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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:15 am 
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http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport ... 749e3390a9

I'll raise my hand and admit that I was one of the many fans who assumed that Adrian Newey and co. would absolutely nail the new regulations perfectly but that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? Daniel has made it pretty clear that, at the moment, Red Bull are behind Mercedes and Ferrari primarily because of a lack of downforce. That's right, it's the aerodynamics and NOT the PU that is keeping Red Bull behind right now. Didn't see that coming.

Max is so young that he can just be patient and the team absolutely embrace him and want him to grow with them. Daniel is in a different boat though. I honestly think he has to be thinking of a move to Ferrari or Mercedes for 2018. He's going to turn 28 this year and he needs to think about right now. It's not about the future anymore. Before you know it, there will be younger drivers moving ahead of him in the queue. He needs to put himself in position to at least challenge for a title and I think linking up with either of the top two teams in 2018 is his best bet. At his age, you don't want to be talking about potential anymore; you want to be winning. With Vettel, Bottas and Raikkonen all in the final year of their contracts, 2018 will be his best chance. Ferrari and Mercedes also pay a lot more than Red Bull...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:48 am 
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Why are they behind? I wonder if it has anything to do with Newey's involvement in the AM-RB 001?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:54 am 
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LBET wrote:
Why are they behind? I wonder if it has anything to do with Newey's involvement in the AM-RB 001?

I imagine it's a case of they haven't figured out how to best optimise the aero balance, they had a similar issue last season too but once they got it sorted they were quite strong.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:49 am 
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I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:20 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.

And I don't know why people act like I have a beard. Look at me in the early 00s.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:50 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.


Exactly that.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:52 am 
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28 is still plenty young - suppose he wins the title this year (not that I think he will, to be fair) he would be - just - inside the top 10 youngest WDC winners. He has time and he's with a front-running team, a team that can create a great car, but not necessarily always does.

I think after 2 races into this new regulation period, it's very early days to say he must jump now because RBR aren't going to get there.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:33 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/red-bull-videos-reveal-exactly-whats-wrong-with-rb13/news-story/7315afe003c0a990d8bebd749e3390a9

I'll raise my hand and admit that I was one of the many fans who assumed that Adrian Newey and co. would absolutely nail the new regulations perfectly but that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? Daniel has made it pretty clear that, at the moment, Red Bull are behind Mercedes and Ferrari primarily because of a lack of downforce. That's right, it's the aerodynamics and NOT the PU that is keeping Red Bull behind right now. Didn't see that coming.

Max is so young that he can just be patient and the team absolutely embrace him and want him to grow with them. Daniel is in a different boat though. I honestly think he has to be thinking of a move to Ferrari or Mercedes for 2018. He's going to turn 28 this year and he needs to think about right now. It's not about the future anymore. Before you know it, there will be younger drivers moving ahead of him in the queue. He needs to put himself in position to at least challenge for a title and I think linking up with either of the top two teams in 2018 is his best bet. At his age, you don't want to be talking about potential anymore; you want to be winning. With Vettel, Bottas and Raikkonen all in the final year of their contracts, 2018 will be his best chance. Ferrari and Mercedes also pay a lot more than Red Bull...


I get the feeling if we see any decent dry weather this weekend you will see the Renault PU is still behind ferrari and mercedes and they haven't closed the gap at all. The PU is obviously not the only problem for rbr at the moment but until renault catch up (if they ever do in this formula) rbr won't be challenging for a title regardless if they nail the chassis/aero.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:21 pm 
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mds wrote:
28 is still plenty young - suppose he wins the title this year (not that I think he will, to be fair) he would be - just - inside the top 10 youngest WDC winners. He has time and he's with a front-running team, a team that can create a great car, but not necessarily always does.

I think after 2 races into this new regulation period, it's very early days to say he must jump now because RBR aren't going to get there.

It's not that he's old it's that an opportunity to join one of those two teams is likely to present itself after this season and he is perhaps the most attractive driver on the market for both teams. That won't be the case forever and he needs to strike while the iron is hot.

Mercedes may look to him as the ideal upgrade over Bottas depending on how things play out this year (although if Bottas performs well and Mercedes take both titles I don't think they'll rock the boat). Ferrari have an even stronger likelihood of pursuing him as Kimi may be done after this year and Ricciardo may even be considered an upgrade to Vettel based purely on their one season as teammates.

At 27 (turning 28 later this year) Dan is still considered a young prospect for the future but that status will change if he stays where he is. By the time 2-3 years pass, Max and perhaps others will almost certainly take his spot as the most attractive young prospect for Ferrari and Mercedes. I think there is a very real possibility that, as a customer team, Red Bull will not be able to overhaul those two during this hybrid V6 era. If you're Max, that's not the end of the world and you can calmly see how things play out over the next few years. If you're Dan, you have to try to position yourself to win now. At least that's my take on it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
28 is still plenty young - suppose he wins the title this year (not that I think he will, to be fair) he would be - just - inside the top 10 youngest WDC winners. He has time and he's with a front-running team, a team that can create a great car, but not necessarily always does.

I think after 2 races into this new regulation period, it's very early days to say he must jump now because RBR aren't going to get there.

It's not that he's old it's that an opportunity to join one of those two teams is likely to present itself after this season and he is perhaps the most attractive driver on the market for both teams. That won't be the case forever and he needs to strike while the iron is hot.

Mercedes may look to him as the ideal upgrade over Bottas depending on how things play out this year (although if Bottas performs well and Mercedes take both titles I don't think they'll rock the boat). Ferrari have an even stronger likelihood of pursuing him as Kimi may be done after this year and Ricciardo may even be considered an upgrade to Vettel based purely on their one season as teammates.

At 27 (turning 28 later this year) Dan is still considered a young prospect for the future but that status will change if he stays where he is. By the time 2-3 years pass, Max and perhaps others will almost certainly take his spot as the most attractive young prospect for Ferrari and Mercedes. I think there is a very real possibility that, as a customer team, Red Bull will not be able to overhaul those two during this hybrid V6 era. If you're Max, that's not the end of the world and you can calmly see how things play out over the next few years. If you're Dan, you have to try to position yourself to win now. At least that's my take on it.


Even if he did think Mercedes and Ferrari were better options he's got to get himself out of his contract first, he's not actually on the market at years end. Not sure why Red Bull do Merc or Ferrari a favour and make their line-ups stronger on top of having a car advantage to be honest.

Sainz is good but he doesn't look an upgrade on Dan so I'm not sure what's in it for RB unless the relationship between Max and Dan sours and turns poisonous which looks unlikely considering it doesn't look like they'll be fighting for the title.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:13 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
28 is still plenty young - suppose he wins the title this year (not that I think he will, to be fair) he would be - just - inside the top 10 youngest WDC winners. He has time and he's with a front-running team, a team that can create a great car, but not necessarily always does.

I think after 2 races into this new regulation period, it's very early days to say he must jump now because RBR aren't going to get there.

It's not that he's old it's that an opportunity to join one of those two teams is likely to present itself after this season and he is perhaps the most attractive driver on the market for both teams. That won't be the case forever and he needs to strike while the iron is hot.

Mercedes may look to him as the ideal upgrade over Bottas depending on how things play out this year (although if Bottas performs well and Mercedes take both titles I don't think they'll rock the boat). Ferrari have an even stronger likelihood of pursuing him as Kimi may be done after this year and Ricciardo may even be considered an upgrade to Vettel based purely on their one season as teammates.

At 27 (turning 28 later this year) Dan is still considered a young prospect for the future but that status will change if he stays where he is. By the time 2-3 years pass, Max and perhaps others will almost certainly take his spot as the most attractive young prospect for Ferrari and Mercedes. I think there is a very real possibility that, as a customer team, Red Bull will not be able to overhaul those two during this hybrid V6 era. If you're Max, that's not the end of the world and you can calmly see how things play out over the next few years. If you're Dan, you have to try to position yourself to win now. At least that's my take on it.


Even if he did think Mercedes and Ferrari were better options he's got to get himself out of his contract first, he's not actually on the market at years end. Not sure why Red Bull do Merc or Ferrari a favour and make their line-ups stronger on top of having a car advantage to be honest.

Sainz is good but he doesn't look an upgrade on Dan so I'm not sure what's in it for RB unless the relationship between Max and Dan sours and turns poisonous which looks unlikely considering it doesn't look like they'll be fighting for the title.

You make an interesting point but I tend to view F1 contracts as relatively flimsy. Generally the drivers can get out of them if they want to. We have seen that recently with Bottas's contract. Ultimately, Red Bull will know that it's unlikely that they can keep both Dan and Max in the long run and all indications are that they are not willing to let Max go under any circumstances. Perhaps they can use Dan as a bargaining chip to get that engine deal that they have been coveting...Not sure if Merc or Ferrari would go for that though lol.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.

Precisely this!

IDK how the legend that Newey is some aero rainman, but teams he's been on have been lackluster plenty of seasons.
He's certainly a top engineer but every team has engineers as equally talented. The reality is that TEAMS of engineers have to work in unison, first lulling over all their ideas & suggestions collectively, and then they must work through the process of elimination to weed out elements they feel are the least efficient and possibly don't work well for the entire system.

This is true for every single team. Yes their is a leader on the team, but they don't make decisions all on their own.

People seem to forget that Newey joined Red Bull way back in 2006 and "His" designs couldn't do much of anything until a kid named Sebastian Vettel drove brilliantly over the course of a wet weekend, AND driving for the Junior team no less. Then when the new regs came in, initially they were pretty good but not excellent. And need anyone be reminded that Brawn was clearly the top car and Red Bull was only able to bridge the gap due to Brawn's extremely limited finances that stifled their development throughout the season. While Brawn was struggling to develop even the smallest improvements, Red Bull was throwing truckloads of cash at their team so they could work in record pace with zero worries about running out of money.

To boot, if Newey is such the superior engineer, why didn't he figure out he could develop a DD for the 2009 Red Bull car?
He didn't. But Engineers at Brawn, Williams and even Toyota did.

Starting to get the picture yet people?

All engineers in F1 are extremely talented and supremely capable people, but it takes quite a bit of luck to squeeze all the concepts and ideas into one uniform design and come out on top because every team has an army of equally talented people working towards the exact same goal around the exact same regulations.

That Red Bull is struggling a bit in aero should be of no surprise to anyone because every designer and team will create cars that are simply off the mark. However, the difference and deficiencies of a car can be somewhat overcome by having superb drivers which they've got. And the Engine seems much improved from last year too, but I wouldn't quite say they are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes and that would account for a lot of speed on it's own, so I wouldn't be so quick to believe that the chassis is indeed their main issue. Max looked awfully quick in the first race so with a little bit of development in the right area, they could be challenging for podiums, possibly even for wins.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:29 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
28 is still plenty young - suppose he wins the title this year (not that I think he will, to be fair) he would be - just - inside the top 10 youngest WDC winners. He has time and he's with a front-running team, a team that can create a great car, but not necessarily always does.

I think after 2 races into this new regulation period, it's very early days to say he must jump now because RBR aren't going to get there.

It's not that he's old it's that an opportunity to join one of those two teams is likely to present itself after this season and he is perhaps the most attractive driver on the market for both teams. That won't be the case forever and he needs to strike while the iron is hot.

Mercedes may look to him as the ideal upgrade over Bottas depending on how things play out this year (although if Bottas performs well and Mercedes take both titles I don't think they'll rock the boat). Ferrari have an even stronger likelihood of pursuing him as Kimi may be done after this year and Ricciardo may even be considered an upgrade to Vettel based purely on their one season as teammates.

At 27 (turning 28 later this year) Dan is still considered a young prospect for the future but that status will change if he stays where he is. By the time 2-3 years pass, Max and perhaps others will almost certainly take his spot as the most attractive young prospect for Ferrari and Mercedes. I think there is a very real possibility that, as a customer team, Red Bull will not be able to overhaul those two during this hybrid V6 era. If you're Max, that's not the end of the world and you can calmly see how things play out over the next few years. If you're Dan, you have to try to position yourself to win now. At least that's my take on it.


Even if he did think Mercedes and Ferrari were better options he's got to get himself out of his contract first, he's not actually on the market at years end. Not sure why Red Bull do Merc or Ferrari a favour and make their line-ups stronger on top of having a car advantage to be honest.

Sainz is good but he doesn't look an upgrade on Dan so I'm not sure what's in it for RB unless the relationship between Max and Dan sours and turns poisonous which looks unlikely considering it doesn't look like they'll be fighting for the title.

You make an interesting point but I tend to view F1 contracts as relatively flimsy. Generally the drivers can get out of them if they want to. We have seen that recently with Bottas's contract. Ultimately, Red Bull will know that it's unlikely that they can keep both Dan and Max in the long run and all indications are that they are not willing to let Max go under any circumstances. Perhaps they can use Dan as a bargaining chip to get that engine deal that they have been coveting...Not sure if Merc or Ferrari would go for that though lol.


Yeah agree about F1 contracts on the whole but there usually needs to be something in it for both, like the Bottas deal and the possible PU deal that you mention as an example. I think that offer would at least get some consideration if it was on the table.

Shy of that I can't see them playing ball.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:16 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.

Precisely this!

IDK how the legend that Newey is some aero rainman, but teams he's been on have been lackluster plenty of seasons.
He's certainly a top engineer but every team has engineers as equally talented. The reality is that TEAMS of engineers have to work in unison, first lulling over all their ideas & suggestions collectively, and then they must work through the process of elimination to weed out elements they feel are the least efficient and possibly don't work well for the entire system.

This is true for every single team. Yes their is a leader on the team, but they don't make decisions all on their own.

People seem to forget that Newey joined Red Bull way back in 2006 and "His" designs couldn't do much of anything until a kid named Sebastian Vettel drove brilliantly over the course of a wet weekend, AND driving for the Junior team no less. Then when the new regs came in, initially they were pretty good but not excellent. And need anyone be reminded that Brawn was clearly the top car and Red Bull was only able to bridge the gap due to Brawn's extremely limited finances that stifled their development throughout the season. While Brawn was struggling to develop even the smallest improvements, Red Bull was throwing truckloads of cash at their team so they could work in record pace with zero worries about running out of money.

To boot, if Newey is such the superior engineer, why didn't he figure out he could develop a DD for the 2009 Red Bull car?
He didn't. But Engineers at Brawn, Williams and even Toyota did.

Starting to get the picture yet people?

All engineers in F1 are extremely talented and supremely capable people, but it takes quite a bit of luck to squeeze all the concepts and ideas into one uniform design and come out on top because every team has an army of equally talented people working towards the exact same goal around the exact same regulations.

That Red Bull is struggling a bit in aero should be of no surprise to anyone because every designer and team will create cars that are simply off the mark. However, the difference and deficiencies of a car can be somewhat overcome by having superb drivers which they've got. And the Engine seems much improved from last year too, but I wouldn't quite say they are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes and that would account for a lot of speed on it's own, so I wouldn't be so quick to believe that the chassis is indeed their main issue. Max looked awfully quick in the first race so with a little bit of development in the right area, they could be challenging for podiums, possibly even for wins.

I think you are omitting some very important facts here. For example, Newey was a king-maker in the 90s. His Williams cars dominated the period from 1991-1997 and then, after moving to McLaren, they became dominant for a couple of years. When he first went to Red Bull, they were in an evolutionary phase of existing regulations and fundamentally at a huge disadvantage to both McLaren and Ferrari. The 2009 regulations changes were really Red Bull's opportunity to catch up and Newey delivered the strongest overall package. He might have missed the DD initially but once they incorporated it, they were the team to beat for years to come.

Let's not disparage the guy. Certainly he hasn't always been the best but, as a chief aerodynamicist, he has been unparalleled in the history of the sport.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.


Newey cost Raikkonen a title in 2005 by designing a very lean car which blew up engines every other race. I remember hearing he likes his cars lean, which affects engine cooling.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:53 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.

Precisely this!

IDK how the legend that Newey is some aero rainman, but teams he's been on have been lackluster plenty of seasons.
He's certainly a top engineer but every team has engineers as equally talented. The reality is that TEAMS of engineers have to work in unison, first lulling over all their ideas & suggestions collectively, and then they must work through the process of elimination to weed out elements they feel are the least efficient and possibly don't work well for the entire system.

This is true for every single team. Yes their is a leader on the team, but they don't make decisions all on their own.

People seem to forget that Newey joined Red Bull way back in 2006 and "His" designs couldn't do much of anything until a kid named Sebastian Vettel drove brilliantly over the course of a wet weekend, AND driving for the Junior team no less. Then when the new regs came in, initially they were pretty good but not excellent. And need anyone be reminded that Brawn was clearly the top car and Red Bull was only able to bridge the gap due to Brawn's extremely limited finances that stifled their development throughout the season. While Brawn was struggling to develop even the smallest improvements, Red Bull was throwing truckloads of cash at their team so they could work in record pace with zero worries about running out of money.

To boot, if Newey is such the superior engineer, why didn't he figure out he could develop a DD for the 2009 Red Bull car?
He didn't. But Engineers at Brawn, Williams and even Toyota did.

Starting to get the picture yet people?

All engineers in F1 are extremely talented and supremely capable people, but it takes quite a bit of luck to squeeze all the concepts and ideas into one uniform design and come out on top because every team has an army of equally talented people working towards the exact same goal around the exact same regulations.

That Red Bull is struggling a bit in aero should be of no surprise to anyone because every designer and team will create cars that are simply off the mark. However, the difference and deficiencies of a car can be somewhat overcome by having superb drivers which they've got. And the Engine seems much improved from last year too, but I wouldn't quite say they are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes and that would account for a lot of speed on it's own, so I wouldn't be so quick to believe that the chassis is indeed their main issue. Max looked awfully quick in the first race so with a little bit of development in the right area, they could be challenging for podiums, possibly even for wins.

I think you are omitting some very important facts here. For example, Newey was a king-maker in the 90s. His Williams cars dominated the period from 1991-1997 and then, after moving to McLaren, they became dominant for a couple of years. When he first went to Red Bull, they were in an evolutionary phase of existing regulations and fundamentally at a huge disadvantage to both McLaren and Ferrari. The 2009 regulations changes were really Red Bull's opportunity to catch up and Newey delivered the strongest overall package. He might have missed the DD initially but once they incorporated it, they were the team to beat for years to come.

Let's not disparage the guy. Certainly he hasn't always been the best but, as a chief aerodynamicist, he has been unparalleled in the history of the sport.

Actually I'm not.

Even in the 90's when he joined Williams they had a significant army of engineers and if you remember, what made those Williams so utterly dominant initially was the active suspension system of which Newey played zero part in developing. Their aero was already quite excellent by the time he arrived there and that success merely carried on, and one could argue improved a bit upon Newey's arrival.

And the modern aero technology was born at Benetton and Newey and everyone else played catch up for a couple of years which also shows that he's not the god many will have you believe. And McLaren was extremely successful for many years before Newey's arrival.

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ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:32 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.

Precisely this!

IDK how the legend that Newey is some aero rainman, but teams he's been on have been lackluster plenty of seasons.
He's certainly a top engineer but every team has engineers as equally talented. The reality is that TEAMS of engineers have to work in unison, first lulling over all their ideas & suggestions collectively, and then they must work through the process of elimination to weed out elements they feel are the least efficient and possibly don't work well for the entire system.

This is true for every single team. Yes their is a leader on the team, but they don't make decisions all on their own.

People seem to forget that Newey joined Red Bull way back in 2006 and "His" designs couldn't do much of anything until a kid named Sebastian Vettel drove brilliantly over the course of a wet weekend, AND driving for the Junior team no less. Then when the new regs came in, initially they were pretty good but not excellent. And need anyone be reminded that Brawn was clearly the top car and Red Bull was only able to bridge the gap due to Brawn's extremely limited finances that stifled their development throughout the season. While Brawn was struggling to develop even the smallest improvements, Red Bull was throwing truckloads of cash at their team so they could work in record pace with zero worries about running out of money.

To boot, if Newey is such the superior engineer, why didn't he figure out he could develop a DD for the 2009 Red Bull car?
He didn't. But Engineers at Brawn, Williams and even Toyota did.

Starting to get the picture yet people?

All engineers in F1 are extremely talented and supremely capable people, but it takes quite a bit of luck to squeeze all the concepts and ideas into one uniform design and come out on top because every team has an army of equally talented people working towards the exact same goal around the exact same regulations.

That Red Bull is struggling a bit in aero should be of no surprise to anyone because every designer and team will create cars that are simply off the mark. However, the difference and deficiencies of a car can be somewhat overcome by having superb drivers which they've got. And the Engine seems much improved from last year too, but I wouldn't quite say they are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes and that would account for a lot of speed on it's own, so I wouldn't be so quick to believe that the chassis is indeed their main issue. Max looked awfully quick in the first race so with a little bit of development in the right area, they could be challenging for podiums, possibly even for wins.

I think you are omitting some very important facts here. For example, Newey was a king-maker in the 90s. His Williams cars dominated the period from 1991-1997 and then, after moving to McLaren, they became dominant for a couple of years. When he first went to Red Bull, they were in an evolutionary phase of existing regulations and fundamentally at a huge disadvantage to both McLaren and Ferrari. The 2009 regulations changes were really Red Bull's opportunity to catch up and Newey delivered the strongest overall package. He might have missed the DD initially but once they incorporated it, they were the team to beat for years to come.

Let's not disparage the guy. Certainly he hasn't always been the best but, as a chief aerodynamicist, he has been unparalleled in the history of the sport.

Actually I'm not.

Even in the 90's when he joined Williams they had a significant army of engineers and if you remember, what made those Williams so utterly dominant initially was the active suspension system of which Newey played zero part in developing. Their aero was already quite excellent by the time he arrived there and that success merely carried on, and one could argue improved a bit upon Newey's arrival.

And the modern aero technology was born at Benetton and Newey and everyone else played catch up for a couple of years which also shows that he's not the god many will have you believe. And McLaren was extremely successful for many years before Newey's arrival.

Wow. So you really give Newey no credit for those Williams cars? Active suspension was banned in 1994 and Williams still produced the best car in 1995-97. When he went to McLaren, they had just come off of their worst seasons in ages. McLaren from 1994-96 was not a successful team and Newey was perhaps the key personnel acquisition that righted the ship and gave them back to back championships.

The Red Bull project was also obviously a resounding success and I can't see why you would write off his contributions. Not sure what your gripe is with him but he's obviously had a brilliant career.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:00 am 
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The active suspension predated Newey's time with the team, but Newey designed the cars around the active suspension anyway, so it doesn't make much difference.

McLaren was competitive in 1997 but the following year was a big change in the regulations, so Newey did help them a lot.

I remember reading a really old post (from before PF1 moved to the current forum) which stated Villeneuve's life in 1997 would've been much easier if Newey hadn't had a contract with McLaren for 1998, because there was less incentive to develop the Williams car all the way to the end of the season, which allowed Ferrari to catch up to Williams by the season's end. It makes sense when you realize Villeneuve outpaced Schumacher at Melbourne qualifying by two(!) seconds, yet their cars were closer together by the end, with possibly Schumacher's skills closing the gap.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:15 am 
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I have to laugh at people trying to minimize the Newey influence. Recently he has had years where the car was not the best aero package at the start of the season, but each of those years it ended up being the best. See 2012, 2013, and arguably 2016. The guy is an outright legend. I would be very surprised if this year's car doesn't end up at the very front by the end of this season.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:56 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't know why people act like having Newey on board guarantees you the best aero. Look at Mclaren in the early 00s.

Precisely this!

IDK how the legend that Newey is some aero rainman, but teams he's been on have been lackluster plenty of seasons.
He's certainly a top engineer but every team has engineers as equally talented. The reality is that TEAMS of engineers have to work in unison, first lulling over all their ideas & suggestions collectively, and then they must work through the process of elimination to weed out elements they feel are the least efficient and possibly don't work well for the entire system.

This is true for every single team. Yes their is a leader on the team, but they don't make decisions all on their own.

People seem to forget that Newey joined Red Bull way back in 2006 and "His" designs couldn't do much of anything until a kid named Sebastian Vettel drove brilliantly over the course of a wet weekend, AND driving for the Junior team no less. Then when the new regs came in, initially they were pretty good but not excellent. And need anyone be reminded that Brawn was clearly the top car and Red Bull was only able to bridge the gap due to Brawn's extremely limited finances that stifled their development throughout the season. While Brawn was struggling to develop even the smallest improvements, Red Bull was throwing truckloads of cash at their team so they could work in record pace with zero worries about running out of money.

To boot, if Newey is such the superior engineer, why didn't he figure out he could develop a DD for the 2009 Red Bull car?
He didn't. But Engineers at Brawn, Williams and even Toyota did.

Starting to get the picture yet people?

All engineers in F1 are extremely talented and supremely capable people, but it takes quite a bit of luck to squeeze all the concepts and ideas into one uniform design and come out on top because every team has an army of equally talented people working towards the exact same goal around the exact same regulations.

That Red Bull is struggling a bit in aero should be of no surprise to anyone because every designer and team will create cars that are simply off the mark. However, the difference and deficiencies of a car can be somewhat overcome by having superb drivers which they've got. And the Engine seems much improved from last year too, but I wouldn't quite say they are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes and that would account for a lot of speed on it's own, so I wouldn't be so quick to believe that the chassis is indeed their main issue. Max looked awfully quick in the first race so with a little bit of development in the right area, they could be challenging for podiums, possibly even for wins.

I think you are omitting some very important facts here. For example, Newey was a king-maker in the 90s. His Williams cars dominated the period from 1991-1997 and then, after moving to McLaren, they became dominant for a couple of years. When he first went to Red Bull, they were in an evolutionary phase of existing regulations and fundamentally at a huge disadvantage to both McLaren and Ferrari. The 2009 regulations changes were really Red Bull's opportunity to catch up and Newey delivered the strongest overall package. He might have missed the DD initially but once they incorporated it, they were the team to beat for years to come.

Let's not disparage the guy. Certainly he hasn't always been the best but, as a chief aerodynamicist, he has been unparalleled in the history of the sport.

Actually I'm not.

Even in the 90's when he joined Williams they had a significant army of engineers and if you remember, what made those Williams so utterly dominant initially was the active suspension system of which Newey played zero part in developing. Their aero was already quite excellent by the time he arrived there and that success merely carried on, and one could argue improved a bit upon Newey's arrival.

And the modern aero technology was born at Benetton and Newey and everyone else played catch up for a couple of years which also shows that he's not the god many will have you believe. And McLaren was extremely successful for many years before Newey's arrival.

Wow. So you really give Newey no credit for those Williams cars? Active suspension was banned in 1994 and Williams still produced the best car in 1995-97. When he went to McLaren, they had just come off of their worst seasons in ages. McLaren from 1994-96 was not a successful team and Newey was perhaps the key personnel acquisition that righted the ship and gave them back to back championships.

The Red Bull project was also obviously a resounding success and I can't see why you would write off his contributions. Not sure what your gripe is with him but he's obviously had a brilliant career.


Newey had no influence on the 97 car which had the pace to win 6 races in 97. Mclaren were on an up curve. I don't think anyone has a "gripe" just suggesting having Newey is not a silver bullet that guarantees suggest.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:31 am 
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From what I read here, Adrian Newey sits somewhere between ordinary and god when it comes to design. I would strongly suspect, though, that if one was seeking a chief aerodynamicist (is there such a word..?) in F1 today his name would be the first off the top of most people's heads.

That doesn't mean that, by default, he will come up with the most tarmac-hugging car each year, so it is feasible that Red Bull may be a little behind the ball aerodynamically at the moment. However, the team does have a reputation for playing catch-up, so I'd expect them to be challenging the front-runners before too long.

Edited for grammar

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Precisely this!

IDK how the legend that Newey is some aero rainman, but teams he's been on have been lackluster plenty of seasons.
He's certainly a top engineer but every team has engineers as equally talented. The reality is that TEAMS of engineers have to work in unison, first lulling over all their ideas & suggestions collectively, and then they must work through the process of elimination to weed out elements they feel are the least efficient and possibly don't work well for the entire system.

This is true for every single team. Yes their is a leader on the team, but they don't make decisions all on their own.

People seem to forget that Newey joined Red Bull way back in 2006 and "His" designs couldn't do much of anything until a kid named Sebastian Vettel drove brilliantly over the course of a wet weekend, AND driving for the Junior team no less. Then when the new regs came in, initially they were pretty good but not excellent. And need anyone be reminded that Brawn was clearly the top car and Red Bull was only able to bridge the gap due to Brawn's extremely limited finances that stifled their development throughout the season. While Brawn was struggling to develop even the smallest improvements, Red Bull was throwing truckloads of cash at their team so they could work in record pace with zero worries about running out of money.

To boot, if Newey is such the superior engineer, why didn't he figure out he could develop a DD for the 2009 Red Bull car?
He didn't. But Engineers at Brawn, Williams and even Toyota did.

Starting to get the picture yet people?

All engineers in F1 are extremely talented and supremely capable people, but it takes quite a bit of luck to squeeze all the concepts and ideas into one uniform design and come out on top because every team has an army of equally talented people working towards the exact same goal around the exact same regulations.

That Red Bull is struggling a bit in aero should be of no surprise to anyone because every designer and team will create cars that are simply off the mark. However, the difference and deficiencies of a car can be somewhat overcome by having superb drivers which they've got. And the Engine seems much improved from last year too, but I wouldn't quite say they are on par with Ferrari and Mercedes and that would account for a lot of speed on it's own, so I wouldn't be so quick to believe that the chassis is indeed their main issue. Max looked awfully quick in the first race so with a little bit of development in the right area, they could be challenging for podiums, possibly even for wins.

I think you are omitting some very important facts here. For example, Newey was a king-maker in the 90s. His Williams cars dominated the period from 1991-1997 and then, after moving to McLaren, they became dominant for a couple of years. When he first went to Red Bull, they were in an evolutionary phase of existing regulations and fundamentally at a huge disadvantage to both McLaren and Ferrari. The 2009 regulations changes were really Red Bull's opportunity to catch up and Newey delivered the strongest overall package. He might have missed the DD initially but once they incorporated it, they were the team to beat for years to come.

Let's not disparage the guy. Certainly he hasn't always been the best but, as a chief aerodynamicist, he has been unparalleled in the history of the sport.

Actually I'm not.

Even in the 90's when he joined Williams they had a significant army of engineers and if you remember, what made those Williams so utterly dominant initially was the active suspension system of which Newey played zero part in developing. Their aero was already quite excellent by the time he arrived there and that success merely carried on, and one could argue improved a bit upon Newey's arrival.

And the modern aero technology was born at Benetton and Newey and everyone else played catch up for a couple of years which also shows that he's not the god many will have you believe. And McLaren was extremely successful for many years before Newey's arrival.

Wow. So you really give Newey no credit for those Williams cars? Active suspension was banned in 1994 and Williams still produced the best car in 1995-97. When he went to McLaren, they had just come off of their worst seasons in ages. McLaren from 1994-96 was not a successful team and Newey was perhaps the key personnel acquisition that righted the ship and gave them back to back championships.

The Red Bull project was also obviously a resounding success and I can't see why you would write off his contributions. Not sure what your gripe is with him but he's obviously had a brilliant career.


Newey had no influence on the 97 car which had the pace to win 6 races in 97. Mclaren were on an up curve. I don't think anyone has a "gripe" just suggesting having Newey is not a silver bullet that guarantees suggest.

They won 3 races that year (including inheriting the win in the last race after Schumacher collided with JV). I think the 1998 regulations changes were so substantial that you have to look at it a bit differently than assuming continuity between the 97' and 98' cars.

I'm not saying that he's a silver bullet. In fact this season has proven that he is not but let's not pretend that his track record isn't what it is.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:01 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/red-bull-videos-reveal-exactly-whats-wrong-with-rb13/news-story/7315afe003c0a990d8bebd749e3390a9

I'll raise my hand and admit that I was one of the many fans who assumed that Adrian Newey and co. would absolutely nail the new regulations perfectly but that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? Daniel has made it pretty clear that, at the moment, Red Bull are behind Mercedes and Ferrari primarily because of a lack of downforce. That's right, it's the aerodynamics and NOT the PU that is keeping Red Bull behind right now. Didn't see that coming.

Max is so young that he can just be patient and the team absolutely embrace him and want him to grow with them. Daniel is in a different boat though. I honestly think he has to be thinking of a move to Ferrari or Mercedes for 2018. He's going to turn 28 this year and he needs to think about right now. It's not about the future anymore. Before you know it, there will be younger drivers moving ahead of him in the queue. He needs to put himself in position to at least challenge for a title and I think linking up with either of the top two teams in 2018 is his best bet. At his age, you don't want to be talking about potential anymore; you want to be winning. With Vettel, Bottas and Raikkonen all in the final year of their contracts, 2018 will be his best chance. Ferrari and Mercedes also pay a lot more than Red Bull...

Is Ricciardo not still under contract for 2018?

Ricciardo/Vettel 11 would be quite mouth watering.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/red-bull-videos-reveal-exactly-whats-wrong-with-rb13/news-story/7315afe003c0a990d8bebd749e3390a9

I'll raise my hand and admit that I was one of the many fans who assumed that Adrian Newey and co. would absolutely nail the new regulations perfectly but that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? Daniel has made it pretty clear that, at the moment, Red Bull are behind Mercedes and Ferrari primarily because of a lack of downforce. That's right, it's the aerodynamics and NOT the PU that is keeping Red Bull behind right now. Didn't see that coming.

Max is so young that he can just be patient and the team absolutely embrace him and want him to grow with them. Daniel is in a different boat though. I honestly think he has to be thinking of a move to Ferrari or Mercedes for 2018. He's going to turn 28 this year and he needs to think about right now. It's not about the future anymore. Before you know it, there will be younger drivers moving ahead of him in the queue. He needs to put himself in position to at least challenge for a title and I think linking up with either of the top two teams in 2018 is his best bet. At his age, you don't want to be talking about potential anymore; you want to be winning. With Vettel, Bottas and Raikkonen all in the final year of their contracts, 2018 will be his best chance. Ferrari and Mercedes also pay a lot more than Red Bull...

Is Ricciardo not still under contract for 2018?

Ricciardo/Vettel 11 would be quite mouth watering.


If bottas continues as he is i dont think merc will change their lineup.
There might be an opportunity at Ferrari for Ricciardo but will vettel allow it?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:15 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
http://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/red-bull-videos-reveal-exactly-whats-wrong-with-rb13/news-story/7315afe003c0a990d8bebd749e3390a9

I'll raise my hand and admit that I was one of the many fans who assumed that Adrian Newey and co. would absolutely nail the new regulations perfectly but that doesn't seem to be the case, does it? Daniel has made it pretty clear that, at the moment, Red Bull are behind Mercedes and Ferrari primarily because of a lack of downforce. That's right, it's the aerodynamics and NOT the PU that is keeping Red Bull behind right now. Didn't see that coming.

Max is so young that he can just be patient and the team absolutely embrace him and want him to grow with them. Daniel is in a different boat though. I honestly think he has to be thinking of a move to Ferrari or Mercedes for 2018. He's going to turn 28 this year and he needs to think about right now. It's not about the future anymore. Before you know it, there will be younger drivers moving ahead of him in the queue. He needs to put himself in position to at least challenge for a title and I think linking up with either of the top two teams in 2018 is his best bet. At his age, you don't want to be talking about potential anymore; you want to be winning. With Vettel, Bottas and Raikkonen all in the final year of their contracts, 2018 will be his best chance. Ferrari and Mercedes also pay a lot more than Red Bull...

Is Ricciardo not still under contract for 2018?

Ricciardo/Vettel 11 would be quite mouth watering.


If bottas continues as he is i dont think merc will change their lineup.
There might be an opportunity at Ferrari for Ricciardo but will vettel allow it?

I agree with that. Provided Bottas continues to perform solidly, I think Merc will settle in with their driver line-up for a few years (possibly until Hamilton leaves or retires).

Even though Vettel's contract is up at the end of the season, I don't think he'll want to go anywhere now that the car has come good and I would be shocked if Ferrari let him go when he wants to stay. Obviously Alonso will be on the phone with both Mercedes and Ferrari before the season ends but I think both Merc and Ferrari will view Alonso as unnecessary provided their lead driver remains with the team. Dan has youth on his side when it comes to that and certainly I would peg Mercedes to go after him if Bottas didn't perform up to snuff. Ferrari may want to snap him up as a replacement to Raikkonen too. That Ferrari seat will most likely be open and the alternatives are drivers like Perez and Grosjean. Certainly Dan is a cut above those two.

I think that if Vettel wins the championship this season, Ferrari will look to pair him with a #2 driver like Ro-Gro or Perez. If he does not, Ferrari may go for Daniel.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:39 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I agree with that. Provided Bottas continues to perform solidly, I think Merc will settle in with their driver line-up for a few years (possibly until Hamilton leaves or retires).

Even though Vettel's contract is up at the end of the season, I don't think he'll want to go anywhere now that the car has come good and I would be shocked if Ferrari let him go when he wants to stay. Obviously Alonso will be on the phone with both Mercedes and Ferrari before the season ends but I think both Merc and Ferrari will view Alonso as unnecessary provided their lead driver remains with the team. Dan has youth on his side when it comes to that and certainly I would peg Mercedes to go after him if Bottas didn't perform up to snuff. Ferrari may want to snap him up as a replacement to Raikkonen too. That Ferrari seat will most likely be open and the alternatives are drivers like Perez and Grosjean. Certainly Dan is a cut above those two.

I think that if Vettel wins the championship this season, Ferrari will look to pair him with a #2 driver like Ro-Gro or Perez. If he does not, Ferrari may go for Daniel.


I think your analysis is spot on, but with a Vettel title Ferrari will need a strong driver alongside him even if the newcomer is to play a #2 role, and neither Grosjean nor Perez seem up to the task. One of the biggest complaints about Raikkonen was that he wasn't close enough to Vettel at times.

It doesn't make much sense for Vettel to leave, and Hamilton is unlikely to want the drama that could come with Mercedes signing Vettel. Bottas seems to be a happy medium between a clear #2 and Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:51 pm 
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At the risk of beating a dead horse, I think this last race just furthers my point. Daniel has very little to gain at Red Bull provided they don't have a car capable of winning the championship. If he beats Max, it's because Max is so young and still improving. If Max beats him though, he is basically taken down a peg in terms of his stock in the driver market. It made sense to sign for this year to see whether Red Bull would get things right with the new regs. The fact that they have not makes leaving the correct course of action IMO. If he stays, it's a matter of time before Max gets the upper hand in the matchup and Daniel's stock drops.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Bottas who lost 8 seconds to Hamilton in the last 20 odd laps gained 25 seconds on both Red Bulls over those same laps. Bulls were on SS whilst Bottas was on S, although Bottas' were 5-6 laps fresher. The car is well off, they did well to finish were they did.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:55 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:40 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?

Crazy talk. Before Red Bull, he only designed the 2000-era McLarens, which everyone knows were all duds. Newey just got lucky at RBR - he's a one-trick pony.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:59 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?


Red Bull didn't invent exhaust blowing. Renault started doing it in the early 80's and others followed I believe, it's why Renault in particular were so good despite missing a few hp because they are so good at producing engines compatible to it.

Whenever the regs have allowed for it, Newey has won a championship, since the early 90's. When they don't allow for it in some form he hasn't.

Could well be coincidence of course but I think technically davidheath is right on this one.(Or at least he's not the only one who thinks it because I've definitely heard it before).

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:53 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?


Of course, all those cars had blown diffusers.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:03 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?


Of course, all those cars had blown diffusers.


Even the March 25C that won the Indy 500 and title for Rahal? And can anyone state that the FW15C had exhaust blown diffusers?

Wow, just two races into the season and people are already readying the lifeboats. Why do I see this all the time in forums, people stampeding towards silly season so early on? There are a lot of races to play out, and Red Bull are not far off the mark. They have already improved since Melbourne, they will continue to improve.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:39 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?


Of course, all those cars had blown diffusers.


Even the March 25C that won the Indy 500 and title for Rahal? And can anyone state that the FW15C had exhaust blown diffusers?


Did the RB10-12 have EBD's? Because those were magnificent designs. That they didn't win more wasn't due to Newey and his team, that's for sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:40 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Newey has not won a championship without Exhaust Blown Diffusers (or Coanda Exhausts).

You know he had winning designs before Red Bull right?


Of course, all those cars had blown diffusers.

No they didn't. Newey and everyone else went away from them in the mid 90's because they caused too much of a balance shift between on and off throttle. The FW18 and 19 didn't use one, and I'm fairly sure his title winning McLarens didn't either.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:31 am 
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Some title winning Red Bull weren't quickest out of the box. In 2012 Vettel only started winning races on regular basis during second part of the season iirc. The 2017 car still might win multiple races.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:48 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
Some title winning Red Bull weren't quickest out of the box. In 2012 Vettel only started winning races on regular basis during second part of the season iirc. The 2017 car still might win multiple races.

While I agree that Red Bull might still turn things around this year and it's way too early to panic, to be fair in 2012 it was more to do with the fact that people were trying to understand the comedy tyres. I don't think Red Bull ever had a car at a disadvantage that year.


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Zoue wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Some title winning Red Bull weren't quickest out of the box. In 2012 Vettel only started winning races on regular basis during second part of the season iirc. The 2017 car still might win multiple races.

While I agree that Red Bull might still turn things around this year and it's way too early to panic, to be fair in 2012 it was more to do with the fact that people were trying to understand the comedy tyres. I don't think Red Bull ever had a car at a disadvantage that year.

Fair enough, but this season it's believed that the car suspension isn't tuned, when they sort it out the car still might be quick. There is no indication that the car is fundamentally flawed.

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