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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Its official, 2017 cars beat 2004 cars by a decent margin.

Now that the cars are so fast, the complainers will stop complaining about cars being slow and will start complaining about boring processional races with no overtakings. :smug:

Kimi couldn't beat the laptime record because of the added chicane.



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:04 pm 
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I'm wondering how scary the pace of these cars will be 2-3 years into the regulations. Or do you imagine they'll try to quickly temper it should records be continuously smashed this year??


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:12 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Its official, 2017 cars beat 2004 cars by a decent margin.

Now that the cars are so fast, the complainers will stop complaining about cars being slow and will start complaining about boring processional races with no overtakings. :smug:

Kimi couldn't beat the laptime record because of the added chicane.


You've hit the nail on the head. People will find something to cry about no matter what.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
You've hit the nail on the head. People will find something to cry about no matter what.

Mostly the fact that the cars aren't as loud, apparently. Who cares if they're faster!

At least the narrative of the V6 engines being slow has died the death it deserved.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:39 am 
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Invade wrote:
I'm wondering how scary the pace of these cars will be 2-3 years into the regulations. Or do you imagine they'll try to quickly temper it should records be continuously smashed this year??

IMO the next step will be to make the front and rear wings smaller and smaller so the cars will be less aero dependant and will be able to follow each other easier.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:28 am 
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It may be the camera angle, engine noise or set up, but the 2017 cars look so much easier to drive. Although I doubt Kimi was driving on the limit in that lap....

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:51 am 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
It may be the camera angle, engine noise or set up, but the 2017 cars look so much easier to drive. Although I doubt Kimi was driving on the limit in that lap....

Obviously the chasis of 2017 must be far far better than the 2004 one.
Remember the 2017 one has no TC yet looks more stable and all.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:09 am 
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Don't forget slicks vs grooved tires.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:41 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Don't forget slicks vs grooved tires.


Well noted.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:48 am 
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Don't forget the wider wheelbase.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Schumacher at the age of 35, Kimi at 37.
Also different time of the year I guess?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:45 pm 
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I am excited!!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:32 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Don't forget slicks vs grooved tires.

Sure, and the much increased lifespan of the V6 turbo, the limited fuel consumption, the very low displacement, the rear end winglet ban, and so on... Each car has limitations


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Beating the 2004 cars over one lap has been happening for years already, in 2011, 2012, absolutely in 2016. I know people have been listening to Alonso whining about the cars being slow but in qualifying pace they have already beaten 2004 qualifying times on many occasions.

It's the race pace where they were slow, and they were slow because of no refuelling, fuel saving and tyres that fall to pieces after only a few laps of hard driving. The tyres are better this year but no refuelling and the need to fuel save are still a thing, the cars are still not going to be as fast as the old cars in race pace.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Bigbazz wrote:
Beating the 2004 cars over one lap has been happening for years already, in 2011, 2012, absolutely in 2016. I know people have been listening to Alonso whining about the cars being slow but in qualifying pace they have already beaten 2004 qualifying times on many occasions.

It's the race pace where they were slow, and they were slow because of no refuelling, fuel saving and tyres that fall to pieces after only a few laps of hard driving. The tyres are better this year but no refuelling and the need to fuel save are still a thing, the cars are still not going to be as fast as the old cars in race pace.

Spot on. If faster, racier cars was the objective then they'd have been better off re-introducing refuelling and bringing back the old Bridgestone tyres.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:36 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
It may be the camera angle, engine noise or set up, but the 2017 cars look so much easier to drive. Although I doubt Kimi was driving on the limit in that lap....

I think you've hit on it at the end; Schumi is driving flat out, and Kimi is probably driving at least a half second off his ultimate pace, probably even more. He probably lost at least 2-3 tenths running wide at both hairpins, and just in general he's not attacking the corners as aggressively on his lap.

Of course, since there's evidence to assume Michael was about half a second a lap faster than Kimi even in his prime, maybe it's just down to the driver. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:53 am 
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Exediron wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
It may be the camera angle, engine noise or set up, but the 2017 cars look so much easier to drive. Although I doubt Kimi was driving on the limit in that lap....

I think you've hit on it at the end; Schumi is driving flat out, and Kimi is probably driving at least a half second off his ultimate pace, probably even more. He probably lost at least 2-3 tenths running wide at both hairpins, and just in general he's not attacking the corners as aggressively on his lap.

Of course, since there's evidence to assume Michael was about half a second a lap faster than Kimi even in his prime, maybe it's just down to the driver. 8)


There has been lots of talk from designers, team bosses and drivers that the cars will LOOK easier to drive this year as they will be power limited and not grip limited. Last year's cars had more power than the chassis and suspension could handle and looked squirelly as a result at times. This year the cars will have much more downforce and much more mechanical grip with only marginally more power therefore they will look like they're on rails much of the time.

The second option is actually much harder to drive as there is less of a window of the car beginning to lose traction. These cars will be rock solid and grip and grip and grip and grip and then suddenly hit a cliff when exceeded in an instant and once the traction has been broken it is extremely difficult to recover due to the friction all of a sudden plummeting and the forces remaining far higher than is now able to be handled.

They'll look easier but be much MUCH harder to drive.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:36 am 
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jimmyj wrote:
I am excited!!



I can barely wait for the season to begin. It can't come soon enough darn it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:43 am 
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Indeed, one week left now ain't it? With Ferrari looking as good as they do we might get a 2 car race for the WDC/WCC, and with Red Bull being one of the best teams at developing a car over a season we might even get a 3 car race! Soon we will see how much Mercedes (and others) were sandbaging and if the Ferrari have even more to give.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:53 am 
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Bigbazz wrote:
Beating the 2004 cars over one lap has been happening for years already, in 2011, 2012, absolutely in 2016. I know people have been listening to Alonso whining about the cars being slow but in qualifying pace they have already beaten 2004 qualifying times on many occasions.


Is this correct? I mean, like for like, as in same track layout so we can compare them? I know they have been fast in Brazil compared to before, but then it was said that the track had become a bit faster due to track resurfacing and maybe smoothening out some lines?

Which other many occasions have cars been beating the 2004 cars?

I mean, Barcelona is a good example and these new cars are not THAT much quicker than the 2004 car while they have gained over 3 seconds on the cars of last year. So it seems a bit of a stretch that there were many occasions where last year's cars were beating 2004 ones.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:31 am 
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Bigbazz wrote:
Beating the 2004 cars over one lap has been happening for years already, in 2011, 2012, absolutely in 2016. I know people have been listening to Alonso whining about the cars being slow but in qualifying pace they have already beaten 2004 qualifying times on many occasions.

It's the race pace where they were slow, and they were slow because of no refuelling, fuel saving and tyres that fall to pieces after only a few laps of hard driving. The tyres are better this year but no refuelling and the need to fuel save are still a thing, the cars are still not going to be as fast as the old cars in race pace.

But in all fairness Alonso hasn't been "whining" about qualifying, has he? He's been lamenting the fact that in races they usually have to drive well within themselves and pushing almost invariably compromises races. It's clearly the races he's largely been talking about and he's definitely not been alone in that. He's just not a fan of the conservation era which has been the hallmark of F1 in recent years.

And the hybrid cars have been very quick in a straight line, certainly, but there again it's not normally the straights that get a driver buzzing. Cornering speeds have been much lower, due to the lack of downforce, which for Alonso, and others like him, have reduced the driving enjoyment. It's no point having a rocket ship propel you down the straight if you then have to go gently round the corners. While the ultimate lap times may be similar, the cars will feel a lot slower to drive


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:13 am 
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People seem to be forgetting that the 2004 cars qualified with fuel.

Just picked out Suzuka at Random...

2016
Quali 1.30.6
Race 1.35.1

2004
Quali 1.33.5
Race 1.32.7

So you see how it's hard to compare one to the other.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:30 pm 
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mds wrote:
Bigbazz wrote:
Beating the 2004 cars over one lap has been happening for years already, in 2011, 2012, absolutely in 2016. I know people have been listening to Alonso whining about the cars being slow but in qualifying pace they have already beaten 2004 qualifying times on many occasions.


Is this correct? I mean, like for like, as in same track layout so we can compare them? I know they have been fast in Brazil compared to before, but then it was said that the track had become a bit faster due to track resurfacing and maybe smoothening out some lines?

Which other many occasions have cars been beating the 2004 cars?

I mean, Barcelona is a good example and these new cars are not THAT much quicker than the 2004 car while they have gained over 3 seconds on the cars of last year. So it seems a bit of a stretch that there were many occasions where last year's cars were beating 2004 ones.

Melbourne has the same layout (possibly even the same surface?) that it had in 1996, so times there between years are certainly comparable. Pole time in 2011 was a 23.5, and 2016 a 23.8, both quicker than Schumacher's 1:24.408 (fuelled) in 2004. If they were doing low fuel qualy back then I'd guess the 04 car would be right there with the '11 Red Bull, probably a bit quicker though.

Now that I think about it, is Hockenheim identical to the layout in 2004? If so the 2016 cars were still a second or so off the 04 pole time.

Having said all that, I'm pretty confident they will be deep into the 1:19's in Melbourne this year.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:47 pm 
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I'm waiting to see the Monaco times. A much less aero dependant track and very little change with regards to track layout. I've been a little disappointed with times there in recent years, let's see how much they can improve by.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:45 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
It may be the camera angle, engine noise or set up, but the 2017 cars look so much easier to drive. Although I doubt Kimi was driving on the limit in that lap....


You think that is a big difference? Go take a look at the Video when Hamilton visits McLaren and they compare his Monaco lap to Senna and just watch the hands. Hams car looks like a freakin video game while Senna looks like he is fighting a monster (which he was). It is no wonder Max is so good, karting looks to require more driver input than F1 cars (not talking about computers, but pure driving)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:02 pm 
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rodH wrote:
You think that is a big difference? Go take a look at the Video when Hamilton visits McLaren and they compare his Monaco lap to Senna and just watch the hands. Hams car looks like a freakin video game while Senna looks like he is fighting a monster (which he was). It is no wonder Max is so good, karting looks to require more driver input than F1 cars (not talking about computers, but pure driving)

That's because nobody spends hundreds of millions of dollars a year trying to make karts as stable, predictable and easy to drive as theoretically possible.

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