planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:19 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23897
Pest44 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I don't think I'll ever get over what Lorenzo has done today


Shocking from Lorenzo. Shows what sort of character he is

He ignored team orders and chose not to help Dovi, not good.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23897
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I don't think I'll ever get over what Lorenzo has done today
Assume for a moment he had let Dovizioso past and early enough. What good would that have done to either Dovizioso or Ducati, as long as Marquez was not in trouble?
We might have seen a nice fight between the two title candidates, but nothing more, I think.

Nobody knows what kind of pressure, if any, that Dovi could have put the Hondas under. As Marquez showed, he's not infallible and is susceptible to mistakes. One thing was certain, he couldn't apply any pressure when stuck behind Lorenzo
They all made mistakes, showing it's not just "pressure" that makes them make mistakes. Marquez make a mistake when in position to throw the title away. And Dovizioso made one when Marquez was behind him.

As long as Dovizioso was not in a position to take the title, I don't see why Lorenzo would feel obliged to give up his position. It would have altered nothing in the championship standings.

He didn't concede position to Dovi in the previous race either, he races for himself.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23897
Zazu wrote:
I'm in Valencia. I don't know how it looked on TV but lorenzo was faster than Dovi and has been all weekend. They were just managing the race (tyres) As soon as Marquez went off Lorenzo closed in on the front 2

Hondas and Zarco far too fast. Factory Yamaha far too slow. No chance Dovi was getting the title today

Whilst Dovi said they were flat out throughout the race, maybe Dovi's flat out might have been a little quicker?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23897
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Nobody knows what kind of pressure, if any, that Dovi could have put the Hondas under. As Marquez showed, he's not infallible and is susceptible to mistakes. One thing was certain, he couldn't apply any pressure when stuck behind Lorenzo
They all made mistakes, showing it's not just "pressure" that makes them make mistakes. Marquez make a mistake when in position to throw the title away. And Dovizioso made one when Marquez was behind him.

As long as Dovizioso was not in a position to take the title, I don't see why Lorenzo would feel obliged to give up his position. It would have altered nothing in the championship standings.

At the point in time that he was holding Dovi up there was just no way of knowing what could happen. It's not like Lorenzo could read the future

The end result is not the point. It's about maximising the chances of influencing the end result. Lorenzo didn't allow Dovi maximise his chances to influence Marquez's result. And all that is aside from the fact he ignored a direct instruction from his team
I already made my point about pressure, which only leaves your remark about a direct instruction from the team. You know I would much prefer no team orders ever, but I propose that next time Ducati drop the word "suggested" from any team orders.

I don't honestly know whether team orders are allowed in MotoGP, so perhaps they have to phrase it that way, but that still would not alter my views on team orders. I also doubt Dovizioso would have been much more successful against Pedrosa, than he was against the sister bike.

This makes no difference, Lorenzo ignored a team instruction and rode for himself whilst Pedrosa rode for Marquez.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6831
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
They all made mistakes, showing it's not just "pressure" that makes them make mistakes. Marquez make a mistake when in position to throw the title away. And Dovizioso made one when Marquez was behind him.

As long as Dovizioso was not in a position to take the title, I don't see why Lorenzo would feel obliged to give up his position. It would have altered nothing in the championship standings.

At the point in time that he was holding Dovi up there was just no way of knowing what could happen. It's not like Lorenzo could read the future

The end result is not the point. It's about maximising the chances of influencing the end result. Lorenzo didn't allow Dovi maximise his chances to influence Marquez's result. And all that is aside from the fact he ignored a direct instruction from his team
I already made my point about pressure, which only leaves your remark about a direct instruction from the team. You know I would much prefer no team orders ever, but I propose that next time Ducati drop the word "suggested" from any team orders.

I don't honestly know whether team orders are allowed in MotoGP, so perhaps they have to phrase it that way, but that still would not alter my views on team orders. I also doubt Dovizioso would have been much more successful against Pedrosa, than he was against the sister bike.

This makes no difference, Lorenzo ignored a team instruction and rode for himself whilst Pedrosa rode for Marquez.

As I said earlier, if the team wants to give an instruction, or an order, they should consider dropping the word "suggestion" from their message.

But also, as you might have concluded from seeing Lorenzo greet Dovizioso after the race, all was well. They knew the real situation before, during and after the race. It's very easy for us to talk about team orders being ignored, but the team and the drivers knew well before the race that regardless of Lorenzo giving up position, Marquez had to finish outside the top 11 if Dovizioso won. As long as Dovizioso didn't have the performance to pass Lorenzo, how was he going to go past Marquez? He wasn't, that's the answer. As acknowledged by Dovi himself in the post-race interview.

Also, we don't know how Lorenzo would have reacted had the conditions been in Dovizioso's favour. But they weren't, and that was clear. This is not a case of sabotaged teamwork, it is one of useless "teamwork". The result would have been no better - with regards to the title - than what we saw.

I have seen a wise and sporting rider getting his first shot at the title this year. And it has allowed me to discover just how wise and sporting he really is. Dovizioso is a jewel in the crown of MotoGP, and I hope he does it next year.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9718
Location: Ireland
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
They all made mistakes, showing it's not just "pressure" that makes them make mistakes. Marquez make a mistake when in position to throw the title away. And Dovizioso made one when Marquez was behind him.

As long as Dovizioso was not in a position to take the title, I don't see why Lorenzo would feel obliged to give up his position. It would have altered nothing in the championship standings.

At the point in time that he was holding Dovi up there was just no way of knowing what could happen. It's not like Lorenzo could read the future

The end result is not the point. It's about maximising the chances of influencing the end result. Lorenzo didn't allow Dovi maximise his chances to influence Marquez's result. And all that is aside from the fact he ignored a direct instruction from his team
I already made my point about pressure, which only leaves your remark about a direct instruction from the team. You know I would much prefer no team orders ever, but I propose that next time Ducati drop the word "suggested" from any team orders.

I don't honestly know whether team orders are allowed in MotoGP, so perhaps they have to phrase it that way, but that still would not alter my views on team orders. I also doubt Dovizioso would have been much more successful against Pedrosa, than he was against the sister bike.

This makes no difference, Lorenzo ignored a team instruction and rode for himself whilst Pedrosa rode for Marquez.

As I said earlier, if the team wants to give an instruction, or an order, they should consider dropping the word "suggestion" from their message.

The pit board had a direct instruction to drop one position. Nothing "suggested" about that one

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9718
Location: Ireland
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
They all made mistakes, showing it's not just "pressure" that makes them make mistakes. Marquez make a mistake when in position to throw the title away. And Dovizioso made one when Marquez was behind him.

As long as Dovizioso was not in a position to take the title, I don't see why Lorenzo would feel obliged to give up his position. It would have altered nothing in the championship standings.

At the point in time that he was holding Dovi up there was just no way of knowing what could happen. It's not like Lorenzo could read the future

The end result is not the point. It's about maximising the chances of influencing the end result. Lorenzo didn't allow Dovi maximise his chances to influence Marquez's result. And all that is aside from the fact he ignored a direct instruction from his team
I already made my point about pressure, which only leaves your remark about a direct instruction from the team. You know I would much prefer no team orders ever, but I propose that next time Ducati drop the word "suggested" from any team orders.

I don't honestly know whether team orders are allowed in MotoGP, so perhaps they have to phrase it that way, but that still would not alter my views on team orders. I also doubt Dovizioso would have been much more successful against Pedrosa, than he was against the sister bike.

Yeah, you acknowledged that pressure is one of the things that causes mistakes, which would ordinarily make me think you're in agreement with me
But then you went on saying it would have been pointless to give Dovi the chance to apply any pressure, which leaves me confused about your response
I more or less acknowledged that pressure can make you commit errors, but tell me what kind of pressure by Dovizioso could make Marquez finish outside the top 11 (if I understood correctly)? The fairly serious error he did make, came when there was near-zero pressure.

By the way, I was hoping Dovizioso would win the championship for most of this year. He really, really merited the title. But he first had to win it, which he didn't.

At that point in time nobody knew what kind of pressure Dovi could put the Hondas under - not you, not me, not Lorenzo. And that's the point. As you've correctly pointed out, Marquez made a serious error when under no pressure at all!

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6831
Location: Belgium
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
As I said earlier, if the team wants to give an instruction, or an order, they should consider dropping the word "suggestion" from their message.

The pit board had a direct instruction to drop one position. Nothing "suggested" about that one
And what makes that an instruction, rather than a suggestion? The arrow? The colour?

We don't know what was discussed and/or decided prior the race. What we do know is what Lorenzo said before the race. What we also know is what Dovizioso said after the race. Which confirms that those who knew a position switch was useless, were right.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
One has to just admire the kind of results MM is bringing in. I might not be a fan of his (yet?), but aged 24 and with 6 titles under his belt, he's on target to get at least 10. Rossi at that age had one championship less.

It'll probably depend heavily on whether Marquez encounters a driver in his prime and on a good bike that can really rival him and take titles off him.

Congrats to the man.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1522
How competitive is MotoGP compared to F1? So many of the riders are either Italian or Spanish though from what I gather it's becoming more international in recent years??


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 4279
Shame from Lorenzo. I don't think it would have won Dovi the race but that was a foolish performance by Jorge. I'd imagine the whole team is upset with him. That was extremely selfish and, considering he wasn't even in position to win himself, it wasn't worth it.

Marc deserves the championship. He was the best rider on the season yet again and he is on his way to challenging Rossi and Agostini for best all time status.

Looking to next year; I really think that 2018 will be the final season of Rossi's career. Zarco has to get that promotion IMO. He has been the best Yamaha rider this year if you asked me.

It will be exciting to see whether Lorenzo can take that big step forward next year. He had a disappointing year overall. Okay, it makes sense that it would take time to adapt to the bike but I honestly expected more from him by time we got into the second half of the season. Dovi showed what the bike was capable of and Jorge just never seemed to figure it all out. His pace at times was impressive though and I expect him to be on it next year. I just think it's a bad way to end the year for him. Getting in the way for so long and then crashing out...

For Marc and Honda, this year was a step in the right direction and I half expect next year to be a return to 2013-2014 levels of domination for Honda. I expect Marc to win again until I see differently.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Invade wrote:
How competitive is MotoGP compared to F1? So many of the riders are either Italian or Spanish though from what I gather it's becoming more international in recent years??


Well... As in F1, you need to be on the best bikes to win. First of all, there's factory teams vs satellite teams, the latter of which often (not always) get older bikes, do not get full factory support - basically you aren't winning if you're in a satellite team. Then there's the factory teams against each other - it's clear that you won't win the title on a KTM for now, and the 2017 Yamaha M1 was too fickle to realistically contend with either.

So this year was a race between two teams, Honda and Ducati.
And last year it was Honda and Yamaha.

So this is comparable to F1, just swap "factory teams" with "high-budget teams".

As for nationalities... It seems like there is just a lot more interest in motor racing in Italy and Spain, than in other countries. In Spain they have their own Moto3 championship (FIM CEV Moto3) with mostly Spanish and Italian riders, which serves as a step-up to the "official" Moto3 championship.
There's also the Red Bull Rookies cup which is a bit more international.

So it's not weird to see that also in Moto3 most are Italian or Spanish, which will then have an effect on Moto2 and MotoGP.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:08 am
Posts: 103
It's funny how lots of people on the Internet are really upset even after Dovi has come out and said he was riding over the limit just to stay with Lorenzo. Which his crash highlighted as well.

I don't know how to post pics on here via phone but there's a picture of the marquez save/crash from head on. The guy is unreal

Lorenzo had a really good end to the year. I don't think he's far away at all and once he gets the first win he will be a major force.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
sandman1347 wrote:
Looking to next year; I really think that 2018 will be the final season of Rossi's career. Zarco has to get that promotion IMO. He has been the best Yamaha rider this year if you asked me.


It's hard to say. The 2017 M1, on multiple occasions, seemed like a genuine step back compared to the 2016 M1.
It'll be interesting to see which bike Tech3 will run next year. If it'll be the 2017 M1, then Zarco's performances should learn us a lot more about both bikes.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:08 am
Posts: 103
MotoGP is massive in Spain and Italy hence the abundance of riders. Dorna are having a big push to try and capitalise on the interest in Asia as well

Its mega competitive and the riders makes a huge difference. It's not comparable to F1 at all. Yamaha, Honda and Ducati all had decent seasons. Yamaha just had a really bad end esp as they don't work in the wet. Marquez would win or be very close at Cota, sacsenring, aragon etc on any of the factory bikes on the grid and most if not all of the satellite ones.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Zazu wrote:
Its mega competitive and the riders makes a huge difference. It's not comparable to F1 at all.


How is it not? The parallels of F1 2017 and MotoGP 2017 are easy to see. There's only a realistic hope of winning a race if you're driving/riding for one of 3 teams (Merc/Ferrari/RBR - Honda/Ducati/Yamaha), there's only a realistic hope of the title if you're driving/riding for one of two teams (Merc/Ferrari - Honda/Ducati), and overall it's the big budget/factory teams that will compete in any one season.

Rider influence over ultimate performance might make more difference than driver influence in F1, but still not enough to overcome clear bike differences. If not Zarco e.g. would have probably already been in the title hunt.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1522
Thanks for that info.

I guess also what I was asking was: how many comparable talents are there to Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo?

Marquez for sure. Who knows, maybe he's a greater talent than any of the above? Who else would you put in that bracket of talent and I don't just mean relative to the MotoGP field but outright talent when thinking about talent pools and where the best racers usually end up in terms of race series and so on...? I know Rossi is still about but he seems to be on the downslide.

I'll probably pay attention to MotoGP next season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:08 am
Posts: 103
You keep saying Honda/Ducati for 2017. It's marquez/Dovi as the table shows. At the start of the season Yamaha was the best bike and if they raced at a circuit that suits them tomorrow they'd be favourites (eg le man's)

Crutchlows Honda at times is identical to the factories. There's a press conference where he talks about it. The cars outside the top 6 in f1 are operating at a completely different level and impossible to win in.

If you Sat any F1 driver in the merc at a merc track at worst they'd podium. If you gave most of the motogp grid a repsol Honda they wouldn't all of a sudden be winning.

If vinales/marquez etc were Sat on the suzuki they'd have race wins this year. KTMs development has been astonishing as well. Aprilia don't have stellar line up but even in qualifying espagaro competes at the sharp end


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1522
Also, the racers made a huge difference this year in F1 regarding the WDC race. Good job Merc have Hamilton and Ferrari have Vettel and I suspect Red Bull will have a package next year where yet another driver (my bet is Max but we'll see) will have the chance to make the difference himself in a WDC race.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:08 am
Posts: 103
I've been watching motogp and the lower classes since 2006. Marquez is the best I've seen. Stoner, Vinales, lorenzo etc extremely fast but marquez excels in all areas. He makes mind blowing stuff look routine


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:08 am
Posts: 103
Also, Vinales and Rossi have had better seasons (wins, podiums) than zarco.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 4279
mds wrote:
Zazu wrote:
Its mega competitive and the riders makes a huge difference. It's not comparable to F1 at all.


How is it not? The parallels of F1 2017 and MotoGP 2017 are easy to see. There's only a realistic hope of winning a race if you're driving/riding for one of 3 teams (Merc/Ferrari/RBR - Honda/Ducati/Yamaha), there's only a realistic hope of the title if you're driving/riding for one of two teams (Merc/Ferrari - Honda/Ducati), and overall it's the big budget/factory teams that will compete in any one season.

Rider influence over ultimate performance might make more difference than driver influence in F1, but still not enough to overcome clear bike differences. If not Zarco e.g. would have probably already been in the title hunt.

No that's simply not true at all. In F1 it's probably about 75/25 in terms of the importance of the car vs the importance of the driver. In MotoGP it's more like 50/50. Last season, for example, Marc was able to win the championship with probably the third or fourth best bike. To do that in F1 would border on impossible. This year, we've seen riders like Zarco and Petrucci finish on the podium multiple times with customer bikes.

Perhaps above all, it is normal for wins to be determined by wheel to wheel battles which go down to the last lap. The 1 or 2 times that happens in an F1 season are heralded as a breath of fresh air. There's really no comparison actually.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6831
Location: Belgium
Zazu wrote:
It's funny how lots of people on the Internet are really upset even after Dovi has come out and said he was riding over the limit just to stay with Lorenzo. Which his crash highlighted as well.
Well, if they didn't know about what Dovi said, it is easy to understand how they might reason that being stuck behind Lorenzo, his tyres might have suffered more than necessary. That they misunderstand the team orders episode is another matter.

During the race, I couldn't help but wonder what the influence of Lorenzo's winglets/fairing might have had on Dovizioso, but I would suppose they had enough experience by now to figure that in.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Zazu wrote:
You keep saying Honda/Ducati for 2017. It's marquez/Dovi as the table shows.


Well, in F1 then it was not Mercedes/Ferrari but Hamilton/Vettel.

Quote:
At the start of the season Yamaha was the best bike and if they raced at a circuit that suits them tomorrow they'd be favourites (eg le man's)


So a third team that can win in specific conditions? Bit like RBR this year?

Quote:
Crutchlows Honda at times is identical to the factories.


Crutchlow's best result was a third place, and both factory Honda's as well as Dovi DNF'd. Stroll also got a podium...

Quote:
There's a press conference where he talks about it. The cars outside the top 6 in f1 are operating at a completely different level and impossible to win in.


The satellite bikes in MotoGP often are literally the old bikes the factory team doesn't use anymore because they have something better. And if not, they lack the factory support that will always give the factory team an edge. There are outliers, like the 2017 M1 being very hit-and-miss from weekend to weekend, but the pattern is clear.

Quote:
If you Sat any F1 driver in the merc at a merc track at worst they'd podium. If you gave most of the motogp grid a repsol Honda they wouldn't all of a sudden be winning.


I already accounted for this to a certain extent. Quoting myself:
Rider influence over ultimate performance might make more difference than driver influence in F1, but still not enough to overcome clear bike differences. If not Zarco e.g. would have probably already been in the title hunt.

Put Marquez on the current KTM and he will not contend for the title. Just like Alonso isn't in the McLaren. Put Zarco on a top bike... he will.

Quote:
If vinales/marquez etc were Sat on the suzuki they'd have race wins this year. KTMs development has been astonishing as well. Aprilia don't have stellar line up but even in qualifying espagaro competes at the sharp end


These are all factory efforts. Give Williams the same budget as Mercedes and they will contend for wins. But still, KTM nor Aprilia nor Suzuki would be contending for titles.


Look, you can say what you want, but much like in F1 you need to be in the right team in MotoGP to contend for titles, and even for (regular) wins. And those teams will inevitably be one of the high-budget factory efforts. And if you're not in those then you can only hope to go to one one day because if not, the odd podium and maybe a win in the wet or something is the highest you will ever achieve. And that is VERY reminiscent of what we see in F1.
Even if the rider has a somewhat higher degree of importance in MotoGP.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
sandman1347 wrote:
No that's simply not true at all. In F1 it's probably about 75/25 in terms of the importance of the car vs the importance of the driver. In MotoGP it's more like 50/50.


I accounted for that.

Quote:
Last season, for example, Marc was able to win the championship with probably the third or fourth best bike. To do that in F1 would border on impossible.


I think it was much better than fourth best, to be honest. And others downright underperformed and binned it way too much. If a driver in F1 keeps on crashing even if he's the fastest in the fastest car, he won't win the title either.

Quote:
This year, we've seen riders like Zarco and Petrucci finish on the podium multiple times with customer bikes.


We've seen Stroll podium...

Quote:
Perhaps above all, it is normal for wins to be determined by wheel to wheel battles which go down to the last lap.


Yeah, but it's not always because the performance differential is so close. Lots of times you can just see/sense a rider just tucks in behind, concealing lots of speed, to then make a move on the final laps. The tyres play a huge role in this, at various times they were all running far slower than they could because they were afraid the tyres would give up.

Just look at Sunday. Pedrosa tucks in, you knew he would be going for it in the last lap, he did, passed, and Zarco couldn't threaten him anymore.

Races are also shorter, no stops for tyre changes, no alternative strategies.

Quote:
There's really no comparison actually.


OK, then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. As long as I don't see a talented Tech3 rider (or any other satellite team rider) contending for regular wins and a title until he gets his big break and moves to a factory team, I will stick to mine.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:37 pm
Posts: 606
mds wrote:
One has to just admire the kind of results MM is bringing in. I might not be a fan of his (yet?), but aged 24 and with 6 titles under his belt, he's on target to get at least 10. Rossi at that age had one championship less.

It'll probably depend heavily on whether Marquez encounters a driver in his prime and on a good bike that can really rival him and take titles off him.

Congrats to the man.


The (allegedly) greatest rival Rossi ever had when he was winning titles was Sete Gibernau. Perhaps Biaggi...
MM has had Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa... And now Dovizioso and Viñales to contend with. I think it is generally assumed this is a golden age to motorcycle racing comparable to that of Lawson, Rainey, Spencer, Gardner, Schwantz...

IMO, Marquez has already encountered more competition than Rossi ever had when he was winning his titles. Rossi has never won again once this generation of riders came along...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6831
Location: Belgium
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
As I said earlier, if the team wants to give an instruction, or an order, they should consider dropping the word "suggestion" from their message.

The pit board had a direct instruction to drop one position. Nothing "suggested" about that one
And what makes that an instruction, rather than a suggestion? The arrow? The colour?

We don't know what was discussed and/or decided prior the race. What we do know is what Lorenzo said before the race. What we also know is what Dovizioso said after the race. Which confirms that those who knew a position switch was useless, were right.
Sometimes even I get it right, even during the race itself...

Autosport wrote:
Dall'Igna conceded that Ducati misjudged the situation because it thought Dovizioso was quicker.

"This was a suggestion, not an order," he said. "I think it was our misunderstanding watching the TV.


If you wish to read the full article: https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/133015/ducati-lorenzo-order-was-a-misunderstanding

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9718
Location: Ireland
Fiki wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
As I said earlier, if the team wants to give an instruction, or an order, they should consider dropping the word "suggestion" from their message.

The pit board had a direct instruction to drop one position. Nothing "suggested" about that one
And what makes that an instruction, rather than a suggestion? The arrow? The colour?

We don't know what was discussed and/or decided prior the race. What we do know is what Lorenzo said before the race. What we also know is what Dovizioso said after the race. Which confirms that those who knew a position switch was useless, were right.
Sometimes even I get it right, even during the race itself...

Autosport wrote:
Dall'Igna conceded that Ducati misjudged the situation because it thought Dovizioso was quicker.

"This was a suggestion, not an order," he said. "I think it was our misunderstanding watching the TV.


If you wish to read the full article: https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/133015/ducati-lorenzo-order-was-a-misunderstanding

He's literally only talking about "Suggested Mapping 8". He didn't mention the pit board. You can pretend all you like that you don't believe the pit board was a direct order. But everyone knows that it was

Again the argument that the position switch was useless is missing the point. It's not about the end result. Lorenzo should have been helping Dovi best prepare for any unexpected event, not reacting after an unexpected event has happened

But he's a selfish guy and it's not his problem. So be it

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23897
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
As I said earlier, if the team wants to give an instruction, or an order, they should consider dropping the word "suggestion" from their message.

The pit board had a direct instruction to drop one position. Nothing "suggested" about that one
And what makes that an instruction, rather than a suggestion? The arrow? The colour?

We don't know what was discussed and/or decided prior the race. What we do know is what Lorenzo said before the race. What we also know is what Dovizioso said after the race. Which confirms that those who knew a position switch was useless, were right.
Sometimes even I get it right, even during the race itself...

Autosport wrote:
Dall'Igna conceded that Ducati misjudged the situation because it thought Dovizioso was quicker.

"This was a suggestion, not an order," he said. "I think it was our misunderstanding watching the TV.


If you wish to read the full article: https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/133015/ducati-lorenzo-order-was-a-misunderstanding

He's literally only talking about "Suggested Mapping 8". He didn't mention the pit board. You can pretend all you like that you don't believe the pit board was a direct order. But everyone knows that it was

Again the argument that the position switch was useless is missing the point. It's not about the end result. Lorenzo should have been helping Dovi best prepare for any unexpected event, not reacting after an unexpected event has happened

But he's a selfish guy and it's not his problem. So be it

Let's not forget the previous race as well when he was leading with not that many laps to go and never let Dovi past, Dovi went by after Lorenzo made a mistake and ran wide, what was Lorenzo's intention?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6831
Location: Belgium
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
As I said earlier, if the team wants to give an instruction, or an order, they should consider dropping the word "suggestion" from their message.

The pit board had a direct instruction to drop one position. Nothing "suggested" about that one
And what makes that an instruction, rather than a suggestion? The arrow? The colour?

We don't know what was discussed and/or decided prior the race. What we do know is what Lorenzo said before the race. What we also know is what Dovizioso said after the race. Which confirms that those who knew a position switch was useless, were right.
Sometimes even I get it right, even during the race itself...

Autosport wrote:
Dall'Igna conceded that Ducati misjudged the situation because it thought Dovizioso was quicker.

"This was a suggestion, not an order," he said. "I think it was our misunderstanding watching the TV.


If you wish to read the full article: https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/133015/ducati-lorenzo-order-was-a-misunderstanding

He's literally only talking about "Suggested Mapping 8". He didn't mention the pit board. You can pretend all you like that you don't believe the pit board was a direct order. But everyone knows that it was

Again the argument that the position switch was useless is missing the point. It's not about the end result. Lorenzo should have been helping Dovi best prepare for any unexpected event, not reacting after an unexpected event has happened

But he's a selfish guy and it's not his problem. So be it
I see... So... how did you work out that Mr Dall'Igna means exactly the opposite of what he says? And do you think Lorenzo was aware of this? 8-)

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Fiki, don't be so gullible... That a message with "suggested" in it can be seen as a suggestion, that seems logical. But that a pit board with "+1", nothing more nothing less, isn't a direct order, I can't see how you can refute it.

And if you're going to insist that because the team boss said so it must be true, then you will probably need to revise some opinions you hold about F1 particularly ;)

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Last edited by mds on Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:

The (allegedly) greatest rival Rossi ever had when he was winning titles was Sete Gibernau. Perhaps Biaggi...
MM has had Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa... And now Dovizioso and Viñales to contend with. I think it is generally assumed this is a golden age to motorcycle racing comparable to that of Lawson, Rainey, Spencer, Gardner, Schwantz...

IMO, Marquez has already encountered more competition than Rossi ever had when he was winning his titles. Rossi has never won again once this generation of riders came along...


That's not entirely true, Rossi's last two titles came when Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo and Dovi were already there. Stoner was also there.
Overall you might be right, although there are some question marks. How good is Pedrosa still, at this point? And Rossi? Good enough to be there but Pedrosa has been nowhere near (except for the odd race here and there) and Rossi... well, I don't think he is as good as he used to be. Vinales has quite a bit to prove yet and Dovi is great, but one wonders what Marquez would have done with the Ducati.

All in all, I think Marquez is hitting a time frame where the established riders have been steadily declining in form. Still, that doesn't detract from his riding, because the past two seasons he has really done an extraordinary job and he might well go on to become the greatest or not far off. If he keeps up what he's doing, then he'll be right up there. The coming few years will show us that.

Frankly it's getting hard to imagine that in ten years he won't be at least a 10-time champion.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6831
Location: Belgium
mds wrote:
Fiki, don't be so gullible... That a message with "suggested" in it can be seen as a suggestion, that seems logical. But that a pit board with "+1", nothing more nothing less, isn't a direct order, I can't see how you can refute it.

And if you're going to insist that because the team boss said so it must be true, then you will probably need to revise some opinions you hold about F1 particularly ;)
What's the use in sending a team order only using pit signals, when you can do it via a dashboard message? Consequently, what's the use in pretending that one is a suggestion, and the other an order? We know from the team that there would be no team orders:

Quote:
One thing is sure for Paolo Ciabatti, Ducati Corse Sporting Director - there are no team orders.

"There will be no team orders," says the Italian. "We do not like team orders. If any Ducati rider has the chance to win a race, we will be happy, but if there is a different situation we expect them to use their brain."
Source: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2017/10/19/will-lorenzo-help-dovizioso/243008

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Again Fiki, please don't act as if team bosses always speak the truth and nothing but the truth. Sure they might have said that, but lots of people in history have said such and acted otherwise. A "+1" pit board does not seem to leave much to the imagination.

But OK, there are no team orders, let's now call them team suggestions. ;)

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:08 am
Posts: 103
Mds some of your posts are complete delusion.

F1 and current motogp competitiveness isn't comparable at all. Since they toned down the electrics in motogp it's like chalk and cheese

Crutchlow and marquez regularly have exactly the same bike and there's quotes from the pair of them to that effect. MM would have won the World title on crutchlows bike. Suzuki had a rookie who suffered from injuries and iannone. I'm sure if vinales was still on it they'd have won races and mounted a title challenge. MM might not have won the World title on the KTM but he would have battled for race wins esp as ktm goes well in the wet and he's in a league of his own at some circuits.

Rossi's titles came in a completely different era where there was an f1 style gulf between the haves and have nots. To suggest Marquez is just beating riders on the decline is absurd.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Zazu wrote:
Mds some of your posts are complete delusion.


Thank you for being so polite, I guess.

Quote:
F1 and current motogp competitiveness isn't comparable at all. Since they toned down the electrics in motogp it's like chalk and cheese


The big budget factory efforts are the ones taking the titles, and have done for many years. As I have already stated, the rider does make more difference than a driver can in F1, but still, if you are not on the right bike, you will not win a title. You will not win a title on a KTM (for now), nor on a Suzuki, nor on this year's Yam, and if you aren't in a factory team chances are very slim either, especially if you aren't on a current-year bike because then you get last year's leftovers - but even if you are on a current-year bike, then the lack of factory support is kind of a big deal.

Quote:
Crutchlow and marquez regularly have exactly the same bike and there's quotes from the pair of them to that effect.


But Crutchlow doesn't get factory support. Don't know how many times I have to repeat it.

Quote:
MM would have won the World title on crutchlows bike.


Would, should, could. Doesn't happen though.

Quote:
Suzuki had a rookie who suffered from injuries and iannone.


Iannone might be crash-happy, he is not a slow rider.

Quote:
I'm sure if vinales was still on it they'd have won races and mounted a title challenge.


Of course you're sure. I'm sure that's bollocks though - the title challenge part definitely is.

Quote:
Rossi's titles came in a completely different era where there was an f1 style gulf between the haves and have nots. To suggest Marquez is just beating riders on the decline is absurd.


What I have said is:
- Rossi and Pedrosa are not as good as they used to be
- Vinales has a lot to prove yet
- One can question what Marquez would have done on the Ducati

If that to you is "absurd"... Well, fine. I don't think it is, and I think it's well supported by what we've seen over the past years.

Also, try to read and understand what I'm actually saying. I'm not saying he is doing "just" that. His own form is not connected to that of his opponents: one of my points was that regardless of how good the riders are he is up against, he himself is riding supremely well and is en route to become one of the very greatest in motorcycle racing history. I'd put him there already based on current form but he still has at least two thirds of his MotoGP career to go, and he will have to keep his form up. But he's absolutely doing all the right things. I'm crediting the man, and what you apparently get out of it is that I'm slighting him. :uhoh:

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4551
Location: Michigan, USA
mds wrote:
I'm crediting the man, and what you apparently get out of it is that I'm slighting him. :uhoh:

But you're not crediting him enough. It's like saying Hamilton will probably be a top ten all-time driver when he retires; that's actually an insult against Lewis, I've learned.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6831
Location: Belgium
mds wrote:
Again Fiki, please don't act as if team bosses always speak the truth and nothing but the truth. Sure they might have said that, but lots of people in history have said such and acted otherwise. A "+1" pit board does not seem to leave much to the imagination.

But OK, there are no team orders, let's now call them team suggestions. ;)
+1? Are you sure?

Mds, you're misrepresenting what I wrote. That's not very nice.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm crediting the man, and what you apparently get out of it is that I'm slighting him. :uhoh:

But you're not crediting him enough. It's like saying Hamilton will probably be a top ten all-time driver when he retires; that's actually an insult against Lewis, I've learned.


How am I not crediting him enough? I'm saying if he keeps up doing what he's doing, he will be one of the (if not the) greatest in history. How is that not enough? That is pretty much literally saying that these past years his level has been among the best we've ever seen. There is no way to give more credit than that.

We don't have crystal balls, we don't know what he will do in the future. If he, from here on on, fails to win a further title and is regularly beaten by newly brought in teammates, then he would probably not qualify as GOAT. I can't possibly know that, so what can I say more than I'm already doing?

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Last edited by mds on Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10780
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Again Fiki, please don't act as if team bosses always speak the truth and nothing but the truth. Sure they might have said that, but lots of people in history have said such and acted otherwise. A "+1" pit board does not seem to leave much to the imagination.

But OK, there are no team orders, let's now call them team suggestions. ;)
+1? Are you sure?


Yeah, -1, doesn't change what I said.

Quote:
Mds, you're misrepresenting what I wrote. That's not very nice.


I did put a winking smiley there. But Fiki, ignoring arguments is not very nice either, and you've done this two times now by not acknowledging that team bosses and members do not necessarily speak the truth.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bigbazz and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group