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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:49 am 
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mds wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm crediting the man, and what you apparently get out of it is that I'm slighting him. :uhoh:

But you're not crediting him enough. It's like saying Hamilton will probably be a top ten all-time driver when he retires; that's actually an insult against Lewis, I've learned.

How am I not crediting him enough? I'm saying if he keeps up doing what he's doing, he will be one of the (if not the) greatest in history. How is that not enough? That is pretty much literally saying that these past years his level has been among the best we've ever seen. There is no way to give more credit than that.

We don't have crystal balls, we don't know what he will do in the future. If he, from here on on, fails to win a further title and is regularly beaten by newly brought in teammates, then he would probably not qualify as GOAT. I can't possibly know that, so what can I say more than I'm already doing?

I'm sorry, I guess it wasn't clear that I was being sarcastic. It's just that I've run into this before on this forum, where you give a driver credit but apparently not enough and it offends their fan base.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:02 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I'm sorry, I guess it wasn't clear that I was being sarcastic. It's just that I've run into this before on this forum, where you give a driver credit but apparently not enough and it offends their fan base.


Sorry, should have got that when I reread the end of your post :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:19 am 
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mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Again Fiki, please don't act as if team bosses always speak the truth and nothing but the truth. Sure they might have said that, but lots of people in history have said such and acted otherwise. A "+1" pit board does not seem to leave much to the imagination.

But OK, there are no team orders, let's now call them team suggestions. ;)
+1? Are you sure?


Yeah, -1, doesn't change what I said.

Quote:
Mds, you're misrepresenting what I wrote. That's not very nice.


I did put a winking smiley there. But Fiki, ignoring arguments is not very nice either, and you've done this two times now by not acknowledging that team bosses and members do not necessarily speak the truth.
You're not going to believe this, but putting -1 (or +1 for that matter) could be taken by a rider to mean something quite different. So I repeat that we weren't privy to the team discussions/instructions/orders prior the race, nor to the list of coded messages and their meanings in different contexts.

Let me make your day by acknowledging that team bosses and members don't necessarily speak the truth. :nod:

The point is that what Mr Dall'Igna said, dovetails perfectly with the situation we saw develop. He calls it a misunderstanding, which I believe to be true. How many times have we heard a F1 race engineer tell his driver to push, with the flippant reply "What do you think I'm doing?" It illustrates that, no matter the amount of technical detail available to the Houston Space Center Pitwall Crew, what happens in the car or on the bike, isn't always clear to those not actually driving/riding the thing.

No swapping of places during the race had any influence on the championship, as long as the prime condition wasn't met. You know I don't condone crashing into people to take them out of a race, so with Marc still on his bike and in contention, that was it. Dovizioso didn't lose sight of this, neither did Lorenzo. It appears the team did, and made the suggestion to swap places just the same. I take Mr Dall'Igna's statement in the spirit in which it was intended. In fact, I respect him even more because of it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
No swapping of places during the race had any influence on the championship, as long as the prime condition wasn't met. You know I don't condone crashing into people to take them out of a race, so with Marc still on his bike and in contention, that was it. Dovizioso didn't lose sight of this, neither did Lorenzo. It appears the team did, and made the suggestion to swap places just the same.


While all of this is true, they might have thought that Dovi might have had a slightly better pace than Lorenzo but just couldn't pass - they might have thought he could pressure, maybe pass Marquez, maybe that would have done something with Marquez, maybe he would have tried to make a point and beat Dovi in that race - just like he tried beating Zarco and almost paid for it by going off, which he only just managed to avoid.
Maybe they thought Dovi would have better been more to the front, for the eventual case Marquez would retire, and Dovi would have been left with less work to do to get to P1.

We don't really know what they thought or why they gave the - as you call it - suggestion. So that's very much up in the air.

But I do feel that Dall'Igna isn't fully honest, that the -1 was not a suggestion but an order, and that he said what he said for other reasons. My primary idea being to avoid disarray within the team, because next year they will have the same riders and it's in their best interest to keep the pressure from outside as low as possible.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
You're not going to believe this, but putting -1 (or +1 for that matter) could be taken by a rider to mean something quite different. So I repeat that we weren't privy to the team discussions/instructions/orders prior the race, nor to the list of coded messages and their meanings in different contexts.

Lorenzo might be selfish but he's not a moron

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Crutchlows contracted directly to HRC and was on the 2018 prototype at the post season Valencia test. Not sure how much more factory support he needs.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:28 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
You're not going to believe this, but putting -1 (or +1 for that matter) could be taken by a rider to mean something quite different. So I repeat that we weren't privy to the team discussions/instructions/orders prior the race, nor to the list of coded messages and their meanings in different contexts.

Lorenzo might be selfish but he's not a moron
Agreed.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:32 pm 
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mds wrote:
But I do feel that Dall'Igna isn't fully honest, that the -1 was not a suggestion but an order, and that he said what he said for other reasons. My primary idea being to avoid disarray within the team, because next year they will have the same riders and it's in their best interest to keep the pressure from outside as low as possible.
Feel free to think so. I think next year will really be "interesting" if the two riders think differently about this episode to the team, and/or its principal. I don't think that is the case. Don't forget the matter has been debriefed. The results of which we see only partially.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:25 am 
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Zazu wrote:
Crutchlows contracted directly to HRC and was on the 2018 prototype at the post season Valencia test. Not sure how much more factory support he needs.


Because obviously factory support also stops at post season testing. Nothing done during the season, no setup work during racing weekends, no development towards the specific riders' needs, nothing.

Sorry for being sarcastic, but come on.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:26 am 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
But I do feel that Dall'Igna isn't fully honest, that the -1 was not a suggestion but an order, and that he said what he said for other reasons. My primary idea being to avoid disarray within the team, because next year they will have the same riders and it's in their best interest to keep the pressure from outside as low as possible.
Feel free to think so. I think next year will really be "interesting" if the two riders think differently about this episode to the team, and/or its principal. I don't think that is the case. Don't forget the matter has been debriefed. The results of which we see only partially.


Fully aware of that... I do think the internal message was quite different than the external message :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:08 am 
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Crutchlow gearbox will all be sorted by a guy from HRC

Marquez crew (except gearbox technician) have followed him from lower classes. Crutchlow will have his own team for setup and he gets full access to Pedrosa and Marquez data.

He does get input as Honda are trying to make the bike more rideable. Obviously he'll have less input than the guy winning championships.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:27 pm 
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I never said other teams would have no support at all. I stand by my opinion that factory support, for all things I've mentioned, gives a sizeable benefit.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:00 am 
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mds wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:

The (allegedly) greatest rival Rossi ever had when he was winning titles was Sete Gibernau. Perhaps Biaggi...
MM has had Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa... And now Dovizioso and Viñales to contend with. I think it is generally assumed this is a golden age to motorcycle racing comparable to that of Lawson, Rainey, Spencer, Gardner, Schwantz...

IMO, Marquez has already encountered more competition than Rossi ever had when he was winning his titles. Rossi has never won again once this generation of riders came along...


That's not entirely true, Rossi's last two titles came when Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo and Dovi were already there. Stoner was also there.
Overall you might be right, although there are some question marks. How good is Pedrosa still, at this point? And Rossi? Good enough to be there but Pedrosa has been nowhere near (except for the odd race here and there) and Rossi... well, I don't think he is as good as he used to be. Vinales has quite a bit to prove yet and Dovi is great, but one wonders what Marquez would have done with the Ducati.

All in all, I think Marquez is hitting a time frame where the established riders have been steadily declining in form. Still, that doesn't detract from his riding, because the past two seasons he has really done an extraordinary job and he might well go on to become the greatest or not far off. If he keeps up what he's doing, then he'll be right up there. The coming few years will show us that.

Frankly it's getting hard to imagine that in ten years he won't be at least a 10-time champion.


Your points are correct. But I think Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Stoner had just arrived, and all at the same time. That is to say, they were all rookies or unexperienced at the same time. Once they got their footing (and changing categories in moto racing is harder than in cars) Rossi did not win again. Rossi was 29-30 the last time he won a WC. Hardly old. In fact, he has kept his riding level pretty much intact. The problem is that these guys are also very good, and Marc Marquez is obnoxiously good.
In my opinion, Pedrosa is in fact the measure of just how ridiculous Marquez is. I think Pedrosa is as good as he ever was. Which is alien good. And the Honda has not been a great bike since a long time ago. Still, Marquez has won three out of four championships against very stiff competition. It is pretty astonishing.
In my opinion again, MotoGP needs to sort out the tyre issue. It is somewhat depressing that riders need to measure their involvement lap by lap. It detracts from the awe factor that should deservedly float around this generation of riders... Strange from Michelin as well, probably the best tyre maker there ever was...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:11 am 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Again Fiki, please don't act as if team bosses always speak the truth and nothing but the truth. Sure they might have said that, but lots of people in history have said such and acted otherwise. A "+1" pit board does not seem to leave much to the imagination.

But OK, there are no team orders, let's now call them team suggestions. ;)
+1? Are you sure?


Yeah, -1, doesn't change what I said.

Quote:
Mds, you're misrepresenting what I wrote. That's not very nice.


I did put a winking smiley there. But Fiki, ignoring arguments is not very nice either, and you've done this two times now by not acknowledging that team bosses and members do not necessarily speak the truth.
You're not going to believe this, but putting -1 (or +1 for that matter) could be taken by a rider to mean something quite different. So I repeat that we weren't privy to the team discussions/instructions/orders prior the race, nor to the list of coded messages and their meanings in different contexts.

Let me make your day by acknowledging that team bosses and members don't necessarily speak the truth. :nod:

The point is that what Mr Dall'Igna said, dovetails perfectly with the situation we saw develop. He calls it a misunderstanding, which I believe to be true. How many times have we heard a F1 race engineer tell his driver to push, with the flippant reply "What do you think I'm doing?" It illustrates that, no matter the amount of technical detail available to the Houston Space Center Pitwall Crew, what happens in the car or on the bike, isn't always clear to those not actually driving/riding the thing.

No swapping of places during the race had any influence on the championship, as long as the prime condition wasn't met. You know I don't condone crashing into people to take them out of a race, so with Marc still on his bike and in contention, that was it. Dovizioso didn't lose sight of this, neither did Lorenzo. It appears the team did, and made the suggestion to swap places just the same. I take Mr Dall'Igna's statement in the spirit in which it was intended. In fact, I respect him even more because of it.


Correct. I too like Dall'Igna a lot after all his actions, explanations and body language in this last race. I was slowly warming up to him, but he actually seems an intelligent and level person, able to change his approach on the fly, and usually for the better and in a generous way towards his team members. Very good. I would not be surprised this approach produced a period of nice results. Lorenzo and Dovizioso are both probably happy with how the team has treated both and in a good mood for next year. If this is a measure for the rest of the team, it bodes well...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:23 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
mds wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:

The (allegedly) greatest rival Rossi ever had when he was winning titles was Sete Gibernau. Perhaps Biaggi...
MM has had Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa... And now Dovizioso and Viñales to contend with. I think it is generally assumed this is a golden age to motorcycle racing comparable to that of Lawson, Rainey, Spencer, Gardner, Schwantz...

IMO, Marquez has already encountered more competition than Rossi ever had when he was winning his titles. Rossi has never won again once this generation of riders came along...


That's not entirely true, Rossi's last two titles came when Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo and Dovi were already there. Stoner was also there.
Overall you might be right, although there are some question marks. How good is Pedrosa still, at this point? And Rossi? Good enough to be there but Pedrosa has been nowhere near (except for the odd race here and there) and Rossi... well, I don't think he is as good as he used to be. Vinales has quite a bit to prove yet and Dovi is great, but one wonders what Marquez would have done with the Ducati.

All in all, I think Marquez is hitting a time frame where the established riders have been steadily declining in form. Still, that doesn't detract from his riding, because the past two seasons he has really done an extraordinary job and he might well go on to become the greatest or not far off. If he keeps up what he's doing, then he'll be right up there. The coming few years will show us that.

Frankly it's getting hard to imagine that in ten years he won't be at least a 10-time champion.


Your points are correct. But I think Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Stoner had just arrived, and all at the same time. That is to say, they were all rookies or unexperienced at the same time. Once they got their footing (and changing categories in moto racing is harder than in cars) Rossi did not win again. Rossi was 29-30 the last time he won a WC. Hardly old. In fact, he has kept his riding level pretty much intact. The problem is that these guys are also very good, and Marc Marquez is obnoxiously good.
In my opinion, Pedrosa is in fact the measure of just how ridiculous Marquez is. I think Pedrosa is as good as he ever was. Which is alien good. And the Honda has not been a great bike since a long time ago. Still, Marquez has won three out of four championships against very stiff competition. It is pretty astonishing.
In my opinion again, MotoGP needs to sort out the tyre issue. It is somewhat depressing that riders need to measure their involvement lap by lap. It detracts from the awe factor that should deservedly float around this generation of riders... Strange from Michelin as well, probably the best tyre maker there ever was...

As Crutchlow said there is now only one alien and that is Marc Marquez.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
mds wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:

The (allegedly) greatest rival Rossi ever had when he was winning titles was Sete Gibernau. Perhaps Biaggi...
MM has had Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa... And now Dovizioso and Viñales to contend with. I think it is generally assumed this is a golden age to motorcycle racing comparable to that of Lawson, Rainey, Spencer, Gardner, Schwantz...

IMO, Marquez has already encountered more competition than Rossi ever had when he was winning his titles. Rossi has never won again once this generation of riders came along...


That's not entirely true, Rossi's last two titles came when Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo and Dovi were already there. Stoner was also there.
Overall you might be right, although there are some question marks. How good is Pedrosa still, at this point? And Rossi? Good enough to be there but Pedrosa has been nowhere near (except for the odd race here and there) and Rossi... well, I don't think he is as good as he used to be. Vinales has quite a bit to prove yet and Dovi is great, but one wonders what Marquez would have done with the Ducati.

All in all, I think Marquez is hitting a time frame where the established riders have been steadily declining in form. Still, that doesn't detract from his riding, because the past two seasons he has really done an extraordinary job and he might well go on to become the greatest or not far off. If he keeps up what he's doing, then he'll be right up there. The coming few years will show us that.

Frankly it's getting hard to imagine that in ten years he won't be at least a 10-time champion.


Your points are correct. But I think Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Stoner had just arrived, and all at the same time. That is to say, they were all rookies or unexperienced at the same time. Once they got their footing (and changing categories in moto racing is harder than in cars) Rossi did not win again. Rossi was 29-30 the last time he won a WC. Hardly old. In fact, he has kept his riding level pretty much intact. The problem is that these guys are also very good, and Marc Marquez is obnoxiously good.
In my opinion, Pedrosa is in fact the measure of just how ridiculous Marquez is. I think Pedrosa is as good as he ever was. Which is alien good. And the Honda has not been a great bike since a long time ago. Still, Marquez has won three out of four championships against very stiff competition. It is pretty astonishing.
In my opinion again, MotoGP needs to sort out the tyre issue. It is somewhat depressing that riders need to measure their involvement lap by lap. It detracts from the awe factor that should deservedly float around this generation of riders... Strange from Michelin as well, probably the best tyre maker there ever was...

As Crutchlow said there is now only one alien and that is Marc Marquez.


I like Crutchlow, but don't quite agree... All the others have not dropped the ball. It is just a measure of how astonishingly good and a rare talent Marquez is.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:52 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As Crutchlow said there is now only one alien and that is Marc Marquez.

I like Crutchlow, but don't quite agree... All the others have not dropped the ball. It is just a measure of how astonishingly good and a rare talent Marquez is.

I'm confused - isn't that exactly what Crutchlow is saying?

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:07 am 
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Exediron wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As Crutchlow said there is now only one alien and that is Marc Marquez.

I like Crutchlow, but don't quite agree... All the others have not dropped the ball. It is just a measure of how astonishingly good and a rare talent Marquez is.

I'm confused - isn't that exactly what Crutchlow is saying?

Yep. :)

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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