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Will McLaren still be powered by Honda in 2018?
Poll ended at Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:24 am
Yes. 64%  64%  [ 44 ]
No. 36%  36%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 69
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 Post subject: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:24 am 
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Very simple question: will McLaren and Honda's partnership last beyond the end of 2017?

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:28 am 
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I doubt it. They're better off going back to Peugeot.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:35 am 
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Yes. They have unlimited development now, so even if they have another painful year chances are they will be better able to get on top of things eventually. They won't be forced down a particular design path like before.

Unfortunately, lack of testing won't help. Apparently they've not been able to run longer than 7 consecutive laps all pre-season 8O

But it's worthy remembering that they are three years into a ten year partnership, which is worth something like $100M a year to McLaren if the reports are to be believed. And going elsewhere would not only cost them huge amounts of money, but being a customer would just about cement their status as also-rans forever. I don't think McLaren would do that lightly


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:40 am 
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They've invested far too much into that relationship to stop it now. These things take time


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Yes, for three reasons.

1. They have a long term contract, yes I know contracts can be broken but they aren't even approaching halfway through yet.
2. There isn't an alternative. Nobody can just make one of these power units without several years of development and a massive investment.
3. The only way for both organisations to save face is to work through the current issues and turn things around.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Do they have any other option ? After all it was their choice not be to customer and it was a joint decision between them and Honda to form a partnership :idea:

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Last edited by Mercedes-Benz on Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:42 pm 
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We have to wait and see, Honda really should get act together from here to mid season at most and produce finally a competitive PU, they have no excuses now, the token system is scrapped, they have the money, the resources and the facilities to do so.
If they keep on being crap througout the year, McLaren may seriously consider dropping their engnes


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:40 pm 
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McLaren will dump Honda at the end of 2017, and then in 2018 Honda will partner with another team and win the constructors championship, karma from 2009. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:43 pm 
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the relationship will continue - what choice have they got?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Yes. They have unlimited development now, so even if they have another painful year chances are they will be better able to get on top of things eventually. They won't be forced down a particular design path like before.

Unfortunately, lack of testing won't help. Apparently they've not been able to run longer than 7 consecutive laps all pre-season 8O

But it's worthy remembering that they are three years into a ten year partnership, which is worth something like $100M a year to McLaren if the reports are to be believed. And going elsewhere would not only cost them huge amounts of money, but being a customer would just about cement their status as also-rans forever. I don't think McLaren would do that lightly


This.

(Although I think they've ran 10 or 11 laps consecutively now so it's looking better already!!)

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:41 pm 
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I'm of mixed feelings. I know there's a huge financial incentive, but at what point is $100m a year not worth becoming the joke of Formula 1? Honda isn't just the weakest engine - it's bad. Really bad. So bad I can't imagine Macca ever winning with them, which was the whole point of not running a customer engine. If they're still terrible at the end of the year, it's going to become mighty tempting to get a TAG or something in that car.

Also, there's Honda itself to consider - they're not in the sport to be a joke either, and if they continue to do this badly I would expect the project to start coming under serious pressure from the board. How long do you think it will be before the decision is made for McLaren if it keeps up like this?

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:50 pm 
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I think the first sign of any break up on the horizon will be when it's not just Alonso taking the gloves off when talking about Honda.

I think there would be an escalation in barbs thrown by both McLaren and Honda on a senior level very publicly as to try to get the other to break the 10yr agreement and carry the cost of that.

Until I see that I think they'll both stick it out and try to move forward.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:35 pm 
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The old regulations made it very hard to play catch up, when you were starting 3 or 4 steps behind the other engines.

From testing, Honda don't appear to have closed the gap at all - they are still 3 or 4 steps back.

I think this season is make or break. The new regulations allow them to accelerate the catch up process and the other engines must surely be starting to plateau in development. There is no excuse for an engine manufacturer, serious about winning, to fail to close the gap over the next 12mths. If Honda fail to make inroads by mid-season, then yes, I can see a messy divorce with McLaren - because IMO they never will be capable if they don't show rapid progress this season.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:19 am 
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I think they will be. Honda are bound to get it right at some point. I'm not talking about being the dominant force but you know, respectable and competitive relative to the top dogs. There's unlimited development throughout the season so there's a glimmer of hope for 2018.

But yea, it's pretty dire at this point. McLaren can simply strip off the floor and Fernando & Stoffel can power it like a Fred Flintstone car. Not it won't be faster (nor slower) but it would be more reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:27 am 
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Mclaren can't afford NOT to have Honda on board right now to be fair. It'll continue

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:06 pm 
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What else are they going to do?

The money comes from Honda, so they can not commission someone to build them an engine, and it is unlikely they will attract another supplier or even sponsor.

They will have to pay for an engine that is always going to have a works team above them, and several teams that have used that engine for years and know a lot about using it.

Even if they went to Merc and got a deal they could afford, it would take them 2 years to become a upper mid field team. Just as well give Honda 2 years and get paid.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Blackhander wrote:
Mclaren can't afford NOT to have Honda on board right now to be fair. It'll continue


It's as inevitable as Beauty and The Beast!

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:59 am 
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Yes, and the car will struggle.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Yes, no other option.
Mercedes was very clear that they are now at their limit and cant supply any more teams with engines.

Renault might be their only other option as Ferrari wont sell their engines to McLaren of all teams. But with TR joining Renault camp, even they are at their capacity.
The only deal I see Ferrari offering is either old spec engine, or delayed upgrades or reduced development new engine.

And honestly, I dont think the blame of McLaren's problems can be put squarely on Honda alone. Car is crap. Period. Engine is bad, chassis is not great. The car was all over the place in corners where everyone else was flat out. This was the case in both tests.
I still have a feeling Honda is not getting enough say in the overall packaging and design of the chassis to suit their engine design ideas. With the skill of people at Honda and their facilities, history and capabilities, there must be something drastically wrong with the packaging of not just ICE but electrical systems and packaging of all components.
Its just impossible situation to be in. And something drastically need to change, but kicking out Honda is not the solution to be honest if they cant get the packaging and other subsystems, many of which are outsourced to different suppliers right. And then there is chassis. I wont go there right now.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:20 pm 
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The proper question is will McLaren survive the Honda partnership. Sadly, I think not. McLaren is truly in a death spiral and if they have another disastrous season with Honda powering their cars, I just can't see them surviving.

I truly hope that Honda can finally find a way to produce an engine that is at least, remotely competitive. That they have not even after all this time and all this effort, is very very depressing.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:22 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, no other option.
Mercedes was very clear that they are now at their limit and cant supply any more teams with engines.

Renault might be their only other option as Ferrari wont sell their engines to McLaren of all teams. But with TR joining Renault camp, even they are at their capacity.
The only deal I see Ferrari offering is either old spec engine, or delayed upgrades or reduced development new engine.

And honestly, I dont think the blame of McLaren's problems can be put squarely on Honda alone. Car is crap. Period. Engine is bad, chassis is not great. The car was all over the place in corners where everyone else was flat out. This was the case in both tests.
I still have a feeling Honda is not getting enough say in the overall packaging and design of the chassis to suit their engine design ideas. With the skill of people at Honda and their facilities, history and capabilities, there must be something drastically wrong with the packaging of not just ICE but electrical systems and packaging of all components.
Its just impossible situation to be in. And something drastically need to change, but kicking out Honda is not the solution to be honest if they cant get the packaging and other subsystems, many of which are outsourced to different suppliers right. And then there is chassis. I wont go there right now.


Two Honda engines blew up early on in the first test of this season.

You suggest that somehow it is McLaren's car that is causing these Honda engines to blow?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:23 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
I think they will be. Honda are bound to get it right at some point. I'm not talking about being the dominant force but you know, respectable and competitive relative to the top dogs. There's unlimited development throughout the season so there's a glimmer of hope for 2018.

But yea, it's pretty dire at this point. McLaren can simply strip off the floor and Fernando & Stoffel can power it like a Fred Flintstone car. Not it won't be faster (nor slower) but it would be more reliable.


Yes, exactly. Well said.

It would be one thing if Honda's engine was supremely powerful, capable of letting the Mclaren post impressive first rate lap times and then blowing up. But instead we get Honda powered McLarens muddling around the back of the grid and then blowing up.

It's really the worst case scenario. The engine is neither fast nor reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Honda engine has HUGE vibration problems, that translates into both lack of power and lack of reliability, and at the same time it causes electrical problems.

Truly a disaster for Honda, they are looking like amateurs. I really can't assimilate how much they are messing up in this turbo era.

I was going to make a comment about them and Fukushima but I better keep it to myself.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:21 pm 
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They couldn't even get their own team to work in early 2000's and collapsed in 08.' Honda are shambolic. Nando should of jumped at the Merc drive with both arms.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Voted yes purely because I can't see what other options they have.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:39 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, no other option.
Mercedes was very clear that they are now at their limit and cant supply any more teams with engines.

Renault might be their only other option as Ferrari wont sell their engines to McLaren of all teams. But with TR joining Renault camp, even they are at their capacity.
The only deal I see Ferrari offering is either old spec engine, or delayed upgrades or reduced development new engine.


When RBR spat the dummy with that lemon Renault PU in 2015 and tried to source another PU and got rejected by all the manufacturers, rules were put in place that teams are guaranteed a supply of an engine. I am not exactly sure how that works because all 3 manufacturers already supply 2 customer teams each but one of them would be forced to supply McLaren if honda left F1. Mercedes supplied manor before they went belly up in the 'off-season', so they can obviously handle 3 customer teams.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:45 pm 
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rivf1 wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, no other option.
Mercedes was very clear that they are now at their limit and cant supply any more teams with engines.

Renault might be their only other option as Ferrari wont sell their engines to McLaren of all teams. But with TR joining Renault camp, even they are at their capacity.
The only deal I see Ferrari offering is either old spec engine, or delayed upgrades or reduced development new engine.


When RBR spat the dummy with that lemon Renault PU in 2015 and tried to source another PU and got rejected by all the manufacturers, rules were put in place that teams are guaranteed a supply of an engine. I am not exactly sure how that works because all 3 manufacturers already supply 2 customer teams each but one of them would be forced to supply McLaren if honda left F1.


One of them would be forced to supply if Honda left F1, but would one of them be forced to supply if McLaren merely decided they didn't want to use Honda? And if the rule is imposed, which of the three manufacturers, all of whom currently supply three teams each, would be the ones to be forced to supply? I've never quite understood how that rule would be enforced.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:08 pm 
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steoc4 wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, no other option.
Mercedes was very clear that they are now at their limit and cant supply any more teams with engines.

Renault might be their only other option as Ferrari wont sell their engines to McLaren of all teams. But with TR joining Renault camp, even they are at their capacity.
The only deal I see Ferrari offering is either old spec engine, or delayed upgrades or reduced development new engine.


When RBR spat the dummy with that lemon Renault PU in 2015 and tried to source another PU and got rejected by all the manufacturers, rules were put in place that teams are guaranteed a supply of an engine. I am not exactly sure how that works because all 3 manufacturers already supply 2 customer teams each but one of them would be forced to supply McLaren if honda left F1.


One of them would be forced to supply if Honda left F1, but would one of them be forced to supply if McLaren merely decided they didn't want to use Honda? And if the rule is imposed, which of the three manufacturers, all of whom currently supply three teams each, would be the ones to be forced to supply? I've never quite understood how that rule would be enforced.


Yeah i got no idea how it works, from the offical F1 website i only found this "to ensure the supply of power units to customer teams, the homologation procedure now includes an ‘obligation to supply’ that is activated in the event of a team facing an absence of supply". That is pretty darn vague

*Edit: I actually found it in the regulations PDF. It's APPENDIX 9 in the sporting regulations

*Edit2:
" If there is more than one
Power Unit Manufacturer supplying the fewest number of teams (i.e. in the same
position) and/or more than one team requesting a supply the allocation between such
Power Unit Manufacturers shall occur by ballot (which ballot shall be transparent and
undertaken by the FIA in the presence of a representative of each of the Power Unit
Manufacturer(s) and the new Customer Team concerned)."


Last edited by rivf1 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Updated my above comment


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Yes. To late for another works deal and Mclaren now that a customer engine is a one way ticket to lifelong mediocrity.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Does this apply to new teams coming into F1?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:12 pm 
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moby wrote:
Does this apply to ne teams coming into F1?

Yes. If a new team joined & renault/ferrari/merc refused than honda have no choice as they supply the least. If say honda left f1 at the end of the season & all of a sudden both mclaren & new team x needed a PU & they all said no than the ballot happens because they all supply the same amount.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:50 pm 
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rivf1 wrote:
steoc4 wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, no other option.
Mercedes was very clear that they are now at their limit and cant supply any more teams with engines.

Renault might be their only other option as Ferrari wont sell their engines to McLaren of all teams. But with TR joining Renault camp, even they are at their capacity.
The only deal I see Ferrari offering is either old spec engine, or delayed upgrades or reduced development new engine.


When RBR spat the dummy with that lemon Renault PU in 2015 and tried to source another PU and got rejected by all the manufacturers, rules were put in place that teams are guaranteed a supply of an engine. I am not exactly sure how that works because all 3 manufacturers already supply 2 customer teams each but one of them would be forced to supply McLaren if honda left F1.


One of them would be forced to supply if Honda left F1, but would one of them be forced to supply if McLaren merely decided they didn't want to use Honda? And if the rule is imposed, which of the three manufacturers, all of whom currently supply three teams each, would be the ones to be forced to supply? I've never quite understood how that rule would be enforced.


Yeah i got no idea how it works, from the offical F1 website i only found this "to ensure the supply of power units to customer teams, the homologation procedure now includes an ‘obligation to supply’ that is activated in the event of a team facing an absence of supply". That is pretty darn vague

*Edit: I actually found it in the regulations PDF. It's APPENDIX 9 in the sporting regulations

*Edit2:
" If there is more than one
Power Unit Manufacturer supplying the fewest number of teams (i.e. in the same
position) and/or more than one team requesting a supply the allocation between such
Power Unit Manufacturers shall occur by ballot (which ballot shall be transparent and
undertaken by the FIA in the presence of a representative of each of the Power Unit
Manufacturer(s) and the new Customer Team concerned)."


Remember, as I mentioned, Ferrari (and for that matter Mercedes in case this clause does indeed needs to be used in case of Honda exit) might supply engine, even current spec engine. But they will be under no obligation to supply them with the in season upgrades. In the end, they will be at the mercy of Ferrari, renault or mercedes. Not really good situation to be in where you kick out your existant supplier regardless of their issues and still be left with subpar engine and no development. If McLaren are happy running lower or lower midfield team, that would be fine. But they wont win races or championships this way.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Is running last seasons engine - 2016 - a realistic option for the first few races in order to solve the new units problems?

Realistically if the 2017 PU issues are not solved they will not finish races and Sauber have last years Ferrari PU in the back of their machine.

Can the team split engines? One car with a 2016 and one with a 2017? I'm not saying they would ever do this but do the regs allow it?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:20 pm 
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adywakey wrote:
Is running last seasons engine - 2016 - a realistic option for the first few races in order to solve the new units problems?

Realistically if the 2017 PU issues are not solved they will not finish races and Sauber have last years Ferrari PU in the back of their machine.

Can the team split engines? One car with a 2016 and one with a 2017? I'm not saying they would ever do this but do the regs allow it?


Next to impossible at this point. The regulations are so different this year, the entire PU packaging is different from last year. Last years PUs cant fit in this year's chassis.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:25 am 
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Will Mc even be in F1 in 2018????

If yes, then without Honda.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:48 pm 
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I am looking forward to some tasty opinions from Fernando in interviews


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:44 am 
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Mclaren can't afford not to have Honda on board right now. Honda is paying for their drivers and they're getting free engines to boot. They can't just cut it all away even if the contract did allow it

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:47 am 
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If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:54 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
Mclaren can't afford not to have Honda on board right now. Honda is paying for their drivers and they're getting free engines to boot. They can't just cut it all away even if the contract did allow it

Yes, this. Unless McLaren get some big sponsors on board, I can't see them ever dumping Honda.

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