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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:09 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
Massive hypocrite.

He was more than happy to get Alonso's data back in 2007

Massive nothing. Alonso also used rookie Hamilton's data in 2007!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:15 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Back on topic...

In the abstract, I agree with Hamilton; drivers should succeed or fail based on their skill, not their ability to mimic each other. Realistically however, there's no way to put the genii back in the bottle, and there's also no question that data sharing leads to better drivers. From a team perspective - and Hamilton often seems to lose sight of the fact that F1 is ultimately a team sport - having both drivers sharing data and improving is a no-brainer.

BTW, could someone give a source on all the claims that Alonso made use of Hamilton's data in 2007? I've never heard that before, and I'm interested to see where people are getting it from. Certainly the fact that Hamilton copied Alonso's setups until Hungary is common knowledge, but what data of Lewis' did Fernando benefit from?

There is that former McLaren engineer who is now a pundit on Sky F1 Weekly who mentioned it on one of the shows.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:28 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
This of course assumes that driving styles are the same amongst drivers or that there is only one "best" way to drive any one corner or track.

Some prefer oversteer some under steer. The way a driver who likes a pointy front will attack a corner differently than one who steers more with the throttle. While there are many corners where 2 such drivers will take it the same there won't be much to be learned from studying another drivers telemetry.


There is a heck of a lot each driver can benefit from by studying the other driver. I am an avid sim racer heavily involved in iRacing. One support program is "iSpeed" telemetry collection everyone shares. I can study a faster driver, and on close examination I can learn "if I take it a little deeper into the corner, then turn later, I can gain X amount of speed over my current method"

From my own personal data.
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I need to clarify setups. The team start with a car design, theoretically fast. They then construct it, test it, refine it. All of that is engineering stuff, a lot of hard work by a lot of people. The driver is allowed only certain ranges in adjustment, basically to deliver a car that he is comfortable with and acts predictably. They all drive their cars at the ultimate limit, so those tiny tweaks are important for them to be able to push the car with confidence.


Fully agree! :thumbup: And I wish people were less dismissive of sim racing, it's obviously not the same thing as real racing due to absence of lateral forces, but the concepts that apply to sim racing apply to real racing too, as that's where sim racing drew its resources from. Telemetry of one driver will indeed benefit the other, not to the extent of making the latter copy the former, but rather as a measure of what is possible to do on the track. If someone's braking earlier than me, it's possible for me to do it as well if I adapt my driving to the new situation.

The goal of car setup is to make the car as predictable as possible, and the goal of the constructor is to design a chassis as balanced as possible. Different drivers will like different cars and will require different adjustments. The 911 built its fame on its uniqueness as well as being a capable race car. It's radically different from driving a front-engined car, which in turn handles differently if power is sent to all wheels instead of only the rear ones. Keke Rosberg famously didn't feel comfortable driving the McLaren in the season he and Prost were teammates and the car was designed around Prost, but he was by no means a slow driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:32 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BTW, could someone give a source on all the claims that Alonso made use of Hamilton's data in 2007? I've never heard that before, and I'm interested to see where people are getting it from. Certainly the fact that Hamilton copied Alonso's setups until Hungary is common knowledge, but what data of Lewis' did Fernando benefit from?

There is that former McLaren engineer who is now a pundit on Sky F1 Weekly who mentioned it on one of the shows.

Since I'm an American and I don't watch Sky Sports at all, which McLaren engineer and is there somewhere I can see it online?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:53 am 
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Exediron wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BTW, could someone give a source on all the claims that Alonso made use of Hamilton's data in 2007? I've never heard that before, and I'm interested to see where people are getting it from. Certainly the fact that Hamilton copied Alonso's setups until Hungary is common knowledge, but what data of Lewis' did Fernando benefit from?

There is that former McLaren engineer who is now a pundit on Sky F1 Weekly who mentioned it on one of the shows.

Since I'm an American and I don't watch Sky Sports at all, which McLaren engineer and is there somewhere I can see it online?

Marc Priestly, but I don't know how you can watch old sky F1 shows in the US.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BTW, could someone give a source on all the claims that Alonso made use of Hamilton's data in 2007? I've never heard that before, and I'm interested to see where people are getting it from. Certainly the fact that Hamilton copied Alonso's setups until Hungary is common knowledge, but what data of Lewis' did Fernando benefit from?

There is that former McLaren engineer who is now a pundit on Sky F1 Weekly who mentioned it on one of the shows.

Since I'm an American and I don't watch Sky Sports at all, which McLaren engineer and is there somewhere I can see it online?

Marc Priestly, but I don't know how you can watch old sky F1 shows in the US.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:20 am 
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Blake wrote:
While much of this forum may be "driver-centric", the teams are not. If you want it to be that way they need to eliminate the two car rule... then the teams can focus everything on that one driver. Until then the teams must focus on what is best for the team and remind the drivers that they are just part of the team.

Of course, within the current rules this is not an option, as you would lose a competitive advantage if you are not doing something other teams are. Clearly as a team sport this is something the teams are unlikely to consider on their own.

But, given it is recognized that the car is the major contributor in terms of performance, if you did want to address that, would you not agree that one option could be to prevent drivers sharing data? Most likely racing data such as driving lines, brake points etc. but perhaps even set-up data. I personally feel a ban on sharing set-up data would be a step too far, but that would be up for debate. It is without doubt, one option that could be considered to place greater emphasis on the differential in driver’s ability. How you would go about enforcing that among the teams is another question altogether.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:15 am 
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lamo wrote:
The downside is also when you get a Hamilton-Rosberg type battle they both end up holding back 0.2-0.3 all weekend for the final run in qualifying so neither probably go as quickly as they might have if they had both openly shared throughout the weekend up to that point. That is fine when its a two horse race, but if other cars are involved it could see the Mercedes or any other team lose a few positions during the season. Just the price you pay for having two relatively equal drivers.

It makes you wonder how less dominant some drivers would have been in the past with open telemetry. For example at the first race in Malaysia 2014, Hamilton was 0.6-0.7 per lap quicker than Rosberg due to his fuel conserving technique. Mercedes compiled a 50+ page booklet for Nico on how to drive like Hamilton and for the rest of the year he got it down to being about 0.3 slower in the races. In the old days you would have that advantage, basically forever. Hamilton probably would have won every race that year if he maintained that advantage.


Yeah, POBratings posted some interesting numbers in his driver speed advantage thread. Just to see what kind of gaps existed between teammates back in the day and compared to now is mind boggling. This data sharing Hamilton touched on has a huge impact on that.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Lewis has made it clear that he would like it to be the case that both drivers in a team would operate with a restricted data set regarding their team mate's setup and driving.
I'd like that too, but its never going to happen.

Sometimes in practice, they have to split the tasks and one driver will be working on long runs and race setup and the other will be working on qualifying setup.
It also makes sense when you are trying to solve a problem, to have both drivers working on it - eg. starting clutch problems. The team will probably go with the design that has the best results, independent of which driver that may suit, and the other will have to adapt his driving to suit.

Sometimes the engineer assigned may come up with something. Should that be restricted to one driver, or shared between both?

It's never going to be a one way system and all the drivers make use of information from their team mate - especially if they are close in speed. The first person you have to beat is your team mate. I can remember on one occasion, Lewis saying that they used Nico's setup for qualifying, so it is 2-way traffic in all the teams and is likely to stay that way.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:24 pm 
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It wont happen - its just the mind games starting :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:30 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Lewis has made it clear that he would like it to be the case that both drivers in a team would operate with a restricted data set regarding their team mate's setup and driving.
I'd like that too, but its never going to happen..


lewis (and probably some other drivers) would like that, until one saturday practice session when they were lost on the set up. then they would be crying they want the other drivers data.

ok, so i reread his comments and did initially misunderstand them. really though, what is the difference from an engineer telling a driver he could break 5 meters later than he is, or a driver looking over data from the other side of the garage ? lewis and all other drivers benefit from drivers and engineers who came before them on the team. it certainly isn't solely down to their individual skill set


Last edited by pc27b on Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:06 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
As responses above here say: data should/must be shared for the benefit of the team.
Hamilton benefitted from seeing Alonso's data in 2007, Rosberg from Michael's 2010-2012, Lewis and Nico from each other in 2013-2016.

Lewis should be confident in his own driving ability to share data. If he then beats Bottas everyone will know it was driver and not car set-up superiority.



If you read/hear the interview Hamilton is not saying that. What he said is he's happy to share car set up data. Just his personal racing telemetry like braking points, racing lines, accelerator power out of corners, steering angles et.c.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:40 pm 
Listened to the interview and all sounded quite reasonable, not at all mind gamey, anti team / Bottas - sounded as if he was looking to make competing less of a scientific endeavour and more of a driver championship...which is what most of us have been asking for, isn't it?

Driver fighting driver at the edge of their skills and physics.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:57 pm 
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It all sounds reasonable but the wrong person made the suggestion I guess....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:57 pm 
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It all sounds reasonable but the wrong person made the suggestion I guess....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:20 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Listened to the interview and all sounded quite reasonable, not at all mind gamey, anti team / Bottas - sounded as if he was looking to make competing less of a scientific endeavour and more of a driver championship...which is what most of us have been asking for, isn't it?

Driver fighting driver at the edge of their skills and physics.


I guess some people didn't watch the interview and just read what the media put out.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:48 pm 
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I really dont understand all the controversy here. Look at the bottom of the paycheck and you will see who the telemetry belongs to.
As for hypocrisy from 2007 vs 2017 - yes perhaps. Personally I think in Lewis's mind he thinks he would have won last year if the telemetry wasnt shared. I do find it convenient that he is in favor of sharing car setups which many feel is not his strongest point.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:41 pm 
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He's not talking about SETUP DATA. Listen to what he is saying. Can't believe some peoples comprehension skills.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:57 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
He's not talking about SETUP DATA. Listen to what he is saying. Can't believe some peoples comprehension skills.

A lot of us are quite aware of that, and still don't support his position. You do realize that, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:51 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
spiritone wrote:
He's not talking about SETUP DATA. Listen to what he is saying. Can't believe some peoples comprehension skills.

A lot of us are quite aware of that, and still don't support his position. You do realize that, right?


+1

so true... Some of us actually have comprehension skills and still do not agree with Lewis on this. Why does it have to be the "wrong person" made the statement, or we didn't watch the video?

Why can it not be just a case of some members of this forum feel that the team own's the set-up as well as the telemetry and can use it as they feel best fits the needs of the team? Nor is it just because it is Lewis (this is getting real old), I think that at least in my case, my record on the Team's rights have been consistent for many years in this forum... from the early 2000s discussion on team Orders to this topic.

So please don't try to trivialize any objection to what Lewis wants by brushing it off as an inability to comprehend, inability or desire to watch the video, or some perceived agenda against Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:38 am 
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If everyone comprehends it why am i looking at poster after poster talking about setup info. If any other driver made this remark there would be an entirely different tone to these posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:12 am 
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spiritone wrote:
If everyone comprehends it why am i looking at poster after poster talking about setup info.

Maybe because you are only seeing what you want to see. Initially, it was the set-up that people were talking about.. from both sides. Later however, both set-up and telemetry have been discussed.

If any other driver made this remark there would be an entirely different tone to these posts.

You don't know that. It is certainly your right to believe it, but it only an opinion. You don't think that if Nando or Seb said it, that there would not be discussion/argument? I personally, seriously doubt either of them would get a free pass either.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:35 am 
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If seb said this you honestly think we would be on page 4, really?

First off, none of the other drivers seem to touch anything thats controversial. Everybody says "Drivers should be more open" but the minute he voices an opinion posters are jumping all over him. Having the hamilton on any topic on this forum is going to get 4 pages minimum.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:38 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Sharing data is a two way thing. As Hamilton is the more experienced driver (both in general and with the team) it's probably fair to expect 'his' data would be the more useful data most of the time. He should be mindful though that it's entirely possible Bottas could hit the sweet spot with the setup etc. Would his attitude towards sharing be the same then?

From Mercedes point of view having two teammates who share and work together is obviously the right way to go. They want the best team result possible come raceday and cooperation between teammates is the best way to get that.

It's an understandable request from Hamilton but IMO Mercedes would be silly to indulge him. Also it seems Lewis' mindset is that the situation will be the same as previous years, a straight fight between him and his teammate for the title. There are no guarantees that will still be the case this year and he may find himself in a situation where it's more important to improve the car than squabble with Bottas.

I think there is a misunderstanding here it's not about sharing set ups but being able to copy a drivers braking points, lines etc.

I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It was always thought that Rosberg was the bigger beneficiary of all this data sharing, 70 page dossier and all, and Hamilton's thoughts on the subject seem to bear that out.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:40 am 
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POBRatings wrote:
As responses above here say: data should/must be shared for the benefit of the team.
Hamilton benefitted from seeing Alonso's data in 2007, Rosberg from Michael's 2010-2012, Lewis and Nico from each other in 2013-2016.

Lewis should be confident in his own driving ability to share data. If he then beats Bottas everyone will know it was driver and not car set-up superiority.

Hamilton benefited up to the point that Alonso allowed it, interesting now that such things are the sole ownership of the teams, I find that quite strange.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:42 am 
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j man wrote:
As much as I'd normally lean towards the drivers' interests in these situations (my feeling being that the sport sells itself better when the drivers are the stars rather than being team-focussed), here the team's interests must take precedence. When agreeing Lewis' salary the team would have taken into account only what they get from his own results, but also how much their other driver can gain from his data. No doubt that Hamilton has raised this point because he feels that Rosberg gained more from using his data than vice versa but he has to appreciate that the team employ him at such great expense because his presence aids the performance of both cars, not just because of the results he scores himself.

That's a reasoned point commiserate to his salary in relation to his teammate.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:45 am 
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OutKast wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton, and every driver in Formula One is part of a team. Leading up to the race itself, the TEAM work in unison to tune the car and maximize it's performance. For a driver, it is understandable they are selfish and want to win. I fully support that mental position ... for the race. For the team, they want BOTH cars to finish as high as possible, because winning the Constructor's Championship is what they are after.

In the past there have been very close results in the Manufacturer's Championships, the difference resulting in many millions of dollars in payouts at year's end, as well as prestige and bringing in sponsors. Why should any team sacrifice the interests of the team for any selfish driver? Because in the end, both drivers and cars take to the grid in equal machinery, and may the best man win.

Let's get something straight. It is never a one way flow of data, each driver benefits from what the other driver discovers in practice. Just check last year, when many times Rosberg was fastest in first practice, then Hamilton fastest in following sessions. Guess who was reading the data and benefiting on those occasions?

Why does Hamilton fear Bottas? Why is he already campaigning to handicap the Finn?

Handicap? How do you perceive this as a handicap for either driver? What he's campaigning for is to not share driving data between drivers. Can you clarify your claim?


Thats how Rosberg got even better because he would analyze data all the time comparing his information to Lewis' information, but its funny how exactly 10 years ago, how time flies by, and Lewis was FOR sharing data as a rookie when Lewis and Fernando was on the same team. Times really have changed and to think he enjoyed reading over Alonso's data at the beginning of his career.

I understand why, but you already know Mercedes is having none of that.

He was a rookie Bottas is a 4 year veteran, also Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
He was a rookie Bottas is a 4 year veteran, also Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him.


Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm finding this a bit disingenuous, tbh. You're the one who attacked the other poster for his views, yet you're upset because people can't debate civilly?

We can have a good debate about this. Just don't turn it into a "you must hate Hamilton" thread and problem solved


I am not upset. I do find this frequent pattern so predictable though and also kinda boring!

So let me ask you. How do you think this issue affects the field and the predictability of the racing? Do you think it has any impact on team performance? Would you be against data sharing if it led to less predictable results along team lines? How about the conflict with the spirit of competition within the team? Everybody keeps clamouring for teams to let drivers race fairly. Do you think it is fair that your advantage should be given away to your teammate, whom you are required or even expected to beat?

I don't have any problem with it. Go back to 2012, when Button was struggling with his setup issues. I think it would be pretty absurd not to analyse the data from the car that was working fine in an attempt to get back on track. The team can fix it but effectively hamper themselves? I don't get it.

To be fair Hamilton is actually talking about studying braking points (his he braking x meters earlier), gears through the corners, how to drive the car.

That's a fair point.

I'm still not sure I see the issue though, although it does raise a broader question for me on the whole driving by numbers thing. Why do the drivers even need to see their own telemetry? If the issue is predictability, then let them drive by feel alone

Are they looking at their own telemetry though?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:56 am 
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spiritone wrote:
If seb said this you honestly think we would be on page 4, really?

First off, none of the other drivers seem to touch anything thats controversial. Everybody says "Drivers should be more open" but the minute he voices an opinion posters are jumping all over him. Having the hamilton on any topic on this forum is going to get 4 pages minimum.


Would it be on page 4? Maybe yes, maybe no. Seb does not have the large PF1 fan base that Lewis has so there may not have been as much discussion/debate... maybe only page 3. BTW, how many pages did Nico generate for having praised Lewis last week?
;)

So it is the other drivers fault that they don't "touch anything thats controversial"??? Perhaps that is not all bad. Lewis catches a lot of flak because of many of the things he says, and he has a bit of a reputation for controversial comments and actions... while it may be refreshing to some fans, it is also going to put him square in the crosshairs with others. That should be expected... by Lewis and by his fans.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:10 am 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Listened to the interview and all sounded quite reasonable, not at all mind gamey, anti team / Bottas - sounded as if he was looking to make competing less of a scientific endeavour and more of a driver championship...which is what most of us have been asking for, isn't it?

Driver fighting driver at the edge of their skills and physics.

Don't see much dispute when considering this as an option that could be enforced on the teams, in the manner it was intended in the interview, so I guess the majority of the last 4 pages of discussion is fairly irrelevant. Still not actually sure how you could enforce it though, unless you actually stopped the teams collecting the race data in the first place.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:20 am 
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Pullrod wrote:


Hamilton mentioned this on top gear as well a few years ago now when quizzed about his relationship with Rosberg, he said nowadays it's much harder to beat your teammate because he can see everything that you do inside the car.

As I believe as I see that has already been pointed out he was asked what he would like to see changed in F1 and the Bottas angle has been tagged onto what he said, it's nice to see the concern for Bottas' well being within the team if Hamilton ever got his wish though. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:29 am 
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With the amount of data that is collected now i am sure that these cars could do without a driver.
This is not like the argument of seena vs prost sharing data, the computerization of these cars has gone far beyond that.
Does it stop when you don't need a driver? Should the discussion start now about where the limits should be?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:34 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He was a rookie Bottas is a 4 year veteran, also Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him.


Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:08 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:12 am 
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spiritone wrote:
With the amount of data that is collected now i am sure that these cars could do without a driver.
This is not like the argument of seena vs prost sharing data, the computerization of these cars has gone far beyond that.
Does it stop when you don't need a driver? Should the discussion start now about where the limits should be?


All the telemetry and set-ups do not drive the car. That still remains for the driver to do, and how well he/she does it will determine their success. So what if Bottas has all of Hamilton's telemetry, he is still not Lewis Hamilton... is he? If someone could take another driver's set-up and telemetry and then out drive said driver... what does that say about the original driver?

Just some food for thought.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:16 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.


Yup... a point some of us have been trying to make for years in here. As I said earlier... Much of the PF1 fanbase obviously leans toward a Driver-centric F1, but the teams do not. And as such, that is why we must remember who foots the bills and pays the salaries on any given F1 team.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:18 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He was a rookie Bottas is a 4 year veteran, also Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him.


Bottas is a rookie with Mercedes.

Can you show me proof that "Alonso nipped that in the bud when Hamilton started to beat him". I would like to see it.

The car this year is completely different.

Regarding Alonso I thought this was common knowledge, also someone has already posted that this happened after Hungary so I just didn't pluck it out of the air as such.


You said "when Hamilton started to beat him"... I seem to recall that Hamilton was beating Nando long before Hungary. Why didn't Alonso "Nip" it in the bud much earlier if that is the case?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:57 am 
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Blake wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess the point is, is it a team competition or a driver competition, for me the most prestigious title is the WDC, one driver is not being kept in the dark if he gets lost on set up but he is at the end of the day he is competing against his teammate with the slower driver basically being coached on how best to beat his teammate.

It's a team competition, and pretty obviously so. Always has been. Always will be. The only odd part is that a sizable portion of the fanbase doesn't seem to realize it's watching a team sport.


Yup... a point some of us have been trying to make for years in here. As I said earlier... Much of the PF1 fanbase obviously leans toward a Driver-centric F1, but the teams do not. And as such, that is why we must remember who foots the bills and pays the salaries on any given F1 team.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. Rules are introduced to handicap the teams, and in some instances they may also affect the driver performance relative to one another. For example, the significant reductions to in car testing would not only have held the teams back, but also some drivers more than others. Feel free to actually discuss the point at hand though.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:05 am 
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Blake wrote:
spiritone wrote:
With the amount of data that is collected now i am sure that these cars could do without a driver.
This is not like the argument of seena vs prost sharing data, the computerization of these cars has gone far beyond that.
Does it stop when you don't need a driver? Should the discussion start now about where the limits should be?


All the telemetry and set-ups do not drive the car. That still remains for the driver to do, and how well he/she does it will determine their success. So what if Bottas has all of Hamilton's telemetry, he is still not Lewis Hamilton... is he? If someone could take another driver's set-up and telemetry and then out drive said driver... what does that say about the original driver?

Just some food for thought.

Probably says that one driver is better at understanding where his team mate is more competitive and using that to compliment his own driving. I'd guess if drivers had similar styles it would more likely swing back and forth, until diminishing returns set in and their times equalize. If you genuinely believe that a drivers ability to learn from another's data is as important as natural driving talent then that's fair enough. This luxury would not however have been available a few generations ago so could partly explain why modern drivers are so closely matched. I'd argue it's no different to any other sport though. With the level of training most sports receive these days the variance in ability is going to always equalize to some extent.


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