs/lap.
1954: Fangio vs Kling 1.7 secs /lap.
1995: Schumacher vs Herbert 1.4 secs/lap.
1971: Stewart vs Cevert 1.3 secs/lap.
1994: Schumacher vs Jos Verstappen 1.3 secs/lap.
1960 Brabham vs Bruce McLaren 1.23 secs/lap.
1957: Fangio vs Behra 1.2 secs/lap.

By comparison some of the closest were:

2014-2016: Hamilton vs Nico Rosberg 0.1 to 0.2 secs/lap.

These are season average figures.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:47 pm 
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How do Senna and Prost compare and then compare to the rest of the field?

I have this theory that the 1988 McLaren, although it was the best car, was not nearly as dominant as people rate it, but that it had two of the most dominant drivers in history pushing it beyond what two average drivers would get out of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:48 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
For the dominant drivers, the ones who enjoyed the greatest advantage over their team-mates:

1963: Clark vs Trevor Taylor 3.3 secs/lap.
1954: Fangio vs Kling 1.7 secs /lap.
1995: Schumacher vs Herbert 1.4 secs/lap.
1971: Stewart vs Cevert 1.3 secs/lap.
1994: Schumacher vs Jos Verstappen 1.3 secs/lap.
1960 Brabham vs Bruce McLaren 1.23 secs/lap.
1957: Fangio vs Behra 1.2 secs/lap.

By comparison some of the closest were:

2014-2016: Hamilton vs Nico Rosberg 0.1 to 0.2 secs/lap.

These are season average figures.

Out of curiosity, are you talking qualifying, or race pace, or both? Because it seemed to me (without, I stress, having the figures on hand to back it up) that the gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was bigger than that in 2016 at least


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
For the dominant drivers, the ones who enjoyed the greatest advantage over their team-mates:

1963: Clark vs Trevor Taylor 3.3 secs/lap.
1954: Fangio vs Kling 1.7 secs /lap.
1995: Schumacher vs Herbert 1.4 secs/lap.
1971: Stewart vs Cevert 1.3 secs/lap.
1994: Schumacher vs Jos Verstappen 1.3 secs/lap.
1960 Brabham vs Bruce McLaren 1.23 secs/lap.
1957: Fangio vs Behra 1.2 secs/lap.

By comparison some of the closest were:

2014-2016: Hamilton vs Nico Rosberg 0.1 to 0.2 secs/lap.

These are season average figures.

Out of curiosity, are you talking qualifying, or race pace, or both? Because it seemed to me (without, I stress, having the figures on hand to back it up) that the gap between Rosberg and Hamilton was bigger than that in 2016 at least


No one-liner or single formula answer. Which is why my explanation is so long and is published as a book.

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Last edited by POBRatings on Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:07 pm 
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What did Senna have over Hill?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
How do Senna and Prost compare and then compare to the rest of the field?

I have this theory that the 1988 McLaren, although it was the best car, was not nearly as dominant as people rate it, but that it had two of the most dominant drivers in history pushing it beyond what two average drivers would get out of it.


:thumbup: Exactly what my stats show: the McLaren-H was not as fast a car as perceived, but Senn and Prost were the fastest drivers by some way.

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Last edited by POBRatings on Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:32 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
For the dominant drivers, the ones who enjoyed the greatest advantage over their team-mates:

1963: Clark vs Trevor Taylor 3.3 secs/lap.
1954: Fangio vs Kling 1.7 secs /lap.
1995: Schumacher vs Herbert 1.4 secs/lap.
1971: Stewart vs Cevert 1.3 secs/lap.
1994: Schumacher vs Jos Verstappen 1.3 secs/lap.
1960 Brabham vs Bruce McLaren 1.23 secs/lap.
1957: Fangio vs Behra 1.2 secs/lap.

By comparison some of the closest were:

2014-2016: Hamilton vs Nico Rosberg 0.1 to 0.2 secs/lap.

These are season average figures.


Interesting. Looks like the gaps were much bigger in the past than they are now. I doubt you can find a gap exceeding 0.5 sec between teammates in modern f1. This shows how driver quality has improved over the years, probably due to simulators, telemetry etc...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:36 pm 
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Some requests:

Hamilton vs Alonso 2007
Hamilton vs Button 2012
Vettel vs Webber 2013
Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014
Ricciardo vs Verstappen 2016
Raikkonen vs Massa 2008
Vettel vs Raikkonen 2016
Alonso vs Button 2016
Massa vs Bottas 2016
Hakkinen vs Coulthard 1998
Schumacher vs Rosberg 2012


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:40 am 
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kleefton wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
For the dominant drivers, the ones who enjoyed the greatest advantage over their team-mates:

1963: Clark vs Trevor Taylor 3.3 secs/lap.
1954: Fangio vs Kling 1.7 secs /lap.
1995: Schumacher vs Herbert 1.4 secs/lap.
1971: Stewart vs Cevert 1.3 secs/lap.
1994: Schumacher vs Jos Verstappen 1.3 secs/lap.
1960 Brabham vs Bruce McLaren 1.23 secs/lap.
1957: Fangio vs Behra 1.2 secs/lap.

By comparison some of the closest were:

2014-2016: Hamilton vs Nico Rosberg 0.1 to 0.2 secs/lap.

These are season average figures.


Interesting. Looks like the gaps were much bigger in the past than they are now. I doubt you can find a gap exceeding 0.5 sec between teammates in modern f1. This shows how driver quality has improved over the years, probably due to simulators, telemetry etc...


Correct. Fields have bunched up closer to the front. The great leap forward started in 1972 when sponsorship, increased fields and tv money came into F1. You are right too about the driver quality. There are no longer the amateur type drivers, many of whom earned a living elsewhere, or just dabbled in F1 as a sport during the fifties-sixties. The cars too are all much closer to the front; so much more tech knowledge.

I don't think the difficulty of winning has changed much. Even in earlier times of some greater team-mate gaps, rivals were usually close.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:51 am 
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I think one of the biggest reasons that gaps between drivers has decreased is the impact modern technology has on the drivers. Before a driver may not have been very experienced at certain tracks for example, only driving them one weekend a year maybe and if they were less experienced than their team mate or took longer to learn the track it showed up massively.

Nowadays they know and have "driven" every track on the calendar 1000 times before they've even left their bedroom as a teenager or even before they've set foot in a proper simulator as a F1 driver.

Add in the more safe surroundings and support from race engineers and they can get closer to finding and holding the limit of their cars much much easier, thus removing much of the gap between team mates.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:14 am 
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Good points about the circuits, pitwork, engineers, etc being so good today.

But tell us Lotus49, who is that driver named Clark you quote? Never heard of him. When was he around....probably one of the amateurs, scratching around at the back of the field? :?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:25 am 
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POBRatings wrote:
Good points about the circuits, pitwork, engineers, etc being so good today.

But tell us Lotus49, who is that driver named Clark you quote? Never heard of him. When was he around....probably one of the amateurs, scratching around at the back of the field? :?


Yeah a little known farmer from my neck of the woods in the Scottish Borders, not a bad driver in all sorts of different cars ;)

We can produce some ok drivers down here, Clark,Coulthard,McNish and Leslie to name a few.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:55 am 
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Ok, ok, I remember the guy vaguely now. Bit taller and darker-haired than Stewart...

One year in the early sixties my brother and I parked our bicycles in the shade of the BRM pit at Kyalami during the week long test/practice. Hot sunny day, we had bunked rugby/athletics/swimming practice after school. Graham Hill and Jim Clark were chatting on the pit-counter. Later on when we came past, visiting other pits/teams, Graham came over and asked if those were our bikes? "Would we mind moving them to the other side of the pit; we're excpecting a pile of tyres here soon". Clark then said: "If you want to walk around, we'll look after your bikes for you! " Both laughed. I still cannot believe how polite and friendly they were. paradise.

So I'll admit, you have produced some ok drivers up there in the mists. :thumbup:

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Last edited by POBRatings on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:03 am 
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:lol: Brilliant

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:07 pm 
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The three top-rated drivers who have had their stats downgraded the most are Moss, Surtees and Alonso.
Surtees only had a competitive car for two seasons (1960 and the first two races of 1966) in his 13 year career.
Alonso has not had a top-rated car since Renault in 2006, although his Ferrraris of 2010-2013 were not far off the fastest cars.
Moss had slow or unreliable cars for most of his career.

Otherwise imo all three would be up with the other greats with high win-rates, where they belong.

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Last edited by POBRatings on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:50 am 
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Relating the wins scored by Hamilton (53),Vettel (42) and Alonso (31) to the cars they drove, the wins were almost in proportion to the relative speeds of their cars.

Hamilton had the fastest or equal fastest car for 5 of his 10 seasons.
Vettel had the fastest or equal fastest car for 5 of his 10 seasons.
Alonso had the fastest car for only 2 of his 15 seasons.

These 'fastest car' stats are not directly comparable to the wins though; one has to take into account how close to the front their other cars were.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:41 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
These 'fastest car' stats are not directly comparable to the wins though; one has to take into account how close to the front their other cars were.


And how dominant their winning cars were :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:02 pm 
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MDS: the last part of my post was badly worded. :blush:

What I meant was that one has to consider how much slower the car was compared to the top/fastest, ie the gap.

Dominance does not depend only on how fast the dominant package is, but on the competitiveness/closeness of rivals.

Whenever two or more teams were close-matched, one team could not dominate. 2012 was good example when the Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari were close matched; Vettel could not score so many wins, could not dominate. Same in 2008 and 2007 when two teams of four packages were about equal fastest. The closeness/competitiveness of rivals is just as important to win-rates as one's own package.

In 2014-2016 Mercedes enjoyed a big car advantage over rivals, about bout half a second per lap. Whereas the fastest/top drivers (Hamilton, Rosberg, Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo) were within fractions of each other in speed/performance .

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:23 pm 
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As Kleefton mentions in another thread, gaps between team-mates are /have narrowed today.
Going back to 2010, some were as wide as 1.2, others at 1.0, as recently as 2015 0.6 and 0.7 were the widest.
What surprised was how Alonso affected Massa's speed in 2010, 2011. As Felipe said, " It's not easy being Fernando's team-mate". Be informative to hear what Massa meant, once he's retired (again).

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:00 pm 
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My opening post may have given the wrong impression of how close drivers rated in earlier times(50s and 60s). I listed some of the widest gaps above.

As usual those at the top/front were closer, listed below are some team-mate pairnings:

1950 Fangio-Farina at Alfa Romeo 0.3.
1950 Villoresi-AScari at Ferrari 0.0 (equal).
1955: Fangio-Moss at Mercedes 0.1.
1958 Moss-Brooks /Vanwall 0.2.
1958 Hawthorn-Musso /Ferrari 0.1
1958 Behra-Schell/BRM 0.0 (equal).
1965: Hill G-Stewart/BRM 0.3. Not bad for rookie Stewart!
1965 Gurney-Hulme/Brabham-Climax 0.4.

For comparison Hakkinen -DC/McLaren-Mercedes in 1998 was 0.2; Hamilton-Button/McLaren-Mercedes 2010-2011 was 0.2.
In my 1994 analytical book , I found that the competition at the front hardly changes, it has usually been close. The big difference today is the closing up of the fields to the front.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:27 pm 
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I have always stressed that among the top few GP/F1 drivers there is little difference in speed.

However I once saw what a difference a top driver can make in same-cars. I realise this was not F1, but what in the US is termed sprintcar racing on ovals. In South Africa and I believe the UK it was called 'hotrod' racing, on short ovals only. During the fifities- sixties the sport developed in South Africa into a strong annual series, but with all homebuilt cars, using US V8 engines, on low budgets. A driver came over from the UK, Johnny King. His car had a Citroen Traction Avant body, and he flew a huge Union Jack on the roof. He was really popular.

One Friday evening, as usual, Johnny had won most of the heats, but for the final, his car had a problem and could not run. When announced the crowd groaned, even when assured that Johnny would be driving the Club car. This car was always shared by several Club drivers and usually finished third or fourth. In the final, the fastest from the heats started at the back of the 25 car field. All expected King to not do too well in that car especially as he had to start 25th. The way he e carved through the field on the 1/4 mile oval was incredible, and by about 15 laps he was in the lead and won. What an exhibition of driving skill and talent. I have to admit, a driver can make a difference :blush: .

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Interesting POBRatings!

Long before i was born, but the name Johnny King rang some bells. So I had a look. He came 2nd in the BriSCA Stock Car World Championship in 1961, I guess they were called Seniors then rather than F1 Stock Cars as they are known now.

I came across this page, which 2/3rds of the way down is some pictures of him you.might enjoy:

http://www.oldstox.com/SeniorsF1sintheSixties.htm


FYI. The best guys still start at the back nowadays. It's still a great sight to see the best carve their way through, using the bumper where necessary, but not outright crashing like in bangers.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:41 am 
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Incredible Herb! :thumbup: Those days were so far back and so far away from the centre of the world, I cannot believe anyone would ever have heard anything about it today. You obviously 'get' stock car racing and how it all works: Derek Warwick for president, great racing background and such a nice guy.

Johnny King was so dedicated to the racing. With my brother and a friend we visited him at his small council flat in Johannesburg, where he stayed with his wife. He showed us his car, just parked in the open, no garages, not even a carport. He was low-key and did not chat much. We could see he was struggling financially, pay was hardly Kimi-style. But King must have known his chassis and engines, because he was always at the front, and there were good rival drivers and cars.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:15 am 
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Herb: your link jogged my memory: it was also called 'stock-car' racing in SA, and started about 1955. The Johannesburg promoter travelled to the UK (England then!) a lot, and started with Speedway racing in 1949. Henry Long was the Brit and SA champ then in those days.

The way you described the gentle bumper-nudges is spot-on; they were so talented and sensitive, they make Daniil /Lewis/Nico look like clumsy amateurs :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:19 am 
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POBRatings wrote:
Incredible Herb! :thumbup: Those days were so far back and so far away from the centre of the world, I cannot believe anyone would ever have heard anything about it today. You obviously 'get' stock car racing and how it all works: Derek Warwick for president, great racing background and such a nice guy.

Johnny King was so dedicated to the racing. With my brother and a friend we visited him at his small council flat in Johannesburg, where he stayed with his wife. He showed us his car, just parked in the open, no garages, not even a carport. He was low-key and did not chat much. We could see he was struggling financially, pay was hardly Kimi-style. But King must have known his chassis and engines, because he was always at the front, and there were good rival drivers and cars.


I definitely 'get' stock cars - I've stopped going as regularly due to life getting in the way, but I used to go all over the country (and even across to Texel, a little island off Holland) to watch them. Really F1 has been a replacement for them in my life.

One of the main things I like about stock cars is the accessibility to the drivers, and you tend to find Stock Car drivers are very approachable, normally you have access to the pits and I've been to the current BriSCA F1 World Champion's yard (Frankie Wainman) a few times. Normally him and his mechanics are working on his or somebody else's car. And are quite happy to have a chat and a cuppa. His yard is also a graveyard for old cars - walking around, it was amazing to see old cars I'd only seen in pictures (sadly) slowly crumbling away.

To go back to the topic, He is also driver that I believe in his prime would have won in practically any formula. I heard about him doing a demo against the then Hot Rod world champion around the Wimbledon track (which is sadly closing this year), doing time trials around the track in their own, and then each others car - he beat him handily.

I really must get to a race or two more this year!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:23 am 
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POBRatings wrote:
Herb: your link jogged my memory: it was also called 'stock-car' racing in SA, and started about 1955. The Johannesburg promoter travelled to the UK (England then!) a lot, and started with Speedway racing in 1949. Henry Long was the Brit and SA champ then in those days.

The way you described the gentle bumper-nudges is spot-on; they were so talented and sensitive, they make Daniil /Lewis/Nico look like clumsy amateurs :lol:


Indeed they would!

Don't Spedeworth have a SA presence? I'm not sure on the ins and outs of it because when I went frequently Spedeworth mainly ran the southern tracks here - and were outside of the 'BriSCA' series - I only occasionally ventured down to them :)

I'm fairly sure I remember SA sending a representative or two to some of our 'World' championships (we're as bad as US sports! :)) when I went regularly in the early to mid 00's.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Like you I have life intervening too much, and F1 has replaced all other forms of motorsport. I am completely out of touch with stock/sprint or other forms of car racing anywhere. During the sixties the SA racers, with bigger budgets and higher tech, built US style sprint cars with 500hp v8 engines; what I miss most is the close racing, the noise of those V8s, how they could torue lift the inside front wheels on acceleration, and how your chest felt the rumbling vibrations of 20 of them in the confines of a packed stadium and a short oval.
In about 1968 SA spriintcar champion Alan Saffy did couple of laps at Kyalami before the GP: very popular with the crowds, charged each corner and purposely lifted inner front wheels. Surpisingly he had a Buick V8 when most were Chevs.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Now listen here Herb: if we don't stop this nonsense and get back to the OP, the Mods will refuse us PF1 tickets to the 2017 grid walkabouts.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Two drivers whose reputations seemed greater than their F1 speed: Siffert and Pedro Rodrigeuz.
I think what earned them popular acclaim were their exploits in the sports-racing Porsche 917s, esp in the rain at Spa, etc.
Siffert also gained fame for winning the 1968 British GP in Rob Walker's Lotus-Cosworth 49B; the last win for a privately owned car-team.
My driver-ratings found them not to have been really fast, and Rodriguez was so much slower than Siffert.
As Rindt once said:"A GP driver will always beat a sports car driver.' Seems to have been true.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Anyone know or have stats on how many winning drivers there have been 1950-2016?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:41 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Anyone know or have stats on how many winning drivers there have been 1950-2016?


106 different winners according to Wiki. First was Farina and 106th was Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:37 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Like you I have life intervening too much, and F1 has replaced all other forms of motorsport. I am completely out of touch with stock/sprint or other forms of car racing anywhere. During the sixties the SA racers, with bigger budgets and higher tech, built US style sprint cars with 500hp v8 engines; what I miss most is the close racing, the noise of those V8s, how they could torue lift the inside front wheels on acceleration, and how your chest felt the rumbling vibrations of 20 of them in the confines of a packed stadium and a short oval.
In about 1968 SA spriintcar champion Alan Saffy did couple of laps at Kyalami before the GP: very popular with the crowds, charged each corner and purposely lifted inner front wheels. Surpisingly he had a Buick V8 when most were Chevs.

Sure take the thread back on topic just as you start talking about my favorite sounding engine. Good 'ol push rod V8's. ;)

I grew up in the SoCal hot rod car culture of the original muscle car era and going to NASCAR races at Riverside and Ontario, as well as what are called "late model" stock cars racing on short dirt ovals and still associate that chest pounding sound with power.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Sorry about that Raggedman! :(
I envy you living in Cal with all that racing and car enthusiasm. My first car was a 1937 Chev Coupe into which we fitted at 318 Plymouth V8 (5.2-litres for this Forum :) ). Back in mid-sixties in Johannesburg South Africa, this was cheapest way I could get performance. A group of us were really into street rods. When Dan Gurney was preparing his Eagles for the 1967 SA GP at a local garage, a bunch of us rumbled onto to forecourt with our rods and revved up. Dan stood up, left his Eagle and came out with a huge grin:" Geez you guys, you remind me of California when I was into rods!" He then spent about 30 mins looking at each car, recognised the various mills: Chev, Chrysler hemi, Studebaker, Pontiac, Ford, etc asked about gearboxes, rear axles,etc. He then asked that we collect him and his crew and take them in the rods to the roadhouse (across the road, the Doll House) for hamburgers and milkshakes (as we called them), 'for old time's sake'. But the next evening Dan came out and apologised, but they were too busy on the F1 prep. What a nice guy. Good taste in engines too! :proud: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:09 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Anyone know or have stats on how many winning drivers there have been 1950-2016?


106 different winners according to Wiki. First was Farina and 106th was Verstappen.


Thanks for that. A small number really, and it does not increase much year-on-year. Scarcity of top cars and domination by a few drivers.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:15 am 
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Herb: agreed a driver like King would probably have done well in whatever category he chose. Just remembered Johnny King's car had an Oldsmobile Rocket V8 in SA. You just never know when this vital info could help if marooned on a desert island when all you're wearing is an anorak. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:59 am 
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POBRatings wrote:
Herb: agreed a driver like King would probably have done well in whatever category he chose. Just remembered Johnny King's car had an Oldsmobile Rocket V8 in SA. You just never know when this vital info could help if marooned on a desert island when all you're wearing is an anorak. :lol:


Right - let's really take this off-topic :)

Ah, I was actually talking about the current BriSCA F1 World(!?) Champ - Frankie Wainman Junior. He has won titles in UK, Holland and over in New Zealand. He's just a natural racer.

But do you mean this?

Image
Source: Oldstox

Looks a bit worse for wear there!

It sounds like King was of the same ilk - came to SA and was fast from the off. I liked the snippet of info on the oldstox website about him post-SA move, running an ex-Brabham F1 car modified for the short ovals, and cleaning up until it was banned.

In reading up on this - I found another F1 Stock Car/F1 GP link - The guy who built the above car, and former 3-time WF champion himself, Johnny Brise also visited SA - his son Tony raced for Frank Williams (just in the Spanish GP) and Graham Hill (the rest of the season) in 1975, and sadly died in the same plane crash as Graham.

Some of you will already know about the above - but it's new to me, amazing what you find out with a little digging.

I owe you a thanks too - this discussion has prompted me to make arrangements to go to two meetings in the next couple of months. I can't wait!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:24 pm 
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You did get back on track: to very promising F1 driver Tony Brise. Sad aircraft accident that. Tony was obviously influenced into racing by his Dad.
Some F1 drivers came from ovals/stadium tracks: Andretti, Al Unser (just one race for BRM), Warwick. Who else?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:53 pm 
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The decade average driver-ratings for the slowest race-winners:
1990s: 100.75; ie 0.75-secs/lap slower than the fastest drivers at 100.0.
2000s: 100.72 ie 0.72-secs /lap slower.
2010s: 100.70, ie 0.7-secs/lap slower.

Virtually no change in these underdog/outlier driver-ratings since 1990.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:34 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
You did get back on track: to very promising F1 driver Tony Brise. Sad aircraft accident that. Tony was obviously influenced into racing by his Dad.
Some F1 drivers came from ovals/stadium tracks: Andretti, Al Unser (just one race for BRM), Warwick. Who else?


Some bloke called Bernie too.

I remember reading about him racing at a London track, might have been West Ham, even saw one rumour that at some point he had to race under a pseudonym due to some licensing issues from another series he was racing in.

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