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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:10 pm 
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Overtakes per season. Interesting viewing below, note 1996 was the worst year. It is also worth noted that from 2003 on wards the qualifying method made grids a lot more random (single lap) and also from 2003 on wards you had grid penalties and parc ferme which meant fast cars could start from the back of the grid which would have inflated overtaking by quite a bit. Wet races can also skew the stats by quite a bit, the 2016 Brazilian GP broke the record for most overtakes I believe.

2016 saw a jump due to introducing multiple tyres combinations for the race. A good move IMO and I don't view these as artificial but more tactical. Also the Brazilian GP had over a hundred overtakes.

1991- 495
1992- 406
1993- 392
1994- 289
1995- 297
1996- 186
1997- 265
1998- 207
1999- 260
2000- 279
2001- 230
2002- 235
2003- 303
2004- 287
2005- 207
2006- 291
2007- 270
2008- 267
2009- 211
2010- 452
2011- 821
2012- 870
2013- 760
2014- 636
2015- 509
2016- 866

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:24 pm 
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Quality every time. So what if 2016 had a boost in the number of overtakes? Doesn't make it an exciting season by any stretch of the imagination in my book.

I'm the opposite to you. I don't get excited by an overtake that relies on wildly disparate equipment to succeed. I think the Pirelli tyres have had far too big an influence on the racing in recent years and it's lowered the quality of racing IMO


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:32 pm 
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If the overtakes spiked because of the tires, then I wonder what it will be like this year with harder compounds and one-stop races.

That said, I remember a driver saying something to the effect of "What is more memorable to a fisherman? Catching 100 goldfish? Or catching 10 great white sharks?"

DRS passes are no different to passes in NASCAR. Boring. Instantly forgettable.

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Last edited by SnakeSVT2003 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Quality absolutely if I had to pick one.

What's great about using DRS to pass a guy whose tyres have gone off the cliff?. We do still get quality ones in recent years too though, Max at Brazil last year had a few.

It's just the numbers are inflated by a lot of dull easy ones.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:42 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Overtakes per season. Interesting viewing below, note 1996 was the worst year. It is also worth noted that from 2003 on wards the qualifying method made grids a lot more random (single lap) and also from 2003 on wards you had grid penalties and parc ferme which meant fast cars could start from the back of the grid which would have inflated overtaking by quite a bit. Wet races can also skew the stats by quite a bit, the 2016 Brazilian GP broke the record for most overtakes I believe.

2016 saw a jump due to introducing multiple tyres combinations for the race. A good move IMO and I don't view these as artificial but more tactical. Also the Brazilian GP had over a hundred overtakes.

1991- 495
1992- 406
1993- 392
1994- 289
1995- 297
1996- 186
1997- 265
1998- 207
1999- 260
2000- 279
2001- 230
2002- 235
2003- 303
2004- 287
2005- 207
2006- 291
2007- 270
2008- 267
2009- 211
2010- 452
2011- 821
2012- 870
2013- 760
2014- 636
2015- 509
2016- 866



As I asked in the other thread, how are the overtakes counted?

Car 1 in the lead, pits for tyres. Cars 2,3,4,5 pass when he is in the pits, and during the next 2 laps car 1 on fresh tyres pass cars 5,4,3,2, on tyres completely shot? Is this 8 passes, or 4 passes? None of which are real passes

Cars 2,3,4,5, pit for their tyres and cars 6 to 12 pass them in the pit, who in turn get re passed by cars on fresh tyres?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:18 pm 
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Quality. An overtake in itself is not overly exciting, especially if it is a formality.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:22 pm 
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The first three years on this listing are the best. Less aero-dependent cars that could follow, slipstream and pass eachother without need of gimmicks. By the mid 90s, aerodynamics had really taken a toll...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The first three years on this listing are the best. Less aero-dependent cars that could follow, slipstream and pass eachother without need of gimmicks. By the mid 90s, aerodynamics had really taken a toll...


Nope. The spike down in 94 is caused by refuelling.

Note the rise again in 2010.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:47 pm 
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moby wrote:

As I asked in the other thread, how are the overtakes counted?

Car 1 in the lead, pits for tyres. Cars 2,3,4,5 pass when he is in the pits, and during the next 2 laps car 1 on fresh tyres pass cars 5,4,3,2, on tyres completely shot? Is this 8 passes, or 4 passes? None of which are real passes

Cars 2,3,4,5, pit for their tyres and cars 6 to 12 pass them in the pit, who in turn get re passed by cars on fresh tyres?


Passes in the pitlane don't count, so that is four passes.

To sum up:

Car 1 in the lead, pits for tyres. Cars 2,3,4,5 pass when he is in the pits, and during the next 2 laps car 1 on fresh tyres pass cars 5,4,3,2, on tyres completely shot = 4 passes

In the refuelling era, car 1 comes out in 5th on fresh tyres but loaded with fuel and isn't faster than the other cars, who then pit themselves = 0 passes

In a more competitive year than the first example, Car 1 comes out in 5th but only overtakes cars 5 and 4, because it doesn't have as much straightline speed as cars 3 and 2 = 2 passes

The example with the most passes above was potentially the least interesting race. And I know these are hypotheticals, but they're not that far away from reality. The refueling example is accurate. And we've seen many examples where Mercedes come out behind people and just drive past them, while a few years ago, when Red Bull were fastest, they still had a relatively weak engine so couldn't blast past people so easily.

And of course DRS makes it even less interesting.

Quality all the way for me. I'm actually hoping the cars are harder to overtake this year so a Hulkenberg or an Alonso who makes a great start actually has some hope of keeping that place as the race goes on, rather than helplessly losing all their hard work on the straights.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:48 pm 
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moby wrote:
lamo wrote:
Overtakes per season. Interesting viewing below, note 1996 was the worst year. It is also worth noted that from 2003 on wards the qualifying method made grids a lot more random (single lap) and also from 2003 on wards you had grid penalties and parc ferme which meant fast cars could start from the back of the grid which would have inflated overtaking by quite a bit. Wet races can also skew the stats by quite a bit, the 2016 Brazilian GP broke the record for most overtakes I believe.

2016 saw a jump due to introducing multiple tyres combinations for the race. A good move IMO and I don't view these as artificial but more tactical. Also the Brazilian GP had over a hundred overtakes.

1991- 495
1992- 406
1993- 392
1994- 289
1995- 297
1996- 186
1997- 265
1998- 207
1999- 260
2000- 279
2001- 230
2002- 235
2003- 303
2004- 287
2005- 207
2006- 291
2007- 270
2008- 267
2009- 211
2010- 452
2011- 821
2012- 870
2013- 760
2014- 636
2015- 509
2016- 866



As I asked in the other thread, how are the overtakes counted?

Car 1 in the lead, pits for tyres. Cars 2,3,4,5 pass when he is in the pits, and during the next 2 laps car 1 on fresh tyres pass cars 5,4,3,2, on tyres completely shot? Is this 8 passes, or 4 passes? None of which are real passes

Cars 2,3,4,5, pit for their tyres and cars 6 to 12 pass them in the pit, who in turn get re passed by cars on fresh tyres?

Yeah you have to wonder exactly how these overtakes are measured because I can't remember the 2000's being flush with 16 overtakes per race.

Now fast forward to now, I can't say we are inundated with overtaking especially amongst the leading cars, I guess it shows how little positions changed on the track a decade ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The first three years on this listing are the best. Less aero-dependent cars that could follow, slipstream and pass eachother without need of gimmicks. By the mid 90s, aerodynamics had really taken a toll...


Nope. The spike down in 94 is caused by refuelling.

Note the rise again in 2010.

No that's not entirely true actually. The cars were completely changed in 1994. Electronic driver aids were banned and as the season went on and tragedy took the lives of two drivers, there were other changes made to slow the cars down now that they did not have the fancy electronics. More than anything, the impact of aerodynamics was increasing dramatically year on year. When Newey came to Williams in 1991, he started a new culture in which aerodynamics were seen as the way to gain performance. This seems obvious to modern fans but prior to that, aerodynamics were not at the forefront of how teams made improvements. Mostly it was about engine upgrades and setup breakthroughs. You can see the steep decline in overtakes right from 91' to 92'. By 1994, this new paradigm had really taken hold. I think refueling is a bit of a red herring as something to blame for a lack of overtaking. It does tend to lead to teams using strategy more than on-track overtakes but it's not the end-all-be-all.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The first three years on this listing are the best. Less aero-dependent cars that could follow, slipstream and pass eachother without need of gimmicks. By the mid 90s, aerodynamics had really taken a toll...


Nope. The spike down in 94 is caused by refuelling.

Note the rise again in 2010.

Good point on the rise between 2009 and 2010.

2010 had decent tyres and no DRS yet had 450 overtakes. Last year had 850, do we think that we could put 400 overtakes down to gimmicks?

Should we be aiming for 2010, roughly 4-500 overtakes but all of them 'unaided'? It's an interesting question IMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:21 am 
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Something else just occurred to me :twisted:

If the leader brakes down, is that 19 passes? Is reliability influencing the number of passes?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:31 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The first three years on this listing are the best. Less aero-dependent cars that could follow, slipstream and pass eachother without need of gimmicks. By the mid 90s, aerodynamics had really taken a toll...


Nope. The spike down in 94 is caused by refuelling.

Note the rise again in 2010.

No that's not entirely true actually. The cars were completely changed in 1994. Electronic driver aids were banned and as the season went on and tragedy took the lives of two drivers, there were other changes made to slow the cars down now that they did not have the fancy electronics. More than anything, the impact of aerodynamics was increasing dramatically year on year. When Newey came to Williams in 1991, he started a new culture in which aerodynamics were seen as the way to gain performance. This seems obvious to modern fans but prior to that, aerodynamics were not at the forefront of how teams made improvements. Mostly it was about engine upgrades and setup breakthroughs. You can see the steep decline in overtakes right from 91' to 92'. By 1994, this new paradigm had really taken hold. I think refueling is a bit of a red herring as something to blame for a lack of overtaking. It does tend to lead to teams using strategy more than on-track overtakes but it's not the end-all-be-all.


Hmmmm, maybe. Just seems to much of a coincidence that we had a huge jump down in 94 when refuelling became legal and a huge jump back up again when it was banned in 2010.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:42 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The first three years on this listing are the best. Less aero-dependent cars that could follow, slipstream and pass eachother without need of gimmicks. By the mid 90s, aerodynamics had really taken a toll...


Nope. The spike down in 94 is caused by refuelling.

Note the rise again in 2010.

No that's not entirely true actually. The cars were completely changed in 1994. Electronic driver aids were banned and as the season went on and tragedy took the lives of two drivers, there were other changes made to slow the cars down now that they did not have the fancy electronics. More than anything, the impact of aerodynamics was increasing dramatically year on year. When Newey came to Williams in 1991, he started a new culture in which aerodynamics were seen as the way to gain performance. This seems obvious to modern fans but prior to that, aerodynamics were not at the forefront of how teams made improvements. Mostly it was about engine upgrades and setup breakthroughs. You can see the steep decline in overtakes right from 91' to 92'. By 1994, this new paradigm had really taken hold. I think refueling is a bit of a red herring as something to blame for a lack of overtaking. It does tend to lead to teams using strategy more than on-track overtakes but it's not the end-all-be-all.


Hmmmm, maybe. Just seems to much of a coincidence that we had a huge jump down in 94 when refuelling became legal and a huge jump back up again when it was banned in 2010.


I'm pretty sure it's because of refuelling. The vast majority of overtakes these days are cars on fresh tyres overtaking cars on worn tyres. In refuelling days, the cars on fresh tyres would also be carrying more fuel, so there was never the same speed differential.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:15 am 
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For me - quality.

To make racing better, you would think the priority would be to build the best race car, and that would fit with the absolute best race cars being in F1.

They don't do that. They advertise fuel saving and energy recover systems. They make cars that can press themselves to the track so hard, that you could drive them upside down along large sewage pipes (as long as there wasn't another car just in front of them).

The testing does give the first indications of how good the 2017 cars are as race cars.

Being faster in terms of lap times doesn't make a car a better race car.
Circuits are also part of the picture - and the problem.
The circuits and the cars have to both be suitable for the same purpose. The cars have to be the best race cars they can be - on the circuits they have to race on. Then the circuits have to be improved to help racing with that type of car.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:52 am 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
That said, I remember a driver saying something to the effect of "What is more memorable to a fisherman? Catching 100 goldfish? Or catching 10 great white sharks?"


I have seen an interview with Eddie Irvine who quoted a very similar line to what you have mentioned.

Quality for me all day.

I think quantity appeals more to the casual viewer and quality to the ardent fan, and this I believe is one of the problems with F1. I do not think you can cater for all tastes and preferences without one group losing out. I think the key is balance between the two and if I had the answer for that I wouldn't be employed in my current job. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:01 am 
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Quality obviously.

With a big caveat though. I don't want overtaking to be impossible with a long train of cars, and the race be determined in the pits. I also don't want what we have had in recent years where drivers would sometimes just wait for the DRS zone and blast past.

There must be a happy medium somewhere!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:57 pm 
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An overtake is a change of position but does not include...

Passes made on the first lap.
Passes made by pit stops.
Passes made by a car retiring.
Passes made by a car spinning and rejoining.

This is DRS done correctly for me - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UcJ_iaK0_4

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:25 pm 
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I think everybody agrees quality over quantity, but if you go back to 2007/2008 we had Ferrari and Mclaren only able to overtake each other once person season.

Hamilton on Raikkonen in Monza 2007 - aided by Hamilton having new soft tyres vs Kimi on old hards
Hamilton on Raikkonen in Turkey 2008 - aided by Hamilton by light as he was 3 stopping

Quantity (in the dry) was essentially once per season among the podium contenders. I think we must have had at least 20 overtakes for podium positions last season. I would take last season over 2005-2008, any day.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:36 pm 
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lamo wrote:
I think everybody agrees quality over quantity, but if you go back to 2007/2008 we had Ferrari and Mclaren only able to overtake each other once person season.

Hamilton on Raikkonen in Monza 2007 - aided by Hamilton having new soft tyres vs Kimi on old hards
While that was a fine pass, let's also not forget Räikkönen had suffered a huge crash in practice. I don't know whether it affected his defensive posture, but he can't have been 100%. Still, it was a fine pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g95zxNLqvfI YouTube

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Good stats Iamo and interesting topic and discussion. :thumbup:

I preferred 2007-2008 to the last three seasons (2014-2016), because there were two teams and three/four drivers fighting at the front in most races. In 2007 no-one else got a win, but in 2009 there were a few outlier wins too, much like 2014 and 2015.

Another reason there were so few overtakes then, was that the four packages were so close-matched in speed. As you or some one pointed out in another thread (from memory?) today a car needs about 1.5 to 2.0 secs advantage to overtake another.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:16 pm 
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lamo wrote:
I think everybody agrees quality over quantity, but if you go back to 2007/2008 we had Ferrari and Mclaren only able to overtake each other once person season.

Hamilton on Raikkonen in Monza 2007 - aided by Hamilton having new soft tyres vs Kimi on old hards
Hamilton on Raikkonen in Turkey 2008 - aided by Hamilton by light as he was 3 stopping

Quantity (in the dry) was essentially once per season among the podium contenders. I think we must have had at least 20 overtakes for podium positions last season. I would take last season over 2005-2008, any day.

In 2008 Hamilton made a pass on Massa in Turkey, not Raikkonen. He also made a pass on Massa in Germany that year though.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:35 pm 
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More races per season also having an impact on the stats? How many races in 94 to 2016?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:50 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think everybody agrees quality over quantity, but if you go back to 2007/2008 we had Ferrari and Mclaren only able to overtake each other once person season.

Hamilton on Raikkonen in Monza 2007 - aided by Hamilton having new soft tyres vs Kimi on old hards
Hamilton on Raikkonen in Turkey 2008 - aided by Hamilton by light as he was 3 stopping

Quantity (in the dry) was essentially once per season among the podium contenders. I think we must have had at least 20 overtakes for podium positions last season. I would take last season over 2005-2008, any day.

In 2008 Hamilton made a pass on Massa in Turkey, not Raikkonen. He also made a pass on Massa in Germany that year though.

Thanks for the correction, I knew it was a Ferrari in Turkey. Germany was also Hamilton on new tyres vs Massa on old tyres too.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think everybody agrees quality over quantity, but if you go back to 2007/2008 we had Ferrari and Mclaren only able to overtake each other once person season.

Hamilton on Raikkonen in Monza 2007 - aided by Hamilton having new soft tyres vs Kimi on old hards
Hamilton on Raikkonen in Turkey 2008 - aided by Hamilton by light as he was 3 stopping

Quantity (in the dry) was essentially once per season among the podium contenders. I think we must have had at least 20 overtakes for podium positions last season. I would take last season over 2005-2008, any day.

In 2008 Hamilton made a pass on Massa in Turkey, not Raikkonen. He also made a pass on Massa in Germany that year though.

Thanks for the correction, I knew it was a Ferrari in Turkey. Germany was also Hamilton on new tyres vs Massa on old tyres too.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Ruste13 wrote:
More races per season also having an impact on the stats? How many races in 94 to 2016?


16 > 21

The last two seasons would be 380 and 650 if they were 16 rounds.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Well, if overtaking only takes place in the pits and the rest is a train of cars merely waiting for pit stops - then we have neither quality nor quantity ...
I really hope it won't be like that.

Btw, several teams fighting for the championships is different from numbers of overtaking. Dominance can happen anyway. Just imagine how boring the last couple of seasons would have been with no fight for the top and no overtaking further down the grid. Viewing and attendance figures would have tumbled even more ...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:53 pm 
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I guess we can pretty much all agree that all DRS did was NASCARize F1. If you want a million overtakes per race, look no further than oval racing.

In circuit racing, overtakes have to be rare because most tracks have only a couple overtaking points. While overtakes in NASCAR and IndyCar oval racing are like successful shots in basketball, overtakes in F1 should be more like goals in football: difficult to happen but, when they do, they're decisive.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:12 am 
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lamo wrote:
An overtake is a change of position but does not include...

Passes made on the first lap.
Passes made by pit stops.
Passes made by a car retiring.
Passes made by a car spinning and rejoining.

This is DRS done correctly for me - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UcJ_iaK0_4


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:50 am 
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Reasonable quality together with reasonable quantity.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:35 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
In 2008 Hamilton made a pass on Massa in Turkey, not Raikkonen. He also made a pass on Massa in Germany that year though.

Was that when he drove Massa off the track twice in the space of three corners?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:43 am 
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Fiki wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In 2008 Hamilton made a pass on Massa in Turkey, not Raikkonen. He also made a pass on Massa in Germany that year though.

Was that when he drove Massa off the track twice in the space of three corners?


Is that relevant?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Its interesting with regards to overtaking at that hairpin.

Germany 2008;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yifQ2sqNKR4

2008 - that move by Hamilton is fine and legal
2012 - Vettel gets pushed out (like Massa was) and re-overtakes and HE gets a penalty
2016 - Rosberg (although on entry) pushes a car out and HE gets penalised. Although not directly comparable as it was on entry.

I still think exit "crowd out" is perfectly legal, I don't recall a driver getting penalised for that?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Vettel was penalised because he passed Button off the track.

Rosberg was penalised because he made no attempt to go anywhere near the apex.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think everybody agrees quality over quantity, but if you go back to 2007/2008 we had Ferrari and Mclaren only able to overtake each other once person season.

Hamilton on Raikkonen in Monza 2007 - aided by Hamilton having new soft tyres vs Kimi on old hards
While that was a fine pass, let's also not forget Räikkönen had suffered a huge crash in practice. I don't know whether it affected his defensive posture, but he can't have been 100%. Still, it was a fine pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g95zxNLqvfI YouTube



IIRC he had an issue with his neck after the crash. He was fine to race but he couldn't use his mirrors as effectively under braking, so he was basically a sitting duck.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:41 am 
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Both quantity and quality... When you have quantity, you have quality aswell, you will always have some quality overtakes and some bad ones. Those are complementary and not mutually exclusive


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:41 am 
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the other issue is if the overtakes 'mean' anything - I mean - tyre change and overtake a backmarker (as per last few years) - who cares?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:50 am 
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Make it all about the tyres, and remove blooming DRS then see where we are with it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:14 am 
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The lower wear of the tyres may have an advantageous affect on overtakes - if the 'marbles' have less affect on the tyre/track interaction off line.


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