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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:30 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Formula 1 should always look to position itself at the cutting edge of technology.

Going back to V8 or V10 engines doesn't fit in with that image.



Telling the engine manufacturers what configuration there engine must be doesn't fit with that image either. You are limiting the possibilities in those areas with restrictions.
Obviously there needs to be some rules, for parity.
Give them a maximum engine displacement, a max boost pressure or an intake restrictor, fuel tank volume limit and let them go to town. Any energy storage device must be depleted immediately before the car is started on the grid.
I think it would be lovely to have different cars sound considerably different.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:50 am 
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I guess the car culture is really a dying breed in society if people have to ask why the engine sound matters. I can't imagine any car guy (or girl), who has actually experienced the powerful reverberations of a race car engine in a real life setting, to have any doubts about how it adds to the experience.

This is my go-to video for real life F1 sound. If you max out your speakers, provided they are powerful, you can sort of approximate what it feels like in the flesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj8S-ig_NiA


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:15 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
I guess the car culture is really a dying breed in society if people have to ask why the engine sound matters. I can't imagine any car guy (or girl), who has actually experienced the powerful reverberations of a race car engine in a real life setting, to have any doubts about how it adds to the experience.

This is my go-to video for real life F1 sound. If you max out your speakers, provided they are powerful, you can sort of approximate what it feels like in the flesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj8S-ig_NiA

Car culture may be a dying breed, but car culture is also more complex than 'I want an engine that will blow my eardrums'. Just like loving music isn't all about the loudest sound you can get, enjoying engine sound doesn't require it to be ridiculously loud either. There are people who like to go to concerts so loud they can't hear for a day afterwards, but there are also people who enjoy being able to properly realize the nuances of the music without hearing protection or any fear of damage.

How hard is it for you to wrap your head around the idea that people can enjoy the sound of an engine and still think the old breed of F1 engines were simply too loud?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:52 pm 
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I'm not somebody with a particular fondness for the volume of engines, but I do think there's something to be said for the unearthly scream. The video posted is an interesting juxtapostition with the new car and the old engine sound. Mostly I think the newer engines sound better with more texture, but I wouldn't be at all adverse to them having more of a scream to them either. It's a cool effect particularly as they get going and head off into the distance.

I also do think that the new engines are not only nicer sounding but also louder than they seem on TV in person. They're definitely still loud enough that I need to wear earplugs or I'll quickly become very uncomfortable, and they really do have some interesting texture to them. I hope that the sound engineers will start mixing that in better for TV broadcasts, because even with the raw sound for FP1 and FP3 (as we get it hear in America, at least, with no announcers and not actually shown on TV) the engines usually sound better than they do in the qualifying and race broadcasts, and I think that's what a lot of people are basing their complaints on.

SmoothRide wrote:
I guess the car culture is really a dying breed in society if people have to ask why the engine sound matters. I can't imagine any car guy (or girl), who has actually experienced the powerful reverberations of a race car engine in a real life setting, to have any doubts about how it adds to the experience.

This is my go-to video for real life F1 sound. If you max out your speakers, provided they are powerful, you can sort of approximate what it feels like in the flesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj8S-ig_NiA

Very few people are actually asking why the engine sound matters. Most people agree that it does add to the experience. Where people are differing is in what way it matters; many people don't care about the sheer volume, some people prefer less volume, and some people prefer more -- but just about everybody has some preference on the actual quality of the sound.

Personally, I am much happier if I am able to watch a race in person without my ears hurting and without them ringing or feeling uncomfortable for days afterwards. It's hard to enjoy a race, or anything else, if one's ears are hurting and one is developing a headache. And yes, I do still wear ear plugs when attending races, because they're still loud enough that I need to. I'd personally be happier if I didn't have to, but I realise that I do have over-sensitive hearing so I'll have to do that when other people don't have to. I don't really understand why anyone who no longer has to wear ear protection to attend races is unhappy about that; it seems like it'd be a good thing, really, being able to actually hear everything with your own ears and nothing in the way.

That said, I do love the sound of a powerful engine. Heck, that's one of the reasons I chose my current car -- I really like the V8 rumble. I enjoy the quality of the sound and the texture to the sound, but I don't enjoy any sound at uncomfortable volume -- it's uncomfortable. That goes for everything. Music, fireworks, engine sound -- I appreciate them all quite a bit when they're at a relatively comfortable volume, but I can't appreciate them when they're so loud that they just become noise and hurt my ears. It surprises me that so many people apparently feel differently, although I suppose that some of it is probably people with a higher threshold of noise before the discomfort kicks in.

As far as the reverberations go, that's also not something that's universally enjoyed. I do know that some people really love that feeling, but personally, I actually dislike being able to feel the sound. It's not a pleasant feeling to me. I can tolerate it, and it doesn't bother me as much as pain in the ears does (because it's not actually painful), but it's definitely not something that I consider a plus. Sure, it can be impressive, but that doesn't necessarily make it enjoyable, and at least for me that volume of sound is by no means required for something to be impressive. As a necessary byproduct of the most powerful engine it's an acceptable side effect, but if it is unnecessary, I see no reason at all to try to kick up the volume. It's not needed, and it is a barrier for some people to attend races, and for some places to want to host them. Focusing on getting an awesome texture for the engine noise I can see, but to me, the best thing is to just go with whatever is the natural byproduct of the most powerful engine built within the regulations -- much like with the aero rules. I want to see and hear the car that's to the limit of the regulations, not the car that's designed to be beautiful and loud. If it happens to look aggressive and have a nice, textured engine sound, that's a plus... but so long as it's fast and innovative, I'm not going to complain if it does neither of those things. I may complain if it's so loud that I can't actually attend a race without pain, and I sure as heck would rather be able to actually hear what's going on than have to clap on ear defenders so I can get through a race without pain -- but if that's what I have to do because that's the result of the most powerful engine within the regulations, I'll accept it as the price to pay to see that.

The long and the short of it is that people who very much enjoy the same experience (attending a race in person) do so for many different reasons, and different aspects of the experience are important to different people. Something that is an indispensible part of F1 to one person isn't necessarily going to be so to another person. For myself, I can't imagine not finding the development aspect of F1 to be central to the sport, but I know there are people out there who disagree or even would prefer that wasn't part of it. In person, I'm more about the visuals and the experience of being able to see the cars in person, but I do definitely find a quality engine sound to be a plus -- I just disagree completely with some people on what that is.

Also, people in general are more aware of the longterm hearing damage that being exposed to such loud sounds can cause now than they used to be, and less people are going to be eager or even willing to expose themselves to that than they were. That's also extending to noise regulations. Especially with all that, it just doesn't make sense to pursue engine volume as a goal. High quality engine sound, sure, but not just sheer noise output.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:34 pm 
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When it comes to sound and the 'pressure' generated by it - there is no substitute for cubic inches. The biggest reason the current ICE sound so bad is that even a 1.5 L naturally aspirated engine can't produce a sound you can FEEL. Throw a turbo on the exhaust and even less pressure. Lets put engines in F1 4.0L, 5.0L or even 6.0L then you get some sound pressure generated, even with turbos tacked on.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:47 pm 
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I dont know why but I thought of music venues.

Where there is a good band, there is good sound.

Where the band is anot very good, they crank it up as far as they can to try and compensate :D


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:42 am 
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Exediron wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
I guess the car culture is really a dying breed in society if people have to ask why the engine sound matters. I can't imagine any car guy (or girl), who has actually experienced the powerful reverberations of a race car engine in a real life setting, to have any doubts about how it adds to the experience.

This is my go-to video for real life F1 sound. If you max out your speakers, provided they are powerful, you can sort of approximate what it feels like in the flesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj8S-ig_NiA

Car culture may be a dying breed, but car culture is also more complex than 'I want an engine that will blow my eardrums'. Just like loving music isn't all about the loudest sound you can get, enjoying engine sound doesn't require it to be ridiculously loud either. There are people who like to go to concerts so loud they can't hear for a day afterwards, but there are also people who enjoy being able to properly realize the nuances of the music without hearing protection or any fear of damage.

How hard is it for you to wrap your head around the idea that people can enjoy the sound of an engine and still think the old breed of F1 engines were simply too loud?


so we should cater for the minority who prefer these pathetic excuses for engines? should we cater for the people who (going back to the v10 era for example) would go to races and complain they are too loud. maybe dont go if its too loud.

the people who think they are too loud can wear ear plugs etc. the people who think they are too quiet are screwed. thats fair.

you do see to portray the moral high ground on this subject for some strange reason, like we are all thugs for wanting loud engines.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:43 am 
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Exediron wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
I guess the car culture is really a dying breed in society if people have to ask why the engine sound matters. I can't imagine any car guy (or girl), who has actually experienced the powerful reverberations of a race car engine in a real life setting, to have any doubts about how it adds to the experience.

This is my go-to video for real life F1 sound. If you max out your speakers, provided they are powerful, you can sort of approximate what it feels like in the flesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj8S-ig_NiA

Car culture may be a dying breed, but car culture is also more complex than 'I want an engine that will blow my eardrums'. Just like loving music isn't all about the loudest sound you can get, enjoying engine sound doesn't require it to be ridiculously loud either. There are people who like to go to concerts so loud they can't hear for a day afterwards, but there are also people who enjoy being able to properly realize the nuances of the music without hearing protection or any fear of damage.

How hard is it for you to wrap your head around the idea that people can enjoy the sound of an engine and still think the old breed of F1 engines were simply too loud?


It's very easy for me. These new turbo-powered units sound Ok, albeit not spectacular. One thing that I can vouch for is that F1 cannot go in the route of Formula E -- the sound of screeching tires mixed in with South Korean techno-pop come a bit short when it comes to delivering the goods.

We have yet to see a modern engine that combines power and auditory experience worth a heck.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:06 am 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
you do see to portray the moral high ground on this subject for some strange reason, like we are all thugs for wanting loud engines.

Well, to be honest that's not too far from how I feel. I really dislike the societal tendency for everything to be loud for the sake of being loud, and I don't view it as a positive at all. But more importantly I consider the sound to be just a small element of Formula 1, and people like you who try to make it the most important part rub me the wrong way. There will always be opportunities for you to listen to extremely loud engines, and in my opinion if the engines being quieter is enough to destroy your enjoyment of Formula 1 you were never in the right sport.

Your argument of 'if it's too loud, just don't go' applies equally well to you. If it's too quiet, just don't go.

At the end of the day, Formula 1 for me is a technological competition. I cannot agree with any argument that boils down to 'let's make F1 more primitive so I can make myself happy and a lot of people uncomfortable!' which is what your position reads like to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:46 am 
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Sound is good and enriches the experience. This is motor racing however, and not music.

I tend to really like sound when listening to music or trying to hear interviews or trying to hear other people talk to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:08 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
you do see to portray the moral high ground on this subject for some strange reason, like we are all thugs for wanting loud engines.

Well, to be honest that's not too far from how I feel. I really dislike the societal tendency for everything to be loud for the sake of being loud, and I don't view it as a positive at all. But more importantly I consider the sound to be just a small element of Formula 1, and people like you who try to make it the most important part rub me the wrong way. There will always be opportunities for you to listen to extremely loud engines, and in my opinion if the engines being quieter is enough to destroy your enjoyment of Formula 1 you were never in the right sport.

Your argument of 'if it's too loud, just don't go' applies equally well to you. If it's too quiet, just don't go.

At the end of the day, Formula 1 for me is a technological competition. I cannot agree with any argument that boils down to 'let's make F1 more primitive so I can make myself happy and a lot of people uncomfortable!' which is what your position reads like to me.


Firstly i would not be making just myself happy but a majority of people going by polls that i have seen. so if there was a vote you would lose.

I never said it was the most important part. but it is an important part that is now missing. It isnt a case of louder the better, but todays level of noise is way too low, as has been accepted by almost everyone involved in f1 hence trying to make them louder. the reason they sound pathetic is also because they sound like they are not being strained in any way. they are just cruising around on a wave of torque and thats what it sounds like. the v10s sounded as though they were being tortured within an inch of their lives and you could feel the vibrations and energy that they had trackside.

and yes i wont go again until the engines enhance the experience again.

I was never in the right sport for liking loud engines? really. again i think you would be in a minority with that view.

also please tell me where i can hear 3l v10s at 20k rpm.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:39 pm 
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I miss the old engines that would put the fear of God in you when they'd come screaming by...but even back then you're kidding yourself if you think the noise from the cars at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve were louder than the traffic you're walking around. Of course you could hear them (I used to skip P1, so would hear them from Rue Coursol where I stayed at a buddy's place) but it was audbile, not hearing damage-inducing. If everything else went perfectly quiet and you were hearing 40dB of ambient noise, from downtown the cars will barely increase that by 5-10 dBs.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:05 pm 
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dobyblue wrote:
I miss the old engines that would put the fear of God in you when they'd come screaming by...but even back then you're kidding yourself if you think the noise from the cars at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve were louder than the traffic you're walking around. Of course you could hear them (I used to skip P1, so would hear them from Rue Coursol where I stayed at a buddy's place) but it was audbile, not hearing damage-inducing. If everything else went perfectly quiet and you were hearing 40dB of ambient noise, from downtown the cars will barely increase that by 5-10 dBs.

I didn't say it would be damaging in the city, just annoying. It's certainly damaging at the track. And Montreal, having a big water barrier between the circuit and the city, would presumably actually be one of the quieter city circuits. I can recall reading about many people in Melbourne being quite unhappy with the noise level, for example.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:27 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
I guess the car culture is really a dying breed in society if people have to ask why the engine sound matters. I can't imagine any car guy (or girl), who has actually experienced the powerful reverberations of a race car engine in a real life setting, to have any doubts about how it adds to the experience.

This is my go-to video for real life F1 sound. If you max out your speakers, provided they are powerful, you can sort of approximate what it feels like in the flesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj8S-ig_NiA


Couldn't have said it better. If you do not see what is wrong with the current F1 hybrid sound you simply aren't a true car guy/girl. Sorry but that is the way I feel about it, and very strongly I might add.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:35 am 
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Exediron wrote:
dobyblue wrote:
I miss the old engines that would put the fear of God in you when they'd come screaming by...but even back then you're kidding yourself if you think the noise from the cars at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve were louder than the traffic you're walking around. Of course you could hear them (I used to skip P1, so would hear them from Rue Coursol where I stayed at a buddy's place) but it was audbile, not hearing damage-inducing. If everything else went perfectly quiet and you were hearing 40dB of ambient noise, from downtown the cars will barely increase that by 5-10 dBs.

I didn't say it would be damaging in the city, just annoying. It's certainly damaging at the track. And Montreal, having a big water barrier between the circuit and the city, would presumably actually be one of the quieter city circuits. I can recall reading about many people in Melbourne being quite unhappy with the noise level, for example.


I live about 6 kilometres from the circuit.
The old cars could be easily heard from my place. The new ones only just!

You are right there was strong protesting from the locals for many years. It takes about 3 months to set up the circuit and the dismantle it again. So it is just not the noise they complain about.
However they do seem to have stopped protesting with the new engines.

On the engines, I remember reading some analysis on gear change revs with most happening at around 11,500 rpm and occasionally up to 12,000 rpm.
It seems the fuel flow of 100kg/hr is the limiting factor.
The regs limit the max revs to 15,000 rpm vs 18,000 rpm in the V8 era.

15k/12k = 1.25 or 25% more revs.
So does that mean if the fuel flow was increased to 125kg/hr, then they could the achieve the max revs allowed under the regs?
How much more power and noise would these engine generate if they could reach 15,000 rpm?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
There will always be opportunities for you to listen to extremely loud engines


Really? Where can one watch road racing and hear sounds like the old V-10's and V-8s? I have never once heard anything remotely the same as this at any form of racing.

Exediron wrote:


Your argument of 'if it's too loud, just don't go' applies equally well to you. If it's too quiet, just don't go.



Very true. I, along with many, simply stopped going to races. Today's F1 cars sound no different at all than CART cars did back during the turbo era. Mildly interesting, but not at all thrilling.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:27 pm 
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moby wrote:
I dont know why but I thought of music venues.

Where there is a good band, there is good sound.

Where the band is anot very good, they crank it up as far as they can to try and compensate :D


Some of the best concerts I've ever been to have been ear shatteringly loud.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:29 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Formula 1 should always look to position itself at the cutting edge of technology.

Going back to V8 or V10 engines doesn't fit in with that image.


You dont think getting a V-10 engine to rev to nearly 20,000 RPM's for 2 hours and not blowing up isn't cutting edge technology?

I've got news for you, it takes an incredible amount of expertise in material science to construct engines that can handle that level of speed and power.

You want low tech engines, look at NASCAR, not F1. F1 engines from the '80s and '90s were very much high tech engines.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
I dont know why but I thought of music venues.

Where there is a good band, there is good sound.

Where the band is anot very good, they crank it up as far as they can to try and compensate :D


Some of the best concerts I've ever been to have been ear shatteringly loud.


My audiologist's motto is if you want to hear at 85, keep it at 85dB! I just picked up custom molded earplugs for concerts because the Etymotic ER20s are a PITA to get seated right and customs ones, despite costing 15x as much, go in super easy and really are terrific at allowing the sizzle of the hi-hats and cymbals as well as the esses of vocals to come through clearly vs. foam plugs that let too much bass through and muffle treble.

For F1, even though it's not near the same SPL levels as it was in 2000, I take Speedo swimmer's silicone earplugs and I've sat trackside front row in Montreal since 2004. I wish I had been taking them SINCE 2004, but having suffered from tinnitus since 2009 (combination of Alice in Chains in 2009 at The Opera House and early F1 days thinking "huh, I don't need earplugs, I'm macho") I now take great care to limit my noise to 85dB average. The odd peak of 95 or so isn't going to damage you but several peaks of 100dB+ over 3 days at the track and 7+ hours of F1 along with the Ferrari Challenge and other events, that will definitely damage your high frequency hearing in a hurry. At 43 I've realized that I want to still enjoy listening to my record, SACD, Blu-ray, CD, etc., collection when I'm 70. I'm going to use the Decibel 10 app (not as accurate as a good SPL meter obviously, but will give a rough idea) to measure the average levels during P1 this year. Will show peak levels too. I'm interested to see both from GS24 at the apex of the exit of the hairpin in the front row.

I've compared silicone swimmer's ear plugs to circumaural industrial protection and there really isn't much in it at the track, because there isn't a thundering amount of low frequency energy like there can be at rock concerts from the bass guitar and kick drum/low tom amplification, the silicone earplugs work fantastic for reducing mids and highs. They're comfortable, easy to fit due to being malleable, easy to store and not clunky like big industrial cans and only $5.99 at Sportchek; they're a must have item for an F1 week-end in my book.

Hopefully everyone here is smart enough to protect their hearing, tinnitus is a real mother effer.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:45 pm 
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dobyblue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
I dont know why but I thought of music venues.

Where there is a good band, there is good sound.

Where the band is anot very good, they crank it up as far as they can to try and compensate :D


Some of the best concerts I've ever been to have been ear shatteringly loud.


My audiologist's motto is if you want to hear at 85, keep it at 85dB! I just picked up custom molded earplugs for concerts because the Etymotic ER20s are a PITA to get seated right and customs ones, despite costing 15x as much, go in super easy and really are terrific at allowing the sizzle of the hi-hats and cymbals as well as the esses of vocals to come through clearly vs. foam plugs that let too much bass through and muffle treble.

For F1, even though it's not near the same SPL levels as it was in 2000, I take Speedo swimmer's silicone earplugs and I've sat trackside front row in Montreal since 2004. I wish I had been taking them SINCE 2004, but having suffered from tinnitus since 2009 (combination of Alice in Chains in 2009 at The Opera House and early F1 days thinking "huh, I don't need earplugs, I'm macho") I now take great care to limit my noise to 85dB average. The odd peak of 95 or so isn't going to damage you but several peaks of 100dB+ over 3 days at the track and 7+ hours of F1 along with the Ferrari Challenge and other events, that will definitely damage your high frequency hearing in a hurry. At 43 I've realized that I want to still enjoy listening to my record, SACD, Blu-ray, CD, etc., collection when I'm 70. I'm going to use the Decibel 10 app (not as accurate as a good SPL meter obviously, but will give a rough idea) to measure the average levels during P1 this year. Will show peak levels too. I'm interested to see both from GS24 at the apex of the exit of the hairpin in the front row.

I've compared silicone swimmer's ear plugs to circumaural industrial protection and there really isn't much in it at the track, because there isn't a thundering amount of low frequency energy like there can be at rock concerts from the bass guitar and kick drum/low tom amplification, the silicone earplugs work fantastic for reducing mids and highs. They're comfortable, easy to fit due to being malleable, easy to store and not clunky like big industrial cans and only $5.99 at Sportchek; they're a must have item for an F1 week-end in my book.



Hopefully everyone here is smart enough to protect their hearing, tinnitus is a real mother effer.


I use white tak :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:53 pm 
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lol, I have a pretty good idea what that is remembering blu tack from UK boarding school days holding up all my posters in my dorm room.

Yeah, that's not going in my ears! 8O


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:37 pm 
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having just watched the australian grand prix from 2012 on dailymotion, i quickly grew tired of the same mosquito squealing engines and it became quite irritating. however it kind of made it seem more exciting than the recent v6 races. made it seem like they were pushing harder.

v6 races are definitely more pleasant on tv, but they were like driving in slow motion. it looked like a game of chess


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:41 pm 
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dobyblue wrote:


Hopefully everyone here is smart enough to protect their hearing, tinnitus is a real mother effer.


Very smart advice. I have a nasty case of tinnitus, but not from F1. Rather it's from 200 or more rock concerts i went to while growing up. I wish I knew then what I know now. I always, ALWAYS wore ear plugs when at F1 races back during the "real" engine era. Today, the current engines don't bother my ears at all so it would not be necessary should I find myself at a grand prix, which is highly unlikely unless the engine formula changes.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:14 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Formula 1 should always look to position itself at the cutting edge of technology.

Going back to V8 or V10 engines doesn't fit in with that image.

You dont think getting a V-10 engine to rev to nearly 20,000 RPM's for 2 hours and not blowing up isn't cutting edge technology?

I've got news for you, it takes an incredible amount of expertise in material science to construct engines that can handle that level of speed and power.

You want low tech engines, look at NASCAR, not F1. F1 engines from the '80s and '90s were very much high tech engines.

Well, sure they were - in the 80s and 90s. But anything that was around in the 80s or 90s isn't cutting edge technology now, by definition. The internal combustion engine is a very mature technology; there's not much room for cutting edge technology in something like that.

dobyblue wrote:
For F1, even though it's not near the same SPL levels as it was in 2000, I take Speedo swimmer's silicone earplugs and I've sat trackside front row in Montreal since 2004. I wish I had been taking them SINCE 2004, but having suffered from tinnitus since 2009 (combination of Alice in Chains in 2009 at The Opera House and early F1 days thinking "huh, I don't need earplugs, I'm macho") I now take great care to limit my noise to 85dB average. The odd peak of 95 or so isn't going to damage you but several peaks of 100dB+ over 3 days at the track and 7+ hours of F1 along with the Ferrari Challenge and other events, that will definitely damage your high frequency hearing in a hurry. At 43 I've realized that I want to still enjoy listening to my record, SACD, Blu-ray, CD, etc., collection when I'm 70. I'm going to use the Decibel 10 app (not as accurate as a good SPL meter obviously, but will give a rough idea) to measure the average levels during P1 this year. Will show peak levels too. I'm interested to see both from GS24 at the apex of the exit of the hairpin in the front row.

I've never taken a decibel meter of any sort to the track, but I would imagine from the level of noise at the engine (140+ dB) that during the naturally aspirated era the level trackside would have been well over 100 during a Grand Prix. That's not even remotely safe for an hour and a half of exposure. I would be interested in hearing your findings for the current engines.

I started out last year's Canadian GP not wearing ear plugs, but somewhere around lap 40 I started to feel the tingling in my ears that lets you know it's past time to put some protection in. Many people seem not to realize it, but just because you can 'take' the volume does not mean you aren't being damaged by it. I probably could have continued to listen to the whole race unprotected without feeling any pain, but I have no intention of becoming one of those audiophiles who can't actually hear the nuances in my music when I'm older. I've walked out of live music performances because the sound level is too high, and I would stop going to GPs again if the engines return to their former noise level for the same reason. No temporary thrill is worth permanent damage to something I value as much as my hearing.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:13 am 
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Never been to an F1 race, but I have been to a Drag Race. The volume there is absolutely painful, but it definitely adds to the spectacle. Mind you, two hours of that would be utterly unbearable!

I always remember how weird it was when the hybrids first arrived how you could hear the tyres squealing... never had heard that before!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:53 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Formula 1 should always look to position itself at the cutting edge of technology.

Going back to V8 or V10 engines doesn't fit in with that image.

You dont think getting a V-10 engine to rev to nearly 20,000 RPM's for 2 hours and not blowing up isn't cutting edge technology?

I've got news for you, it takes an incredible amount of expertise in material science to construct engines that can handle that level of speed and power.

You want low tech engines, look at NASCAR, not F1. F1 engines from the '80s and '90s were very much high tech engines.

Well, sure they were - in the 80s and 90s. But anything that was around in the 80s or 90s isn't cutting edge technology now, by definition. The internal combustion engine is a very mature technology; there's not much room for cutting edge technology in something like that.


OK, let's completely ditch the ICE and make F1 a battery series. That's high tech right? We can have 100% silent cars racing around tracks. Watch attendance drop off to near nothing.



dobyblue wrote:
For F1, even though it's not near the same SPL levels as it was in 2000, I take Speedo swimmer's silicone earplugs and I've sat trackside front row in Montreal since 2004. I wish I had been taking them SINCE 2004, but having suffered from tinnitus since 2009 (combination of Alice in Chains in 2009 at The Opera House and early F1 days thinking "huh, I don't need earplugs, I'm macho") I now take great care to limit my noise to 85dB average. The odd peak of 95 or so isn't going to damage you but several peaks of 100dB+ over 3 days at the track and 7+ hours of F1 along with the Ferrari Challenge and other events, that will definitely damage your high frequency hearing in a hurry. At 43 I've realized that I want to still enjoy listening to my record, SACD, Blu-ray, CD, etc., collection when I'm 70. I'm going to use the Decibel 10 app (not as accurate as a good SPL meter obviously, but will give a rough idea) to measure the average levels during P1 this year. Will show peak levels too. I'm interested to see both from GS24 at the apex of the exit of the hairpin in the front row.

Exediron wrote:
I've never taken a decibel meter of any sort to the track, but I would imagine from the level of noise at the engine (140+ dB) that during the naturally aspirated era the level trackside would have been well over 100 during a Grand Prix. That's not even remotely safe for an hour and a half of exposure. I would be interested in hearing your findings for the current engines.

I started out last year's Canadian GP not wearing ear plugs, but somewhere around lap 40 I started to feel the tingling in my ears that lets you know it's past time to put some protection in. Many people seem not to realize it, but just because you can 'take' the volume does not mean you aren't being damaged by it. I probably could have continued to listen to the whole race unprotected without feeling any pain, but I have no intention of becoming one of those audiophiles who can't actually hear the nuances in my music when I'm older. I've walked out of live music performances because the sound level is too high, and I would stop going to GPs again if the engines return to their former noise level for the same reason. No temporary thrill is worth permanent damage to something I value as much as my hearing.


Put in ear plugs and the chance of damaging your ears drops to zero. That's the way it is. That's the way it has always been. If you want to insure that you dont lose hearing at races, you wear ear plugs. Even with these much much quieter engines you still state that you are wearing ear plugs.

I, along with many many others, want loud visceral sounds at races. I wore ear plugs during the 3.5, 3.0, and 2.8 liter eras. The sound, even with ear plugs was beyond amazing. I went to just one race per year and it was by far, my most favorite weekend of the year. The anticipation walking up to the track, ready to hear those engines for the first time in one year, was simply unbearable. I felt like a 7 year old child I was so giddy with excitement. I was profoundly let down the first time I heard the V-6 engines live and after one race, F1 completely lost its unique character. Now I just watch it on TV. There's no reason to travel, buy tickets, spend well over $3,000/weekend, just to be unimpressed with the spectacle. I am done with F1 until they can bring back the excitement. The visceral, raw, incredible sound of extraordinarily powerful engines.

Hopefully Liberty Media recognizes this problem.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:08 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
OK, let's completely ditch the ICE and make F1 a battery series. That's high tech right? We can have 100% silent cars racing around tracks. Watch attendance drop off to near nothing.

It's high tech, but as Formula E highlights the technology is nowhere near ready for F1. If the cars could run at or near current F1 speed for a whole race distance, I would be shockingly alright with battery power. I would miss the engine sound, but that's an acceptable sacrifice to me in the name of faster, more advanced cars. An engine that makes no sound is better in my opinion than an engine that makes far too much sound.

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Put in ear plugs and the chance of damaging your ears drops to zero. That's the way it is. That's the way it has always been. If you want to insure that you dont lose hearing at races, you wear ear plugs. Even with these much much quieter engines you still state that you are wearing ear plugs.

Actually, the old F1 engines were quite likely in the range where standard ear plugs (~30 dB attenuation) would still not be enough to prevent long-term damage for those at the edge of the track. That aside however, wearing earplugs makes anything a less enjoyable experience, and I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would want to have to wear them.

Yes, I did reluctantly put ear plugs in last year, but I enjoyed the race far less after I did. This year I might try measuring the engines during practice and then seeing if it would in fact be safe to leave the plugs out for the entire race. The experience of muffling the world with ear plugs is not one I seek out.

Herb Tarlik wrote:
I was profoundly let down the first time I heard the V-6 engines live and after one race, F1 completely lost its unique character. Now I just watch it on TV. There's no reason to travel, buy tickets, spend well over $3,000/weekend, just to be unimpressed with the spectacle. I am done with F1 until they can bring back the excitement. The visceral, raw, incredible sound of extraordinarily powerful engines.

Hopefully Liberty Media recognizes this problem.

The unique character of F1 is not, and never has been, the sound of the engines. It is the speed and sophistication of the cars.

If you're looking for raw, visceral power, I would recommend either drag racing or an air show. Either one will produce far more noise and power than F1 cars ever have.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:32 am 
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dobyblue wrote:
lol, I have a pretty good idea what that is remembering blu tack from UK boarding school days holding up all my posters in my dorm room.

Yeah, that's not going in my ears! 8O



White tack is softer and not sticky. It was first used "in an emergency" but I do find it very comfortable and convenient inside a helmet.

Sounds stupid I know, but needs must etc. Have used it for several years now. PS I so have a good set of plugs and muffs


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Exediron wrote:

The unique character of F1 is not, and never has been, the sound of the engines. It is the speed and sophistication of the cars.



This is most certainly incorrect. F1 from virtually the start back in 1950 (I dont know, I wasnt there) has been ferociously loud. Certainly in the '70s and forward the cars made the most intense sound any automotive vehicles have ever made. In the 1980s, the cars were astonishingly loud.

The sound of F1 has most definitely been part of the character, part of the appeal, part of the unique attraction of F1.

When the cars adopted the V-6 engines, there were comments from drivers, teams, the FIA, and certainly the fan base, that something was clearly lost with dramatic reduction in volume. Some liked this new approached, but in no way, was the transition to the V-6 engines at all a seemlessly positive event.

Clearly you are dug in on this and will refuse to acknowledge the reality that sound has *always* been a part of F1 up until the V-6 engines. IMO, that's denying the history and character of the sport that most of us used to love.

Perhaps a new fan base will rise up and join you and help support the series now. I'm done contributing any money to the sport that has moved on from what I considered exciting and interesting. Things change in the world and there's lots of stuff that I used to like but no longer do now because "change" has not resulted in improvement. The two races I saw with the V-6 engines showed a substantially lower attendance rate than from the V-8 era. I dont see quieter engines appealing to new fans very much. Perhaps this will change.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Exediron wrote:

The unique character of F1 is not, and never has been, the sound of the engines. It is the speed and sophistication of the cars.



This is most certainly incorrect. F1 from virtually the start back in 1950 (I dont know, I wasnt there) has been ferociously loud. Certainly in the '70s and forward the cars made the most intense sound any automotive vehicles have ever made. In the 1980s, the cars were astonishingly loud.

The sound of F1 has most definitely been part of the character, part of the appeal, part of the unique attraction of F1.

When the cars adopted the V-6 engines, there were comments from drivers, teams, the FIA, and certainly the fan base, that something was clearly lost with dramatic reduction in volume. Some liked this new approached, but in no way, was the transition to the V-6 engines at all a seemlessly positive event.

Clearly you are dug in on this and will refuse to acknowledge the reality that sound has *always* been a part of F1 up until the V-6 engines. IMO, that's denying the history and character of the sport that most of us used to love.

Perhaps a new fan base will rise up and join you and help support the series now. I'm done contributing any money to the sport that has moved on from what I considered exciting and interesting. Things change in the world and there's lots of stuff that I used to like but no longer do now because "change" has not resulted in improvement. The two races I saw with the V-6 engines showed a substantially lower attendance rate than from the V-8 era. I dont see quieter engines appealing to new fans very much. Perhaps this will change.



When the cars had 12 or 16 cylinder engines or stupid high Revs, and nothing more than a straight pipe to the outside world, it was.

The first turbo era reduced that considerably, as did the drop to a mere 6 cyls at not much more then road car RPM.

At one time you could tell which car was leaving the pit just by the different sound. This has all moved on now though, even the nice ones all sound the same.

A flat 12 screaming at high RPM chasing a V8 with a sort of spluttering rip was something to hear mind.


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