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 Post subject: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:28 am 
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I have to admit not knowing much about Giovinazzi, but if I were the team boss, and able too, I think I would make the change permanent.

Pascal's reason for not racing sounds soft to me. A racer wants to race no matter what. It does not seem to be a case of being physically unable to race or having injury's that would hamper him or even slow him, just "Oh, I'm not up to it"


I will say that if I misunderstand the issue, I apologise, but still would take Giovinazzi. :]

Oh, and I also have to own up to not being pascals biggest fan, so that may affect my judgement


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:04 am 
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All I can say is that his injury from the RoC race must've been much worse than what I heard reported and he was only just been able to get back to training. Back and neck injuries are tricky *inaudible* and CT/MRI/X-Rays don't tell the whole story so only the patient really knows how bad it is.

That said if it allows Sauber to get a break on their PU's from Ferrari they might keep Gio on board even if there isn't much between him and Pascal or the tales of the German not being a good team player are true.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:25 am 
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I certainly think Giovinazzi is better than Ericsson, I know there's only one race to go on but given their respective junior careers I would have expected it to be the case anyway.

It will be interesting to see how Wehrlien stacks up against Ericsson, I have a feeling that Wehrlien and Giovinazzi would be a good young pairing. If Ferrari were willing to facilitate it I'd jump at the chance to put him in the car personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:31 am 
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Wehrlein not wanting to race all of a sudden seems a little intriguing. I wonder if he was told to move aside (with or without his health concerns)?

Giovinazzi did a very good job. He said that he didn't push to the limit. For his 1st race, he proved to be a mature driver by bringing the car home in 12th.

I'd keep him over Wehrlein. If he again drives for Sauber in China or replaces Wehrlein altogether, I see Wehrlein's career in F1 over already. Being snubbed twice is a very big dent.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:25 pm 
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I think Wehrlein may have just shot himself in the foot - the last thing he needed was for Giovinazzi to have such a solid weekend.

I know the approach to drivers with injuries is far different to the old days (Mansell springs to mind), but he's done himself no favors at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Giovanazzi is good, but what actually makes Wherlein so bad? He scored the point with Manor. Ocon and the other fellas didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:01 pm 
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moby wrote:
I have to admit not knowing much about Giovinazzi, but if I were the team boss, and able too, I think I would make the change permanent.

Pascal's reason for not racing sounds soft to me. A racer wants to race no matter what. It does not seem to be a case of being physically unable to race or having injury's that would hamper him or even slow him, just "Oh, I'm not up to it"


I will say that if I misunderstand the issue, I apologise, but still would take Giovinazzi. :]

Oh, and I also have to own up to not being pascals biggest fan, so that may affect my judgement


I think you're being a little unfair.

The BIB is pretty much the exact reason he gave and actually when you think about it, it's quite a team player decision. He could have started the race knowing he did not have the fitness to finish and tailed off dramatically or have had to retire. By stepping aside he actually gave his team a chance to score with that car.

Seeing how much fairy cakes he is getting for that decision kind of shows how brave it was to do that. It would have been much easier to try to race and then pull in after half distance siting exhaustion.

If he thought he probably couldn't finish then he did the best thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
moby wrote:
I have to admit not knowing much about Giovinazzi, but if I were the team boss, and able too, I think I would make the change permanent.

Pascal's reason for not racing sounds soft to me. A racer wants to race no matter what. It does not seem to be a case of being physically unable to race or having injury's that would hamper him or even slow him, just "Oh, I'm not up to it"


I will say that if I misunderstand the issue, I apologise, but still would take Giovinazzi. :]

Oh, and I also have to own up to not being pascals biggest fan, so that may affect my judgement


I think you're being a little unfair.

The BIB is pretty much the exact reason he gave and actually when you think about it, it's quite a team player decision. He could have started the race knowing he did not have the fitness to finish and tailed off dramatically or have had to retire. By stepping aside he actually gave his team a chance to score with that car.

Seeing how much fairy cakes he is getting for that decision kind of shows how brave it was to do that. It would have been much easier to try to race and then pull in after half distance siting exhaustion.

If he thought he probably couldn't finish then he did the best thing.


But he, and the doctors who passed him off, say he is not injured. If that was the case, he could not be expected to race.
He just claims to be not race fit.

He was able to walk away, which does not mean he was OK, just that he was able to walk, like the old guy in the car with him :twisted:

If he was not laid up, how would a driver allow himself to become unfit? Lack of motivation, or not following the trainers advice?

As I said, if it is a neck/spine problem, I stand corrected, but from all reports I read ( which are not medical reports, true) he just claims to not be physical enough?

This is of course tainted with the "Princess Pascal" tag he already has.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Regarding Wehrlein being fit or not I don't think there is anything that actually replicates being sat in a F1 car and driving it to it's limit?

Regarding Wehrlein and Giovanazzi, Giovanazzi won at a higher level in the junior series than Wehrlein, I don't really class winning the DTM title as a route to F1 especially if you have all your teammates driving for you.

So who is the bigger talent, it wouldn't surprise me if it's Giovanazzi?

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:37 pm 
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moby wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
moby wrote:
I have to admit not knowing much about Giovinazzi, but if I were the team boss, and able too, I think I would make the change permanent.

Pascal's reason for not racing sounds soft to me. A racer wants to race no matter what. It does not seem to be a case of being physically unable to race or having injury's that would hamper him or even slow him, just "Oh, I'm not up to it"


I will say that if I misunderstand the issue, I apologise, but still would take Giovinazzi. :]

Oh, and I also have to own up to not being pascals biggest fan, so that may affect my judgement


I think you're being a little unfair.

The BIB is pretty much the exact reason he gave and actually when you think about it, it's quite a team player decision. He could have started the race knowing he did not have the fitness to finish and tailed off dramatically or have had to retire. By stepping aside he actually gave his team a chance to score with that car.

Seeing how much fairy cakes he is getting for that decision kind of shows how brave it was to do that. It would have been much easier to try to race and then pull in after half distance siting exhaustion.

If he thought he probably couldn't finish then he did the best thing.


But he, and the doctors who passed him off, say he is not injured. If that was the case, he could not be expected to race.
He just claims to be not race fit.

He was able to walk away, which does not mean he was OK, just that he was able to walk, like the old guy in the car with him :twisted:

If he was not laid up, how would a driver allow himself to become unfit? Lack of motivation, or not following the trainers advice?

As I said, if it is a neck/spine problem, I stand corrected, but from all reports I read ( which are not medical reports, true) he just claims to not be physical enough?

This is of course tainted with the "Princess Pascal" tag he already has.


I think a moderate neck or back injury would be enough to bring a halt to almost all endurance training. I trapped my sciatic nerve in my back once and running, cycling, swimming etc were all out of the question. I agree questions should be asked of him but with the limited information we have I think it's unfair to jump to the worst possible conclusion.

And F1 drivers have to actually specifically train their necks a lot. If he has not been able to do that then I could see how he would be compromised.

I stand by what I said. If he didn't think he could finish the race then it was a brave team player decision to pull out and give the team the best chance of scoring points.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:49 pm 
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But he was replaced by someone who had NO experience other than one practice.
At worst case Wehrlein had 4 times as much as him, (inc Baca) and was/should have been aiming for this weekend.
Gio was "only" on stand by.

I understand "race fit" is not the same as trained up, but that makes it worse.




Edit.


Oops, should have gone as a reply sorry


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Regarding Wehrlein being fit or not I don't think there is anything that actually replicates being sat in a F1 car and driving it to it's limit?

Regarding Wehrlein and Giovanazzi, Giovanazzi won at a higher level in the junior series than Wehrlein, I don't really class winning the DTM title as a route to F1 especially if you have all your teammates driving for you.

So who is the bigger talent, it wouldn't surprise me if it's Giovanazzi?


Giovinazzi is a curious case though. He didn't really stand out in Euro F3, taking 3 years to accomplish a second place in the final standings whereas Wehrlein did that in his rookie season and beat some very good names. So the highest level they've both driven, Wehrlein takes it.

But then Giovinazzi went to GP2 and hit a home run, being a contender all year. Surprising stuff.

Could Wehrlein have done the same, driving in that Prema in GP2? Who knows?

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Giovanazzi is good, but what actually makes Wherlein so bad? He scored the point with Manor. Ocon and the other fellas didn't.


That still didn't impress Force India!

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:07 pm 
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moby wrote:
But he was replaced by someone who had NO experience other than one practice.
At worst case Wehrlein had 4 times as much as him, (inc Baca) and was/should have been aiming for this weekend.
Gio was "only" on stand by.

I understand "race fit" is not the same as trained up, but that makes it worse.




Edit.


Oops, should have gone as a reply sorry


But if he doesn't think he can finish the race then anyone else of decent ability is going to have more chance of a better result.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:57 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding Wehrlein being fit or not I don't think there is anything that actually replicates being sat in a F1 car and driving it to it's limit?

Regarding Wehrlein and Giovanazzi, Giovanazzi won at a higher level in the junior series than Wehrlein, I don't really class winning the DTM title as a route to F1 especially if you have all your teammates driving for you.

So who is the bigger talent, it wouldn't surprise me if it's Giovanazzi?


Giovinazzi is a curious case though. He didn't really stand out in Euro F3, taking 3 years to accomplish a second place in the final standings whereas Wehrlein did that in his rookie season and beat some very good names. So the highest level they've both driven, Wehrlein takes it.

But then Giovinazzi went to GP2 and hit a home run, being a contender all year. Surprising stuff.

Could Wehrlein have done the same, driving in that Prema in GP2? Who knows?

That's true but when Wehrlein drove in the series it was the first year so all the drivers were basically rookies, I keep stressing that it's not the level for drivers to be going into F1 you need to prove yourself at a higher level, some drivers can do well at that level then fizzle out at a higher level.

The early years of Ocon were not that good then he goes to F3 and wins as a rookie and wins GP3 the following season, likewise with Giovanazzi coming 2nd in his third season of F3 is not that impressive but then nearly winning the GP2 title the following season certainly was albeit perhaps in the best team but he did have Gasly to contend with as a teammate.

Wehrlein may well have achieved similar given the opportunity but the fact is that he didn't so remains unproven at a higher level.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding Wehrlein being fit or not I don't think there is anything that actually replicates being sat in a F1 car and driving it to it's limit?

Regarding Wehrlein and Giovanazzi, Giovanazzi won at a higher level in the junior series than Wehrlein, I don't really class winning the DTM title as a route to F1 especially if you have all your teammates driving for you.

So who is the bigger talent, it wouldn't surprise me if it's Giovanazzi?


Giovinazzi is a curious case though. He didn't really stand out in Euro F3, taking 3 years to accomplish a second place in the final standings whereas Wehrlein did that in his rookie season and beat some very good names. So the highest level they've both driven, Wehrlein takes it.

But then Giovinazzi went to GP2 and hit a home run, being a contender all year. Surprising stuff.

Could Wehrlein have done the same, driving in that Prema in GP2? Who knows?

That's true but when Wehrlein drove in the series it was the first year so all the drivers were basically rookies, I keep stressing that it's not the level for drivers to be going into F1 you need to prove yourself at a higher level, some drivers can do well at that level then fizzle out at a higher level.

The early years of Ocon were not that good then he goes to F3 and wins as a rookie and wins GP3 the following season, likewise with Giovanazzi coming 2nd in his third season of F3 is not that impressive but then nearly winning the GP2 title the following season certainly was albeit perhaps in the best team but he did have Gasly to contend with as a teammate.

Wehrlein may well have achieved similar given the opportunity but the fact is that he didn't so remains unproven at a higher level.


I wouldn't say DTM is a lower level than GP2. Just a different direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding Wehrlein being fit or not I don't think there is anything that actually replicates being sat in a F1 car and driving it to it's limit?

Regarding Wehrlein and Giovanazzi, Giovanazzi won at a higher level in the junior series than Wehrlein, I don't really class winning the DTM title as a route to F1 especially if you have all your teammates driving for you.

So who is the bigger talent, it wouldn't surprise me if it's Giovanazzi?


Giovinazzi is a curious case though. He didn't really stand out in Euro F3, taking 3 years to accomplish a second place in the final standings whereas Wehrlein did that in his rookie season and beat some very good names. So the highest level they've both driven, Wehrlein takes it.

But then Giovinazzi went to GP2 and hit a home run, being a contender all year. Surprising stuff.

Could Wehrlein have done the same, driving in that Prema in GP2? Who knows?

That's true but when Wehrlein drove in the series it was the first year so all the drivers were basically rookies, I keep stressing that it's not the level for drivers to be going into F1 you need to prove yourself at a higher level, some drivers can do well at that level then fizzle out at a higher level.

The early years of Ocon were not that good then he goes to F3 and wins as a rookie and wins GP3 the following season, likewise with Giovanazzi coming 2nd in his third season of F3 is not that impressive but then nearly winning the GP2 title the following season certainly was albeit perhaps in the best team but he did have Gasly to contend with as a teammate.

Wehrlein may well have achieved similar given the opportunity but the fact is that he didn't so remains unproven at a higher level.


I wouldn't say DTM is a lower level than GP2. Just a different direction.

I don't believe the cars give you any kind of training for F1 also it's all about team racing, Mercedes chose Wehrlein to go for the title very early in the season so a third of the field he didn't even need to race against.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:14 pm 
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To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:19 pm 
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I think there are two drivers that shoukd not be in the field, Palmer and Ericsson. I agree that Ericsson should be shown the door and stay with Giovanazzi, not only did he finished in a respectable spot but he was lapping faster than Ericsson. If he does well and Kimi retires, I will give Grosjean a one year deal at Ferrari and get Giovanazzi in a Haas seat


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson

I think his sponsors own the team?

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:26 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
I think there are two drivers that shoukd not be in the field, Palmer and Ericsson. I agree that Ericsson should be shown the door and stay with Giovanazzi, not only did he finished in a respectable spot but he was lapping faster than Ericsson. If he does well and Kimi retires, I will give Grosjean a one year deal at Ferrari and get Giovanazzi in a Haas seat

I would start to flag up KMag as well, he was little better than Palmer who you want rid of and he got blown off by Grosjean over the w/e, plus he's always seems to be hitting other cars in the races, in this respect he doesn't seem to learn.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Giovinazzi did a splendid job IMPO to the point I'm not so sure Wherlin could've done a better job. It's quite possible he "could have" done better but I'd love to see how Wherlin compares to Ericson to see the time differential between them.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I think there are two drivers that shoukd not be in the field, Palmer and Ericsson. I agree that Ericsson should be shown the door and stay with Giovanazzi, not only did he finished in a respectable spot but he was lapping faster than Ericsson. If he does well and Kimi retires, I will give Grosjean a one year deal at Ferrari and get Giovanazzi in a Haas seat

I would start to flag up KMag as well, he was little better than Palmer who you want rid of and he got blown off by Grosjean over the w/e, plus he's always seems to be hitting other cars in the races, in this respect he doesn't seem to learn.


You sort of read my mind there, I wanted to stick to two drivers who I think should be let go, I was debating real hard between KMag and Palmer. Let see how the next races go. I think KMag attitude is better and he did showed some speed in the past, but as you said, he has been sort of a let down lately.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:58 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
pokerman wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I think there are two drivers that shoukd not be in the field, Palmer and Ericsson. I agree that Ericsson should be shown the door and stay with Giovanazzi, not only did he finished in a respectable spot but he was lapping faster than Ericsson. If he does well and Kimi retires, I will give Grosjean a one year deal at Ferrari and get Giovanazzi in a Haas seat

I would start to flag up KMag as well, he was little better than Palmer who you want rid of and he got blown off by Grosjean over the w/e, plus he's always seems to be hitting other cars in the races, in this respect he doesn't seem to learn.


You sort of read my mind there, I wanted to stick to two drivers who I think should be let go, I was debating real hard between KMag and Palmer. Let see how the next races go. I think KMag attitude is better and he did showed some speed in the past, but as you said, he has been sort of a let down lately.


He had an awful weekend in Australia but I think he still has something to offer. A bad driver doesn't finish second on his debut and beat a WDC team mate to boot.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:03 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson


But Ericsson had been comfortably faster than Wherlein all weekend. I think Wherlein is vastly overrated. Frankly, I struggle to understand why. And to choose not to race was such a bad decision in my opinion. He could have tried and give it a go, and if he couldn't do the race distance he could have retired then.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:06 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
pokerman wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I think there are two drivers that shoukd not be in the field, Palmer and Ericsson. I agree that Ericsson should be shown the door and stay with Giovanazzi, not only did he finished in a respectable spot but he was lapping faster than Ericsson. If he does well and Kimi retires, I will give Grosjean a one year deal at Ferrari and get Giovanazzi in a Haas seat

I would start to flag up KMag as well, he was little better than Palmer who you want rid of and he got blown off by Grosjean over the w/e, plus he's always seems to be hitting other cars in the races, in this respect he doesn't seem to learn.


You sort of read my mind there, I wanted to stick to two drivers who I think should be let go, I was debating real hard between KMag and Palmer. Let see how the next races go. I think KMag attitude is better and he did showed some speed in the past, but as you said, he has been sort of a let down lately.


I would also include Stroll to that list, although I understand the sample is extremely small. However, it is a very very bad sample.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:09 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
pokerman wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I think there are two drivers that shoukd not be in the field, Palmer and Ericsson. I agree that Ericsson should be shown the door and stay with Giovanazzi, not only did he finished in a respectable spot but he was lapping faster than Ericsson. If he does well and Kimi retires, I will give Grosjean a one year deal at Ferrari and get Giovanazzi in a Haas seat

I would start to flag up KMag as well, he was little better than Palmer who you want rid of and he got blown off by Grosjean over the w/e, plus he's always seems to be hitting other cars in the races, in this respect he doesn't seem to learn.


You sort of read my mind there, I wanted to stick to two drivers who I think should be let go, I was debating real hard between KMag and Palmer. Let see how the next races go. I think KMag attitude is better and he did showed some speed in the past, but as you said, he has been sort of a let down lately.


I would also include Stroll to that list, although I understand the sample is extremely small. However, it is a very very bad sample.


:lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:24 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson


But Ericsson had been comfortably faster than Wherlein all weekend. I think Wherlein is vastly overrated. Frankly, I struggle to understand why. And to choose not to race was such a bad decision in my opinion. He could have tried and give it a go, and if he couldn't do the race distance he could have retired then.


And I am sure the team would have been thrilled with him.

I don't understand how anyone could not rate Wehrlein based on his on track performances last season. He couldn't really have done more.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson


But Ericsson had been comfortably faster than Wherlein all weekend. I think Wherlein is vastly overrated. Frankly, I struggle to understand why. And to choose not to race was such a bad decision in my opinion. He could have tried and give it a go, and if he couldn't do the race distance he could have retired then.


And I am sure the team would have been thrilled with him.

I don't understand how anyone could not rate Wehrlein based on his on track performances last season. He couldn't really have done more.


It is better to complete a fraction of a race distance than none. His team would have been thrilled for his effort.

What exactly did Wherlein do last year that was so impressive? When newcomer Ocon started beating him at the end of the season?


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:45 pm 
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IMO, Ericsson has had more impressive races than Wherlein has. I know Ericsson was nothing special in 2014 and early 2015, but since then, he was level or beating Nasr.
Many people remember Austria 2016 because Wherlein got a point. I really think it won't be very well remembered if Vettel didn't retire. Vettel and 1 or 2 other drivers helped him get that 1 point. He also made a rookie error at the start that seemed surprising that he got away with it. He parked in the wrong grid slot just before the start of the race. Then started reversing on the grid. They waited for him to do this without cancelling the start which amazed me at the time. Yet when a driver parks ever so slightly out of their own box, then often leads to a penalty. Anyway, he did overall have a good race weekend but I'd say it was his qualifying that stood out far more than the race.

In 2016, Ericsson had an outstanding race in Mexico. The issue is, so few people remember it because he didn't get a points finish. Wherlein crashed into him at the start and then had to retire. Ericsson then had to do a slow lap dead last, then he pitted. Then he did 69 laps on the same set of tyres and finished 11th in what was pretty much the slowest car and there were no other retirements that helped him there. And he did this in a car that was slightly damaged too. I think it was one of the best races by any driver last season. He also had one or 2 other races that looked impressive.

One big issue with Wherlein apparently is that he is hard to work with. Or at leased I've seen some other people mention this. He very often refuses team orders. Nasr was a bit like this too actually.
There was one time where Pascal spun off and refused to turn is engine off even after his team told him to more than enough times. I know this isn't to do with his driving skills but if he continues to have these moments, the team may not get on with him very well.

Overall I do think Ericsson is a bit better than Wherlein and I think he will do better this season. I don't know enough about Giovinazzi to compare him to Wherlein but he did look impressive this weekend. I just don't think it is fair that so many people are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Ericsson beat him in qualifying and they couldn't really be compared to each other in the race as Ericsson got knocked off my Magnussen and then later retired.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:52 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
IMO, Ericsson has had more impressive races than Wherlein has. I know Ericsson was nothing special in 2014 and early 2015, but since then, he was level or beating Nasr.
Many people remember Austria 2016 because Wherlein got a point. I really think it won't be very well remembered if Vettel didn't retire. Vettel and 1 or 2 other drivers helped him get that 1 point. He also made a rookie error at the start that seemed surprising that he got away with it. He parked in the wrong grid slot just before the start of the race. Then started reversing on the grid. They waited for him to do this without cancelling the start which amazed me at the time. Yet when a driver parks ever so slightly out of their own box, then often leads to a penalty. Anyway, he did overall have a good race weekend but I'd say it was his qualifying that stood out far more than the race.

In 2016, Ericsson had an outstanding race in Mexico. The issue is, so few people remember it because he didn't get a points finish. Wherlein crashed into him at the start and then had to retire. Ericsson then had to do a slow lap dead last, then he pitted. Then he did 69 laps on the same set of tyres and finished 11th in what was pretty much the slowest car and there were no other retirements that helped him there. And he did this in a car that was slightly damaged too. I think it was one of the best races by any driver last season. He also had one or 2 other races that looked impressive.

One big issue with Wherlein apparently is that he is hard to work with. Or at leased I've seen some other people mention this. He very often refuses team orders. Nasr was a bit like this too actually.
There was one time where Pascal spun off and refused to turn is engine off even after his team told him to more than enough times. I know this isn't to do with his driving skills but if he continues to have these moments, the team may not get on with him very well.

Overall I do think Ericsson is a bit better than Wherlein and I think he will do better this season. I don't know enough about Giovinazzi to compare him to Wherlein but he did look impressive this weekend. I just don't think it is fair that so many people are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Ericsson beat him in qualifying and they couldn't really be compared to each other in the race as Ericsson got knocked off my Magnussen and then later retired.


Agreed. Wherlein is overrated and Ericsson is somewhat underrated.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:09 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson


But Ericsson had been comfortably faster than Wherlein all weekend. I think Wherlein is vastly overrated. Frankly, I struggle to understand why. And to choose not to race was such a bad decision in my opinion. He could have tried and give it a go, and if he couldn't do the race distance he could have retired then.


And I am sure the team would have been thrilled with him.

I don't understand how anyone could not rate Wehrlein based on his on track performances last season. He couldn't really have done more.


It is better to complete a fraction of a race distance than none. His team would have been thrilled for his effort.

What exactly did Wherlein do last year that was so impressive? When newcomer Ocon started beating him at the end of the season?


Better for Wehrlein but how on earth is that better for his? By stepping aside he gives the team chance to actually score some points with his car. I'm surely they'd rather have that than someone who pulls in half way with exhaustion. That doesn't do them any good at all. It was a pretty mature self less decision.

Wehrlein was regularly out qualifying and out racing Sauber's and Renault's all season. Ocon is a very promising driver and managed to out qualify him twice in the 9 races they had together.

Basically Wehrlein had two team mates last year and very comfortably beat them both. I'm not sure what more people expect from a rookie who had been out of single seaters for a while?

What should he have done that he didn't do?


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:38 pm 
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The way it was reported by Ted Kravitz on Sky was that this was one of Saubers best chances to get points, due to there generally being high attrition at the opening race of the season, plus the rest of the field will just get further and further ahead as the 2017-spec engines develop.

If Wehrlein knew he had no chance of finishing the race then he did the rght thing to give the seat to someone else.


As for comparing junior careers, it's generally very difficult as there are so many contributing factors you just don't know about. F3 in particular, as it's not really a spec series. I think that performances (on and off the track) in lower formulae mean a lot more than actual results - and you have to be really involved to be able to decipher it all tell who's 'got it' and who hasn't. Comparing results across different seasons will prove nothing.

Some of Giovinazzi's performances last year were amazing, whereas i have seen nothing of Wehrlien's pre-F1 career (I don't like DTM as a series for some reason, i really can't put my finger on it, although i love JGTC which is bascally the same regs) so cannot comment on any stand-out performances.

I'd say overall Pascal did more than enough last year to warrant a second season in F1, however Giovinazzi is a very, very capable replacement if needed. So firmly on the fence :p

Also - last year the Prema car was miles ahead of the rest of the GP2 field (something weird there, but that's for another thread :D) and whoever was in it was going to be right at the sharp end. Gasy isn't that good (nowhere near Vandoorne's level, for example) - the year before he was neck-and-neck with Lynn all season when in equal machinery. I'd say that Giovinazzi did a much better job than Gasly last year.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson


But Ericsson had been comfortably faster than Wherlein all weekend. I think Wherlein is vastly overrated. Frankly, I struggle to understand why. And to choose not to race was such a bad decision in my opinion. He could have tried and give it a go, and if he couldn't do the race distance he could have retired then.


And I am sure the team would have been thrilled with him.

I don't understand how anyone could not rate Wehrlein based on his on track performances last season. He couldn't really have done more.


It is better to complete a fraction of a race distance than none. His team would have been thrilled for his effort.

What exactly did Wherlein do last year that was so impressive? When newcomer Ocon started beating him at the end of the season?


Better for Wehrlein but how on earth is that better for his? By stepping aside he gives the team chance to actually score some points with his car. I'm surely they'd rather have that than someone who pulls in half way with exhaustion. That doesn't do them any good at all. It was a pretty mature self less decision.

Wehrlein was regularly out qualifying and out racing Sauber's and Renault's all season. Ocon is a very promising driver and managed to out qualify him twice in the 9 races they had together.

Basically Wehrlein had two team mates last year and very comfortably beat them both. I'm not sure what more people expect from a rookie who had been out of single seaters for a while?

What should he have done that he didn't do?


I think I've already been through this last year with you. The difference is that you think he outperformed his teammates handily last year when I think he didn't outclass them the way he should have for such a highly rated talent. But good point about the team needing the points. I didn't envision that, I must admit.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:48 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
To me, they should keep them both and ditch Ericsson


But Ericsson had been comfortably faster than Wherlein all weekend. I think Wherlein is vastly overrated. Frankly, I struggle to understand why. And to choose not to race was such a bad decision in my opinion. He could have tried and give it a go, and if he couldn't do the race distance he could have retired then.

Wehrlein has not been able to drive at full speed though, hence that's why he pulled out.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:55 am 
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Pascal has done more than enough in last season to warrant a seat this year. I think Ericsson was the one has not done much in that Sauber in past seasons. Let's see how things pan out in coming races.


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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:10 pm 
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When criticising Pascal for not racing in Aus, people need to remember that Sauber were put in an almost identical situation mid-2011: Perez crashed in qualifying in Monaco and subsequently couldn't race. 2 weeks later, he drove in free practice (can't remember how many sessions, but it was at least 1, if not FP1 and FP2), then decided that he wasn't fit to complete the weekend. The team applauded his professionalism, and drafted in De La Rosa from Ferrari at the last minute, only because he had driven for them the previous season and they didn't need to do a seat fitting for him. At the time, no-one doubted that Perez was still feeling the effects of his Monaco crash, and Perez himself said a few years back that he was not fully race-sharp for another 2 races after that.

Now combine this info with the knowledge that the new generation of F1 cars are more physical and tougher to handle, and I think it simply looks very likely that Pascal knew he wasn't ready to race, and he'd do more damage in the long-term, not just to himself, but to the team. I don't think there are many drivers in the sport at the moment who can afford to take a race off and not be concerned about their reputation deteriorating because either their team-mate or their replacement shone in that missed race. Considering Pascal got overlooked for the Merc drive, it's clear he has a lot to prove. I don't think there's a chance he bailed on Aus because "he couldn't be bothered".

As for whether Giovinazzi should replace Pascal full-time, need I remind everyone how Palmer and Magnussen both faired on their debuts? 1 good race does not make a driver great. I'm sure he'll get his chance in F1 at some stage with a permanent race drive, and I do think he's a promising talent and deserving of such a drive, but to suggest that he's already better than Wehrlein is nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:52 pm 
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I think Wehrlein proved his worth last year. Giovinazzi had a bright start but I couldn't go declaring he's a better prospect than Pascal. There's nothing to fairly compare them against

Wehrlein gets a bad rap because of his attitude and that's fair enough. But he doesn't deserve criticism over his performances

And having a go at him for pulling out due to injury is nuts. If it's not worth the risk, it's not worth the risk

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:34 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Giovanazzi is good, but what actually makes Wherlein so bad? He scored the point with Manor. Ocon and the other fellas didn't.



Maldonado scored Williams a race win. A lot of people didn't think he was a fantastic driver despite that.

I think it's a lot to do with reputation in the F1 circus. Results aren't actually everything I guess. :?

I'd like to think Wehrlein deserves another chance. I think if it did go down as 'I'm not prepared- you'd be better off with another guy' that seems like a mature and selfless decision and could even go some way to combat his prima donna image. But on the other hand, it could backfire massively because Giovinazzi pulled a blinder at Australia.

Ultimately, if I was in Monisha's boots and had to pick one of the two- Giovinazzi could score me a great deal on a shampoo sponsorship contract. :-P

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 Post subject: Re: Giovinazzi v Pascal
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:08 am 
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Pascal comes with a very strong reputation for being a fast driver, but equally being a bit of a bellend in his attitude.

His call to not drive a full race comes across as an attempt to be a team player and improve his standing.

Can't fault him for that.


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