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Will McLaren still be powered by Honda in 2018?
Poll ended at Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:24 am
Yes. 64%  64%  [ 44 ]
No. 36%  36%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 69
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:24 pm 
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moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.

wow. Didn't see that coming.

Still can't, really. I need to see this corroborated on another reputable site because if it's true then McLaren have completely lost faith in Honda, which in turn suggests that Honda's issues are pretty fundamental and even a medium term fix is not on the cards.

Would be both embarrassing and damning for Honda, and pretty much guarantee that no manufacturer will ever enter F1 again under the current rules and technical era



Can Mc afford it? as here (from link above)

"McLaren with huge potential consequences because the Honda engine deal is worth close to a net $100m annually to the team compared to a customer engine deal.
As well as supplying free engines rather than paying the 17m euros (£14.8m) annual fee for a customer of Mercedes, Honda also pays half of McLaren's driver-salary bill and a significant sponsorship contribution."

No funding and having to pay for engines and drivers sounds like a bridge too far to me.



However, ( :twisted: ) Honda are well into the engine development, and should Mc move on, that nice Mr Dennis is not doing much, and there is a good facility at Banbury that would not take much to re-start.. :twisted:


Good question. Can Mclaren afford to not finish a single race in 2017? That's what the alternative is. Honda has had three years to figure this out, and they are going backwards. Don't think Honda can come back from this. This is a huge hit on their reputation.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:27 pm 
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fwgx wrote:
I don't buy the regulations being Honda's problem here at all.
The regulations did not limit testing out new ideas, just how many tokens you could spend.
Honda used the least amount of tokens of anyone on their engines the past few years.
They simply don't know what to do to make a better engine.
There's nothing that stops them running 100 engines on dynos in parallel each with small tweaks and comparing the results. They could even attach them to 4 way sims to recreate the conditions on a car in terms of vibrations and cooling.
They could have 1000 people working on it at once.
The only thing they can't do is use more tokens than is allowed and that was NOT their issue because they were spending hardly any tokens. They didn't know how to make it better and make more power and it has nothing to do with tokens, it's about knowledge, skills and talent. Now they're copying Mercedes engine philosophy, at which point McLaren may as well buy an engine that uses the Merc philosophy and is proven to be good - the Merc engine!

The barrier to entry from other engine manufacturers is that Merc, Renault and Ferrarri have set the bar so high. The efficiency that Merc are touting for their engine is breathtaking and that should be applauded. If these were traditional ICE's then there'd still be a barrier to entry as the bar is so high.

I think that's rather simplistic, tbh.

The regulations did limit testing. What's more, once you have committed to a certain design path with the tokens, you shut down all possible alternative avenues, which makes spending them a series of very tough choices. Get it wrong and you severely limit your ability to correct it. And Renault spent the fewest of all manufacturers in token spend at last year, despite having a number of severe issues themselves, while Honda were one of the biggest spenders, so think you got that very wrong.

Status as of March 2016:

Code:
Manufacturer   Tokens spent   Tokens remaining
Ferrari           23                      9
Mercedes           19                     13
Honda             18                      14
Renault             7                     25


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12515/10209122/f1-engine-tokens-ferrari-and-mercedes-top-winter-spend

Status as of October 2016:

Code:
Ferrari 32, 0 remaining
Honda 30, 2 remaining
Mercedes 26, 6 remaining
Renault 14, 18 remaining


http://www.f1reader.com/news/tag/token#/news/honda-039-s-formula-1-engine-development-token-spend-reduced-by-fia-156560

I don't disagree that Honda have messed up, but I think you severely underestimate the scale of the challenge facing any manufacturer, especially one coming in behind the others. Honda aren't new at this and for them to get it so spectacularly wrong goes should illustrate that it's not a walk in the park


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:59 pm 
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I think it is possible for them to win with a merc engine if their car was superior than the works merc car. That is a big if, but personally i dont think they currently have the ability to build this level of chassis. Bouiller has been bigging up their chassis forever now, so i wouldnt mind finding out what they can do with a merc engine. Would be interesting.

Fact is honda had three years to get the power unit right. Last year they made a big step forward. This year they've seemingly gone backwards. Unacceptable. I cant blame mclaren if they think enough is enough.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.


Wow....what an epic bombshell! I knew Honda was in very bad shape, but this article shows that the situation is far worse than even the lowest speculation I've read so far.

Honda truly have to be humiliated that it has come to this.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:55 pm 
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moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.

wow. Didn't see that coming.

Still can't, really. I need to see this corroborated on another reputable site because if it's true then McLaren have completely lost faith in Honda, which in turn suggests that Honda's issues are pretty fundamental and even a medium term fix is not on the cards.

Would be both embarrassing and damning for Honda, and pretty much guarantee that no manufacturer will ever enter F1 again under the current rules and technical era



Can Mc afford it? as here (from link above)

"McLaren with huge potential consequences because the Honda engine deal is worth close to a net $100m annually to the team compared to a customer engine deal.
As well as supplying free engines rather than paying the 17m euros (£14.8m) annual fee for a customer of Mercedes, Honda also pays half of McLaren's driver-salary bill and a significant sponsorship contribution."

No funding and having to pay for engines and drivers sounds like a bridge too far to me.



However, ( :twisted: ) Honda are well into the engine development, and should Mc move on, that nice Mr Dennis is not doing much, and there is a good facility at Banbury that would not take much to re-start.. :twisted:


You think the Saudi's who own part of McLaren cant cough up a few dozen millions to plug the financial hole? Honda is most certainly not irreplaceable!

If Honda thinks that they are, then perhaps that is why they are not doing much to improve.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.

wow. Didn't see that coming.

Still can't, really. I need to see this corroborated on another reputable site because if it's true then McLaren have completely lost faith in Honda, which in turn suggests that Honda's issues are pretty fundamental and even a medium term fix is not on the cards.

Would be both embarrassing and damning for Honda, and pretty much guarantee that no manufacturer will ever enter F1 again under the current rules and technical era



Can Mc afford it? as here (from link above)

"McLaren with huge potential consequences because the Honda engine deal is worth close to a net $100m annually to the team compared to a customer engine deal.
As well as supplying free engines rather than paying the 17m euros (£14.8m) annual fee for a customer of Mercedes, Honda also pays half of McLaren's driver-salary bill and a significant sponsorship contribution."

No funding and having to pay for engines and drivers sounds like a bridge too far to me.


However, ( :twisted: ) Honda are well into the engine development, and should Mc move on, that nice Mr Dennis is not doing much, and there is a good facility at Banbury that would not take much to re-start.. :twisted:


You think the Saudi's who own part of McLaren cant cough up a few dozen millions to plug the financial hole? Honda is most certainly not irreplaceable!

If Honda thinks that they are, then perhaps that is why they are not doing much to improve.


Ojjeh didn't promise this to the Bahraini family when he convinced them to throw away Dennis.

At 50 dollar price of oil, the Bahraini family have better things to do than thinking about F1. Yes they can throw many at the issue, but Dennis was right when he took the Honda path.

Yes, it would have been easier with BMW, but still there is logic behind the move.

Problem is that Ojjeh and Brown are not really suited to F1. Of course, if Honda do turn things around, they will look like heroes.

But even if Honda do sort out the issues, and going even more crazy, Mclaren win races etc , still those 2 guys are not suited to running an F1 team.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:06 pm 
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Every manufacturer has her own team, except Honda. McLaren have no choice but to stay with Honda. Exactly what alternative is there?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.

wow. Didn't see that coming.

Still can't, really. I need to see this corroborated on another reputable site because if it's true then McLaren have completely lost faith in Honda, which in turn suggests that Honda's issues are pretty fundamental and even a medium term fix is not on the cards.

Would be both embarrassing and damning for Honda, and pretty much guarantee that no manufacturer will ever enter F1 again under the current rules and technical era



Can Mc afford it? as here (from link above)

"McLaren with huge potential consequences because the Honda engine deal is worth close to a net $100m annually to the team compared to a customer engine deal.
As well as supplying free engines rather than paying the 17m euros (£14.8m) annual fee for a customer of Mercedes, Honda also pays half of McLaren's driver-salary bill and a significant sponsorship contribution."

No funding and having to pay for engines and drivers sounds like a bridge too far to me.



However, ( :twisted: ) Honda are well into the engine development, and should Mc move on, that nice Mr Dennis is not doing much, and there is a good facility at Banbury that would not take much to re-start.. :twisted:


You think the Saudi's who own part of McLaren cant cough up a few dozen millions to plug the financial hole? Honda is most certainly not irreplaceable!

If Honda thinks that they are, then perhaps that is why they are not doing much to improve.



Its not that they can not do it, it is if they think it is wise to do it. When Ron brought the Saudis onboard Mclaren was a showpiece for them. They have not had this luxury for the best part of a decade, and Mumtalakat is a company as well as a family concern and will take advice from financial gurus. Ojjeh seems to have gone cold on it, and Dennis owns the other 25%, so may not be best friends with them.

Its not just a matter of the money, its the options, like having a GP instead of a team, or even sell up and invest in a successful team, which unfortunately Mclaren has not been for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:38 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Every manufacturer has her own team, except Honda. McLaren have no choice but to stay with Honda. Exactly what alternative is there?


There are always alternatives. Always.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Every manufacturer has her own team, except Honda. McLaren have no choice but to stay with Honda. Exactly what alternative is there?


There are always alternatives. Always.


Viable alternatives?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:48 pm 
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McLaren Mercedes


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Every manufacturer has her own team, except Honda. McLaren have no choice but to stay with Honda. Exactly what alternative is there?


There are always alternatives. Always.


Viable alternatives?


Nobody is guaranteed a future. McLaren could just as much be destroyed sticking with a hapless Honda as going it alone or with another manufacturer.

If Honda has truly produced a dude engine and this season is as bad as feared, McLaren are in very very serious trouble. The linked article above says that during the recent testing session, the MOST laps any Honda engine completed was 11. Eleven laps! They completed 50 laps on average per day but blew one or more engines to get that many laps.

What if Mclaren DNF'ed every race for the first 6 races?

I bet Ron is glad to be gone now from this seemingly cursed team.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Honda wil move on to surplying lawnmower engines with stream lined bodywork and utilizing the T wing and blown brakes


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Every manufacturer has her own team, except Honda. McLaren have no choice but to stay with Honda. Exactly what alternative is there?


There are always alternatives. Always.


Viable alternatives?


Nobody is guaranteed a future. McLaren could just as much be destroyed sticking with a hapless Honda as going it alone or with another manufacturer.

If Honda has truly produced a dude engine and this season is as bad as feared, McLaren are in very very serious trouble. The linked article above says that during the recent testing session, the MOST laps any Honda engine completed was 11. Eleven laps! They completed 50 laps on average per day but blew one or more engines to get that many laps.

What if Mclaren DNF'ed every race for the first 6 races?

I bet Ron is glad to be gone now from this seemingly cursed team.



Not as bad as it would have been. Last years engine was almost there, so without the limit of tokens, I'm reasonably sure that in a months time or less they can have a usable engine in the Mclaren and continue working on the one they are using now in the factory.
Not Ideal, but doable. I dont know what the rule is for using a different engine in one car to develop while running one for points, but it is fascinating.

Unless of course this years car is too small for last years engine :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:30 pm 
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McLaren have been on the phone to merc already so 2018 McLaren Mercedes is a distinctive possibility as craig says " who do McLaren want more Fernando or Honda "


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:55 am 
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Has a team ever changed engine suppliers mid season before? I cant recall this but then again, my memory for this isnt all that great.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:50 am 
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slide wrote:
McLaren have been on the phone to merc already so 2018 McLaren Mercedes is a distinctive possibility as craig says " who do McLaren want more Fernando or Honda "

They should just get a Merc engine now so they can develop the chasis. Honda should buy the Manor team only to develop the engines . When engines are up to standard they can re-unite. We still need Honda in F1 and Mclaren can not have a sustainable advantage with a customer engine.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Has a team ever changed engine suppliers mid season before? I cant recall this but then again, my memory for this isnt all that great.


I think Footwork did


Edit, just googled it. 1991 they changed from Porsche to a Hart built Ford. 92 they switched to Mugen.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Has a team ever changed engine suppliers mid season before? I cant recall this but then again, my memory for this isnt all that great.


It used to happen back in the very early 90's and 80's.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:16 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
slide wrote:
McLaren have been on the phone to merc already so 2018 McLaren Mercedes is a distinctive possibility as craig says " who do McLaren want more Fernando or Honda "

They should just get a Merc engine now so they can develop the chasis. Honda should buy the Manor team only to develop the engines . When engines are up to standard they can re-unite. We still need Honda in F1 and Mclaren can not have a sustainable advantage with a customer engine.


This is a good idea. Honda should've bought Manor. They should've tried newer parts on their cars in testing after running them vigorously & then got them fitted to McLaren.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:10 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
AravJ wrote:
slide wrote:
McLaren have been on the phone to merc already so 2018 McLaren Mercedes is a distinctive possibility as craig says " who do McLaren want more Fernando or Honda "

They should just get a Merc engine now so they can develop the chasis. Honda should buy the Manor team only to develop the engines . When engines are up to standard they can re-unite. We still need Honda in F1 and Mclaren can not have a sustainable advantage with a customer engine.


This is a good idea. Honda should've bought Manor. They should've tried newer parts on their cars in testing after running them vigorously & then got them fitted to McLaren.



Then again, what is to stop Mclaren Honda buying Manor, having twice the test capacity, even testing different engines, and there would be no conflict over who is the chosen one when the motor is right, as they would with Merc.

Somewhat in the manor (sorry :D ) of Red Bull and STR

The cost would be comparatively small for huge benefits, especially if Manor were scoring points, which they should being Mchonda


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:41 pm 
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moby wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
AravJ wrote:
slide wrote:
McLaren have been on the phone to merc already so 2018 McLaren Mercedes is a distinctive possibility as craig says " who do McLaren want more Fernando or Honda "

They should just get a Merc engine now so they can develop the chasis. Honda should buy the Manor team only to develop the engines . When engines are up to standard they can re-unite. We still need Honda in F1 and Mclaren can not have a sustainable advantage with a customer engine.


This is a good idea. Honda should've bought Manor. They should've tried newer parts on their cars in testing after running them vigorously & then got them fitted to McLaren.



Then again, what is to stop Mclaren Honda buying Manor, having twice the test capacity, even testing different engines, and there would be no conflict over who is the chosen one when the motor is right, as they would with Merc.

Somewhat in the manor (sorry :D ) of Red Bull and STR

The cost would be comparatively small for huge benefits, especially if Manor were scoring points, which they should being Mchonda


I was actually quite surprised that didn't happen. Would have even given Honda a chance to put a Japanese in F1 and Mclaren would have had something to do with their juniors when ready.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Has a team ever changed engine suppliers mid season before? I cant recall this but then again, my memory for this isnt all that great.


It used to happen back in the very early 90's and 80's.


Can you give one or two examples? I followed F1 during that time but just dont recall this. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Has a team ever changed engine suppliers mid season before? I cant recall this but then again, my memory for this isnt all that great.


It used to happen back in the very early 90's and 80's.


Can you give one or two examples? I followed F1 during that time but just dont recall this. Thank you.


Brabham with the BMW Turbo in the early 80s and a small team running a very experimental Lambo engine in the early 90s spring to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Has a team ever changed engine suppliers mid season before? I cant recall this but then again, my memory for this isnt all that great.


It used to happen back in the very early 90's and 80's.


Can you give one or two examples? I followed F1 during that time but just dont recall this. Thank you.


Brabham with the BMW Turbo in the early 80s and a small team running a very experimental Lambo engine in the early 90s spring to mind.


Thank you very much.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Has a team ever changed engine suppliers mid season before? I cant recall this but then again, my memory for this isnt all that great.


It used to happen back in the very early 90's and 80's.


Can you give one or two examples? I followed F1 during that time but just dont recall this. Thank you.


Brabham with the BMW Turbo in the early 80s and a small team running a very experimental Lambo engine in the early 90s spring to mind.


Thank you very much.



As posted above, Arrows (then Footwork) ran a Porsche (FA12) and Ford (FA12B) in 1991

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footwork_Arrows


Although built by Ford, the engines were "tuned" and maintained by a few different people and these changed from tie to time too



O/T but came across this when I was looking it up
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/whats-the-craziest-race-engine-nobody-has-heard-of-1677825145


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:21 pm 
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I am betting 5 euro on alonso top 3 and 3 on winning.

The same for Stoffel.

:))) I think this would be the funniest win ever.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:35 am 
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A friend of mine sent me this article.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=6870

Interesting read. From what I read it does look like the Honda engine has improved from last year, but the others have made larger gains, and TJI is causing them most of the reliability issues. I'm not sure if Honda is ever going to catch up after reading this. What one has to hope for is that there will be a point where the power units will be maxed out and hopefully Honda will get there eventually, but it might be too late... I really don't think F1 is going to stick with the current power units much longer.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:18 am 
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kleefton wrote:
A friend of mine sent me this article.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=6870

Interesting read. From what I read it does look like the Honda engine has improved from last year, but the others have made larger gains, and TJI is causing them most of the reliability issues. I'm not sure if Honda is ever going to catch up after reading this. What one has to hope for is that there will be a point where the power units will be maxed out and hopefully Honda will get there eventually, but it might be too late... I really don't think F1 is going to stick with the current power units much longer.


Power units are scheduled to be replaced in 2021. Seems a little too soon for me personally, these power units still have so much development potential left.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:34 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
I am betting 5 euro on alonso top 3 and 3 on winning.

The same for Stoffel.

:))) I think this would be the funniest win ever.

This is harder than Leicester City winning the EPL


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Blackhander wrote:
kleefton wrote:
A friend of mine sent me this article.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=6870

Interesting read. From what I read it does look like the Honda engine has improved from last year, but the others have made larger gains, and TJI is causing them most of the reliability issues. I'm not sure if Honda is ever going to catch up after reading this. What one has to hope for is that there will be a point where the power units will be maxed out and hopefully Honda will get there eventually, but it might be too late... I really don't think F1 is going to stick with the current power units much longer.


Power units are scheduled to be replaced in 2021. Seems a little too soon for me personally, these power units still have so much development potential left.

Surely they'll have learned from 2014 that wholesale engine changes aren't the smaetest idea?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:10 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
kleefton wrote:
A friend of mine sent me this article.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=6870

Interesting read. From what I read it does look like the Honda engine has improved from last year, but the others have made larger gains, and TJI is causing them most of the reliability issues. I'm not sure if Honda is ever going to catch up after reading this. What one has to hope for is that there will be a point where the power units will be maxed out and hopefully Honda will get there eventually, but it might be too late... I really don't think F1 is going to stick with the current power units much longer.


Power units are scheduled to be replaced in 2021. Seems a little too soon for me personally, these power units still have so much development potential left.

Surely they'll have learned from 2014 that wholesale engine changes aren't the smaetest idea?


Engine formulae have changed throughout the history of F1. Only the most recent change to the formula has resulted in such a tragedy for the sport. We have one team winning 95% of the races 3 years running and costs going through the roof. Remember how the hybrid engines were supposed to be cheaper to run? :lol: :lol: Engine costs have never, ever been higher.

2021 can't come soon enough for me.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
kleefton wrote:
A friend of mine sent me this article.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=6870

Interesting read. From what I read it does look like the Honda engine has improved from last year, but the others have made larger gains, and TJI is causing them most of the reliability issues. I'm not sure if Honda is ever going to catch up after reading this. What one has to hope for is that there will be a point where the power units will be maxed out and hopefully Honda will get there eventually, but it might be too late... I really don't think F1 is going to stick with the current power units much longer.


Power units are scheduled to be replaced in 2021. Seems a little too soon for me personally, these power units still have so much development potential left.

Surely they'll have learned from 2014 that wholesale engine changes aren't the smaetest idea?


Engine formulae have changed throughout the history of F1. Only the most recent change to the formula has resulted in such a tragedy for the sport. We have one team winning 95% of the races 3 years running and costs going through the roof. Remember how the hybrid engines were supposed to be cheaper to run? :lol: :lol: Engine costs have never, ever been higher.

2021 can't come soon enough for me.


And what if one engine manufacturer does a great job in 2021?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:32 pm 
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I'd rather they kept these units for a bit longer as the price will come down eventually although as BH says the development potential hasn't been maxed yet,especially around the mgu-h, so maybe that will keep costs high.

But any new unit would have the same problems as I don't see a return to V8/12.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:38 pm 
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If you had to place a bet on the next engine formula, what would you bet on? I think V8 turbos without the expensive and complex hybrid tech makes the most sense in terms of controling costs. The manufacturers might want to keep the hybrid stuff though for the sake of maintaining the illusion of road relevance. I think only dreamers would even entertain the possibility that V10s or V12s will come back...


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:13 pm 
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There's no chance the hybrid stuff gets binned with the way engine technology is going. Fans might shout loudly for screaming loud V8 or V10 engines but reverting to that will simply chase manufacturers away.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:05 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
There's no chance the hybrid stuff gets binned with the way engine technology is going. Fans might shout loudly for screaming loud V8 or V10 engines but reverting to that will simply chase manufacturers away.

... and some of the fans. There is not a universal desire to go backwards.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
kleefton wrote:
A friend of mine sent me this article.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=6870

Interesting read. From what I read it does look like the Honda engine has improved from last year, but the others have made larger gains, and TJI is causing them most of the reliability issues. I'm not sure if Honda is ever going to catch up after reading this. What one has to hope for is that there will be a point where the power units will be maxed out and hopefully Honda will get there eventually, but it might be too late... I really don't think F1 is going to stick with the current power units much longer.


Power units are scheduled to be replaced in 2021. Seems a little too soon for me personally, these power units still have so much development potential left.

Surely they'll have learned from 2014 that wholesale engine changes aren't the smaetest idea?


Engine formulae have changed throughout the history of F1. Only the most recent change to the formula has resulted in such a tragedy for the sport. We have one team winning 95% of the races 3 years running and costs going through the roof. Remember how the hybrid engines were supposed to be cheaper to run? :lol: :lol: Engine costs have never, ever been higher.

2021 can't come soon enough for me.



I think this latest change was the only one with no option, just this one. No equivalence formula, or choice of anything really. The power units were always going to be very similar, and that was compounded by the token rule, and really screwed down with the no (almost no) testing


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Yeah the introduction of these units were really badly handled looking back. Most complex units ever and they have no testing the year before or more in season testing dates for the first season and them compound it and implement a token system.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:02 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah the introduction of these units were really badly handled looking back. Most complex units ever and they have no testing the year before or more in season testing dates for the first season and them compound it and implement a token system.

No looking back required. I knew as soon as the token system was announced that it was a horrible idea to restrict development of a new highly complex drivetrain like that.

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