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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think you're both looking at things way to black and white TBH. The whole situation around Spa, pecking order in the team and general driving standards at Mercedes is so much more nuanced that either of you seem prepared to concede. Zoue, Rosberg was not always the victim of big bad lier Hamilton and Mercedes. I think you've been arguing against Hamilton fans too long and allowed your self to get entrenched in a position against Hamilton. I haven't seen you back Hamilton on anything for a while now? Over the course of the last 3 years Rosberg has been probably at least as dirty. And Pokerman we all expect you to defend Hamilton to the hilt but you have to accept that too often Hamilton has let emotion get the better of him which has negatively affected his team. His inability to put Monaco 2014 behind him allowed this destructive relationship to develop and it ended up doing no good to anybody.



Not been on this forum long, but I’m impressed with your ability to see things from both sides. It’s refreshing. The only thing I would take issue with is that it was Monaco that Hamilton couldn’t put behind him. I’d argue It was Bahrain 2014 that sewed the sense of resentment within Hamilton (Rosberg being the first to use a particular engine setting).

But yes, on the whole, they were as bad as each other. Good, balanced post Mikey.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:34 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
From AMuS.

Best Sector Times.

Image

I can't see the image. Is it just me?

If McLaren and Mercedes are close in the final sector - which is very definitely not a power sector - that would tend to imply the Macca chassis actually isn't a dog and it really is the engine holding it back... ;)

Really? To me those sector times are just another indication the merc chassis is no longer a world beater whereas the ferrari is clearly the class of the field.

Bear in mind that when I wrote the above, I couldn't see the table and was just going by someone saying Mercedes and McLaren were closely matched in the final sector. After actually seeing the table, yeah - it doesn't look so good for Macca. Mercedes weren't good in the final sector, which either means they were sandbagging or aren't as good as they used to be.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:42 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
From AMuS.

Best Sector Times.

Image

I can't see the image. Is it just me?

If McLaren and Mercedes are close in the final sector - which is very definitely not a power sector - that would tend to imply the Macca chassis actually isn't a dog and it really is the engine holding it back... ;)

Really? To me those sector times are just another indication the merc chassis is no longer a world beater whereas the ferrari is clearly the class of the field.

Bear in mind that when I wrote the above, I couldn't see the table and was just going by someone saying Mercedes and McLaren were closely matched in the final sector. After actually seeing the table, yeah - it doesn't look so good for Macca. Mercedes weren't good in the final sector, which either means they were sandbagging or aren't as good as they used to be.


I think they were struggling with their new floor in the second test and didn't have a good set up so I think they'll be fine when they get on top of that.

Williams impressive again at the start of a new rule set is good to see.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:54 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
From AMuS.

Best Sector Times.

Image

I can't see the image. Is it just me?

If McLaren and Mercedes are close in the final sector - which is very definitely not a power sector - that would tend to imply the Macca chassis actually isn't a dog and it really is the engine holding it back... ;)

Really? To me those sector times are just another indication the merc chassis is no longer a world beater whereas the ferrari is clearly the class of the field.

Bear in mind that when I wrote the above, I couldn't see the table and was just going by someone saying Mercedes and McLaren were closely matched in the final sector. After actually seeing the table, yeah - it doesn't look so good for Macca. Mercedes weren't good in the final sector, which either means they were sandbagging or aren't as good as they used to be.


I think they were struggling with their new floor in the second test and didn't have a good set up so I think they'll be fine when they get on top of that.

Williams impressive again at the start of a new rule set is good to see.



I dont think either car has all the kit on that will be there in OZ.

Even if they had the intended parts on for some runs, you can bet they have looked at the results and decided there is something they want to change.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:48 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
https://youtu.be/9aVAQXiRvWE

Nothing Rosberg did here qualifies even remotely for getting a telling of.


It could have easily cost his team points. I'm not saying it was awful just that Mercedes should have taken the opportunity to show there drivers that they demand high standards of driving when racing one another. Throughout 2016 it was obvious that both Merc drivers would rather crash than let the other past. That's just not good enough from either of them. Australia was just the first example of this behaviour in 2016. Hamilton then ran Rosberg off in Canada, They crashed into each other in Spain when both of them were taking big risks and again in Austria where Rosberg got a penalty for poor driving. By flexing their muscles a bit Merc management could have possibly avoided these further incidents.

While I agree that they both behaved badly, this started before 2016. The reason Nico was so tremendously peed at Austin in 2015 was because Lewis ran him completely off the track at the start. That's probably when Mercedes should have had words, but to be fair it was probably overshadowed by Lewis' title triumph

I think a big difference in all of this is that Hamilton never caused damage to either car, he played just on the right side of being hard but not reckless unlike Rosberg who to me just seemed to have no limit at times, Barcelona is probably hard for people to see that but Austria shows the clear intent of not letting Hamilton pass no matter what.

You could argue the same about Austin, it's not as though Hamilton left Rosberg any kind of wriggle room. It was hit me or go off

The contact was never going to damage either car though so it was rough but not reckless like we saw at times with Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:27 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
While I agree that they both behaved badly, this started before 2016. The reason Nico was so tremendously peed at Austin in 2015 was because Lewis ran him completely off the track at the start. That's probably when Mercedes should have had words, but to be fair it was probably overshadowed by Lewis' title triumph

I think a big difference in all of this is that Hamilton never caused damage to either car, he played just on the right side of being hard but not reckless unlike Rosberg who to me just seemed to have no limit at times, Barcelona is probably hard for people to see that but Austria shows the clear intent of not letting Hamilton pass no matter what.

You could argue the same about Austin, it's not as though Hamilton left Rosberg any kind of wriggle room. It was hit me or go off

The contact was never going to damage either car though so it was rough but not reckless like we saw at times with Rosberg.

As per your earlier post, there was clear intent not to let Rosberg past no matter what. Or is it only valid when it's not letting Hamilton past?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:37 am 
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Lets be honest, we see far too much of drivers pushing each other off on the exit of corners. It annoys the hell out of me and I don't really understand when it became acceptable. In Austin I felt Hamilton was pretty out of line and it's not good driving in my view and should not be accepted. The only minor defence I will give him is that we do see just about every driver on the grid run opponents off the road in that manor given the chance. Hamilton's move in Austin was getting toward the extreme end though.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:13 am 
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Interesting test analysis by Sergey Sirotkin:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/test-analysis-rating-the-f1-teams-with-renault-s-sergey-sirotkin-883483/

He finds Ferrari more stable & quicker than the Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

Dont work for me


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:43 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
From AMuS.

Best Sector Times.

Image

I can't see the image. Is it just me?

If McLaren and Mercedes are close in the final sector - which is very definitely not a power sector - that would tend to imply the Macca chassis actually isn't a dog and it really is the engine holding it back... ;)


Really? To me those sector times are just another indication the merc chassis is no longer a world beater whereas the ferrari is clearly the class of the field.

Do you have all the information then?

Please share!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
From AMuS.

Best Sector Times.

Image

I can't see the image. Is it just me?

If McLaren and Mercedes are close in the final sector - which is very definitely not a power sector - that would tend to imply the Macca chassis actually isn't a dog and it really is the engine holding it back... ;)


Really? To me those sector times are just another indication the merc chassis is no longer a world beater whereas the ferrari is clearly the class of the field.

Do you have all the information then?

Please share!

I think what (s)he means is that rather than use McLaren's proximity to Mercedes as proof their chassis is good, look at where Mercedes is compared to the rest of the field (i.e. not that impressive). If you're going to read anything from the figures, it's that Ferrari have the best chassis and Mercedes have dropped the ball somewhat (relative to recent years, at least).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:43 pm 
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http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 16538.html

Wheelbases and Rakes if anyone's interested.

Force India's rake is insane, highest on the grid at 2.1°. Red Bull,Williams and McLaren next at 1.7° Mercedes longest wheelbase at 3760mm with Williams shortest at 3545.

Williams with high rake and short Wheelbase is interesting, impressive time in S3 in testing too, 2nd quickest. Tidy little machine I think.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:32 am 
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Yeah the Williams looks like a pretty good car. Probably the 4th best car at the moment, but I wouldnt' be shocked if they are faster than Redbull in OZ, which would likely make them 3rd best. But I still question that driver lineup...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:36 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Yeah the Williams looks like a pretty good car. Probably the 4th best car at the moment, but I wouldnt' be shocked if they are faster than Redbull in OZ, which would likely make them 3rd best. But I still question that driver lineup...


Yeah agree. I think it will depend on this Renault fix if RB can beat Williams.

Completely agree about the driver line up. I hope it isn't another wasted season for Williams like 2012. I think that pairing badly let down the car. I know Pastor got his win but overall not good enough imo.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:50 am 
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I think, my fellows, that you are underestimating Massa. He has a car that suits his driving style perfectly.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:02 am 
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Always keep in mind that Ferrari will generally run their testing and practice about 30kg lighter on fuel than Mercedes and rbr

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:12 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
Always keep in mind that Ferrari will generally run their testing and practice about 30kg lighter on fuel than Mercedes and rbr


and you have proof that they had done so this time as well? It seems as though many knowledgeable people are not seeing it that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:24 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/abmessungen-f1-autos-2017-radstand-hoehe-anstellung-11916538.html

Wheelbases and Rakes if anyone's interested.

Force India's rake is insane, highest on the grid at 2.1°. Red Bull,Williams and McLaren next at 1.7° Mercedes longest wheelbase at 3760mm with Williams shortest at 3545.

Williams with high rake and short Wheelbase is interesting, impressive time in S3 in testing too, 2nd quickest. Tidy little machine I think.


Saw this and wondered why the Merc is so long. They also have the least rake. Certainly doing things their way.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:06 am 
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Blake wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
Always keep in mind that Ferrari will generally run their testing and practice about 30kg lighter on fuel than Mercedes and rbr


and you have proof that they had done so this time as well? It seems as though many knowledgeable people are not seeing it that way.


Not yet, no one knows one way or the other yet. We will in a few days. But going off of historical data I'm going to suspect that it is still the case

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:55 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
Blake wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
Always keep in mind that Ferrari will generally run their testing and practice about 30kg lighter on fuel than Mercedes and rbr


and you have proof that they had done so this time as well? It seems as though many knowledgeable people are not seeing it that way.


Not yet, no one knows one way or the other yet. We will in a few days. But going off of historical data I'm going to suspect that it is still the case


then why would vettel go of the gass ? not because he's light on fuel i think...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:23 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
Always keep in mind that Ferrari will generally run their testing and practice about 30kg lighter on fuel than Mercedes and rbr


I doubt they can do that on a race sim without refueling?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:29 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yeah the Williams looks like a pretty good car. Probably the 4th best car at the moment, but I wouldnt' be shocked if they are faster than Redbull in OZ, which would likely make them 3rd best. But I still question that driver lineup...


Yeah agree. I think it will depend on this Renault fix if RB can beat Williams.

Completely agree about the driver line up. I hope it isn't another wasted season for Williams like 2012. I think that pairing badly let down the car. I know Pastor got his win but overall not good enough imo.


Yes, unfortunately I think the Williams will start the season faster than the Red Bull. It won't look it though.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:10 am 
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mds wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
Always keep in mind that Ferrari will generally run their testing and practice about 30kg lighter on fuel than Mercedes and rbr


I doubt they can do that on a race sim without refueling?


Are we not talking the best sector times just now though, which would be based on their 'hot' runs?

I agree with you re: the long runs, it looks like Ferrari has the edge on Merc who have the edge on RBR coming out of testing.

However, I think the original comparison here is between McLaren & Mercedes on the quickest final sector runs which will be hot laps I believe. The comparison was McLaren are roughly equal to Mercedes so must have an equal (and as such very good) chassis - but Mercedes' time is behind all of RBR, Williams, Ferrari, Toro Rosso & Renault and isn't far ahead of FI or Haas.

Either Mercedes are absolutely junk, which is unlikely.. or their fastest final sector time isn't representative of the car's chassis and is influenced by fuels etc.

Basically we can draw the conclusion that Ferrari were ahead of Merc in testing fairly, but we can not in any way draw the conclusion that McLaren have a chassis equal to Merc without also drawing the conclusion that the likes of Williams and Toro Rosso have somehow pulled a better chassis out the bag.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:34 am 
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Mercedes design for their clutch pedal this has grooves contoured for the drivers fingers to try to increase feel.
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/how-mercedes-will-stop-borking-standing-starts-finger-1793442412

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:04 am 
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Ok so it's only practice one so it means absolutely nothing... But it looks like I might have been right about the Ferrari. I really hope not though, we need them up the front

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:19 am 
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I know its only practice, but, about the new team mate pairings so far:

-Hamilton faster than Bottas
-Hulkenberg a lot faster than Palmer
-Grosjean a lot faster than Magnussen
-Massa faster than Stroll
-Perez a lot faster than Ocon
-Alonso a lot faster than Vandoorne
-Ericsson faster than Wehrlein


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 am 
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Can we consign the phrase "it's only testing" to the bin now. Testing almost always reflects genuine performance come the first race


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:55 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Can we consign the phrase "it's only testing" to the bin now. Testing almost always reflects genuine performance come the first race

Whole testing, not just headline laps, thought after first practice I was worried.

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