planetf1.com

It is currently Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:35 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:54 am
Posts: 163
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bck2ykUay4g

Near the end of this podcast Nigel, when reflecting on what he could have done differently, suggests if he had been more political it may have favoured him. Then he summarises that 'you're never going to win when you're team mates with a world champion, because as soon as you start challenging them they're not very happy with you. So you can't win anyway'

Looking down the list of World Champions only three have been with team mates when they become first time champions. These are:

Giuseppe Farina (losing to Fangio in '51 and Alberto Ascari in '52)
Jack Brabham (losing to Denny Hulme in '67)
Alain Prost (losing to Aryton Senna in '88)

In this context i think it reflects well on Rosberg. Ok it apparently took a lot out of him and he doesn't fancy doing it again but, in a way, he proved himself better than Mansell :D (or maybe not)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:39 am
Posts: 902
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2237
You may as well add that Mansell would have been WDC (with a WDC as team-mate) in 1986 were it not for that blowout...

_________________
What did you say... Douglas?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:06 am
Posts: 3179
Whatever the 'accidents' in any season, if your team-mate (or rival) is slightly faster than you, it is usually impossible to win overall. WDC points allocations are not accurate indicators of driver comparisons. Mansell/Wms -Honda in 1986 was clearly faster than Prost/McL-P; just as Hamilton in 2016 was faster than Rosberg.

_________________
http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:39 am
Posts: 902
POBRatings wrote:
Whatever the 'accidents' in any season, if your team-mate (or rival) is slightly faster than you, it is usually impossible to win overall. WDC points allocations are not accurate indicators of driver comparisons. Mansell/Wms -Honda in 1986 was clearly faster than Prost/McL-P; just as Hamilton in 2016 was faster than Rosberg.


Good, good. Now I can sleep.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
Prost also won alongside Lauda in 85.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
POBRatings wrote:
Whatever the 'accidents' in any season, if your team-mate (or rival) is slightly faster than you, it is usually impossible to win overall. WDC points allocations are not accurate indicators of driver comparisons. Mansell/Wms -Honda in 1986 was clearly faster than Prost/McL-P; just as Hamilton in 2016 was faster than Rosberg.


I agree. Unless you get a bit of a freak season, no surprise Nico lost out in the other 3 seasons given his speed disadvantage.
Rubens probably would have beaten Schumacher sooner rather than later, given enough seasons. Although Michaels car was completely bulletproof during that era so maybe not. Webber nearly did it to Vettel in 2010, Irvine did beat Schumacher in 1999. The more seasons you have as team mates the more opportunity for a freak result especially in a car that is completely dominant and 1-2s every race.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 3277
I think Valteri Bottas will make Nico Rosberg go up in a lot of peoples' opinions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1202
Location: Miami, Florida
sandman1347 wrote:
I think Valteri Bottas will make Nico Rosberg go up in a lot of peoples' opinions.

I think so too.

I've not always agreed with Nico's tactics and things he got away with but I ALWAYS spoke to him having supreme ability.
And usually I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about. Rosberg has some of the quickest reaction times I've EVER seen in F1 and an awareness like no other. which is why I called him on the Spa & Monaco incidents.

The way he avoided an accident from Ricciardo's maniacal Kamikaze divebomb is one of the most incredible things I've ever seen.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 3277
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think Valteri Bottas will make Nico Rosberg go up in a lot of peoples' opinions.

I think so too.

I've not always agreed with Nico's tactics and things he got away with but I ALWAYS spoke to him having supreme ability.
And usually I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about.

In terms of pace, Nico was top shelf. That is actually painfully obvious already but I think this season will drive the point home.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:22 pm
Posts: 830
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:06 am
Posts: 3179
As Moss always said, WDCs so often mess up races. Agree with Argentum here, that the WDC in late 2016 affected Nico's driving/approach. :thumbdown: The WDC also affected Lewis's strategy: backing Nico up was not 'racing' for the win, it was 'driving' for the WDC. :thumbdown:

How much better F1 would be if each race was done in isolation. :thumbup:

Some other method of determining a WDC could be devised. Maybe a secret points allocation at season's end? By Bernie E alone ? :]

_________________
http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.


The better way of describing it is, if Hamilton didn't have a reliability issue or mess up the start he basically won the race.
If Nico didn't have a reliability issue or mess up his start the his result depended on if Hamilton did either. Nico had his worst year of the four in qualifying, had more collisions and more penalties than any other too. He also became the only driver to ever win a WDC by having fewer wins and podiums than another driver.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1449
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.


BIB
That's correct.

There has been a mountain of conjecture about what would have happened if, and no matter how big the mountain gets, it's all just conjecture.

conjecture
noun: conjecture; plural noun: conjectures

1.an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
"conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"

synonyms: guess, speculation, surmise, fancy, notion, belief, suspicion, presumption, assumption, theory, hypothesis, postulation, supposition


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 3277
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.

Yeah things would not have played out in exactly the same manner but there is no reason to believe that Nico would have won the championship. The points swing in that race totally transformed the final third of the season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 2892
lamo wrote:
[Nico] also became the only driver to ever win a WDC by having fewer wins and podiums than another driver.

Erm... Look up Keke Rosberg's win rate in 1982. I think that's the only other exception, but even so. Podiums you're right about though.

_________________
AlienTurnedHuman wrote:
Eurytus probably thought he was God. At least until he was banned. Which means if he was God, it makes me very scared of PF1-Mod.

Yes, we have a swear filter now. No, it doesn't change coffin to 'place of rest'.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 535
Location: Australia
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.

_________________
#Keep Fighting Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
P-F1 Mod wrote:
lamo wrote:
[Nico] also became the only driver to ever win a WDC by having fewer wins and podiums than another driver.

Erm... Look up Keke Rosberg's win rate in 1982. I think that's the only other exception, but even so. Podiums you're right about though.


Fewer wins AND podiums. Keke won with fewer wins too but he also had the most podiums that year.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
cm97 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.


Spa, Hamilton started 20th
Monza, Hamilton blitzed him. 0.5 in qualifying but he blew the start
Singapore, Nico had his best weekend relative to Lewis in there 4 seasons together
Japan, Nico did beat Lewis by the smallest margin he has in the hybrid era and Lewis blew the start.

Just the entire season in 4 races. Hamilton reliability and poor starts, it wasn't anything impressive from Nico (bar singapore) it was Hamilton blowing it off the line and taking engine penalties. In 3 of those races Hamilton was outside of the top 6 on the first lap.

There wasn't a single thing Nico did better in 2016 than he did in 2014 or 2015. In fact most things were worse.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 535
Location: Australia
lamo wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.


Spa, Hamilton started 20th
Monza, Hamilton blitzed him. 0.5 in qualifying but he blew the start
Singapore, Nico had his best weekend relative to Lewis in there 4 seasons together
Japan, Nico did beat Lewis by the smallest margin he has in the hybrid era and Lewis blew the start.

Just the entire season in 4 races. Hamilton reliability and poor starts, it wasn't anything impressive from Nico (bar singapore) it was Hamilton blowing it off the line and taking engine penalties. In 3 of those races Hamilton was outside of the top 6 on the first lap.

There wasn't a single thing Nico did better in 2016 than he did in 2014 or 2015. In fact most things were worse.


But when the title was on the line, Nico lifted and took every opportunity whilst Lewis as you said blew it. A lesser driver than Rosberg would have let Hamilton off for those mistakes but he capitalised.

_________________
#Keep Fighting Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 1336
cm97 wrote:
lamo wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.


Spa, Hamilton started 20th
Monza, Hamilton blitzed him. 0.5 in qualifying but he blew the start
Singapore, Nico had his best weekend relative to Lewis in there 4 seasons together
Japan, Nico did beat Lewis by the smallest margin he has in the hybrid era and Lewis blew the start.

Just the entire season in 4 races. Hamilton reliability and poor starts, it wasn't anything impressive from Nico (bar singapore) it was Hamilton blowing it off the line and taking engine penalties. In 3 of those races Hamilton was outside of the top 6 on the first lap.

There wasn't a single thing Nico did better in 2016 than he did in 2014 or 2015. In fact most things were worse.


But when the title was on the line, Nico lifted and took every opportunity whilst Lewis as you said blew it. A lesser driver than Rosberg would have let Hamilton off for those mistakes but he capitalised.


I'm sure Malaysia helped out.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:52 am 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 19593
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.

So Rosberg deliberately qualified slower than he was capable of or you think he could have passed Hamilton in the race if he really wanted to?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place


Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:56 am 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 19593
F1_Ernie wrote:
cm97 wrote:
lamo wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.


Spa, Hamilton started 20th
Monza, Hamilton blitzed him. 0.5 in qualifying but he blew the start
Singapore, Nico had his best weekend relative to Lewis in there 4 seasons together
Japan, Nico did beat Lewis by the smallest margin he has in the hybrid era and Lewis blew the start.

Just the entire season in 4 races. Hamilton reliability and poor starts, it wasn't anything impressive from Nico (bar singapore) it was Hamilton blowing it off the line and taking engine penalties. In 3 of those races Hamilton was outside of the top 6 on the first lap.

There wasn't a single thing Nico did better in 2016 than he did in 2014 or 2015. In fact most things were worse.


But when the title was on the line, Nico lifted and took every opportunity whilst Lewis as you said blew it. A lesser driver than Rosberg would have let Hamilton off for those mistakes but he capitalised.


I'm sure Malaysia helped out.

I feel that if Hamilton's engine had not blown up he would have won the title, it was a massive blow for Hamilton.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place


Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 535
Location: Australia
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

I'm sure Malaysia helped out.

I feel that if Hamilton's engine had not blown up he would have won the title, it was a massive blow for Hamilton.


Absolutely the engine failure was a blow and that's just how the cards fall, every driver in every championship has those moments. But the next weekend in Suzuka, Nico put his car on the pole to intensify the pressure on Lewis. This pressure ultimately resulted in a terrible start, a start that if he nailed would have been a profound statement in Championship context. To think that the only other driver to get close (used lightly here, I dont think we need to cover every statistic) to Lewis in qualifying was Alonso reflects that Nico is far above the average driver.
To speculate that Lewis would have won the title without that blow up is difficult. Just as Lewis didnt need to win towards the end of 2015, Nico didn't need to win in the back end of 2016.
As I have said all along, the superhuman effort that Nico put in to take the 2016 title from Hamilton, doesn't detract from Lewis because it shows to what significant extents a driver needs to go to in order to beat him. What it better reflects is Nico's attitude and mental strength to fight for what he wanted and hence he has achieved something that as Mansell and the OP points out, has very rarely happend in the sport. In fact, it is very difficult to name a driver that given Rosberg's position from the mid-season break onwards, would have taken the title from Lewis.

_________________
#Keep Fighting Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 9553
lamo wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.


Spa, Hamilton started 20th
Monza, Hamilton blitzed him. 0.5 in qualifying but he blew the start
Singapore, Nico had his best weekend relative to Lewis in there 4 seasons together
Japan, Nico did beat Lewis by the smallest margin he has in the hybrid era and Lewis blew the start.

Just the entire season in 4 races. Hamilton reliability and poor starts, it wasn't anything impressive from Nico (bar singapore) it was Hamilton blowing it off the line and taking engine penalties. In 3 of those races Hamilton was outside of the top 6 on the first lap.


Always this same line, where Hamilton was after the first lap somehow detracts from Rosbergs achievements. Sorry, I don't get the reasoning. Apparently the Merc was not an easy car to get off the line properly and Nico did better - so that adds to his accomplishments instead of detracting from it.

_________________
Supporting all driver with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:41 am
Posts: 125
pokerman wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.

So Rosberg deliberately qualified slower than he was capable of or you think he could have passed Hamilton in the race if he really wanted to?


This. I am not sure why people continually ignore Rosberg's qualifying times & Rosberg's own words that he gave it his all, was gunning for the win. Rosberg stated the pressure of leading the championship began to slow him down. And with the almost impossible task of a trailing Mercedes driver overtaking the leading Mercedes car after turn 1, what do people think Rosberg could have done differently?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1449
SR1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.

So Rosberg deliberately qualified slower than he was capable of or you think he could have passed Hamilton in the race if he really wanted to?


This. I am not sure why people continually ignore Rosberg's qualifying times & Rosberg's own words that he gave it his all, was gunning for the win. Rosberg stated the pressure of leading the championship began to slow him down. And with the almost impossible task of a trailing Mercedes driver overtaking the leading Mercedes car after turn 1, what do people think Rosberg could have done differently?


We might have found out when Hamilton out-braked himself and didn't make turn 1 in the 2016 Mexican GP, but it turned out that driving straight on to turn 3 and giving up what he didn't need of the huge lead he gained was within the rules.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 1336
cm97 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

I'm sure Malaysia helped out.

I feel that if Hamilton's engine had not blown up he would have won the title, it was a massive blow for Hamilton.


Absolutely the engine failure was a blow and that's just how the cards fall, every driver in every championship has those moments. But the next weekend in Suzuka, Nico put his car on the pole to intensify the pressure on Lewis. This pressure ultimately resulted in a terrible start, a start that if he nailed would have been a profound statement in Championship context. To think that the only other driver to get close (used lightly here, I dont think we need to cover every statistic) to Lewis in qualifying was Alonso reflects that Nico is far above the average driver.
To speculate that Lewis would have won the title without that blow up is difficult. Just as Lewis didnt need to win towards the end of 2015, Nico didn't need to win in the back end of 2016.
As I have said all along, the superhuman effort that Nico put in to take the 2016 title from Hamilton, doesn't detract from Lewis because it shows to what significant extents a driver needs to go to in order to beat him. What it better reflects is Nico's attitude and mental strength to fight for what he wanted and hence he has achieved something that as Mansell and the OP points out, has very rarely happend in the sport. In fact, it is very difficult to name a driver that given Rosberg's position from the mid-season break onwards, would have taken the title from Lewis.


You can't really compare 2015 and 2016. 2015 was wrapped up early and 2016 Hamilton had a slim chance of winning the title and did all what he could.
I don't think you realise the Malaysian engine blow up probably had a massive psychological effect on both drivers. Hamilton went from being in the lead of the championship to falling 23 points behind and having it all to do. Rosberg went from 2nd in the championship to having a big lead. That was a massive afternoon in the title race. After all what had happened with Hamilton's engines prior to that race you can't help but be thinking wtf.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 1336
SR1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.

So Rosberg deliberately qualified slower than he was capable of or you think he could have passed Hamilton in the race if he really wanted to?


This. I am not sure why people continually ignore Rosberg's qualifying times & Rosberg's own words that he gave it his all, was gunning for the win. Rosberg stated the pressure of leading the championship began to slow him down. And with the almost impossible task of a trailing Mercedes driver overtaking the leading Mercedes car after turn 1, what do people think Rosberg could have done differently?


That's the point the race is decided at turn 1. Maybe it's true about Rosberg being slowed down in the races because he did have luck on his side when finishing 2nd in America and Brazil.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
cm97 wrote:
lamo wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.


Spa, Hamilton started 20th
Monza, Hamilton blitzed him. 0.5 in qualifying but he blew the start
Singapore, Nico had his best weekend relative to Lewis in there 4 seasons together
Japan, Nico did beat Lewis by the smallest margin he has in the hybrid era and Lewis blew the start.

Just the entire season in 4 races. Hamilton reliability and poor starts, it wasn't anything impressive from Nico (bar singapore) it was Hamilton blowing it off the line and taking engine penalties. In 3 of those races Hamilton was outside of the top 6 on the first lap.

There wasn't a single thing Nico did better in 2016 than he did in 2014 or 2015. In fact most things were worse.


But when the title was on the line, Nico lifted and took every opportunity whilst Lewis as you said blew it. A lesser driver than Rosberg would have let Hamilton off for those mistakes but he capitalised.


Its like you swallowed a book of sporting cliches. Nico drove at a pretty similar level 2014-2016. Not as strong as 2013 but he didn't lift at all. There wasn't a single thing he was better at in 2016. That is not lifting. His peak of the hybrid era was the second half of 2015.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Last edited by lamo on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
cm97 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.

Yes, Lewis stole the momentum off Nico mid season, particularly in Germany I felt his season was over. The press had written him off, saying he was psychologically gone. HOWEVER, the fact that Rosberg came out swinging and wrestled back momentum after the summer break at Spa, Monza, Japan and particularly Singapore where he dominated Lewis all weekend and held Ricciardo off who had fresh tyres at the end was nothing short of brilliant. As Mansell points out, he did this over a top 10-20 driver of all time, who has had the edge over him for years as teammates at Mercedes and junior formula. That makes Rosbergs accomplishment so remarkable. It doesn't detract from Lewis much at all.


Spa, Hamilton started 20th
Monza, Hamilton blitzed him. 0.5 in qualifying but he blew the start
Singapore, Nico had his best weekend relative to Lewis in there 4 seasons together
Japan, Nico did beat Lewis by the smallest margin he has in the hybrid era and Lewis blew the start.

Just the entire season in 4 races. Hamilton reliability and poor starts, it wasn't anything impressive from Nico (bar singapore) it was Hamilton blowing it off the line and taking engine penalties. In 3 of those races Hamilton was outside of the top 6 on the first lap.


Always this same line, where Hamilton was after the first lap somehow detracts from Rosbergs achievements. Sorry, I don't get the reasoning. Apparently the Merc was not an easy car to get off the line properly and Nico did better - so that adds to his accomplishments instead of detracting from it.


This is just how I interpret things, I always have.

Like when Yohan Blake won the world championships because Bolt did a false start and was disqualified. Blake only won because of that. Or the only time I've ever beat my friend at table tennis in hundreds of games because he was recovering from an ankle injury - only reason I beat him. Or the time I got promoted because I was related to the company owner but many others were better than me. Context is everything, you can win something and be lucky or product of good fortune. It happens in every walk of life, every day.

I used the examples above to counter the point that Rosberg some how improved, he didn't. That's pretty clear and not really something anybody disagrees with.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Last edited by lamo on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 8322
Oh no, someone complimented Nico!

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
cm97 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

I'm sure Malaysia helped out.

I feel that if Hamilton's engine had not blown up he would have won the title, it was a massive blow for Hamilton.


Absolutely the engine failure was a blow and that's just how the cards fall, every driver in every championship has those moments.


That's where he won the title, he didn't have those moments. Except for the gearbox change in Austria which made him start 6th and elevated him to 1st place and the win due to Mercedes strategy. So even when he had his bit of bad luck it should have won him a race.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:41 am
Posts: 125
babararacucudada wrote:
SR1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Yeah but, Rosberg wouldn't be a WDC if it wasn't for Hamiltons reliability issues. Even with all the issues Hamilton had he still was able to win more races. Rosberg made a mess of a championchip that could have been so much more easily won by him.


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.

So Rosberg deliberately qualified slower than he was capable of or you think he could have passed Hamilton in the race if he really wanted to?


This. I am not sure why people continually ignore Rosberg's qualifying times & Rosberg's own words that he gave it his all, was gunning for the win. Rosberg stated the pressure of leading the championship began to slow him down. And with the almost impossible task of a trailing Mercedes driver overtaking the leading Mercedes car after turn 1, what do people think Rosberg could have done differently?


We might have found out when Hamilton out-braked himself and didn't make turn 1 in the 2016 Mexican GP, but it turned out that driving straight on to turn 3 and giving up what he didn't need of the huge lead he gained was within the rules.


I can't recall events clearly, but you've said it. What Hamilton did at the start of the Mexico gp was deemed legal, as did Rosberg cutting a corner behind him. So my curiosity still stands--after the initial mad dash at the start of the race, what could Rosberg have done to over-turn the well worn narrative, that it's all over after turn 1 bar the shouting?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5281
Location: Nebraska, USA
Covalent wrote:
Oh no, someone complimented Nico!


Just what I was thinking....

Now the apologists are out in force about how Lewis would have won, if...............

:?

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
The only thing Rosberg could have done differently was qualifying better, he was poor all year by his own very high standards and had his worst qualifying against Hamilton of the four years.

13-8 to Hamilton
or
13-5 to Hamilton when Hamilton didn't break down
even then
5 = Hamilton crashing out, Hamilton only getting 1 compromised run (4 warm up laps) in Monaco, Nico running yellow flag zone in Hungary.

He got mauled but it looks kind of respectable due to Hamilton missing sessions/runs due to breaking down and the Hungary yellow flag thing when Hamilton was 0.5 quicker that session. Nico was on it in Singapore, Germany and Japan but 3/21 isn't anywhere near his standard.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1449
SR1 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
SR1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just conjecture, based on us now knowing the results of subsequent races.


In the last four races, for example, Rosberg trailled in second, as this is all he needed to do, in order to win the WDC. Had the situation been different, we have no way of knowing how Rosberg would have driven, what risks he would have taken etc. You can't just take Hamilton's reliability problems, and assume that everything subsequent to that would have remained the same. It may have done, but I'm not sure it's likely.

So Rosberg deliberately qualified slower than he was capable of or you think he could have passed Hamilton in the race if he really wanted to?


This. I am not sure why people continually ignore Rosberg's qualifying times & Rosberg's own words that he gave it his all, was gunning for the win. Rosberg stated the pressure of leading the championship began to slow him down. And with the almost impossible task of a trailing Mercedes driver overtaking the leading Mercedes car after turn 1, what do people think Rosberg could have done differently?


We might have found out when Hamilton out-braked himself and didn't make turn 1 in the 2016 Mexican GP, but it turned out that driving straight on to turn 3 and giving up what he didn't need of the huge lead he gained was within the rules.


I can't recall events clearly, but you've said it. What Hamilton did at the start of the Mexico gp was deemed legal, as did Rosberg cutting a corner behind him. So my curiosity still stands--after the initial mad dash at the start of the race, what could Rosberg have done to over-turn the well worn narrative, that it's all over after turn 1 bar the shouting?


That would just add to the mountain of conjecture.

I'm OK with what actually happened, so I don't feel a need to imagine other outcomes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:41 am
Posts: 125
babararacucudada wrote:

That would just add to the mountain of conjecture.

I'm OK with what actually happened, so I don't feel a need to imagine other outcomes.


That's fair enough.

But the race being decided by turn 1 isn't conjecture. I think it was Lamo who once posted some startling stats- that after turn 1 the trailing Merc hasn't over-turned the leading Merc since 2014? This, excluding things like reliability issues or strategy cock-ups.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 9553
lamo wrote:
I used the examples above to counter the point that Rosberg some how improved, he didn't. That's pretty clear and not really something anybody disagrees with.


Well he did improve on starts relative to Hamilton. Maybe the W07 was harder to get off the line than the Mercs before and Nico did a really good job to have so few bad starts in that machine. Maybe he started better than ever, maybe that's where he improved.

Bottom line: starting is an important discipline for an F1 driver. Nico did better, and that is not luck. So feel free to continue that line ("Hamilton was in xxth at the end of lap one") but know then that you're not proving what you think you are.

_________________
Supporting all driver with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 6975
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
I used the examples above to counter the point that Rosberg some how improved, he didn't. That's pretty clear and not really something anybody disagrees with.


Well he did improve on starts relative to Hamilton. Maybe the W07 was harder to get off the line than the Mercs before and Nico did a really good job to have so few bad starts in that machine. Maybe he started better than ever, maybe that's where he improved.

Bottom line: starting is an important discipline for an F1 driver. Nico did better, and that is not luck. So feel free to continue that line ("Hamilton was in xxth at the end of lap one") but know then that you're not proving what you think you are.


It was mentioned above how Spa was a great drive for Rosberg. He took pole by 0.100 over Red Bull and won whilst Hamilton started 20th. I only mention Hamiltons position because it is an easy win for Rosberg and half the time it was due to Hamiltons having reliability issues in qualifying so its not down to the start.

Starting became important last year and Nico did start better than Hamilton. But not massively so, he lost at least one place 6 times in 18 starts. His starts were still bad, just not as bad as Hamiltons.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], motorfinger, pokerman, Rockie and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group