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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:15 am 
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I'm sure that limiting data availability to drivers wouldn't always benefit one driver over another anyway. I would expect it to emphasize certain corners/driving techniques where they are stronger, so would lead to some drivers being quicker on certain segments/tracks than others. Surely that would lead to increased time differential between team mates, but also emphasize stronger tracks of certain drivers, so you would see bigger swings weekend to weekend depending on driver preference/ability. If that was the case, surely could be only positive for the racing and more interesting for all levels of fans?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote:
I am not upset. I do find this frequent pattern so predictable though and also kinda boring!

So let me ask you. How do you think this issue affects the field and the predictability of the racing? Do you think it has any impact on team performance? Would you be against data sharing if it led to less predictable results along team lines? How about the conflict with the spirit of competition within the team? Everybody keeps clamouring for teams to let drivers race fairly. Do you think it is fair that your advantage should be given away to your teammate, whom you are required or even expected to beat?

I don't have any problem with it. Go back to 2012, when Button was struggling with his setup issues. I think it would be pretty absurd not to analyse the data from the car that was working fine in an attempt to get back on track. The team can fix it but effectively hamper themselves? I don't get it.

To be fair Hamilton is actually talking about studying braking points (his he braking x meters earlier), gears through the corners, how to drive the car.

That's a fair point.

I'm still not sure I see the issue though, although it does raise a broader question for me on the whole driving by numbers thing. Why do the drivers even need to see their own telemetry? If the issue is predictability, then let them drive by feel alone

Are they looking at their own telemetry though?

Pretty sure they are. As mentioned, everything is data driven these days so they will utilise whatever means are at their disposal


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.


Unless the car is in a wrong setting and the driver has to figure it out by himself, then the rules on radio communication are a joke and have to be relaxed so a driver can be told on how to set up the car and drive faster.

:D

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Blake wrote:
spiritone wrote:
With the amount of data that is collected now i am sure that these cars could do without a driver.
This is not like the argument of seena vs prost sharing data, the computerization of these cars has gone far beyond that.
Does it stop when you don't need a driver? Should the discussion start now about where the limits should be?


All the telemetry and set-ups do not drive the car. That still remains for the driver to do, and how well he/she does it will determine their success. So what if Bottas has all of Hamilton's telemetry, he is still not Lewis Hamilton... is he? If someone could take another driver's set-up and telemetry and then out drive said driver... what does that say about the original driver?

Just some food for thought.

This is not a case of a driver out performing his teammate by studying his data but more of a case of a slower driver basically being taught how to drive better by his faster driver and then we're lead to believe this is some kind of sporting competition.

Also how does the slower driver suddenly get the talent to out perform the faster driver when he is relying on his data, were is he suddenly going to find this extra speed that he didn't have before under his own tutelage?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He was a rookie Bottas is a 4 year veteran, also Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him.


Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.


You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

Well the first 5 races he was given preferential treatment which was stopped after Monaco, after that he was canvassing in the back ground for Hamilton to step down from his title challenge which failed, then his last resort was to hide his data, I ask again how was Alonso able to do this when we are told the data is the intellectual property of the team?

The comment itself was a generalisation, the fact is the data flow was stopped because Hamilton was beating him.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:00 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.


Unless the car is in a wrong setting and the driver has to figure it out by himself, then the rules on radio communication are a joke and have to be relaxed so a driver can be told on how to set up the car and drive faster.

:D

Your reference being an engine mode?

Who wants cars being crippled by mechanical problems, we are talking here about the basics of driving, braking, racing lines, steering input, accelerating points, gear selection etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.


One has to remember that we in an F1 forum represent a small faction of the fan base of F1. I suspect that in the "outside" world that the team-centric" fanbase may be a considerably larger percentage than it is in here. those "frustrated fans" have been following a team centered sport from the first days they became F1 fans, so not really much has changed.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.


Unless the car is in a wrong setting and the driver has to figure it out by himself, then the rules on radio communication are a joke and have to be relaxed so a driver can be told on how to set up the car and drive faster.

:D

Your reference being an engine mode?

Who wants cars being crippled by mechanical problems, we are talking here about the basics of driving, braking, racing lines, steering input, accelerating points, gear selection etc.

to be fair communication restrictions were tried but it didn't last very long, with the incident mds is referring to being a very strong catalyst in ending them.

As long as these cars have the complexity they do, banning communications is a non-starter. And that's a much bigger discussion


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:10 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He was a rookie Bottas is a 4 year veteran, also Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him.


Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.


You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

Well the first 5 races he was given preferential treatment which was stopped after Monaco, after that he was canvassing in the back ground for Hamilton to step down from his title challenge which failed, then his last resort was to hide his data, I ask again how was Alonso able to do this when we are told the data is the intellectual property of the team?

The comment itself was a generalisation, the fact is the data flow was stopped because Hamilton was beating him.


Your generalization covered a good part of the season, but enough of that.

Whether Alonso was able to stop the feeding of data to Lewis does not change the fact that the data is the intellectual property of the team, poker. How they chose to use/distribute the data is the choice of the team, if they chose to go along with Nando, that was their choice as the team.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.


One has to remember that we in an F1 forum represent a small faction of the fan base of F1. I suspect that in the "outside" world that the team-centric" fanbase may be a considerably larger percentage than it is in here. those "frustrated fans" have been following a team centered sport from the first days they became F1 fans, so not really much has changed.

I disagree I believe fans follow drivers far more than teams, Ferrari do have their own fanatical following but the more general fans follow the drivers.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.


Unless the car is in a wrong setting and the driver has to figure it out by himself, then the rules on radio communication are a joke and have to be relaxed so a driver can be told on how to set up the car and drive faster.

:D

Your reference being an engine mode?

Who wants cars being crippled by mechanical problems, we are talking here about the basics of driving, braking, racing lines, steering input, accelerating points, gear selection etc.

to be fair communication restrictions were tried but it didn't last very long, with the incident mds is referring to being a very strong catalyst in ending them.

As long as these cars have the complexity they do, banning communications is a non-starter. And that's a much bigger discussion

It failed because they actually didn't do want the fans wanted but went a step further and banned communications that allowed the cars to run healthy as well, all the fans asked for was the banning of driver coaching.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.


You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

Well the first 5 races he was given preferential treatment which was stopped after Monaco, after that he was canvassing in the back ground for Hamilton to step down from his title challenge which failed, then his last resort was to hide his data, I ask again how was Alonso able to do this when we are told the data is the intellectual property of the team?

The comment itself was a generalisation, the fact is the data flow was stopped because Hamilton was beating him.


Your generalization covered a good part of the season, but enough of that.

Whether Alonso was able to stop the feeding of data to Lewis does not change the fact that the data is the intellectual property of the team, poker. How they chose to use/distribute the data is the choice of the team, if they chose to go along with Nando, that was their choice as the team.

Well if they went along with Alonso it sort of goes against the rhetoric that the team was against him and to that point makes little sense that they allowed this bearing in mind also they were in an intense battle with Ferrari, all that Hamilton has had to do these past 3 seasons is compete against his teammate, Mercedes were always going to win everything data sharing or not and also the set up data which maximises the performance of the car would still be used.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He was a rookie Bottas is a 4 year veteran, also Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him.


Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.


You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

Well the first 5 races he was given preferential treatment which was stopped after Monaco, after that he was canvassing in the back ground for Hamilton to step down from his title challenge which failed, then his last resort was to hide his data, I ask again how was Alonso able to do this when we are told the data is the intellectual property of the team?

The comment itself was a generalisation, the fact is the data flow was stopped because Hamilton was beating him.


Now you're confusing driver data with set ups. He tried to hide his set ups from Lewis, or more likely take it in a direction he felt he could deal with better than Lewis could as hiding it from Lewis was hardly going to work post Hungary with the team dynamics as it was.

I mean he thought they were actively favouring Lewis to the point he wanted a neutral party in the garage but he thought they would still protect his set ups from Lewis at the same time?.

Seems contradictory.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:42 pm 
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Formula One cars have become so freaking complex and fragile in operation that anything (part or technique) has a ripple effect on the overall performance. If you brake a little earlier, or later, it not only affects performance but possibly the ability for the energy recovery systems to operate at their optimum. And this can become relevant on the other side of the track when you desire for that little extra oomph in accelerating down the straight in defense of your position. If you maintain a certain steering angle on corner exit, not only does it affect performance but also tire life. Even the condition of the tires affects fuel flow rates. In the middle of a run when the life is beginning to go away on tires, you must feed in gas a little more gently, thus lower fuel consumption. If you start to baby the tires, then the brake temperatures may fall below optimum operating temperature, another issue.

In any racing car everything interacts, it is just that everything in a Formula One car is running/designed up to the red limit, and there is no cushion.

All of this leads back to the "team" aspect, and the many debates we have on certain subjects. Personally, I have always opposed this "team" philosophy, if I had my way each and every driver would not have a team mate, oh how I despise this "we are team" pile of manure. But it is what it is, this is what is practiced in Formula One.

I wish to apologize to anyone and everyone if I cause them unhappiness. If I post anything you do not agree with, then please, take my arguments and shred them into little pieces. But to classify me as a "hater" is inaccurate, and doing so takes any sound exchange of opinions into nothing but monkey poo throwing contests. No one wins, we all lose.

Attack the post, not the poster.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

Well I think that's were a lot of fans perhaps get frustrated then, I believe most people follow the drivers rather than the teams and would prefer that the drivers do more of the driving rather than being instructed on the track how to drive faster.


One has to remember that we in an F1 forum represent a small faction of the fan base of F1. I suspect that in the "outside" world that the team-centric" fanbase may be a considerably larger percentage than it is in here. those "frustrated fans" have been following a team centered sport from the first days they became F1 fans, so not really much has changed.

I disagree I believe fans follow drivers far more than teams, Ferrari do have their own fanatical following but the more general fans follow the drivers.


I agree 100%


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:

Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.


You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

Well the first 5 races he was given preferential treatment which was stopped after Monaco, after that he was canvassing in the back ground for Hamilton to step down from his title challenge which failed, then his last resort was to hide his data, I ask again how was Alonso able to do this when we are told the data is the intellectual property of the team?

The comment itself was a generalisation, the fact is the data flow was stopped because Hamilton was beating him.


Now you're confusing driver data with set ups. He tried to hide his set ups from Lewis, or more likely take it in a direction he felt he could deal with better than Lewis could as hiding it from Lewis was hardly going to work post Hungary with the team dynamics as it was.

I mean he thought they were actively favouring Lewis to the point he wanted a neutral party in the garage but he thought they would still protect his set ups from Lewis at the same time?.

Seems contradictory.

I think it's just in the wording, data, set ups, Alonso stopped Hamilton from knowing his set ups, I would like to know how could he hide something that is owned by the team?

Taking a set up in the direction were Hamilton could not cope with it and then not copy seems highly unlikely.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:31 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.


You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

Well the first 5 races he was given preferential treatment which was stopped after Monaco, after that he was canvassing in the back ground for Hamilton to step down from his title challenge which failed, then his last resort was to hide his data, I ask again how was Alonso able to do this when we are told the data is the intellectual property of the team?

The comment itself was a generalisation, the fact is the data flow was stopped because Hamilton was beating him.


Now you're confusing driver data with set ups. He tried to hide his set ups from Lewis, or more likely take it in a direction he felt he could deal with better than Lewis could as hiding it from Lewis was hardly going to work post Hungary with the team dynamics as it was.

I mean he thought they were actively favouring Lewis to the point he wanted a neutral party in the garage but he thought they would still protect his set ups from Lewis at the same time?.

Seems contradictory.

I think it's just in the wording, data, set ups, Alonso stopped Hamilton from knowing his set ups, I would like to know how could he hide something that is owned by the team?

Taking a set up in the direction were Hamilton could not cope with it and then not copy seems highly unlikely.


I doubt he could at that point to be honest.

That wasn't really what I meant by that. I meant for example, if Alonso thought he could deal with understeer better than Lewis could then take it in that direction. Basically instead of setting the car up to be the best it could, set it up in a direction you think you can get more out of it than your team mate if you see what I mean.

That way you don't have to hide anything or trust the team to keep it from your team mate if that's what you've requested they do.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:52 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:

You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

Well the first 5 races he was given preferential treatment which was stopped after Monaco, after that he was canvassing in the back ground for Hamilton to step down from his title challenge which failed, then his last resort was to hide his data, I ask again how was Alonso able to do this when we are told the data is the intellectual property of the team?

The comment itself was a generalisation, the fact is the data flow was stopped because Hamilton was beating him.


Now you're confusing driver data with set ups. He tried to hide his set ups from Lewis, or more likely take it in a direction he felt he could deal with better than Lewis could as hiding it from Lewis was hardly going to work post Hungary with the team dynamics as it was.

I mean he thought they were actively favouring Lewis to the point he wanted a neutral party in the garage but he thought they would still protect his set ups from Lewis at the same time?.

Seems contradictory.

I think it's just in the wording, data, set ups, Alonso stopped Hamilton from knowing his set ups, I would like to know how could he hide something that is owned by the team?

Taking a set up in the direction were Hamilton could not cope with it and then not copy seems highly unlikely.


I doubt he could at that point to be honest.

That wasn't really what I meant by that. I meant for example, if Alonso thought he could deal with understeer better than Lewis could then take it in that direction. Basically instead of setting the car up to be the best it could, set it up in a direction you think you can get more out of it than your team mate if you see what I mean.

That way you don't have to hide anything or trust the team to keep it from your team mate if that's what you've requested they do.

The reality is that even if Alonso was capable of doing that he's still compromising the car relative to Ferrari who more often than not had the fastest car, not a sensible thing to do.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I think it's just in the wording, data, set ups, Alonso stopped Hamilton from knowing his set ups, I would like to know how could he hide something that is owned by the team?

Taking a set up in the direction were Hamilton could not cope with it and then not copy seems highly unlikely.


He probably couldn't stop the team, nor do we know for certain that he did. However, one has to admit that after Hungary, the relationship with the team was most unusual, and there was great distrust on both sides. I think one has to take the rapidly degrading relationship with the team into account whenever one discusses the internal politics of McLaren 2007.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Formula One cars have become so freaking complex and fragile in operation that anything (part or technique) has a ripple effect on the overall performance. If you brake a little earlier, or later, it not only affects performance but possibly the ability for the energy recovery systems to operate at their optimum. And this can become relevant on the other side of the track when you desire for that little extra oomph in accelerating down the straight in defense of your position. If you maintain a certain steering angle on corner exit, not only does it affect performance but also tire life. Even the condition of the tires affects fuel flow rates. In the middle of a run when the life is beginning to go away on tires, you must feed in gas a little more gently, thus lower fuel consumption. If you start to baby the tires, then the brake temperatures may fall below optimum operating temperature, another issue.

In any racing car everything interacts, it is just that everything in a Formula One car is running/designed up to the red limit, and there is no cushion.

All of this leads back to the "team" aspect, and the many debates we have on certain subjects. Personally, I have always opposed this "team" philosophy, if I had my way each and every driver would not have a team mate, oh how I despise this "we are team" pile of manure. But it is what it is, this is what is practiced in Formula One.

I wish to apologize to anyone and everyone if I cause them unhappiness. If I post anything you do not agree with, then please, take my arguments and shred them into little pieces. But to classify me as a "hater" is inaccurate, and doing so takes any sound exchange of opinions into nothing but monkey poo throwing contests. No one wins, we all lose.

Attack the post, not the poster.

So why did Hamilton fans blame Sabotage by the TEAM for every time he dint win????

I ask is question - if Hamilton spent his career in a Sauber/Manor/Minardi whatever would he been would champion ??? My personal answer would be not bloody likely!

Lewis (and every driver for that matter) needs his team to perform just as badly as they neeed him to perform


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:


Hamilton mentioned this on top gear as well a few years ago now when quizzed about his relationship with Rosberg, he said nowadays it's much harder to beat your teammate because he can see everything that you do inside the car.

As I believe as I see that has already been pointed out he was asked what he would like to see changed in F1 and the Bottas angle has been tagged onto what he said, it's nice to see the concern for Bottas' well being within the team if Hamilton ever got his wish though. :)

Yeah the overall idea of teammates not being allowed to "copy" eachother has merritt. I think Lewis obviously feels that his teammates benefit relative to him due to this practice. he feels that if the drivers were left to their own devices, he would have an advantage there.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:29 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's just in the wording, data, set ups, Alonso stopped Hamilton from knowing his set ups, I would like to know how could he hide something that is owned by the team?

Taking a set up in the direction were Hamilton could not cope with it and then not copy seems highly unlikely.


He probably couldn't stop the team, nor do we know for certain that he did. However, one has to admit that after Hungary, the relationship with the team was most unusual, and there was great distrust on both sides. I think one has to take the rapidly degrading relationship with the team into account whenever one discusses the internal politics of McLaren 2007.

Well I do remember it being said that Alonso stopped Hamilton from copying his set ups, it's hard to find any evidence of that though?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:36 am 
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In keeping with the theme of this thread, it seems Bottas does not want to share data with Hamilton. He doesn't think it's ideal. But does that make him.....what are some of the things Hamilton has been accused of.......oh yes....selfish....arrogant....afraid of his teammate......not a team player?
Believe it all not all these drivers want real competition and would all dislike it when their rival is being spoon fed basic driving tips. Where is the competition in that? Hamilton was asked a hypothetical question and gave a hypothetical answer and everyone loses their rag.....
http://readmotorsport.com/2017/02/24/bo ... disappear/


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:57 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
In keeping with the theme of this thread, it seems Bottas does not want to share data with Hamilton. He doesn't think it's ideal. But does that make him.....what are some of the things Hamilton has been accused of.......oh yes....selfish....arrogant....afraid of his teammate......not a team player?
Believe it all not all these drivers want real competition and would all dislike it when their rival is being spoon fed basic driving tips. Where is the competition in that? Hamilton was asked a hypothetical question and gave a hypothetical answer and everyone loses their rag.....
http://readmotorsport.com/2017/02/24/bo ... disappear/

You'll be shocked to know I have exactly the same opinion of it coming from Bottas. It is selfish, although understandable, to want to keep data from your teammate. That data will help both drivers go faster.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:12 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
In keeping with the theme of this thread, it seems Bottas does not want to share data with Hamilton. He doesn't think it's ideal. But does that make him.....what are some of the things Hamilton has been accused of.......oh yes....selfish....arrogant....afraid of his teammate......not a team player?
Believe it all not all these drivers want real competition and would all dislike it when their rival is being spoon fed basic driving tips. Where is the competition in that? Hamilton was asked a hypothetical question and gave a hypothetical answer and everyone loses their rag.....
http://readmotorsport.com/2017/02/24/bo ... disappear/

who's lost their rag, exactly?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:40 am 
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Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
In keeping with the theme of this thread, it seems Bottas does not want to share data with Hamilton. He doesn't think it's ideal. But does that make him.....what are some of the things Hamilton has been accused of.......oh yes....selfish....arrogant....afraid of his teammate......not a team player?
Believe it all not all these drivers want real competition and would all dislike it when their rival is being spoon fed basic driving tips. Where is the competition in that? Hamilton was asked a hypothetical question and gave a hypothetical answer and everyone loses their rag.....
http://readmotorsport.com/2017/02/24/bo ... disappear/

who's lost their rag, exactly?

Are you serious? We have 5 pages of argument over a hypothetical answer given by Hamilton to a hypothetical question. Need I say more?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:06 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
In keeping with the theme of this thread, it seems Bottas does not want to share data with Hamilton. He doesn't think it's ideal. But does that make him.....what are some of the things Hamilton has been accused of.......oh yes....selfish....arrogant....afraid of his teammate......not a team player?
Believe it all not all these drivers want real competition and would all dislike it when their rival is being spoon fed basic driving tips. Where is the competition in that? Hamilton was asked a hypothetical question and gave a hypothetical answer and everyone loses their rag.....
http://readmotorsport.com/2017/02/24/bo ... disappear/

who's lost their rag, exactly?

Are you serious? We have 5 pages of argument over a hypothetical answer given by Hamilton to a hypothetical question. Need I say more?

well, yes, because people discussing what Hamilton is saying, even if some disagree with it, is nowhere near the same as everyone losing their rag, as you claim. Seems somewhat hysterical to me, so I'd like to know how you arrived at that conclusion


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:59 am 
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Sly remark by Alonso :lol:

Quote:
Hamilton said in a recent interview, “I go out, do my laps, do all my homework, [and] the other guy can see everything. I have asked my team. I don’t want to see my teammate’s [data].”

When asked about data sharing within the team, Alonso told Sky Sport, on the occasion of the launch of the McLaren MCL32, “[Hamilton] said many times that he was learning from the data.”

“Mercedes are one of those teams that are using more of the data between the engineers to help the drivers, so he said something that was a little bit strange.”

“If he was watching more data from Rosberg last year, maybe he would have won the championship!” said Alonso.


http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02/25/ ... s-strange/

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Sly remark by Alonso :lol:

Quote:
Hamilton said in a recent interview, “I go out, do my laps, do all my homework, [and] the other guy can see everything. I have asked my team. I don’t want to see my teammate’s [data].”

When asked about data sharing within the team, Alonso told Sky Sport, on the occasion of the launch of the McLaren MCL32, “[Hamilton] said many times that he was learning from the data.”

“Mercedes are one of those teams that are using more of the data between the engineers to help the drivers, so he said something that was a little bit strange.”

“If he was watching more data from Rosberg last year, maybe he would have won the championship!” said Alonso.


http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02/25/ ... s-strange/


Really. Unless there was something in Rosbergs data that could have stopped Hamiltons car breaking down, i strongly disagree.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Really. Unless there was something in Rosbergs data that could have stopped Hamiltons car breaking down, i strongly disagree.

What about something in Rosberg's data that could have allowed Hamilton to get decent starts?

The breaking down is the most obvious source of points loss, but even a single additional pole position successfully converted to a win would have been enough to give Hamilton the title. With such a fine margin, how can you say there's no chance he could have found something in Rosberg's data to regain those points?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Really. Unless there was something in Rosbergs data that could have stopped Hamiltons car breaking down, i strongly disagree.

What about something in Rosberg's data that could have allowed Hamilton to get decent starts?

The breaking down is the most obvious source of points loss, but even a single additional pole position successfully converted to a win would have been enough to give Hamilton the title. With such a fine margin, how can you say there's no chance he could have found something in Rosberg's data to regain those points?


I didnt think the starts had anything to do with data? Hamilton suggested that the start system was erratic and did something different every time even when he carried out the procedure exactly the same?

No doubt Hamilton lost points because of driver errors.
I disagree he lost out by not studying Rosbergs data, lets face it he probably did study it lol.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Really. Unless there was something in Rosbergs data that could have stopped Hamiltons car breaking down, i strongly disagree.

What about something in Rosberg's data that could have allowed Hamilton to get decent starts?

The breaking down is the most obvious source of points loss, but even a single additional pole position successfully converted to a win would have been enough to give Hamilton the title. With such a fine margin, how can you say there's no chance he could have found something in Rosberg's data to regain those points?


I didnt think the starts had anything to do with data? Hamilton suggested that the start system was erratic and did something different every time even when he carried out the procedure exactly the same?

No doubt Hamilton lost points because of driver errors.
I disagree he lost out by not studying Rosbergs data, lets face it he probably did study it lol.


I don't know if it would be on the data but Nico came up with a different start procedure after Hungary or Germany and it worked in dealing with the tricky system.

Lewis did try it in the factory after Japan and tweaked it further and it was fine after that but I guess you can argue he could of looked at what Nico was doing sooner.

Don't think that was what Alonso was referring to though, I think it was just a cheeky pop. To be honest I've half been expecting one from Alonso after Lewis's pop at Seb and Alonso about the No.1 demands and not wanting a disruptive atmosphere at Mercedes at that Mercedes event in the winter.

It's been coming.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Maybe alonsos english is even worse than i thought.
Lewis didnt say he didnt use nicos data. Heck if you think about it; if someone is using your data why the heck not would you not return the favor and use his? Im pretty certain lewis looked at nicos data at various points of the last 3 years. Again, he just thinks it shouldnt be allowed. Thats all he said.

Now could data sharing have helped lewis get better starts? Maybe or maybe not. It is impossible to tell from the outside. Alonso is just taking a cheap shot at lewis here. Nothing more.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:00 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Now could data sharing have helped lewis get better starts? Maybe or maybe not. It is impossible to tell from the outside. Alonso is just taking a cheap shot at lewis here. Nothing more.

Pretty much true. But then Lewis' endless insistence that Alonso and Vettel demand priority in their teams is just a cheap shot, too.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:26 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Now could data sharing have helped lewis get better starts? Maybe or maybe not. It is impossible to tell from the outside. Alonso is just taking a cheap shot at lewis here. Nothing more.

Pretty much true. But then Lewis' endless insistence that Alonso and Vettel demand priority in their teams is just a cheap shot, too.

Massa and Webber would like a word.
'Filipe, Alonso is faster than you'.
'Not bad for a No.2 driver'.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
In keeping with the theme of this thread, it seems Bottas does not want to share data with Hamilton. He doesn't think it's ideal. But does that make him.....what are some of the things Hamilton has been accused of.......oh yes....selfish....arrogant....afraid of his teammate......not a team player?
Believe it all not all these drivers want real competition and would all dislike it when their rival is being spoon fed basic driving tips. Where is the competition in that? Hamilton was asked a hypothetical question and gave a hypothetical answer and everyone loses their rag.....
http://readmotorsport.com/2017/02/24/bo ... disappear/

who's lost their rag, exactly?

Are you serious? We have 5 pages of argument over a hypothetical answer given by Hamilton to a hypothetical question. Need I say more?

well, yes, because people discussing what Hamilton is saying, even if some disagree with it, is nowhere near the same as everyone losing their rag, as you claim. Seems somewhat hysterical to me, so I'd like to know how you arrived at that conclusion

Just look at the headline from the original poster for starters. That right there is an attempt to misdirect the conversation to suit the OP's narrative. At no point did Hamilton imply or mention Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:18 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Now could data sharing have helped lewis get better starts? Maybe or maybe not. It is impossible to tell from the outside. Alonso is just taking a cheap shot at lewis here. Nothing more.

Pretty much true. But then Lewis' endless insistence that Alonso and Vettel demand priority in their teams is just a cheap shot, too.

Massa and Webber would like a word.
'Filipe, Alonso is faster than you'.
'Not bad for a No.2 driver'.

Kovalainen would like a word about his fueling strategies, then.

Nobody's denying that Massa and Webber were #2 drivers. But Lewis' claim is that Alonso and Vettel insist on having a #2 and won't drive against someone competitive, a claim for which there is no proof. And he keeps repeating it in the context of how he never has #2 drivers - a verifiably false claim, see Kovi - and that makes him better than the two of them. Ergo, it is meaningless sniping at them.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:24 am 
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Exediron wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Now could data sharing have helped lewis get better starts? Maybe or maybe not. It is impossible to tell from the outside. Alonso is just taking a cheap shot at lewis here. Nothing more.

Pretty much true. But then Lewis' endless insistence that Alonso and Vettel demand priority in their teams is just a cheap shot, too.

Massa and Webber would like a word.
'Filipe, Alonso is faster than you'.
'Not bad for a No.2 driver'.

Kovalainen would like a word about his fueling strategies, then.

Nobody's denying that Massa and Webber were #2 drivers. But Lewis' claim is that Alonso and Vettel insist on having a #2 and won't drive against someone competitive, a claim for which there is no proof. And he keeps repeating it in the context of how he never has #2 drivers - a verifiably false claim, see Kovi - and that makes him better than the two of them. Ergo, it is meaningless sniping at them.


And how many seasons Kovi spent again at McLaren ? 2 (TWO)

Fisichella - Piquet Jr.- Massa . How many years are those in total?

Had Hamilton had a lesser teammate willing to see his gearbox seal broken or instructed to stay behind because Lewis is nursing his tyres(at the beginning of the race mind you.. like in Monaco 2012 with Massa) for his benefit, he could have won not only the 2010 WDC but also the 2012 WDC(with better reliability) at McLaren.

It is a known fact(Ferrari guys surely know it, and Smedley did also confirm it) that Alonso ask for #1 status. Only his time running out has made him offer himself left and right and swallow his pride.

The irony is that Hamilton was willing years ago to drive for Ferrari(and RedBull) but guess why it didn't happen? But now people want Alonso to have the 2nd Mercedes seat?

_
As for Seb, while I also respect his talent, I have no sympathy for the situation he finds himself in.
If Raikkonen still has a career and a salary(I am sorry for his fans) it is because of him. He could have pushed for new blood but he chose his old friend because he was sure to beat him if not with speed, with questionable strategies for the #2 guy Ferrari's style.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:36 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
The irony is that Hamilton was willing years ago to drive for Ferrari(and RedBull) but guess why it didn't happen? But now people want Alonso to have the 2nd Mercedes seat?

It didn't happen for the same reason Alonso didn't get hired by Mercedes - the teams didn't want to deal with two alpha drivers in the same car. What exactly is your point? Fans wanted to see Lewis go up against Vettel or Alonso then, just as they wanted to see Alonso go up against Hamilton this time. But the fans don't make that decision, and the teams have all learned well that there is little to be gained by putting two top drivers in the same team.

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