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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:37 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
The FIA should:
- ban driver onboard videos during Free Practice sessions(I would hate to see my techniques shared to other drivers during the race weekends. I mean, If retired drivers like Coulthard, Herbert, Webber and Brundle can pick up what the car or Lewis is doing with his feet and hands ONLY by looking at the onboard video, imagine what your team mate can do ). I absolutely hate this aspect and would ban it immediately !!!!!!
- ban some radio information from engineer to driver.

Those are the "Lewis" secrets and tricks Rosberg said he would not happily share with Bottas.

That seems like a bit much. Banning telemetry and in-depth data gathering I can see, but there is no other sport in the world where your competitors don't even get a chance to see visually what you're doing. If they can copy Hamilton's technique just by watching him drive (and I don't believe they can) then fair play to them. Banning onboards is just ridiculous - I love watching them, and I doubt I'm alone in that regard.

Your comment about Senna brings up an interesting point for me, however: if Prost had access to Senna's telemetry to the extent he would nowadays, would he have been able to use it to go just as fast?


There is no doubt in my opinion that some drivers in the past(Schumacher/Senna) have benefited from the fact that there was less sofisticated data acquisition and "science" back then.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:51 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
The title of the thread was actually the first attempt at "derailing" Hamilton's comments in my view.
Hamilton did not say he doesn't want to share data with Bottas, he just thinks that sharing braking points, racing lines and other driver's personal telemetry shouldn't be allowed in F1. He did not name any other driver, did not name Bottas, who has yet to drive with the team last time I checked. It does not really matter that Lewis has benefited from sharing data in the past, he just thinks it shouldn't be allowed. I think he is absolutely right, although a ban will never happen as long as there is a constructor's championship

For those who follow tennis, Roger Federer has been a very vocal critic of the electronic "shot spot" line calling system that allow the umpire to challenge line calls at a player's request, but Roger uses it all the time, because it is within the rules.

Umm what? How can I derail my own thread?
How is it not Bottas he is talking about?
"I go out, do my laps, do all my homework, [and] the other guy can see everything," said Hamilton.


"I have asked my team. I don't want to see my team mate's.


Context is everything. The thread title and single line you quoted implies that Hamilton has did nothing but pursued Mercedes to not share his data with Bottas.

In reality - he was talking in the context of how to improve F1, believes more onus should be on the drivers, and gave a personal example.

The usual suspects line up on here. It's pathetic at times, as a neutral trying to debate things its also semi-infuriating. Usually we have the people who dislike Hamilton routinely disliking Hamilton, then blaming the Hamilton 'fanboys' for it. The even more infuriating bit is you get fairly intelligent people throwing logic aside, and also completely failing to read what Hamilton actually said prior to criticising him.

I think that's a bit harsh, tbh. The OP was quoting an article in Autosport which pretty much said exactly that and then followed it up by asking whether data should be shared. Do we have to tip-toe around every sentence now looking for offence?

I think some are getting way too hung up on posters' personal motivations. Of course most will assume Lewis is talking about what happened with Rosberg and and now not sharing with Bottas, since that ties in neatly with his subsequent sentences about someone new coming along. I don't see why that's an issue.

I can understand why Lewis wants to keep the information to himself. Especially these days every advantage helps, no matter how small, and I can imagine he's extremely self-confident at the moment and feels that he doesn't need anybody else's help, so why give them help in reverse? But, as someone earlier posted, I think he sometimes forgets it's a team sport and if a team feels it's in their best interests to have both drivers getting the maximum out of the machinery then it's logical for them to do everything possible to achieve that. It's not always going to be like the last few years, where the only competition Mercedes had to worry about was from within. At some point (hopefully sooner, rather than later) the Mercedes drivers will find themselves battling other competitors and then the team will undoubtedly want both drivers to use any advantage they can to stay ahead.

I'd be surprised if Mercedes allowed this. But there again, I've been surprised about a good number of decisions they've made in the past so I shouldn't be too surprised if they do, either


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:52 am 
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The type of data Lewis is talking about is driving lines and braking points, this should not be shared between team mates. Otherwise what's the point of having a WDC at all?

Car setups, tyre strategy is more of a grey area as they have a limited amount of time to get this right.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:58 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:03 am 
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Exediron wrote:
BTW, could someone give a source on all the claims that Alonso made use of Hamilton's data in 2007? I've never heard that before, and I'm interested to see where people are getting it from.
Considering he was using information from Ferrari (I believe I read at the time that he even requested specific extra information), I would be surprised if he hadn't used the available Hamilton information, even if it only served to confirm some of his own conclusions.

Remember when qualifying wasn't a comedy in three acts? Drivers used to watch others out on track, checking their lines, sector times, mistakes, etc. on the TV monitors the teams placed on their cars. And in the really old days they sometimes would even stay out after a failure or accident to watch the others closely from the track side. Data "sharing" or at the very least study, old style.
I can't really see Hamilton's point; he may have used Rosberg's data less than Rosberg used his, but I recall a comment from someone in the team saying Rosberg just did more homework than him. Perhaps Hamilton found out that Bottas has an advantage in interpretation of racing data that makes him uncomfortable. But the comment is surprising.

I hope 11/10's ban won't last too long.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:14 am 
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Pullrod wrote:


Looks like Mercedes had another of those, "Oh, no Lewis again" (Zetsche quotation) moments, and he got straight answer from the team about the matter, which looks quite settled now in favor of data sharing.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:16 am 
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Zoue wrote:
I think that's a bit harsh, tbh. The OP was quoting an article in Autosport which pretty much said exactly that and then followed it up by asking whether data should be shared. Do we have to tip-toe around every sentence now looking for offence?

I think some are getting way too hung up on posters' personal motivations. Of course most will assume Lewis is talking about what happened with Rosberg and and now not sharing with Bottas, since that ties in neatly with his subsequent sentences about someone new coming along. I don't see why that's an issue.

I can understand why Lewis wants to keep the information to himself. Especially these days every advantage helps, no matter how small, and I can imagine he's extremely self-confident at the moment and feels that he doesn't need anybody else's help, so why give them help in reverse? But, as someone earlier posted, I think he sometimes forgets it's a team sport and if a team feels it's in their best interests to have both drivers getting the maximum out of the machinery then it's logical for them to do everything possible to achieve that. It's not always going to be like the last few years, where the only competition Mercedes had to worry about was from within. At some point (hopefully sooner, rather than later) the Mercedes drivers will find themselves battling other competitors and then the team will undoubtedly want both drivers to use any advantage they can to stay ahead.

I'd be surprised if Mercedes allowed this. But there again, I've been surprised about a good number of decisions they've made in the past so I shouldn't be too surprised if they do, either


I don't think it's harsh.

Autosport headline - Hamilton calls for end to data sharing between teammates in F1
Thread title - Lewis doesn't want to share data with Bottas

Don't you agree that both carry very different connotations? The single line he quoted also played to the "doesn't want to share with Bottas" view, rather than the broader point around sharing in F1 which he was actually making.

I don't believe in tip toeing completely, I do believe in intentionally misrepresenting or simply not paying enough attention before passing it along.

What Hamilton is saying is never going to happen. I wish we could, but I don't think there's a way to reliably police it. Teams need data, and how can you prevent that data from shifting from one end of the garage to another when simple word of mouth can do the trick? I do also agree with him in that I'd like it to happen though. We wanted the end to driver coaching via radio to prevent embarassing stuff like being advised to brake 5 metres later, I'd love for this to extend from "keeping the public away from it" to "the driver not getting driver coaching to that extent at all".


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:17 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
The title of the thread was actually the first attempt at "derailing" Hamilton's comments in my view.
Hamilton did not say he doesn't want to share data with Bottas, he just thinks that sharing braking points, racing lines and other driver's personal telemetry shouldn't be allowed in F1. He did not name any other driver, did not name Bottas, who has yet to drive with the team last time I checked. It does not really matter that Lewis has benefited from sharing data in the past, he just thinks it shouldn't be allowed. I think he is absolutely right, although a ban will never happen as long as there is a constructor's championship

For those who follow tennis, Roger Federer has been a very vocal critic of the electronic "shot spot" line calling system that allow the umpire to challenge line calls at a player's request, but Roger uses it all the time, because it is within the rules.

Umm what? How can I derail my own thread?
How is it not Bottas he is talking about?
"I go out, do my laps, do all my homework, [and] the other guy can see everything," said Hamilton.


"I have asked my team. I don't want to see my team mate's.


Context is everything. The thread title and single line you quoted implies that Hamilton has did nothing but pursued Mercedes to not share his data with Bottas.

In reality - he was talking in the context of how to improve F1, believes more onus should be on the drivers, and gave a personal example.

The usual suspects line up on here. It's pathetic at times, as a neutral trying to debate things its also semi-infuriating. Usually we have the people who dislike Hamilton routinely disliking Hamilton, then blaming the Hamilton 'fanboys' for it. The even more infuriating bit is you get fairly intelligent people throwing logic aside, and also completely failing to read what Hamilton actually said prior to criticising him.


Yup. The question was 'if you could change just one rule'. Which assumes he has the authority to change rules, and it would apply to all in F1. (Not just to his teammate). So I just dont get this argument that the teams own the data and they can do what they want with it no matter what the rule makers say. Unless you are going to ignore the premise of the question, or never bothered to listen to it before posting?
The whole second half of the interview were questions on how he would improve F1. He came up with about a dozen ideas; with a whole group of them (including the rule on data sharing) designed to make it more difficult for the driver. Quite amusing that those who want to point the Bottas finger at Hamilton pretty much all agree with Hamilton in that the data sharing Hamilton highlights does aid the other driver.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:24 am 
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Pullrod wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:48 am 
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cm97 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Hamilton was talking about driving lines, braking points, diff settings, gear selection(a LOT of time to gain here in qualifying), etc..
He said if you give a very good F3 driver his lines, he will drive just as fast as him. He is NOT talking about CAR SETUP so I don't see the similarity with 2007. I don't remember at the time all the radio doaching we have now( "use 3rd gear at the exit", "change diff setting to have less spining", etc..).

Today they dissect every centimetre of the track and driving style with ton of sensors and machine learning techniques.
Hamilton is talking about what he finds himself during the FP through experimentation and feeling, not the CAR SETUP!! what he benefited from Alonso was the CAR SETUP not how you brake, also because their braking styles could not be more different.

This is exactly why the "Senna was GOD and would destroy Hamilton/Alonso" makes me smile because at the time he could hide and drivers did NOT have many opportunities to "copy" him using the tools available today(there was NO youtube which Verstappen(and Rosberg) himself has admitted he watches to learn).

The FIA should:
- ban driver onboard videos during Free Practice sessions(I would hate to see my techniques shared to other drivers during the race weekends. I mean, If retired drivers like Coulthard, Herbert, Webber and Brundle can pick up what the car or Lewis is doing with his feet and hands ONLY by looking at the onboard video, imagine what your team mate can do ). I absolutely hate this aspect and would ban it immediately !!!!!!
- ban some radio information from engineer to driver.

Those are the "Lewis" secrets and tricks Rosberg said he would not happily share with Bottas.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. If it was as simple as looking at a video then Brundle would have been able to be equal with Schumacher, Coulthard equal with Hakkinen and Webber equal with Vettel (albeit there are more circumstances). But it's not that easy and hence why Schumacher, Hakkinen and Vettel have a combined 13 championships but the others none. It's so easy to look at the techniques with both video and data traces and get reasonably close, but there is that little bit of raw skill that pushes the true champions to the top.
That's part of what makes Rosbergs achievement so special. He used every resource around him and maximised his potential and hence got the championship he did.


:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:59 am 
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Fiki wrote:
I hope 11/10's ban won't last too long.

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:20 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think that's a bit harsh, tbh. The OP was quoting an article in Autosport which pretty much said exactly that and then followed it up by asking whether data should be shared. Do we have to tip-toe around every sentence now looking for offence?

I think some are getting way too hung up on posters' personal motivations. Of course most will assume Lewis is talking about what happened with Rosberg and and now not sharing with Bottas, since that ties in neatly with his subsequent sentences about someone new coming along. I don't see why that's an issue.

I can understand why Lewis wants to keep the information to himself. Especially these days every advantage helps, no matter how small, and I can imagine he's extremely self-confident at the moment and feels that he doesn't need anybody else's help, so why give them help in reverse? But, as someone earlier posted, I think he sometimes forgets it's a team sport and if a team feels it's in their best interests to have both drivers getting the maximum out of the machinery then it's logical for them to do everything possible to achieve that. It's not always going to be like the last few years, where the only competition Mercedes had to worry about was from within. At some point (hopefully sooner, rather than later) the Mercedes drivers will find themselves battling other competitors and then the team will undoubtedly want both drivers to use any advantage they can to stay ahead.

I'd be surprised if Mercedes allowed this. But there again, I've been surprised about a good number of decisions they've made in the past so I shouldn't be too surprised if they do, either


I don't think it's harsh.

Autosport headline - Hamilton calls for end to data sharing between teammates in F1
Thread title - Lewis doesn't want to share data with Bottas

Don't you agree that both carry very different connotations? The single line he quoted also played to the "doesn't want to share with Bottas" view, rather than the broader point around sharing in F1 which he was actually making.

I don't believe in tip toeing completely, I do believe in intentionally misrepresenting or simply not paying enough attention before passing it along.

What Hamilton is saying is never going to happen. I wish we could, but I don't think there's a way to reliably police it. Teams need data, and how can you prevent that data from shifting from one end of the garage to another when simple word of mouth can do the trick? I do also agree with him in that I'd like it to happen though. We wanted the end to driver coaching via radio to prevent embarassing stuff like being advised to brake 5 metres later, I'd love for this to extend from "keeping the public away from it" to "the driver not getting driver coaching to that extent at all".

I guess I don't really see that much of a distinction. I don't believe Lewis cares one iota about whether Kimi shares data with Seb, for example. And that's a not a dig at Lewis, either, since I don't believe either Seb or Kimi care what Lewis does with his own data.

I think this is motivated by his experience between himself and Rosberg and he's keen to try and block Bottas from enjoying any privileges with "his" data. But I guess the difference between us is that I don't see that as such a big deal and that's what I meant about tip-toeing around things. Sometimes people read far more into things than are really there and arguments are created by some perceived insult, where none is intended. I think we shouldn't be so quick to take offence on behalf of drivers.

On a simple level I'd rather drivers had no data - not even their own - and drove by feel, a bit like they do in karting. But in this data driven world it's not going to happen so I don't think it's realistic to try and block it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:50 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:52 am 
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I understand what Lewis is getting at, he want's each driver to win or lose on their own merit and through their own skill. However being a team sport it is inevitable that for the good of the team they should put both drivers data together to get the best set-up for the car and thus maximise the result on any given weekend.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?


Didn't he say that he asked the team that data would not be shared anymore?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:23 pm 
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mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?


Didn't he say that he asked the team that data would not be shared anymore?


Did he? Either way I still don't see the hypocrisy.

I don't want to get paid but what I do, I'll even ask for more money - I'm still at work today earning the same salary I was last week.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:44 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest

Seriously mate how many times you going to repeat yourself?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?


Didn't he say that he asked the team that data would not be shared anymore?


Did he? Either way I still don't see the hypocrisy.


I think he did, reading the interview...
Going by that I can see why there are talks about hypocrisy: in that back then he looked at the experienced driver's data (completely within the rules, so no problem) but now that he's the experienced driver, he doesn't want others to look at his data anymore.

Quote:
I don't want to get paid but what I do, I'll even ask for more money - I'm still at work today earning the same salary I was last week.


Sorry, this I don't get. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:53 pm 
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mds wrote:

I think he did, reading the interview...
Going by that I can see why there are talks about hypocrisy: in that back then he looked at the experienced driver's data (completely within the rules, so no problem) but now that he's the experienced driver, he doesn't want others to look at his data anymore.

Quote:
I don't want to get paid but what I do, I'll even ask for more money - I'm still at work today earning the same salary I was last week.


Sorry, this I don't get. :)


That's not what he's saying. He's saying that nobody should be sharing data with anyone in an ideal world, and this is a position he's always been consistent on. But in my opinion, you'd be pretty damn stupid to not read data and give yourself a disadvantage whilst its allowed and you know everyone else is doing it. As such there's no hypocrisy in him always having read teammates' data versus him always having the opinion that it shouldn't happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?


I'm glad I'm not the only one that couldnt work that one out. Just about every team and driver has spoke about what they would like to see changed for the future. Just about every team and driver has benefited from past rules, regulations and norms they now want changed. Are they all hypocrites for suggesting change?
Alonso has been very vocal over the last few seasons on the way forward, including data restrictions. I don't see many accusing him of hypocrisy because he has the wealth of experience that most others do not possess.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:07 pm 
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To be honest, I'm not sure I understand what Hamilton said, and not for the first time either.
He asked his team... he doesn't want to see the other guy's data. :?
I'm probably not slang-savvy enough, I don't even know what he means when he says he brings his A-game. I know about an X-box (more or less), but what's an A-game?

I'm heading to the Oxford Dictionaries page, that's what I'm going to do. :proud:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Has anyone watch the video clip I posted yesterday?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
mds wrote:

I think he did, reading the interview...
Going by that I can see why there are talks about hypocrisy: in that back then he looked at the experienced driver's data (completely within the rules, so no problem) but now that he's the experienced driver, he doesn't want others to look at his data anymore.

Quote:
I don't want to get paid but what I do, I'll even ask for more money - I'm still at work today earning the same salary I was last week.


Sorry, this I don't get. :)


That's not what he's saying. He's saying that nobody should be sharing data with anyone in an ideal world, and this is a position he's always been consistent on. But in my opinion, you'd be pretty damn stupid to not read data and give yourself a disadvantage whilst its allowed and you know everyone else is doing it. As such there's no hypocrisy in him always having read teammates' data versus him always having the opinion that it shouldn't happen.


He's not just "having the opinion that it shouldn't happen" as if it was a mere suggestion to change the rules of the sport. From the article, he has asked the team to, even within this set of regulations, stop sharing data between its drivers.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:14 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?


I'm glad I'm not the only one that couldnt work that one out. Just about every team and driver has spoke about what they would like to see changed for the future. Just about every team and driver has benefited from past rules, regulations and norms they now want changed. Are they all hypocrites for suggesting change?


Read my above post. The hypocrisy part isn't in "suggesting rule changes" but in asking the team to stop sharing data even under current rules.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
Has anyone watch the video clip I posted yesterday?


Watched it live. Then watched it again once the clickbait headlines appeared. I can only assume his usual critics are mellowing; or they never watched it in the first place.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?

If you are against it, don't do it, because you are not forced to do so. Therefore it is hypocrisy.

Dictionary wrote:
Definition of hypocrisy
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:57 pm 
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mds wrote:

Read my above post. The hypocrisy part isn't in "suggesting rule changes" but in asking the team to stop sharing data even under current rules.


His exact words aren't actually very clear.

Quote:
"I go out, do my laps, do all my homework, [and] the other guy can see everything," said Hamilton.

"I have asked my team. I don't want to see my team mate's.

"I don't feel it's fair that he brings his A-game and I should be able to study his A-game on a computer.


Has he asked his team they blindfold him and not show him his teammates, or has he raised it with his team that he doesn't like this practice? Bear in mind he's talking, and doesn't have the benefit to go back and rewrite things or expand further (like me with my terrible salary analogy :)). My guess is he's bitched to his team and people around him about this practice, whilst fully accepting he can't intentionally give away an advantage when everyone around him is doing it.


nixxxon wrote:
If you are against it, don't do it, because you are not forced to do so. Therefore it is hypocrisy.

Dictionary wrote:
Definition of hypocrisy
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel


I think you're stretching the definition if you think what he is saying is hypocrisy. Operating within the parameters of the present does not forbid you from wishing for a better future. He is not feigning a belief, and I'll steal the Federer example someone gave earlier - he doesn't like the technology in place in tennis which allows for challenges, as a sportsperson he operates within the rules and there is no hypocrisy in using those challenges.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
I think you're stretching the definition if you think what he is saying is hypocrisy. Operating within the parameters of the present does not forbid you from wishing for a better future. He is not feigning a belief, and I'll steal the Federer example someone gave earlier - he doesn't like the technology in place in tennis which allows for challenges, as a sportsperson he operates within the rules and there is no hypocrisy in using those challenges.


Sure its allowed, but still an hypocrite. Operating within the rules, exploiting the situation, and being an hypocrite, all at the same time.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
mds wrote:

Read my above post. The hypocrisy part isn't in "suggesting rule changes" but in asking the team to stop sharing data even under current rules.


His exact words aren't actually very clear.


I'll give you that, but then what else could they have meant?

When listening to him talking it sounds like he was starting to say "I've asked my team [to stop sharing data]" but then seemed to have second thoughts about saying such a thing (for obvious reasons) and cut it off.

But honestly I can't see any other meaning for it than exactly this.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:49 pm 
nixxxon wrote:
Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?

If you are against it, don't do it, because you are not forced to do so. Therefore it is hypocrisy.

Dictionary wrote:
Definition of hypocrisy
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel



You can be against something but have to do it for competitive reasons because everybody else does...

A company owner can want to pay above minimum wage but has to pay it because all his rivals do and if he paid more his company would simply fail and go out of business. He can campaign to pay above minimum wage but can not do so unless everybody else does.

Its quite a common phenomenon in both business, ethics, decision making, sport and just about everything else.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:08 pm 
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lamo wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Ennis wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Sure lewis, you were against it in 2007 but you did it anyway. Hypocrisy at its finest


What is hypocritical about wishing a certain rule didn't exist, but operating within the rules that do exist?

If you are against it, don't do it, because you are not forced to do so. Therefore it is hypocrisy.

Dictionary wrote:
Definition of hypocrisy
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel



You can be against something but have to do it for competitive reasons because everybody else does...

A company owner can want to pay above minimum wage but has to pay it because all his rivals do and if he paid more his company would simply fail and go out of business. He can campaign to pay above minimum wage but can not do so unless everybody else does.

Its quite a common phenomenon in both business, ethics, decision making, sport and just about everything else.


I think this and the Federer example are very true but I think peoples issue appears to be more that he didn't seem to be coming from a perspective of someone who benefited from such things and was speaking from experience but from someone who didn't need it and found his own way and others should just do the same.

An nod to his own experiences would have gone a long way to nip a lot of the criticism in the bud I think.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:42 pm 
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On the shared data point being beneficial to the team and an obligation for both drivers as employees to work together to get the most out of the car I think there is an important distinction between set up work and diver data.

I think the drivers have an obligation to work together to set the car up to get the most out of it but I feel that's where Lewis or anyone's else's obligation stops for me personally. I don't think getting one driver up to speed with the other through driver data is the responsibility of the "lead" driver.

While I do understand doing that helps get the maximum points for the team if you can get the slower driver up to speed with the lead driver but I fail to see how that is the lead drivers problem and if you go down that road then where does the obligation to help get the maximum team result stop at?.

If your lead driver is 1st and other is 3rd should the lead slow down and try to help get the other guy more points for the team?.

For me once he's helped get the car to it's maximum capability through shared set up work it's no longer his issue if the other driver can't get the most out if it. I'd argue the team should get a driver than can get the most out of it rather than relying on your other driver to teach him along the way.

I feel his obligation to the team as far as trying to get the maximum result for the team should end at setting up the car.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:01 pm 
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I disagree with Hamilton. A team should work as a team.

Disappointed but not surprised that he seems to be getting heavily criticised for voicing a fairly well reasoned and justifiable position.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
On the shared data point being beneficial to the team and an obligation for both drivers as employees to work together to get the most out of the car I think there is an important distinction between set up work and diver data.

I think the drivers have an obligation to work together to set the car up to get the most out of it but I feel that's where Lewis or anyone's else's obligation stops for me personally. I don't think getting one driver up to speed with the other through driver data is the responsibility of the "lead" driver.

While I do understand doing that helps get the maximum points for the team if you can get the slower driver up to speed with the lead driver but I fail to see how that is the lead drivers problem and if you go down that road then where does the obligation to help get the maximum team result stop at?.

If your lead driver is 1st and other is 3rd should the lead slow down and try to help get the other guy more points for the team?.

For me once he's helped get the car to it's maximum capability through shared set up work it's no longer his issue if the other driver can't get the most out if it. I'd argue the team should get a driver than can get the most out of it rather than relying on your other driver to teach him along the way.

I feel his obligation to the team as far as trying to get the maximum result for the team should end at setting up the car.

I agree as far as his obligation goes, but I don't think the suggestion is that a driver goes out of his way to help his team mate. It's the team that will share the data, not the driver.

Everything a driver does is as part of the team, so any information gained belongs to the team, too. Turning it around, should a team be obligated to hide one driver's data from other members of the team?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
On the shared data point being beneficial to the team and an obligation for both drivers as employees to work together to get the most out of the car I think there is an important distinction between set up work and diver data.

I think the drivers have an obligation to work together to set the car up to get the most out of it but I feel that's where Lewis or anyone's else's obligation stops for me personally. I don't think getting one driver up to speed with the other through driver data is the responsibility of the "lead" driver.

While I do understand doing that helps get the maximum points for the team if you can get the slower driver up to speed with the lead driver but I fail to see how that is the lead drivers problem and if you go down that road then where does the obligation to help get the maximum team result stop at?.

If your lead driver is 1st and other is 3rd should the lead slow down and try to help get the other guy more points for the team?.

For me once he's helped get the car to it's maximum capability through shared set up work it's no longer his issue if the other driver can't get the most out if it. I'd argue the team should get a driver than can get the most out of it rather than relying on your other driver to teach him along the way.

I feel his obligation to the team as far as trying to get the maximum result for the team should end at setting up the car.

I agree as far as his obligation goes, but I don't think the suggestion is that a driver goes out of his way to help his team mate. It's the team that will share the data, not the driver.

Everything a driver does is as part of the team, so any information gained belongs to the team, too. Turning it around, should a team be obligated to hide one driver's data from other members of the team?


Fair point on it being the team rather than the driver.

Well it's not uncommon within a team to hide certain information from other team members in other areas so I can see the precedent if they wanted to extend it to drivers data. There are well walled off aspects around the car and fuel being the examples I can think of.

Not a perfect example because they're hiding data to protect themselves or the team in the event they join a rival outfit but it does happen so it's a question of how far you take it I think.

I think it's worth thinking about anyway in respect to the diver data rather than set up work.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:09 pm 
The downside is also when you get a Hamilton-Rosberg type battle they both end up holding back 0.2-0.3 all weekend for the final run in qualifying so neither probably go as quickly as they might have if they had both openly shared throughout the weekend up to that point. That is fine when its a two horse race, but if other cars are involved it could see the Mercedes or any other team lose a few positions during the season. Just the price you pay for having two relatively equal drivers.

It makes you wonder how less dominant some drivers would have been in the past with open telemetry. For example at the first race in Malaysia 2014, Hamilton was 0.6-0.7 per lap quicker than Rosberg due to his fuel conserving technique. Mercedes compiled a 50+ page booklet for Nico on how to drive like Hamilton and for the rest of the year he got it down to being about 0.3 slower in the races. In the old days you would have that advantage, basically forever. Hamilton probably would have won every race that year if he maintained that advantage.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
https://www.periscope.tv/w/1gqxvqzDByeJB

Finally managed to watch the whole thing. Have to say he comes across a lot better in the interview than he does on print, with one or two exceptions.

I'm in two minds after watching that. On the one hand, I see his point, but OTOH everything is so dat driven now anyway that it seems silly to stop it there. They all practice their lines on PS anyway, by all accounts!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Does seem a strange thing to say, tbh. It's not "his" data: it's the team's. And if the team thinks that using that data will help maximise both cars' finishing potential, then why shouldn't they use that?

Bit of attention grabbing here, I think

He said he is happy for the engineers to use the data just would prefer the other driver not to studying it.

He probably doesn't want Bottas to get a similar dossier to Rosberg after the latter was thumped at Malaysia in 2014.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:22 pm 
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it would mix the grid a bit if each driver used hits talent and skills to do their own thing on settings

if each team shares data between drivers we could end up a grid of 2 mercs and then 2 red bulls and then 2 by 2 and so on , great for the teams but boring for the punters


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:30 pm 
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While much of this forum may be "driver-centric", the teams are not. If you want it to be that way they need to eliminate the two car rule... then the teams can focus everything on that one driver. Until then the teams must focus on what is best for the team and remind the drivers that they are just part of the team.

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