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Will McLaren still be powered by Honda in 2018?
Poll ended at Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:24 am
Yes. 64%  64%  [ 44 ]
No. 36%  36%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 69
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:27 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:30 am 
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Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


:thumbup:

I don't understand why people can't seem to get this.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:58 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
Mclaren can't afford not to have Honda on board right now. Honda is paying for their drivers and they're getting free engines to boot. They can't just cut it all away even if the contract did allow it

Yes, this. Unless McLaren get some big sponsors on board, I can't see them ever dumping Honda.


Isn't it reported that the sponsorship/money inputted by Honda to be around 100 million plus half of the drivers salaries? If so, echo the above comments about McLaren not being able to afford to let Honda slip away due to the financial side of things as well as having to be a customer team again. Interesting that force India have managed to get a title sponsor yesterday yet McLaren after 4 years cannot seem to find out. As has been stated on other threads there seems to be problems throughout got McLaren


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:46 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.



:thumbup:

I don't understand why people can't seem to get this.



Yep Zoue makes a great point.

Sky F1 did a testing round-up the other night with Crofty, Jon Noble and another journo I didn't know. They discussed McLaren's and Honda's woes at length, and it sounded pretty depressing, but as well as heaping blame on Honda, they also aimed it at the PU rules themselves. If a company the size and with the experience and resources of Honda are having this much trouble getting this technology to work after 4 years of working on it, there must be something very wrong with the regulations themselves.

I really hope, now that token restrictions are out of the picture, that Honda can get over what will clearly be a very difficult start to the season and get their PU something like competitive fairly soon.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


:thumbup:

I don't understand why people can't seem to get this.


How many more years can McLaren go winless and still survive as an F1 team?

Suppose we jump forward to 2022 and McLaren hasnt won a single race even then. Do they STILL stay with Honda?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Yeah, it's all the fault of the regulations. Not Honda.

Must've been the fault of the regulations throughout the 2000s as well.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Posts: 19841
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


:thumbup:

I don't understand why people can't seem to get this.


How many more years can McLaren go winless and still survive as an F1 team?

Suppose we jump forward to 2022 and McLaren hasnt won a single race even then. Do they STILL stay with Honda?

Well, 2022 would be eight years into their deal, so they may as well finish it off because if that's the case it's doubtful they'd be finding sponsors anywhere else.

Williams went winless between 2004 and 2012 and in both those years they had a solitary win. Of course McLaren don't want to emulate that but they are in a much tighter situation than Williams were because they have had their hands tied with testing and development in a far more rigorous regulatory environment. Thankfully, development at least has been freed up somewhat this year, but it's clear that a lack of testing is hurting them still.

As pointed out above, the regulations are as much to blame as Honda is. The fact that a company as large and as experienced as Honda is struggling so badly is a poor reflection of the rules they are having to contend with and just goes to show how enormously complicated these PUs are and how difficult it is to get it right. I do expect McLaren to be languishing around at the back for a while, not least because they will be going through ridiculous penalties at a rate of knots, but development restrictions being lifted means that they have a better chance than before of tackling some of their issues. Of course, it probably means treating 2017 as one extended test session again, for which I blame the FIA entirely, but it can't be helped. There surely must be able to get on top of things at some point


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


Completely understand your point Zoue.

I know the regulations have made things tricky for team, let alone a new team entering F1.

My frustration is just that I wanted them to make some progress atleast. Even I want Honda to stay & would want more manufacturers to enter the pinnacle of motorsport.

_________________
Feel The Fourth


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:33 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Yeah, it's all the fault of the regulations. Not Honda.

Must've been the fault of the regulations throughout the 2000s as well.

Yeah, finishing 2nd in 2004 was a complete embarrassment


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:34 pm 
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ScottR267 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
Mclaren can't afford not to have Honda on board right now. Honda is paying for their drivers and they're getting free engines to boot. They can't just cut it all away even if the contract did allow it

Yes, this. Unless McLaren get some big sponsors on board, I can't see them ever dumping Honda.


Isn't it reported that the sponsorship/money inputted by Honda to be around 100 million plus half of the drivers salaries? If so, echo the above comments about McLaren not being able to afford to let Honda slip away due to the financial side of things as well as having to be a customer team again. Interesting that force India have managed to get a title sponsor yesterday yet McLaren after 4 years cannot seem to find out. As has been stated on other threads there seems to be problems throughout got McLaren



Giving some thought along this sort of lines, one scenario that has a possibility, but not likely could be if Red Bull are still not happy with Renault this year.

Imagine a consortium of Honda, Red Bull, STR and possibly an other such as Willians, Hass, FI, Sauber..

Combine to launch an engine producer between them with the stipulation that no one is a priority team and all are equal shareholders with someone like Cosworth and a name sponsor.

Not likely to happen, but the only way I can see anyone else building their own engine.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:35 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


Completely understand your point Zoue.

I know the regulations have made things tricky for team, let alone a new team entering F1.

My frustration is just that I wanted them to make some progress atleast. Even I want Honda to stay & would want more manufacturers to enter the pinnacle of motorsport.

I feel your pain. McLaren are my favourite team and I'm beyond upset that they are in such a predicament. Grinding my teeth down to stumps!


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


:thumbup:

I don't understand why people can't seem to get this.


How many more years can McLaren go winless and still survive as an F1 team?

Suppose we jump forward to 2022 and McLaren hasnt won a single race even then. Do they STILL stay with Honda?


If they don't have another works option. Why would not winning prevent Mclaren from surviving as an F1 team. Like Willimas they exist to be an F1 team and Williams have survived despite being consigned to the midfield with a customer deal.

At least with a works deal Mclaren can aspire to be a winning team again.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


:thumbup:

I don't understand why people can't seem to get this.


How many more years can McLaren go winless and still survive as an F1 team?

Suppose we jump forward to 2022 and McLaren hasnt won a single race even then. Do they STILL stay with Honda?


If they don't have another works option. Why would not winning prevent Mclaren from surviving as an F1 team. Like Willimas they exist to be an F1 team and Williams have survived despite being consigned to the midfield with a customer deal.

At least with a works deal Mclaren can aspire to be a winning team again.



Ron Dennis was the man behind Mclaren racing team, they are now run by a board of directors and could easily decide to cut their losses and concentrate on other areas. Motor racing was the vehicle that launched Mclaren, now it is a small part of a large organisation.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Not really. It's the dominant part of a medium sized organisation. A part that the entire organisation is built around.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
If by mid season their woes are not over, it's close to guarantee that McLaren & Honda will split.

What's the point of getting big bucks when the engine is so fragile.

Because the alternative may mean fighting for financial survival?

McLaren has a proud history of being one of THE top teams in F1, second only to Ferrari. It's easy to forget, after these last few years, that people would always assume they would be at the front, a bit like they do now with Ferrari, Red Bull etc. But their recent showings have meant losing enormous sums in prize and CCB money, which, combined with their lack of sponsorship, has left them extremely vulnerable should Honda and they part ways. Becoming just another customer team would probably be the final nail in their coffin and at best they could hope to end up like Williams, one of the better mid-field teams.

I also think F1 itself needs Honda to remain. It can't be simply coincidence that the manufacturer with the biggest struggles is the manufacturer who joined well after everybody else. If Honda don't improve, what are the chances that any other manufacturer will ever join F1 again in the future, or at least until they bring in a completely different type of PU?

There's an enormous amount at stake here, and not just for McLaren, either.


:thumbup:

I don't understand why people can't seem to get this.


How many more years can McLaren go winless and still survive as an F1 team?

Suppose we jump forward to 2022 and McLaren hasnt won a single race even then. Do they STILL stay with Honda?


If they don't have another works option. Why would not winning prevent Mclaren from surviving as an F1 team. Like Willimas they exist to be an F1 team and Williams have survived despite being consigned to the midfield with a customer deal.

At least with a works deal Mclaren can aspire to be a winning team again.


Is Williams' long term future secure? I'm not 100% sure on that. Right now it's a family run business but that will not last forever. At some point if they dont win they may not be sustainable.

Now that Ron is gone from McLaren, a lot of heritage has gone with him. McLaren until recently has been a winning team, capable of contending for the title in most years. Will their supercars sell if they go decades without winning a single race? I doubt it.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Not really. It's the dominant part of a medium sized organisation. A part that the entire organisation is built around.



I woul dhave said that not too long ago, but things are changing quickly. If the F1 part becomes bad publicity I dont think they would hesitate to drop it

http://www.mclaren.com/technologygroup/news/articles/mclaren-technology-group-profit-underscores-ambitious-diversification-strategy/

They have many options now and as I said are board focussed, not one mans dream

Infact, I would not be surprised if the F1 part was sold off as a stand alone component where ties could be cut with the main operation. I hope not, I am a Mclaren fan for many years, but we have to face it that they are not the company they were


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:

Is Williams' long term future secure? I'm not 100% sure on that. Right now it's a family run business but that will not last forever. At some point if they dont win they may not be sustainable.

Now that Ron is gone from McLaren, a lot of heritage has gone with him. McLaren until recently has been a winning team, capable of contending for the title in most years. Will their supercars sell if they go decades without winning a single race? I doubt it.


That is pretty much my point and exactly why Mclaren has to stick with a works deal.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

Is Williams' long term future secure? I'm not 100% sure on that. Right now it's a family run business but that will not last forever. At some point if they dont win they may not be sustainable.

Now that Ron is gone from McLaren, a lot of heritage has gone with him. McLaren until recently has been a winning team, capable of contending for the title in most years. Will their supercars sell if they go decades without winning a single race? I doubt it.


That is pretty much my point and exactly why Mclaren has to stick with a works deal.


Yes, but this thread is about Honda. How long can McLaren stick with Honda if they keep losing year after year after year?

McLaren should be working behind the scenes with another engine builder and try to get them to enter the sport. Honda has proven themselves to be more than hapless.

I agree with you, a works relationship is mandatory.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

Is Williams' long term future secure? I'm not 100% sure on that. Right now it's a family run business but that will not last forever. At some point if they dont win they may not be sustainable.

Now that Ron is gone from McLaren, a lot of heritage has gone with him. McLaren until recently has been a winning team, capable of contending for the title in most years. Will their supercars sell if they go decades without winning a single race? I doubt it.


That is pretty much my point and exactly why Mclaren has to stick with a works deal.


Yes, but this thread is about Honda. How long can McLaren stick with Honda if they keep losing year after year after year?

McLaren should be working behind the scenes with another engine builder and try to get them to enter the sport. Honda has proven themselves to be more than hapless.

I agree with you, a works relationship is mandatory.

But Honda's experience is precisely why no other manufacturer will likely touch the sport with a bargepole.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

Is Williams' long term future secure? I'm not 100% sure on that. Right now it's a family run business but that will not last forever. At some point if they dont win they may not be sustainable.

Now that Ron is gone from McLaren, a lot of heritage has gone with him. McLaren until recently has been a winning team, capable of contending for the title in most years. Will their supercars sell if they go decades without winning a single race? I doubt it.


That is pretty much my point and exactly why Mclaren has to stick with a works deal.


Yes, but this thread is about Honda. How long can McLaren stick with Honda if they keep losing year after year after year?

McLaren should be working behind the scenes with another engine builder and try to get them to enter the sport. Honda has proven themselves to be more than hapless.

I agree with you, a works relationship is mandatory.

But Honda's experience is precisely why no other manufacturer will likely touch the sport with a bargepole.


There is no reason for this to be true. Given the right conditions, someone will always rise to the challenge. Honda failed miserably with their works team. That didnt stop Mercedes from buying Braun, who were in reality the Honda team. Honda was a failure, Mercedes took over and is now crushing the entire field.

Now that the ban on engine development is history, some other companies are surely more interested in F1 than before.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

Is Williams' long term future secure? I'm not 100% sure on that. Right now it's a family run business but that will not last forever. At some point if they dont win they may not be sustainable.

Now that Ron is gone from McLaren, a lot of heritage has gone with him. McLaren until recently has been a winning team, capable of contending for the title in most years. Will their supercars sell if they go decades without winning a single race? I doubt it.


That is pretty much my point and exactly why Mclaren has to stick with a works deal.


Yes, but this thread is about Honda. How long can McLaren stick with Honda if they keep losing year after year after year?

McLaren should be working behind the scenes with another engine builder and try to get them to enter the sport. Honda has proven themselves to be more than hapless.

I agree with you, a works relationship is mandatory.

But Honda's experience is precisely why no other manufacturer will likely touch the sport with a bargepole.


There is no reason for this to be true. Given the right conditions, someone will always rise to the challenge. Honda failed miserably with their works team. That didnt stop Mercedes from buying Braun, who were in reality the Honda team. Honda was a failure, Mercedes took over and is now crushing the entire field.

Now that the ban on engine development is history, some other companies are surely more interested in F1 than before.

I think there's more reason to believe it's true than not, tbh. When Mercedes bought in conditions were different and the humble combustion engine was king. Now we are using next-gen technology and it's much, much harder to get it right. And which manufacturer will want to make that billion-dollar gamble?

The development ban helps, of course, but the lack of testing still hampers development and Honda's experience shows that almost all testing is done on the track. During races.

While the risk is as high as it is I doubt any new manufacturer will want to take the plunge, especially if Honda is still failing by the end of 2018, which was the starting point of this conversation. If Honda fail, then that will be it as far as new blood goes. Conversely, if they succeed in getting on track in 2017, aided by freedom of development, then this may give other manufacturers the confidence to consider F1 seriously. But only if Honda succeeds, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:


That is pretty much my point and exactly why Mclaren has to stick with a works deal.


Yes, but this thread is about Honda. How long can McLaren stick with Honda if they keep losing year after year after year?

McLaren should be working behind the scenes with another engine builder and try to get them to enter the sport. Honda has proven themselves to be more than hapless.

I agree with you, a works relationship is mandatory.

But Honda's experience is precisely why no other manufacturer will likely touch the sport with a bargepole.


There is no reason for this to be true. Given the right conditions, someone will always rise to the challenge. Honda failed miserably with their works team. That didnt stop Mercedes from buying Braun, who were in reality the Honda team. Honda was a failure, Mercedes took over and is now crushing the entire field.

Now that the ban on engine development is history, some other companies are surely more interested in F1 than before.

I think there's more reason to believe it's true than not, tbh. When Mercedes bought in conditions were different and the humble combustion engine was king. Now we are using next-gen technology and it's much, much harder to get it right. And which manufacturer will want to make that billion-dollar gamble?

The development ban helps, of course, but the lack of testing still hampers development and Honda's experience shows that almost all testing is done on the track. During races.

While the risk is as high as it is I doubt any new manufacturer will want to take the plunge, especially if Honda is still failing by the end of 2018, which was the starting point of this conversation. If Honda fail, then that will be it as far as new blood goes. Conversely, if they succeed in getting on track in 2017, aided by freedom of development, then this may give other manufacturers the confidence to consider F1 seriously. But only if Honda succeeds, IMO.


You may be right and if true, that would be another reason to ditch these engines and get back to a formula that would enable more competitors rather than less. This is a sport after all, at least it used to be.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:24 am 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:31 am 
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A kick in the bum for Honda to get on top of the issues?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:35 am 
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JamWalsh wrote:
A kick in the bum for Honda to get on top of the issues?


Could well be.

Odds next Honda will leak something about Williams or Sauber wanting the works deal if McLaren ditch?.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:37 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.

wow. Didn't see that coming.

Still can't, really. I need to see this corroborated on another reputable site because if it's true then McLaren have completely lost faith in Honda, which in turn suggests that Honda's issues are pretty fundamental and even a medium term fix is not on the cards.

Would be both embarrassing and damning for Honda, and pretty much guarantee that no manufacturer will ever enter F1 again under the current rules and technical era


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:13 pm 
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I didnt read anything in that confirming they are talking to Merc.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39290908

Surely not.

At least wait until the FIA do that measurement over the first three races. If Honda really are that far away then who knows what will happen. I don't know what kind of dispensation they could realistically get(If any) that wouldn't upset the others but the FIA and new owners might feel the need to do something, who knows.

Seems rash to ditch and would leave a big hole in their finances but if it has to happen then hopefully it could be temporary somehow like using Mercedes power this year while Honda sort out their unit and continue when they feel good to go.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part in this post I know.

wow. Didn't see that coming.

Still can't, really. I need to see this corroborated on another reputable site because if it's true then McLaren have completely lost faith in Honda, which in turn suggests that Honda's issues are pretty fundamental and even a medium term fix is not on the cards.

Would be both embarrassing and damning for Honda, and pretty much guarantee that no manufacturer will ever enter F1 again under the current rules and technical era



Can Mc afford it? as here (from link above)

"McLaren with huge potential consequences because the Honda engine deal is worth close to a net $100m annually to the team compared to a customer engine deal.
As well as supplying free engines rather than paying the 17m euros (£14.8m) annual fee for a customer of Mercedes, Honda also pays half of McLaren's driver-salary bill and a significant sponsorship contribution."

No funding and having to pay for engines and drivers sounds like a bridge too far to me.



However, ( :twisted: ) Honda are well into the engine development, and should Mc move on, that nice Mr Dennis is not doing much, and there is a good facility at Banbury that would not take much to re-start.. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:46 pm 
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I think it's prudent of the McLaren board to explore contingency plans for the possibility that Honda can't get it right - or even pull the plug from their end. Doesn't mean they are getting ready to sever ties.
It could also be a tactic to let Honda know they have to up their game to keep McLaren on board, that might be why they've let it leak to the media.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:49 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

wow, that in itself looks pretty serious...


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Yeah it's not exactly a strong denial is it. :(

I understand McLaren's frustration but this seems short sighted to me but then again I don't know the exact problems with the Honda unit.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:58 pm 
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I'm not surprised McLaren are getting an idea of what their alternatives are should things not improve with Honda. In fact, it would be bad management on their own part to not be exploring such options as a contingency. Wouldn't shock me to learn that they've also had such discussions with Renault, although that seems even more far-fetched than a return to Mercedes power.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Boulier saying he thinks Mclaren will win with Merc engine. He better watch it, no way merc will supply them, remember what happened with RBR


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

wow, that in itself looks pretty serious...

Any chance you could let me know what the tweet says? My works WIFI blocks twitter so I can't see it :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

wow, that in itself looks pretty serious...

Any chance you could let me know what the tweet says? My works WIFI blocks twitter so I can't see it :thumbup:


Tweet says

McLaren statement: "Testing was disappointing. Together with Honda we are considering options, but we will not comment on media speculation"
12:14 PM - 16 Mar 2017


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:49 pm 
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JamWalsh wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

wow, that in itself looks pretty serious...

Any chance you could let me know what the tweet says? My works WIFI blocks twitter so I can't see it :thumbup:


Tweet says

McLaren statement: "Testing was disappointing. Together with Honda we are considering options, but we will not comment on media speculation"
12:14 PM - 16 Mar 2017

Thanks :)

I think it would be a mistake, being a customer team and losing around $100,000 in annual funds would pretty much solidify their place as a midfield team for the foreseeable future. I know that's pretty much where they are now anyway but at least now they have their sights set on a return to the front, not just on leading the midfield.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:02 pm 
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I don't buy the regulations being Honda's problem here at all.
The regulations did not limit testing out new ideas, just how many tokens you could spend.
Honda used the least amount of tokens of anyone on their engines the past few years.
They simply don't know what to do to make a better engine.
There's nothing that stops them running 100 engines on dynos in parallel each with small tweaks and comparing the results. They could even attach them to 4 way sims to recreate the conditions on a car in terms of vibrations and cooling.
They could have 1000 people working on it at once.
The only thing they can't do is use more tokens than is allowed and that was NOT their issue because they were spending hardly any tokens. They didn't know how to make it better and make more power and it has nothing to do with tokens, it's about knowledge, skills and talent. Now they're copying Mercedes engine philosophy, at which point McLaren may as well buy an engine that uses the Merc philosophy and is proven to be good - the Merc engine!

The barrier to entry from other engine manufacturers is that Merc, Renault and Ferrarri have set the bar so high. The efficiency that Merc are touting for their engine is breathtaking and that should be applauded. If these were traditional ICE's then there'd still be a barrier to entry as the bar is so high.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:24 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
Boulier saying he thinks Mclaren will win with Merc engine. He better watch it, no way merc will supply them, remember what happened with RBR

I don't think McLaren presents the same threat that RBR does. McLaren are an organization on the decline and all vestiges of their past success are gone now. It's almost to the level where I would compare them to Williams. Providing a Merc engine to an Adrian Newey designed car is a totally different ball game.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren, Honda, 2018
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:36 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
Boulier saying he thinks Mclaren will win with Merc engine. He better watch it, no way merc will supply them, remember what happened with RBR


I think whay he intended to say was he thinks Mclaren would win if they had the Merc engine, and Merc was out of it :D


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