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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:37 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Sly remark by Alonso :lol:

Quote:
Hamilton said in a recent interview, “I go out, do my laps, do all my homework, [and] the other guy can see everything. I have asked my team. I don’t want to see my teammate’s [data].”

When asked about data sharing within the team, Alonso told Sky Sport, on the occasion of the launch of the McLaren MCL32, “[Hamilton] said many times that he was learning from the data.”

“Mercedes are one of those teams that are using more of the data between the engineers to help the drivers, so he said something that was a little bit strange.”

“If he was watching more data from Rosberg last year, maybe he would have won the championship!” said Alonso.


http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02/25/ ... s-strange/

Yeah I'm sure looking at Rosberg's data would have stopped the 3 engine blow ups that he had, methinks that Alonso would enjoy it on here? ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:42 am 
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Was going to be an edit, but then pokerman posted so I'm making a new post instead...

Back on the #2 topic, what about Button and Vandoorne? Button certainly wasn't treated like a #2 driver, and there are absolutely no accounts of Alonso trying to make him into one. It seems highly unlikely McLaren is hyping Stoffel up so much just to make him a #2 either, whereas many people believe Bottas was picked because he's not a threat to Lewis. So where does that leave the 'Alonso demands a #2' driver theory? Are you sure it isn't just that Ferrari demands a #2 driver?

Lewis clearly wants to give an impression of himself as this super-macho guy who wants to race a manual transmission, no aero, no data sharing, fights his teammates on equal terms, etc... Maybe it's accurate, who knows (although if so he's in the wrong sport). But when he goes out of his way to bring up the fact that he doesn't ask for a subservient driver - then adds 'unlike Alonso or Vettel' - it's just sniping at his rivals.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:43 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Maybe alonsos english is even worse than i thought.
Lewis didnt say he didnt use nicos data. Heck if you think about it; if someone is using your data why the heck not would you not return the favor and use his? Im pretty certain lewis looked at nicos data at various points of the last 3 years. Again, he just thinks it shouldnt be allowed. Thats all he said.

Now could data sharing have helped lewis get better starts? Maybe or maybe not. It is impossible to tell from the outside. Alonso is just taking a cheap shot at lewis here. Nothing more.

Yeah exactly, Hamilton never inferred that he didn't look at Rosberg's data, if Rosberg is looking at his data then he's foolish not to do likewise back.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Yeah I'm sure looking at Rosberg's data would have stopped the 3 engine blow ups that he had, methinks that Alonso would enjoy it on here? ;)

Much like Alonso's 2012, Lewis came close enough that there are multiple factors that could have turned the tables and given him the championship. Yes, it's easy to say that in 2012 Alonso would have been champion if Grosjean hadn't wiped him out - but does that mean there weren't any other ways he could have found the points, mistakes he made that could have been prevented? There certainly were, and the same is true for Lewis.

Yes, the mechanical failures were the reason his other mistakes mattered, but without them he would be world champion now. It's silly to suggest that there's nothing Lewis could have done better on his own, and since one of those areas is something Rosberg was demonstrably better at - starts - I think it's very likely Lewis could have learned something from him. By all accounts in fact he did, but only too late in the season for it to matter.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
The irony is that Hamilton was willing years ago to drive for Ferrari(and RedBull) but guess why it didn't happen? But now people want Alonso to have the 2nd Mercedes seat?

It didn't happen for the same reason Alonso didn't get hired by Mercedes - the teams didn't want to deal with two alpha drivers in the same car. What exactly is your point? Fans wanted to see Lewis go up against Vettel or Alonso then, just as they wanted to see Alonso go up against Hamilton this time. But the fans don't make that decision, and the teams have all learned well that there is little to be gained by putting two top drivers in the same team.

Alonso and Vettel were both not available for this year but are available for 2018, I guess you might have missed the fact that Bottas has only a 1 year contract, there might be a reason for that?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:30 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Was going to be an edit, but then pokerman posted so I'm making a new post instead...

Back on the #2 topic, what about Button and Vandoorne? Button certainly wasn't treated like a #2 driver, and there are absolutely no accounts of Alonso trying to make him into one. It seems highly unlikely McLaren is hyping Stoffel up so much just to make him a #2 either, whereas many people believe Bottas was picked because he's not a threat to Lewis. So where does that leave the 'Alonso demands a #2' driver theory? Are you sure it isn't just that Ferrari demands a #2 driver?

Lewis clearly wants to give an impression of himself as this super-macho guy who wants to race a manual transmission, no aero, no data sharing, fights his teammates on equal terms, etc... Maybe it's accurate, who knows (although if so he's in the wrong sport). But when he goes out of his way to bring up the fact that he doesn't ask for a subservient driver - then adds 'unlike Alonso or Vettel' - it's just sniping at his rivals.


You would say that only if you don't know the guy.
He has been like this since the first race of his F1 career.

When it rains, it is him who ask Charlie to start the race.
If he was in Alonso's car in 2010 in Germany he would have find his way past or "gently" pushed Massa off the track without saying anything to his team via Radio. No question about it.
And what about Petrov in Abu Dhabi 2010? that would have been a do or die situation for him.

His super machismo is exactly the reason his career has not been destroyed in 2007 and he doesn't have to resemble Alonso/Vettel/Ricciardo for you to see him as genuine.

Listen to what he says from 00:27 to 00:59 seconds in this video to better understand who Lewis Hamilton really is and his attitude has not changed one bit.


He is not perfect.. he has thousand of flaws but he seems to thrive in adversity and considers himself superhuman without saying it. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:05 am 
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I have to agree, Lewis got quite good at "pushing" Massa off track back then... At least on that point, we can agree.
;)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:31 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I'm sure looking at Rosberg's data would have stopped the 3 engine blow ups that he had, methinks that Alonso would enjoy it on here? ;)

Much like Alonso's 2012, Lewis came close enough that there are multiple factors that could have turned the tables and given him the championship. Yes, it's easy to say that in 2012 Alonso would have been champion if Grosjean hadn't wiped him out - but does that mean there weren't any other ways he could have found the points, mistakes he made that could have been prevented? There certainly were, and the same is true for Lewis.

Yes, the mechanical failures were the reason his other mistakes mattered, but without them he would be world champion now. It's silly to suggest that there's nothing Lewis could have done better on his own, and since one of those areas is something Rosberg was demonstrably better at - starts - I think it's very likely Lewis could have learned something from him. By all accounts in fact he did, but only too late in the season for it to matter.

By your logic we must then conclude that Button beat Alonso in 2015. Button then deserves to be recognised as the superior driver to Alonso because he managed to capitalise when the McLaren Honda suffered multiple mechanical failures. Why should we have different standards for one Lewis Hamilton?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
In keeping with the theme of this thread, it seems Bottas does not want to share data with Hamilton. He doesn't think it's ideal. But does that make him.....what are some of the things Hamilton has been accused of.......oh yes....selfish....arrogant....afraid of his teammate......not a team player?
Believe it all not all these drivers want real competition and would all dislike it when their rival is being spoon fed basic driving tips. Where is the competition in that? Hamilton was asked a hypothetical question and gave a hypothetical answer and everyone loses their rag.....
http://readmotorsport.com/2017/02/24/bo ... disappear/

who's lost their rag, exactly?

Are you serious? We have 5 pages of argument over a hypothetical answer given by Hamilton to a hypothetical question. Need I say more?

well, yes, because people discussing what Hamilton is saying, even if some disagree with it, is nowhere near the same as everyone losing their rag, as you claim. Seems somewhat hysterical to me, so I'd like to know how you arrived at that conclusion

Just look at the headline from the original poster for starters. That right there is an attempt to misdirect the conversation to suit the OP's narrative. At no point did Hamilton imply or mention Bottas.

That's someone losing their rag to you? :?

It's no wonder things can get heated on here when people can interpret even the most innocuous comment as such an extreme viewpoint.

Lewis doesn't want to share date. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. See where I'm going with this?

What you've highlighted is pretty hard to define as someone losing their rag. Your reaction, however...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:41 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Now could data sharing have helped lewis get better starts? Maybe or maybe not. It is impossible to tell from the outside. Alonso is just taking a cheap shot at lewis here. Nothing more.

Pretty much true. But then Lewis' endless insistence that Alonso and Vettel demand priority in their teams is just a cheap shot, too.

Massa and Webber would like a word.
'Filipe, Alonso is faster than you'.
'Not bad for a No.2 driver'.

I hope you never serve on a jury, because deducting that Vettel and Alonso demand priority from those two samples of evidence is pretty out there


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:58 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
By your logic we must then conclude that Button beat Alonso in 2015. Button then deserves to be recognised as the superior driver to Alonso because he managed to capitalise when the McLaren Honda suffered multiple mechanical failures. Why should we have different standards for one Lewis Hamilton?

That would be true, if I ever said Rosberg was superior to Hamilton... :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Zoue wrote:
who's lost their rag, exactly?

Are you serious? We have 5 pages of argument over a hypothetical answer given by Hamilton to a hypothetical question. Need I say more?

well, yes, because people discussing what Hamilton is saying, even if some disagree with it, is nowhere near the same as everyone losing their rag, as you claim. Seems somewhat hysterical to me, so I'd like to know how you arrived at that conclusion

Just look at the headline from the original poster for starters. That right there is an attempt to misdirect the conversation to suit the OP's narrative. At no point did Hamilton imply or mention Bottas.

That's someone losing their rag to you? :?

It's no wonder things can get heated on here when people can interpret even the most innocuous comment as such an extreme viewpoint.

Lewis doesn't want to share date. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. See where I'm going with this?

What you've highlighted is pretty hard to define as someone losing their rag. Your reaction, however...

Yes I´m trying to think of an scenario where "Hamilton calls for end to data sharing between team-mates in F1" yet has no issues in doing so with Bottas...
Don´t know what it means to lose one´s rag exactly but I won´t lose any sleep if someone on the internet thinks that´s what I´m doing :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Data sharing: does anyone know how Schumacher and Rosberg worked/cooperated as team-mates 2010-2012? My 'thinking' is that Nico must have picked up so much from Michael and his data, but I have no evidence. Anyone?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:22 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Data sharing: does anyone know how Schumacher and Rosberg worked/cooperated as team-mates 2010-2012? My 'thinking' is that Nico must have picked up so much from Michael and his data, but I have no evidence. Anyone?


https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/ ... -mercedes/


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:26 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Data sharing: does anyone know how Schumacher and Rosberg worked/cooperated as team-mates 2010-2012? My 'thinking' is that Nico must have picked up so much from Michael and his data, but I have no evidence. Anyone?

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/ ... -mercedes/

I'm a bit mystified as to how that's an answer to POB's question. We all know Rosberg beat Schumi - the question was about how much Rosberg learned from him in the process, which that article does not address at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Data sharing: does anyone know how Schumacher and Rosberg worked/cooperated as team-mates 2010-2012? My 'thinking' is that Nico must have picked up so much from Michael and his data, but I have no evidence. Anyone?

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/ ... -mercedes/

I'm a bit mystified as to how that's an answer to POB's question. We all know Rosberg beat Schumi - the question was about how much Rosberg learned from him in the process, which that article does not address at all.


Generally, drivers are trying to study data to go faster. Mostly, Rosberg was faster than Schumacher, so the thinking that Nico must have picked up so much from Michael and his data seems less likely to be the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:42 am 
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Bet that changes if Bottas does better lol


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:59 pm 
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I think MS edge was the ability to pound around a track and shave away at his times rather than a sort of instinct.
He never seemed to be as on top of things with out the unlimited testing.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:25 pm 
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rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:49 am 
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Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:31 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!

No, I don't agree. Lewis asked his team not to share data, according to the report. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. Therefore it's a perfectly logical conclusion that Lewis doesn't want to share his data with Bottas. In fact, it's pretty much the only conclusion


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:07 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!


It colours the thread for sure. Lewis is talking about the sport in general talking through his own prism of his own team, because that's what he knows.

It then becomes (just) a Lewis-Bottas thing, which is myopic. It's a holistic Formula 1 thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:48 am 
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Invade wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!


It colours the thread for sure. Lewis is talking about the sport in general talking through his own prism of his own team, because that's what he knows.

It then becomes (just) a Lewis-Bottas thing, which is myopic. It's a holistic Formula 1 thing.


So then what was "I've asked my team..." supposed to mean?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:01 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!

Oh you at it again. It seems you're the one with the agenda here.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!

Oh you at it again. It seems you're the one with the agenda here.


Are u trying to convince anyone that you arent a hamilton hater?


Come on man.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:22 pm 
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I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Not that I need to defend myself but FIY I don't hate any of the drivers. Enough with the personal attacks already?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!

No, I don't agree. Lewis asked his team not to share data, according to the report. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. Therefore it's a perfectly logical conclusion that Lewis doesn't want to share his data with Bottas. In fact, it's pretty much the only conclusion


No it is not.

Has bottas said that lewis is forbidding him to see his data? Has anyone on the team said that? Do you think lewis is dumb enough that he thinks he can stop data sharing at mercedes?

You are just distorting a common lewis slip of a tongue comment that shouldnt been taken literally. Its obvious what he meant by that.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:56 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!

No, I don't agree. Lewis asked his team not to share data, according to the report. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. Therefore it's a perfectly logical conclusion that Lewis doesn't want to share his data with Bottas. In fact, it's pretty much the only conclusion


No it is not.

Has bottas said that lewis is forbidding him to see his data? Has anyone on the team said that? Do you think lewis is dumb enough that he thinks he can stop data sharing at mercedes?

You are just distorting a common lewis slip of a tongue comment that shouldnt been taken literally. Its obvious what he meant by that.

Yes it is. I can do this all day.

No-one's distorting anything, since they are Lewis' own words, but it is telling that there are those who are trying to blow it up out of proportion and make out it's some kind of attack on him. Why you feel the need to jump up and defend him at even the vaguest slight only you can answer, I suppose.

How can it be a slip of the tongue when he specifically said he was going to ask Mercedes to stop sharing data? And why is that a position that needs defending by attacking the poster who reports it? Take it as it is, a discussion point, and stop trying to turn it into a battleground.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:

This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!

No, I don't agree. Lewis asked his team not to share data, according to the report. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. Therefore it's a perfectly logical conclusion that Lewis doesn't want to share his data with Bottas. In fact, it's pretty much the only conclusion


No it is not.

Has bottas said that lewis is forbidding him to see his data? Has anyone on the team said that? Do you think lewis is dumb enough that he thinks he can stop data sharing at mercedes?

You are just distorting a common lewis slip of a tongue comment that shouldnt been taken literally. Its obvious what he meant by that.

Yes it is. I can do this all day.

No-one's distorting anything, since they are Lewis' own words, but it is telling that there are those who are trying to blow it up out of proportion and make out it's some kind of attack on him. Why you feel the need to jump up and defend him at even the vaguest slight only you can answer, I suppose.

How can it be a slip of the tongue when he specifically said he was going to ask Mercedes to stop sharing data? And why is that a position that needs defending by attacking the poster who reports it? Take it as it is, a discussion point, and stop trying to turn it into a battleground.

The ones blowing things out of proportion are you and others who tripped over themselves to suggest that he was seeking preferential treatment (a completely nonsensical notion). Especially considering the fact that Lewis specifically said he meant as an idea for all of F1 and not as something he wanted just for himself and his team.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The ones blowing things out of proportion are you and others who tripped over themselves to suggest that he was seeking preferential treatment (a completely nonsensical notion). Especially considering the fact that Lewis specifically said he meant as an idea for all of F1 and not as something he wanted just for himself and his team.

Who said that?

I recall people saying it was hypocritical of Lewis to push for banning data now that he's at a point in his career where he would benefit more from the ban than his teammate, but I can't recall anyone implying he was saying he should get to see Bottas' data but not vice-versa.

As for the implication that Lewis wants to gain a competitive advantage by banning data sharing, that's obvious and he even directly says so himself. So where's the implication of preferential treatment that people tripped over themselves to make? An example would be nice.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The ones blowing things out of proportion are you and others who tripped over themselves to suggest that he was seeking preferential treatment (a completely nonsensical notion). Especially considering the fact that Lewis specifically said he meant as an idea for all of F1 and not as something he wanted just for himself and his team.

Who said that?

I recall people saying it was hypocritical of Lewis to push for banning data now that he's at a point in his career where he would benefit more from the ban than his teammate, but I can't recall anyone implying he was saying he should get to see Bottas' data but not vice-versa.

As for the implication that Lewis wants to gain a competitive advantage by banning data sharing, that's obvious and he even directly says so himself. So where's the implication of preferential treatment that people tripped over themselves to make? An example would be nice.

Read the very first reply and you'll see someone saying that it's Lewis asking to handicap Bottas


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No, I don't agree. Lewis asked his team not to share data, according to the report. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. Therefore it's a perfectly logical conclusion that Lewis doesn't want to share his data with Bottas. In fact, it's pretty much the only conclusion


No it is not.

Has bottas said that lewis is forbidding him to see his data? Has anyone on the team said that? Do you think lewis is dumb enough that he thinks he can stop data sharing at mercedes?

You are just distorting a common lewis slip of a tongue comment that shouldnt been taken literally. Its obvious what he meant by that.

Yes it is. I can do this all day.

No-one's distorting anything, since they are Lewis' own words, but it is telling that there are those who are trying to blow it up out of proportion and make out it's some kind of attack on him. Why you feel the need to jump up and defend him at even the vaguest slight only you can answer, I suppose.

How can it be a slip of the tongue when he specifically said he was going to ask Mercedes to stop sharing data? And why is that a position that needs defending by attacking the poster who reports it? Take it as it is, a discussion point, and stop trying to turn it into a battleground.

The ones blowing things out of proportion are you and others who tripped over themselves to suggest that he was seeking preferential treatment (a completely nonsensical notion). Especially considering the fact that Lewis specifically said he meant as an idea for all of F1 and not as something he wanted just for himself and his team.

It's not the first time you've accused me of something that isn't true. It would be nice if you wouldn't just throw out blanket accusations. To save you the research, I've not said he's looking for preferential treatment. Which makes the above a strawman.

That aside, this conversation started when the OP was attacked for "having an agenda," when all he did was share a link and highlight where Lewis stated that he would ask the team not to share data with his team mate. I don't see why people think the OP deserves an attack for this and it seems a bit of a hysterical over-reaction to me. Disagree by all means, but why the ad-hominem attacks?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:22 pm 
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If I am Mercedes team boss, I want Bottas to be able to see whatever data and setups etc he wants. I also want Hamilton to be able to do the same.

If the championship is sewn up between my two guys, and the WCC is sorted, then maybe I allow this kind of thing. I get why Hamilton might not want to share, but if I'm the boss then I think I want the team doing the best it can over keeping my top guy happy. In fairness to Hamilton, he's just said he doesn't want to. He didn't say he won't or he'll need to be forced to or will kick up a huge stink about it. Fair enough in my book.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No, I don't agree. Lewis asked his team not to share data, according to the report. Lewis' team mate is Bottas. Therefore it's a perfectly logical conclusion that Lewis doesn't want to share his data with Bottas. In fact, it's pretty much the only conclusion


No it is not.

Has bottas said that lewis is forbidding him to see his data? Has anyone on the team said that? Do you think lewis is dumb enough that he thinks he can stop data sharing at mercedes?

You are just distorting a common lewis slip of a tongue comment that shouldnt been taken literally. Its obvious what he meant by that.

Yes it is. I can do this all day.

No-one's distorting anything, since they are Lewis' own words, but it is telling that there are those who are trying to blow it up out of proportion and make out it's some kind of attack on him. Why you feel the need to jump up and defend him at even the vaguest slight only you can answer, I suppose.

How can it be a slip of the tongue when he specifically said he was going to ask Mercedes to stop sharing data? And why is that a position that needs defending by attacking the poster who reports it? Take it as it is, a discussion point, and stop trying to turn it into a battleground.

The ones blowing things out of proportion are you and others who tripped over themselves to suggest that he was seeking preferential treatment (a completely nonsensical notion). Especially considering the fact that Lewis specifically said he meant as an idea for all of F1 and not as something he wanted just for himself and his team.

It's not the first time you've accused me of something that isn't true. It would be nice if you wouldn't just throw out blanket accusations. To save you the research, I've not said he's looking for preferential treatment. Which makes the above a strawman.

That aside, this conversation started when the OP was attacked for "having an agenda," when all he did was share a link and highlight where Lewis stated that he would ask the team not to share data with his team mate. I don't see why people think the OP deserves an attack for this and it seems a bit of a hysterical over-reaction to me. Disagree by all means, but why the ad-hominem attacks?

What ad-hominem attack? Are you saying that Blinky didn't accuse him of seeking preferential treatment? Because he blatantly did in the very first response to the OP. No one is attacking you. Instead of playing the victim why don't you actually just be honest for once?

At the end of the day, if almost anyone else had made the comment, we would discuss the merits of the idea. Would drivers not sharing data be good for the sport? Would it improve the show? Is it even doable? How would you police it? etc. Because the quote comes from Lewis Hamilton though, we are not discussing the idea, we are discussing Lewis Hamilton. THAT is an ad-hominem attack and it is just unfortunate that this is not a one-off thing but a pattern in this forum.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:18 pm 
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On the plus side, clickbait does stir the pot. I did watch a lot of this thread in pure unadulterated curious and unemotional fascination in its earlier days. Plenty of intrigue here.

People do jump quickly when reading just the words and not investigating the context more thoroughly. The difference between reading and listening is often vast, and revealing of one's own potential biases.

I do it myself all the time with various F1 articles, like the one on Merc maybe hiding an engine problem. I've already responded to it as though it's fact, although did ask if there are any further confirmations. Pretty hard to avoid doing this kind of thing (for me).

...Certainly interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:40 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Especially considering the fact that Lewis specifically said he meant as an idea for all of F1 and not as something he wanted just for himself and his team.


So then what was "I've asked my team..." supposed to mean?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:47 pm 
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mds wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Especially considering the fact that Lewis specifically said he meant as an idea for all of F1 and not as something he wanted just for himself and his team.


So then what was "I've asked my team..." supposed to mean?

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/187 ... od-f1-fans

It's easy to get lost in cherry-picked excerpts. Why don't you read what he actually said when asked to explain his thoughts on it and then draw a conclusion.

When asked at the launch of Mercedes' 2017 challenger whether that meant he just wanted the team's data to be focused on his own performance, he said: "No, that's not my point. What I referred to is that it's cool for the engineers and the team to use it to continue to move forward - that's very important for us - and for them to share the information of the car engineering wise to advance the performance of the car. That's very important."

"What I refer to is me as an individual. My job when I arrive at the track is to be the best, get out there and exploit the car in the best way I can and I feel. But the way that the sport is now, whoever your teammate is you get to see their data and compare your data to it and you see if there are improvements to someone else's driving style you can adapt to it."

"I just feel that to make it harder for us drivers, they should remove that so we have to rely on our own data and compare your own laps to your own laps, and before you go out there you decide to try a different line in the corner - it may or may not work. There are going to be weekends when you get it right and there are going to be weekends when you just don't know where the time is, but you can't find out and the other guy does [know]."

"I think that just makes it more of a challenge for a driver, and ultimately I think the better driver the more he will be able to get there faster or find something new faster than the others. That's really my point.
"


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:53 pm 
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mds wrote:
Invade wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Invade wrote:
rodH wrote:
Kind of dumb. I race karts and me and my teammate have the exact same year chassis', motors, etc.... We share data regarding tuning and set up as well as getting the same or similar instructions from our driving coach. You can always learn from each other to make the team as a whole, faster. Lewis must feel he has ALL the info he needs and doesn't want to share it. incredibly arrogant and selfish and a bit naive.


This has nothing to with Hamilton vs Bottas. The thread is titled incorrectly and is pure click bait. It's about the whole field not sharing data in some capacity and not about Hamilton not just wanting Bottas to see his data, or himself to see Bottas'.

The OP had an agenda that's obvious to see!


It colours the thread for sure. Lewis is talking about the sport in general talking through his own prism of his own team, because that's what he knows.

It then becomes (just) a Lewis-Bottas thing, which is myopic. It's a holistic Formula 1 thing.


So then what was "I've asked my team..." supposed to mean?


It means what it says. Obviously, Hamilton hasn't personally gone to other teams asking them to also stop sharing data, so the way he puts it would be detrimental to Mercedes as a whole assuming other teams continue to share data. None of this is being denied though (at least from me). All I really said earlier is that he's making a wider point and so it's not JUST ( - important qualifier which I forgot to use earlier because I assumed what I was getting at would be clear) ... just.. a Hamilton-Bottas thing. Lewis was explaining his own point of view from the prism of his own team. However, the way the thread was presented shone a light on the specific dynamic which preponderated over the wider point of discussion that Hamilton was really trying to bring up, albeit not in the clearest way given your reminder. Then we can sit back and see what direction people want to swing for.

I just don't think Lewis' idea can be successfully policed.

(BTW for the record people should know that I'm not really criticising the thread creator per se as it's up to people how to take what's presented and the OP did a great job in presenting a topic and offering source material, I'm just pointing out how I personally see the thread and the direction that the thread is likely to take the discussion in. Really like the OP in general for his posting and contributions on the forum - like him a lot. I'm a big fan of many "clickbait threads" and make them myself -- of course we might disagree on whether it's clickbait or not ;))


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
As for the implication that Lewis wants to gain a competitive advantage by banning data sharing, that's obvious and he even directly says so himself. So where's the implication of preferential treatment that people tripped over themselves to make? An example would be nice.

Read the very first reply and you'll see someone saying that it's Lewis asking to handicap Bottas

I grant you that it certainly could be read that way, and quite possibly was even meant that way. But Blinky's post is not representative of how most people responded to the thread, so focusing on it to the exclusion of all else and painting every with the same brush is hardly productive.

Even at that, I don't think he was really saying Lewis wants preferential treatment - Bottas would lose the ability to see Lewis' data, but Lewis would also lose the ability to see his. That's equal treatment. Many people - myself somewhat included - think this arrangement would benefit Lewis more, but it's still equal treatment. The only way for that lack of data sharing to result in preferential treatment for Hamilton would be if he got to see Bottas' data but Bottas didn't get to see his, which is not something Lewis has implied he wants.

Lewis sees himself as a more naturally talented driver than anyone else (most top drivers do), and as such he almost certainly believes he would benefit from the end of data sharing. But that's the only implication I would make - I wouldn't imply he wants to have access to data Bottas wouldn't.

But I do think it's hypocritical of him. He learned from Alonso's data (yes, not just his setups!) when he was starting out, and now he doesn't want anybody to do the same to him. That's not exactly fair.

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