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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:02 am 
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I mean, Mercedes and Ferrari build their own engines. Maybe it's not enough to have a a manufacturer works engine anymore. Maybe the engine and car have to be designed together from day one and all of the following days thereafter. No sending designs back and forth from Japan. I can imagine the car and engine designers would work much more closely if they were working besides each other in the same factory and ideas would emerge and mingle far more efficiently.

And it's not like McLaren don't build roadcars, surely they ought to be designing their own engines in the near future. They have huge backing. Honda haven't really designed a good engine since the V10 era and even then it took years for Jenson Button to win a wet race in one. Mugen Honda was better in terms of results and wins. The glory of the 80s was just down to their turbos being a new thing.

Who else could help McLaren? Ford? VAG? BMW? I don't think any of them would be particularly better than Honda. If they wanted to make an F1 entry they would go it alone to focus on their badge.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:12 am 
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It's a great concept in theory, but in reality these engines are far too complex for anyone to just decide to up and build one. McLaren gets their road car engines built by an outside firm, for that matter - they have no experience making an engine of their own at any level, let alone the most complex PUs in the history of motorsport.

As for who to go to if they leave Honda, some team with WEC experience would be my pick. Maybe Porsche.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:32 am 
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Put simply McLaren can't afford it and have absolutely 0 experience.

The only way they can afford to dump Honda is if they have another works deal lined up.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:23 am 
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If Honda are struggling, with all their experience and know-how, what chance would McLaren have if they go it alone?

Honda are definitely messing up, but it goes to show just how immensely complicated these PUs actually are. McLaren really have no choice but to grit their teeth and carry on IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:33 am 
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Let's not forget that Mecedes didn't just build something based on their road car or DTM engines when they came back to F1 as an engine supplier. They bought out Illmore who had been building Indy car engines for a few years and had a couple of F1 seasons under their belt as well so didn't start from scratch.

All credit to them for development they've done since then, but they didn't just one day up and decide to make a top notch F1 engine.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:07 am 
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surely it has to be a long term goal. even if they just take over an existing engine builder. if the company keeps growing it is possible in the nearish future.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:46 am 
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Zoue wrote:
If Honda are struggling, with all their experience and know-how, what chance would McLaren have if they go it alone?

Honda are definitely messing up, but it goes to show just how immensely complicated these PUs actually are. McLaren really have no choice but to grit their teeth and carry on IMO.


This.

If Mclaren ever were considering it, they almost certainly will not be thinking it now after seeing how a company like Honda managed.


I think the only possible googley would be if someone like Toyota said, look, we have been paralleling Honda, and have a unit we want to try...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:23 pm 
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They just need to wiggle out of their partnership with Honda and get a new supplier. They made a logical move in trying to become a factory team but it's time to cut their losses. It didn't work out.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:45 pm 
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The question is why is Honda messing up so much? I mean its a world class company after-all with a legit F1 experience...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:15 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Let's not forget that Mecedes didn't just build something based on their road car or DTM engines when they came back to F1 as an engine supplier. They bought out Illmore who had been building Indy car engines for a few years and had a couple of F1 seasons under their belt as well so didn't start from scratch.

All credit to them for development they've done since then, but they didn't just one day up and decide to make a top notch F1 engine.

Precisely this!

Their F1 program is light years ahead of their "Production" programs in every capacity. While their F1 engine wears a Tri-Star, the only association it has with the brand is the cash they provide.

EDIT: This portion of my post was omitted…

What McLaren needs to do is buy Cosworth and get the F1 program back up and running.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Frying pan and fire springs to mind.

It's been painful for them but at least the PU now has the potential to reach the heights of the others while the old configuration was maxed out. They've also got the all important combustion technique on the car so growing pains are to be expected.

The problem is they are competing against teams that can now run full chat. Imagine if Mercedes were running at a 5 out of 5 for PU performance modes. Well when they introduced the techniques they couldn't run in 5 because of vibrations and temperature issues but running in 3 or 4 in 2014/15 was fine because their rivals were running 1's,2's and 3's so there was no drama. Same for when the others introduced, Ferrari had weaker Renault's so didn't look to bad and Renault had Honda.

Well now Honda can at least get to 4 and 5 now within this current architecture of the PU but can't run in them because of those same reasons the others couldn't.

Problem is while they're at 3 to run safely, Mercedes now run 5 all the time and may have even found a 6, Ferrari run 5's and Renault run 4's and are on the brink of running 5's now so it looks a complete disaster.

No idea if that made any sense or not but it does to me. :-P

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:20 pm 
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The only other option if for Honda to back off a little and dont make so radical engine until they have more experience.
Say, build a powerful motor but forget about the tiny package, then develop the package for later years using what they finf from a couple of years race program. I suspect it is a case of Mclaren forcing them down the size zero path that is a large part of the problem. They are learning from al sides without a baseline to rest on


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:19 pm 
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If it's this difficult for Honda to get right I doubt a company like McLaren that doesn't build engines would do any better.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:21 pm 
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I think we should get together and build McLaren an engine. What say ye?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:33 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I think we should get together and build McLaren an engine. What say ye?


How hard can it be? :D

In fairness to McLaren, if you'd told me they'd have this much engine trouble with the Honda PUs I'd have thought the person saying that was being ridiculously pessimistic.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Surely it would be cheaper to build their own engine rather than pay $100million fines for pinching rivals' data?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:41 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Surely it would be cheaper to build their own engine rather than pay $100million fines for pinching rivals' data?

That's a very odd comparison to make since one thing has nothing to do with the other.

Additionally $100m is barely enough to run a team for one season much less develop a turbo V6 hybrid drive train. You couldn't even set up the tooling for the lump for that price.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:53 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Surely it would be cheaper to build their own engine rather than pay $100million fines for pinching rivals' data?


:?:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:14 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
Surely it would be cheaper to build their own engine rather than pay $100million fines for pinching rivals' data?

That's a very odd comparison to make since one thing has nothing to do with the other.

Additionally $100m is barely enough to run a team for one season much less develop a turbo V6 hybrid drive train. You couldn't even set up the tooling for the lump for that price.

Yeah, Mercedes has supposedly spent over 10 times that much on their engine by now, so it would actually be much cheaper to steal theirs and pay a $100m fine for it! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:52 pm 
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Quote:
The question is why is Honda messing up so much? I mean its a world class company after-all with a legit F1 experience...



What is Honda doing wrong? Packaging it too small? Is there one or a few reasons, or is it their whole approach that is flawed? I thought Honda does build their own Indy cars, and therefore they do have some background building open wheel race cars.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Longnose wrote:
Quote:
The question is why is Honda messing up so much? I mean its a world class company after-all with a legit F1 experience...



What is Honda doing wrong? Packaging it too small? Is there one or a few reasons, or is it their whole approach that is flawed? I thought Honda does build their own Indy cars, and therefore they do have some background building open wheel race cars.

Indy is a spec chassis with differing small aero bits depending on which lump they're using, either Chevy or Honda.

It's also a much simpler engine in that it's a twin turbo V6. Without the hybrid systems and energy store it's a much easier problem to get on top of. I know that Mercedes were the cream of the crop with the first KERS era but don't recall if Honda even bothered with it before it became mandatory.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:44 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Surely it would be cheaper to build their own engine rather than pay $100million fines for pinching rivals' data?



But they knew that worked, with an engine, they will not :D


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