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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:04 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
If your first answer is a jab at Lewis, the only thing I can say is that there are people who follow success and people who are followed by success 😉. That's life..

The thing is, in all the posts I read there is a sense of entitlement from guys who feel that teams owe Alonso something.

In the case of Mercedes, there are people in Germany in the board who don't want to do anything with Fernando. Toto as a businessman would have no problem I am sure, but there are other issues and past history some believe to be important particularly for their brand.

Don't think that Ferrari engineers are crying all the day because they miss Fernando as good as he may be.
If guys like Forghieri -who has no salary/career to defend- can speak negatively about the atmosphere in Ferrari at the time, can you imagine what some engineers may think?

One picture I remember very well is Fernando with his arm around Ron Dennis shoulder. He wants to be the boss and to call the shots. It worked with Montezemolo(who fired and displaced people because of Alonso) and Briatore.

Does that mean that your initial answer was a jab at Alonso, then?

I only meant that teams would seriously consider Alonso because he is IMO the best driver in F1. Read into that what you will.

I don't see the entitlement you do. I just see people making the case that teams will often be pragmatic in their driver decisions and emotion tends to take a back seat. Who would ever have considered that Alonso would return to McLaren, for example? People are just saying that teams would likely consider one of the best drivers in F1 if he came available


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:17 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
If your first answer is a jab at Lewis, the only thing I can say is that there are people who follow success and people who are followed by success 😉. That's life..

The thing is, in all the posts I read there is a sense of entitlement from guys who feel that teams owe Alonso something.

In the case of Mercedes, there are people in Germany in the board who don't want to do anything with Fernando. Toto as a businessman would have no problem I am sure, but there are other issues and past history some believe to be important particularly for their brand.

Don't think that Ferrari engineers are crying all the day because they miss Fernando as good as he may be.
If guys like Forghieri -who has no salary/career to defend- can speak negatively about the atmosphere in Ferrari at the time, can you imagine what some engineers may think?

One picture I remember very well is Fernando with his arm around Ron Dennis shoulder. He wants to be the boss and to call the shots. It worked with Montezemolo(who fired and displaced people because of Alonso) and Briatore.


Where?.

It's strange because the sense I'm getting is certain fans of other drivers are putting their wishes forward for a driver they dislike rather than thinking in terms of what the situation may be in August/September when all this will play out.

He's already got an offer from McLaren according to EB on the table and unless his form drastically dips overnight then the form of other teams and drivers at the other works outfits will decide if anymore join it or not.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:40 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
If your first answer is a jab at Lewis, the only thing I can say is that there are people who follow success and people who are followed by success 😉. That's life..

The thing is, in all the posts I read there is a sense of entitlement from guys who feel that teams owe Alonso something.

In the case of Mercedes, there are people in Germany in the board who don't want to do anything with Fernando. Toto as a businessman would have no problem I am sure, but there are other issues and past history some believe to be important particularly for their brand.

Don't think that Ferrari engineers are crying all the day because they miss Fernando as good as he may be.
If guys like Forghieri -who has no salary/career to defend- can speak negatively about the atmosphere in Ferrari at the time, can you imagine what some engineers may think?

One picture I remember very well is Fernando with his arm around Ron Dennis shoulder. He wants to be the boss and to call the shots. It worked with Montezemolo(who fired and displaced people because of Alonso) and Briatore.


Where?.

It's strange because the sense I'm getting is certain fans of other drivers are putting their wishes forward for a driver they dislike rather than thinking in terms of what the situation may be in August/September when all this will play out.

He's already got an offer from McLaren according to EB on the table and unless his form drastically dips overnight then the form of other teams and drivers at the other works outfits will decide if anymore join it or not.


It is not possible for all of us to worship him and repeat every 3 posts that he is the best.

If you have time to read my old posts, 2(TWO) years ago I wrote that he f*cked up going in McLaren and that it may be the beginning of the end for Him because of the way he likes to operate and the inability from McLaren to produce fast and reliable car/strategies..(2012 is still too fresh in my mind)

The failed engineered swap(by Briatore) between Alonso - Hamilton was his nth mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:58 am 
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We had a similar chat about Jensen a couple of years ago. This team seems to be where great drivers go to suffer. Anyway, I felt Bottas got a 1yr contract so they could fish for a better driver. Will there be another young star like Max to rival the likes of Alonso, who knows.

I think he will retire, possibly after another renewal with McHonda. I can't explain why but that's just what I think will happen.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
If your first answer is a jab at Lewis, the only thing I can say is that there are people who follow success and people who are followed by success 😉. That's life..

The thing is, in all the posts I read there is a sense of entitlement from guys who feel that teams owe Alonso something.

In the case of Mercedes, there are people in Germany in the board who don't want to do anything with Fernando. Toto as a businessman would have no problem I am sure, but there are other issues and past history some believe to be important particularly for their brand.

Don't think that Ferrari engineers are crying all the day because they miss Fernando as good as he may be.
If guys like Forghieri -who has no salary/career to defend- can speak negatively about the atmosphere in Ferrari at the time, can you imagine what some engineers may think?

One picture I remember very well is Fernando with his arm around Ron Dennis shoulder. He wants to be the boss and to call the shots. It worked with Montezemolo(who fired and displaced people because of Alonso) and Briatore.


Where?.

It's strange because the sense I'm getting is certain fans of other drivers are putting their wishes forward for a driver they dislike rather than thinking in terms of what the situation may be in August/September when all this will play out.

He's already got an offer from McLaren according to EB on the table and unless his form drastically dips overnight then the form of other teams and drivers at the other works outfits will decide if anymore join it or not.


It is not possible for all of us to worship him and repeat every 3 posts that he is the best.

If you have time to read my old posts, 2(TWO) years ago I wrote that he f*cked up going in McLaren and that it may be the beginning of the end for Him because of the way he likes to operate and the inability from McLaren to produce fast and reliable car/strategies..(2012 is still too fresh in my mind)

The failed engineered swap(by Briatore) between Alonso - Hamilton was his nth mistake.


:?: :?: :?:

I've no idea what this rant has to do with what I wrote.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:31 pm 
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The notion that Ferrari wont sign Alonso because they have Vettel is baseless. Ferrari will sign him if Kimi has a bad year or finally decides he has had enough.
The drama that happened at McLaren or Redbull will never happen at Ferrari. One thing Ferrari knows better than anyone else on the grid is how to manage their people during calendar year.

For them, nobody is above the team. PERIOD!
You fall in line or.....nothing. You don't have any other option.

And to be fare to Ferrari, they have backed the driver who had more realistic chance of title. It has been Kimi, Massa and Alonso depending on year since post Schumacher era. When it was time to back Massa, they did. When it was time to tell him to move aside, they did. You get what you deserve by your performance there.

So having both Vettel and Alonso on same team wont be the management disaster that lot of people thinks it will be. They will back whoever has real chance of title in second half of the season. The second driver will fall in line if he wants to continue with the team.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Honestly I think some posters in this forum have a much more inflated sense of Alonso's value on the market than anyone in F1. He is a great driver without question but ultimately, the teams that he would really want to go to already have their bases covered in the driver department and are essentially in a position where signing him would bring more potential bad than good.

Red Bull do not sign outsiders so they're out. That leaves only Ferrari and Mercedes; both of whom have excellent driver line-ups already. The thing that people don't seem to realize is that Alonso is not a suitable replacement for Bottas. He would be a suitable replacement for Hamilton (who isn't going anywhere anytime soon). Alonso is also not a likely replacement for Raikkonen. He would be a suitable replacement for Vettel. Do you understand?

Neither Ferrari nor Mercedes are likely to pursue a situation that has infighting and turmoil written all over it. For Alonso to have a chance with one of those teams, they would have to part ways with their lead driver. That's certainly possible but it's not likely to happen provided the cars are competitive. I think a falling-out between Hamilton and Mercedes or Vettel and Ferrari is relatively unlikely. Even if it did happen, I believe that those teams would be more likely to pursue Dan or Max than Alonso due to his age. In fact I think 2017 will be the last season that Dan and Max are teammates. I think one of them will move to either Ferrari or Mercedes and be replaced by Sainz for 2018.

Sometimes there simply isn't a vacancy in the place you want to be. I think Fernando has to hope that either McLaren or perhaps Renault really takes a huge step forward and find themselves ready to challenge but in need of a top shelf driver to lead the charge. That's his best scenario because he's the only truly top shelf driver that they could turn to.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:51 pm 
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We are talking about where he might be in Australia 2018 and not 2017 right?. I dunno why I keep reading the top teams have drivers already there. It's not that people who think in certain situations Mercedes and Ferrari would talk to Alonso don't understand that it's not likely under today's situation and if the decision had to be made in the next 30 seconds, they're merely pointing out that when these decisions will be made the landscape for all or some parties could be very different and under those different situations an approach to Alonso isn't as wildly impossible as some are making out.

For example, if Bottas tanks badly and costs Mercedes the WCC to Red Bull what do you think would happen in the drivers market?. He gets rewarded with an extension?. One of the Red Bull pair suddenly break contract or Red Bull generously break up the strongest pairing on the grid willingly and give one to their arch rival Mercedes?.

How are these situations more likely than talking too/hiring one of the best drivers on the grid-Seb or Alonso-who happen to be out of contract?.

The arrogance in thinking there is literally no circumstances under the sun that could occur during a season we haven't even started yet that could result in an offer from Mercedes or Ferrari to Alonso who is out of contract at years end, as are 3 of the 4 drivers in those teams, is mind blowing.

And it's got nothing to do with over inflating his standing for me anyway, I think Mercedes and Ferrari would both rather have Seb, as would I as it happens, it just seems so blatantly obvious to me in those certain situations Alonso becomes a legit option.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
We are talking about where he might be in Australia 2018 and not 2017 right?. I dunno why I keep reading the top teams have drivers already there. It's not that people who think in certain situations Mercedes and Ferrari would talk to Alonso don't understand that it's not likely under today's situation and if the decision had to be made in the next 30 seconds, they're merely pointing out that when these decisions will be made the landscape for all or some parties could be very different and under those different situations an approach to Alonso isn't as wildly impossible as some are making out.

For example, if Bottas tanks badly and costs Mercedes the WCC to Red Bull what do you think would happen in the drivers market?. He gets rewarded with an extension?. One of the Red Bull pair suddenly break contract or Red Bull generously break up the strongest pairing on the grid willingly and give one to their arch rival Mercedes?.

How are these situations more likely than talking too/hiring one of the best drivers on the grid-Seb or Alonso-who happen to be out of contract?.

The arrogance in thinking there is literally no circumstances under the sun that could occur during a season we haven't even started yet that could result in an offer from Mercedes or Ferrari to Alonso who is out of contract at years end, as are 3 of the 4 drivers in those teams, is mind blowing.

And it's got nothing to do with over inflating his standing for me anyway, I think Mercedes and Ferrari would both rather have Seb, as would I as it happens, it just seems so blatantly obvious to me in those certain situations Alonso becomes a legit option.

It's what we want as fans but it just isn't likely. Like I said, it's certainly possible but only in the event that either Hamilton or Vettel leave their team. It's best not to get your hopes up for these exciting teammate battles because most teams try to avoid them nowadays.

Also, you seem to think that the contracts that Dan and Max are under would prevent them from going elsewhere. How did Bottas's contract hold up when Mercedes wanted him? There's a way out of any contract in F1 and if both parties want to make it happen, it will happen. I believe one of them will take any vacancy at Merc or Ferrari and not Alonso. Of course I may be wrong and you may be right but that's just the way I see it. If Red Bull bends over backwards to retain them, I think a young driver like Sainz or perhaps an underrated veteran like Perez might get the shot. My feeling is that Ferrari and Mercedes are not really looking at Alonso. And no, it has nothing to do with how good he is as a driver.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
The thing is, in all the posts I read there is a sense of entitlement from guys who feel that teams owe Alonso something.

That's funny, because last year I seem to remember an awful lot of talk from Hamilton fans about how Mercedes owed him a car that was as reliable as Rosberg's, and that they owed him a fair shot at the title... :smug:

That aside, I expect McLaren and Honda did in fact make certain promises to Alonso regarding the future competitiveness of the project. It's doubtful they've delivered on those promises, so in a sense I think they do in fact owe him. Not that it matters, since they'd have delivered if they could have.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:57 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We are talking about where he might be in Australia 2018 and not 2017 right?. I dunno why I keep reading the top teams have drivers already there. It's not that people who think in certain situations Mercedes and Ferrari would talk to Alonso don't understand that it's not likely under today's situation and if the decision had to be made in the next 30 seconds, they're merely pointing out that when these decisions will be made the landscape for all or some parties could be very different and under those different situations an approach to Alonso isn't as wildly impossible as some are making out.

For example, if Bottas tanks badly and costs Mercedes the WCC to Red Bull what do you think would happen in the drivers market?. He gets rewarded with an extension?. One of the Red Bull pair suddenly break contract or Red Bull generously break up the strongest pairing on the grid willingly and give one to their arch rival Mercedes?.

How are these situations more likely than talking too/hiring one of the best drivers on the grid-Seb or Alonso-who happen to be out of contract?.

The arrogance in thinking there is literally no circumstances under the sun that could occur during a season we haven't even started yet that could result in an offer from Mercedes or Ferrari to Alonso who is out of contract at years end, as are 3 of the 4 drivers in those teams, is mind blowing.

And it's got nothing to do with over inflating his standing for me anyway, I think Mercedes and Ferrari would both rather have Seb, as would I as it happens, it just seems so blatantly obvious to me in those certain situations Alonso becomes a legit option.

It's what we want as fans but it just isn't likely. Like I said, it's certainly possible but only in the event that either Hamilton or Vettel leave their team. It's best not to get your hopes up for these exciting teammate battles because most teams try to avoid them nowadays.

Also, you seem to think that the contracts that Dan and Max are under would prevent them from going elsewhere. How did Bottas's contract hold up when Mercedes wanted him? There's a way out of any contract in F1 and if both parties want to make it happen, it will happen. I believe one of them will take any vacancy at Merc or Ferrari and not Alonso. Of course I may be wrong and you may be right but that's just the way I see it. If Red Bull bends over backwards to retain them, I think a young driver like Sainz or perhaps an underrated veteran like Perez might get the shot. My feeling is that Ferrari and Mercedes are not really looking at Alonso. And no, it has nothing to do with how good he is as a driver.


You understand I'm not going by what I want to happen right?. In fact I'm specifically trying to avoid letting personal bias enter it by simply covering different scenario's and what I would think would happen in each logically. I personally would much prefer he stayed at McLaren with Stoff and McLaren pulled their finger out as I'd prefer a 2010/12 scenario next year but with 4 teams.

The difference there is the team they're dealing with would be Red Bull and not Williams. I don't know what the specifics of their contracts are obviously but if they have releases based on where they finish and they can get out of their contracts I'd actually agree they'd be more likely to get the gig. But in that scenario it would mean things went well at both Mercedes and Ferrari if RB were 3rd so I'd imagine Seb would extend anyway and Bottas would have delivered, but could still be replaced by whatever Bull driver got themselves out of their deal of course.

But that isn't the scenario I put forward. Ferrari or Bottas being the ones to fail miserably mean all is rosy at RB both contract wise and result wise and that's what opens the door to talks with Alonso imo. Either by Mercedes moving for Seb which opens Ferrari or if Seb extends then with Alonso as the next best available alternative for Mercedes to acquire a driver line up as strong as Red Bull with the added bonus of covering themselves if for whatever reason Lewis doesn't extend the following year.

I think they'd talk to the winner of Perez/Ocon and Sainz too for what it's worth and thinking about it if Ocon pulls off the win against Perez I think that would be very tempting for Mercedes but it's a second gamble in a row going in to a year Lewis is out of contract but with now the other top drivers all tied up and that would be very risky.

But we're about 5 months early for all this anyway, it's essentially silly season talk so I'll drop it. For all I know things could turn poison at RB and they'd be happy to pack one off to a rival by that stage in which case I'd agree with you about one of them being a better option anyway or Stoff could batter Alonso this year and jump to the front of everyone's wish list.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Last edited by Lotus49 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly I think some posters in this forum have a much more inflated sense of Alonso's value on the market than anyone in F1. He is a great driver without question but ultimately, the teams that he would really want to go to already have their bases covered in the driver department and are essentially in a position where signing him would bring more potential bad than good.

Red Bull do not sign outsiders so they're out. That leaves only Ferrari and Mercedes; both of whom have excellent driver line-ups already. The thing that people don't seem to realize is that Alonso is not a suitable replacement for Bottas. He would be a suitable replacement for Hamilton (who isn't going anywhere anytime soon).


Hamilton has already broached the subject of retirement and it's not totally out of the question that he could retire at the end of this year. He has enough outside interests and has accomplished enough in F1 that he could decide to pack up and move on.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it would not truly surprise me if he did. Especially if he does not win another title in 2017.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly I think some posters in this forum have a much more inflated sense of Alonso's value on the market than anyone in F1. He is a great driver without question but ultimately, the teams that he would really want to go to already have their bases covered in the driver department and are essentially in a position where signing him would bring more potential bad than good.

Red Bull do not sign outsiders so they're out. That leaves only Ferrari and Mercedes; both of whom have excellent driver line-ups already. The thing that people don't seem to realize is that Alonso is not a suitable replacement for Bottas. He would be a suitable replacement for Hamilton (who isn't going anywhere anytime soon).


Hamilton has already broached the subject of retirement and it's not totally out of the question that he could retire at the end of this year. He has enough outside interests and has accomplished enough in F1 that he could decide to pack up and move on.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it would not truly surprise me if he did. Especially if he does not win another title in 2017.


Hamilton retiring, taking time out or just deciding to do a different sort of racing would not be a massive surprise to me. He's 32 now and has always seemed like a guy who wouldn't just do F1 for the sake of it. Another year with lots of politics or just finding the relationship with Mercedes untenable and I could see him walk away.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Alonso
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Alonso got contacted by Mercedes, if he really wanted it and he was really the top wanted guy on the grid, he could have had the 2017 Mercedes seat. But he decided to stay loyal and committed to the McLaren/Honda project and not go and face Hamilton for the second time, even with a chance of being given the best car in the field.

I do admire his dedication and commitment to THE McLaren/Honda project, but really he is playing into his own downfall and decisions in making the wrong calls in his latter career. He had a failure with Ferrari not gaining any titles with them (The Alonso/Ferrari partnership will always be remembered as a failure, especially if Vettel helps propel the team to a title or two in the future)

He has to hope Honda can turn it around, or McLaren do something about it for 2018 and look for another Engine supplier, or make a move to Renault (And hope they get back on track and he can gain success with them before he ends his career) Or hope Bottas has a bad season and then he goes' to Mercedes in 2018, but all of these possibilities are looking unlikely?


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