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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:47 pm 
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I sure wish Honda could find the power to compete in F1 this year. After watching the Indycar race yesterday, they have obviously found some power for that series.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:26 am 
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Yes, I did notice that - last year it was a rare sight to see more Hondas than Chevys in the top 10, but if this race proves representative that situation seems to have completely reversed itself.

Of course, the Indycar engine is a bit simpler than the F1 solution...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:08 am 
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Well... Honda can't afford to be seen as failures in two of the worlds biggest racing stages, they must be a bit relieved after Sunday.

;)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:31 am 
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Blake wrote:
Well... Honda can't afford to be seen as failures in two of the worlds biggest racing stages, they must be a bit relieved after Sunday.

;)

It's arguably at two already, if you count Super Formula - I don't know how popular it is worldwide, but it is their domestic series and Honda-engined cars were quite uncompetitive last season. MotoGP they didn't do too badly last year, although I suspect without Marquez on the bike they would look a good deal worse than they do.

Still, it's positive that at least their engine in one series does appear to be the class of the field this year. Maybe it gives hope for the future.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:31 am 
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What is surprising is how long they were underpowered. I mean, those should be bread and butter engines for Honda, but they managed to be off the mark for so long and let Chevy dominate them.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:57 am 
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kleefton wrote:
What is surprising is how long they were underpowered. I mean, those should be bread and butter engines for Honda, but they managed to be off the mark for so long and let Chevy dominate them.

True. It at once offers a glimmer of hope that they may develop a competetive F1 engine in the future and implies that it may take them a disturbingly long time to do so.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:10 am 
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Honda engine is poor in MotoGP.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:48 am 
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I don't know if the Honda engine is that bad actually, in Moto GP.

when you look at an engine, for me it is always the driveability and how elastic it is that makes a good engine, especially in racing.

If you look at the Renault of the RB glory years, that engine was not bad at all. I think Newey stole a bit of the glory with his designs, but that engine helped in making the car so driveable.

The power delivery was great and it always amazed me how smoothly it delivered it. Very very efficient.

With the Honda F1 new engine, what I suspect is that if indeed the vibrations are that bad, they have gone a bit mad with the ICE. I don't think Honda have a problem in making the ICE very powerfull, I think they are lacking the smoothness of the engine, which will deliver huge vibrations.

If they didn't have vibrations on the dyno, than an even worse scenario could be possible : The actual design of the chassis and layout ( egine positioning ) could be triggering them.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:20 am 
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In MotoGP the Honda engine has always been either the best or 2nd best engine. Well, at least since the 90's with Honda dominating.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Is the Honda Indy Car engine made in Japan or the US? If the US, then the chances that this improvement means good things for F1 is limited at best.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Is the Honda Indy Car engine made in Japan or the US? If the US, then the chances that this improvement means good things for F1 is limited at best.


IIRC, it's designed and built by Honda of America, which is primarily American engineers. I think it has little correlation to Honda of Japan's F1 pet project.

Even if we exclude Honda's racing pedigree of the past and ineptitude of the current, Honda has lost the plot in terms of it's automobiles. Consumers in general trust them and deal with them, but passionate Honda supporters hate the direction the company has gone since about 2005. Maybe even 2000.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Honda Quick wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Is the Honda Indy Car engine made in Japan or the US? If the US, then the chances that this improvement means good things for F1 is limited at best.


IIRC, it's designed and built by Honda of America, which is primarily American engineers. I think it has little correlation to Honda of Japan's F1 pet project.

Even if we exclude Honda's racing pedigree of the past and ineptitude of the current, Honda has lost the plot in terms of it's automobiles. Consumers in general trust them and deal with them, but passionate Honda supporters hate the direction the company has gone since about 2005. Maybe even 2000.


Yeah, that's what I thought. Indy Car engines are really American, whatever the badge says.

You are right, Honda's reputation is really a shell of its former self. I was a huge Honda fan back in the '80s, and was excited when they formed their own F1 team. But they showed that they have very little technical skills, at least at the championship level. A real shame. I wonder what the engineers who ran the company and team back in the '80s are doing now.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:27 pm 
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Honda Quick wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Is the Honda Indy Car engine made in Japan or the US? If the US, then the chances that this improvement means good things for F1 is limited at best.


IIRC, it's designed and built by Honda of America, which is primarily American engineers. I think it has little correlation to Honda of Japan's F1 pet project.

Even if we exclude Honda's racing pedigree of the past and ineptitude of the current, Honda has lost the plot in terms of it's automobiles. Consumers in general trust them and deal with them, but passionate Honda supporters hate the direction the company has gone since about 2005. Maybe even 2000.


Agreed


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:09 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
In MotoGP the Honda engine has always been either the best or 2nd best engine. Well, at least since the 90's with Honda dominating.



Last year and this year its definitely not in the top2. Ducati and Yamaha considerably better (Top speed, acceleration, driveability, economy) brutally highlighted at many circuits especially Austria and Mugello.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:27 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Honda Quick wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Is the Honda Indy Car engine made in Japan or the US? If the US, then the chances that this improvement means good things for F1 is limited at best.


IIRC, it's designed and built by Honda of America, which is primarily American engineers. I think it has little correlation to Honda of Japan's F1 pet project.

Even if we exclude Honda's racing pedigree of the past and ineptitude of the current, Honda has lost the plot in terms of it's automobiles. Consumers in general trust them and deal with them, but passionate Honda supporters hate the direction the company has gone since about 2005. Maybe even 2000.


Yeah, that's what I thought. Indy Car engines are really American, whatever the badge says.

You are right, Honda's reputation is really a shell of its former self. I was a huge Honda fan back in the '80s, and was excited when they formed their own F1 team. But they showed that they have very little technical skills, at least at the championship level. A real shame. I wonder what the engineers who ran the company and team back in the '80s are doing now.



Dont know if it is relevent to this years engine but from Honda wiki ( :blush: its the only thing I could find)

HI7R-HI11R engine was developed by Honda in Tochigi, Japan and assembled from delivery in Santa Clarita, California, USA (Honda Performance Development's current headquarters). HI7R-HI11R engine supplied for all IndyCar Series teams


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:31 am 
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Zazu wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
In MotoGP the Honda engine has always been either the best or 2nd best engine. Well, at least since the 90's with Honda dominating.



Last year and this year its definitely not in the top2. Ducati and Yamaha considerably better (Top speed, acceleration, driveability, economy) brutally highlighted at many circuits especially Austria and Mugello.

Last year Marquez won the championship with Honda and the official Repsol Honda team finished way ahead of Ducati. I'd say they were 2nd best to Yamaha


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:14 pm 
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What type of engines are permitted in Indycar Formula these days?
What configuration is the Chevy and who builds it?
Any other engine-builders apart from Chevy and Honda?
What are the power outputs?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:01 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
What type of engines are permitted in Indycar Formula these days?
What configuration is the Chevy and who builds it?
Any other engine-builders apart from Chevy and Honda?
What are the power outputs?

Honda surely learnt something from F1 and applied it to Indycars and voila...
You can imagine the low level of Indycar compared to F1.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:28 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
What type of engines are permitted in Indycar Formula these days?
What configuration is the Chevy and who builds it?
Any other engine-builders apart from Chevy and Honda?
What are the power outputs?

2.2l twin turbo V6
Rev limited to 12k rpm
Boost limits vary depending on the type of circuit from 300mbar/4.35psi (oval) to 500mbar/7.25psi (road/street)
600mbar/8.70psi (push to pass)
Running E85 fuel

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:23 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
What type of engines are permitted in Indycar Formula these days?
What configuration is the Chevy and who builds it?
Any other engine-builders apart from Chevy and Honda?
What are the power outputs?

2.2l twin turbo V6
Rev limited to 12k rpm
Boost limits vary depending on the type of circuit from 300mbar/4.35psi (oval) to 500mbar/7.25psi (road/street)
600mbar/8.70psi (push to pass)
Running E85 fuel

And for the other questions, as RaggedMan only answered the top two:

* There is only one engine type allowed (the one described above)
* The Chevy engine is essentially a rebranded Ilmor, I believe - it certainly was in the past
* Honda and Chevy are the only two engine builders currently in Indycar
* The power output is estimated at 550-700 hp depending on boost

When you look at those numbers, it makes an F1 engine seem even more impressive. At 2.2l the Indycar twin-turbo is producing less power than the 1.6l single-turbo ICE of an F1 car, even before you factor in energy recovery systems.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Thanks for the clarification. Sounds as if Indycars are a lot cheaper to produce and run than F1 cars.
I could not believe Chevy themselves were working on race cars and engines, out of the back door as in musclecar and Chaparral days. Seems as if the Chevvy name (how many vees?) is just for marketing reasons.

Are any chassis/car builders free to participate? How many are there?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:18 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds as if Indycars are a lot cheaper to produce and run than F1 cars.
I could not believe Chevy themselves were working on race cars and engines, out of the back door as in musclecar and Chaparral days. Seems as if the Chevvy name (how many vees?) is just for marketing reasons.

Are any chassis/car builders free to participate? How many are there?

Vastly cheaper. Running a single Indycar for a year is believed to cost about $3m, all inclusive - which is very easy to cover with sponsorship for that car.

The chassis is a spec chassis by Dallara - they are all identical, although teams can put different aero 'kits' on the car. I believe that's going to go away next year as well, when the aero will be totally spec as well.

PS: Just one 'V' in Chevy! ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:50 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
What type of engines are permitted in Indycar Formula these days?
What configuration is the Chevy and who builds it?
Any other engine-builders apart from Chevy and Honda?
What are the power outputs?

2.2l twin turbo V6
Rev limited to 12k rpm
Boost limits vary depending on the type of circuit from 300mbar/4.35psi (oval) to 500mbar/7.25psi (road/street)
600mbar/8.70psi (push to pass)
Running E85 fuel

And for the other questions, as RaggedMan only answered the top two:

* There is only one engine type allowed (the one described above)
* The Chevy engine is essentially a rebranded Ilmor, I believe - it certainly was in the past
* Honda and Chevy are the only two engine builders currently in Indycar
* The power output is estimated at 550-700 hp depending on boost

When you look at those numbers, it makes an F1 engine seem even more impressive. At 2.2l the Indycar twin-turbo is producing less power than the 1.6l single-turbo ICE of an F1 car, even before you factor in energy recovery systems.

I was thinking the other way - That is very impressive power figures for the boost used. F1 boost levels (I know its not an apples and apples comparison because of ERS) are in the 3.5-5bar range.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:29 am 
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jono794 wrote:
I was thinking the other way - That is very impressive power figures for the boost used. F1 boost levels (I know its not an apples and apples comparison because of ERS) are in the 3.5-5bar range.

That's another way to look at it, admittedly.

F1 engines are functionally limited to 3.5 bar by the fuel flow regulations, which is indeed much more than Indycar's maximum of .6 bar. However, the Indycar engine has two turbos instead of one, and it's a larger engine - so a smaller amount of boost may still end up with the same or more air in the chamber.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds as if Indycars are a lot cheaper to produce and run than F1 cars.
I could not believe Chevy themselves were working on race cars and engines, out of the back door as in musclecar and Chaparral days. Seems as if the Chevvy name (how many vees?) is just for marketing reasons.

Are any chassis/car builders free to participate? How many are there?

Vastly cheaper. Running a single Indycar for a year is believed to cost about $3m, all inclusive - which is very easy to cover with sponsorship for that car.

The chassis is a spec chassis by Dallara - they are all identical, although teams can put different aero 'kits' on the car. I believe that's going to go away next year as well, when the aero will be totally spec as well.

PS: Just one 'V' in Chevy! ;)


Back in the day, there were so many different Indy car chassis. Penske, March, Lola, Porsche, Toyota, and several others that I am forgetting. That and engine variety really made Indy Cars (CART cars really), almost a direct competitor to F1. If only they had standing starts. The drivers were very international too. I miss those times.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds as if Indycars are a lot cheaper to produce and run than F1 cars.
I could not believe Chevy themselves were working on race cars and engines, out of the back door as in musclecar and Chaparral days. Seems as if the Chevvy name (how many vees?) is just for marketing reasons.

Are any chassis/car builders free to participate? How many are there?

Vastly cheaper. Running a single Indycar for a year is believed to cost about $3m, all inclusive - which is very easy to cover with sponsorship for that car.

The chassis is a spec chassis by Dallara - they are all identical, although teams can put different aero 'kits' on the car. I believe that's going to go away next year as well, when the aero will be totally spec as well.

PS: Just one 'V' in Chevy! ;)


Back in the day, there were so many different Indy car chassis. Penske, March, Lola, Porsche, Toyota, and several others that I am forgetting. That and engine variety really made Indy Cars (CART cars really), almost a direct competitor to F1. If only they had standing starts. The drivers were very international too. I miss those times.


I suspect this is why Bernie, once he was aware that Tony George was thinking of forming a rival series to CART, pushed him into forming the Indy Racing League to split the fan base.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Back in the day, there were so many different Indy car chassis. Penske, March, Lola, Porsche, Toyota, and several others that I am forgetting. That and engine variety really made Indy Cars (CART cars really), almost a direct competitor to F1. If only they had standing starts. The drivers were very international too. I miss those times.

I also miss CART, although a bit after the fact - I never watched it when it was around, and now I regret not having done so! :lol:

Indycar of today is still in my top three or so favorite motorsport varieties, but it's going in way too much of a spec direction for my taste. Before long only F1 and Le Mans will remain as development series - and if Liberty gets its way, maybe only Le Mans... :?

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