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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:54 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
There's always a negative response to having a women's-only series. But nobody has ever been able to suggest any other way to create female role models and get more young girls interested in motor racing

There aren't enough girls getting involved in karting. Well how does one fix that problem?

F1 shouldn't ever be closed off to females though. There are enough men in motorsports. A men-only series would not be warranted


How do we fix the fact that their aren't enough girls getting involved in Karting? How do we fix it? Maybe Testosterone injections from the age of 7? I don't know. How do we get more boys involved in netball or ballet dancing? How do we get more women involved in high rise construction work, welding, bricklaying or Lorry driving and more men involved in Hairdressing, Fashion or Nursing ?

Why. in general, do men like to watch sport and women soap operas? Why do men like movies like The Expendables & women like Beaches? Because we're two different sexes with different chemical compositions which lead us to enjoy different pastimes, different occupations, prioritise things differently, enjoy different discussion topics, have different emotional reactions to stimuli etc etc.

As far as I know, a female has the same opportunity as a male to get into F1 if they're good enough and have the backing and, like a male, thats all they deserve. Maybe the lack of female participation in motorsport is just because,generally speaking, they're just not interested in the bloody sport.

There is not one woman in my life who has even the slightest interest in motor sport and when I've asked why it's been the same answer. "It's boring. They just drive around in circles for 2 hrs". I've never in my life heard a woman use the lack of female participation as an excuse as to why they don't like motorsport. Not once.

If there's ever to be a women only F1 then fine, not a problem. Then the current series should be men only.

You can't have everything.

Ha wow! Sorry grandad but your post is chock full of sweeping out of date generalisations. Soaps are for girls and sports are for boys :lol: Good god I didn't think people thought like this anymore. How 1950s of you

Is rugby more feminine then F1? Or MMA? Or boxing? Plenty of women interested in and competing in those sports. They have role models. Something non-existent in motorsport

And as it is a topic that does repeatedly rear its head as a problem area, whether you like it or not. Maybe something new should be tried to tackle it. Because leaving things as they are just doesn't attract more female competitors


Sorry, just got back from checking my privilege. FYI, it's still there apparently.

You see, this is where you end up these days if you try to rely on something so archaic and outdated as Biology to support your argument. You get attacked personally and accused of having outdated views on life. I was born in the 1970's just to set the record straight.

I have a lot of problems in life I've been told and counted among those many problems I seem to be afflicted with, are that I despise political correctness with a passion and, shock horror, I still believe men and women are different.

Without going too far into biology 101, men and women are biologically different and no amount of name calling is going to change that. We're composed of different chemicals. Our brains are wired differently. We interact with our children differently. We play two different roles in every aspect of our lives. That's not a view or opinion, that's cold, hard facts and part of the upshot of those cold, hard facts is, generally speaking, we like different things.

That's why if you go to a children's dance studio, an overwhelming majority of students will be girls whereas, if you go to a junior football training session, an overwhelming majority of participants will be boys, and that's why if you go to a seniors woodworking workshop, most people there will be men, as opposed to a quilting workshop where most attendees will be women.

In general, we like different things and this isn't by choice, it's simply part of the evolutionary process.

Now, for motor racing. Personally, I don't care if the driver's a male or a female. I honestly couldn't care less. The driver can be a transgender midget Aboriginal Scientologist with a wooden leg and turrets for all I care. As long as that the driver got there on merit, then good luck to them. There is not one reason why a female, if she's good enough and can get the backing, cannot get into F1 today. We've had female F1 drivers before and no doubt it'll happen again. The path to F1 is exactly the same no matter what's between your legs and to argue that the reason that women are not interested in motor sport is due to the lack of female participants is to ignore the facts. Generally speaking, a vast majority of women do not have the passion for motor racing that would compel them to want to participate in the sport. The same applies to Rugby, MMA or boxing. A vastly overwhelming majority of participants and viewers are male.

The path is already there for any female who wants to get into motorsport and try to get to the top. The problem is, there are relatively few females interested in motorsport and of those that are, there are fewer who want to, or have the opportunity to participate in it and of those that do, there are fewer still that have the ability or focus to get to the top. The lack of females in motorsport is not due to lack of female participation, it's simply due to lack of interest and that lack of interest, generally speaking, stems simply from a biological aspect nothing more.

My argument has absolutely nothing to do with biology, biochemistry, physicality, hormones or anyone's perception of how a female performs in a racing car. I'll leave that up to others to debate. Your last paragraph is literally all I'm talking about

I'm saying that there's merit in creating female role models, building a culture where females can stay interested, can point at a series title that's somewhat realistically achievable. As it stands that is not the case. Leaving things the way they are means it will highly likely forever remain the same. And I don't know why people cling dearly to the idea that things should remain the same

On the topic of rugby, MMA or boxing. Here in Ireland one of the biggest role models of either gender in recent times is Katie Taylor. Even the men look up to her. Young women have seen her go out there and dominate. And the response is that more women are taking up boxing than ever - in some parts of the country female participation in boxing clubs has increased from 5% to 20-25%. This is the kind of influence I'm talking about. And if you're going to claim boxing is more feminine than motorsport then you're flippin' deluded

Motorsport is predominantly a men's club. Leaving things the way they are (which is what will continue to happen - nobody has any plans to change the status quo) means that females will continue to have an infinitesimally small chance at succeeding at the top level. Every time I see a backlash against the suggestion of making a change for the sake of getting more women involved, interested and successful it just screams to me that men want to keep it a men's club. And that's just sad

The problem though is who is actually qualified to be a female role model at the moment? Wolff was an embarrassment as far as I'm concerned and did her gender no favours: it was clear racing talent had absolutely nothing to do with her getting into F1. Is that what women should aspire to? Marry a rich guy to get ahead? Not my idea of a role model.

I realise it's a bit chicken and egg but until there is a woman strong enough to get into F1 on her own merits there won't be a role model worthy of the name


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:56 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Could anyone name 10 women who could take part in this series? Or even five?

You're completely missing the point. It's not about rounding up today's top female drivers and saying "here's a series that we've duct taped together - and by the way this is as good as women will ever be in a racing car". As I said in my post above it's about trying to create a culture that breeds more talented and successful female drivers than the ones that are currently active. One would assume that the chances of there being a top female talent would increase if the talent pool was larger

It could start at F4 level. It could take years before there's enough appetite and money behind an F3 level. It could totally fail and fall flat on it's face. Who knows?

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:01 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
How do we fix the fact that their aren't enough girls getting involved in Karting? How do we fix it? Maybe Testosterone injections from the age of 7? I don't know. How do we get more boys involved in netball or ballet dancing? How do we get more women involved in high rise construction work, welding, bricklaying or Lorry driving and more men involved in Hairdressing, Fashion or Nursing ?

Why. in general, do men like to watch sport and women soap operas? Why do men like movies like The Expendables & women like Beaches? Because we're two different sexes with different chemical compositions which lead us to enjoy different pastimes, different occupations, prioritise things differently, enjoy different discussion topics, have different emotional reactions to stimuli etc etc.

As far as I know, a female has the same opportunity as a male to get into F1 if they're good enough and have the backing and, like a male, thats all they deserve. Maybe the lack of female participation in motorsport is just because,generally speaking, they're just not interested in the bloody sport.

There is not one woman in my life who has even the slightest interest in motor sport and when I've asked why it's been the same answer. "It's boring. They just drive around in circles for 2 hrs". I've never in my life heard a woman use the lack of female participation as an excuse as to why they don't like motorsport. Not once.

If there's ever to be a women only F1 then fine, not a problem. Then the current series should be men only.

You can't have everything.

Ha wow! Sorry grandad but your post is chock full of sweeping out of date generalisations. Soaps are for girls and sports are for boys :lol: Good god I didn't think people thought like this anymore. How 1950s of you

Is rugby more feminine then F1? Or MMA? Or boxing? Plenty of women interested in and competing in those sports. They have role models. Something non-existent in motorsport

And as it is a topic that does repeatedly rear its head as a problem area, whether you like it or not. Maybe something new should be tried to tackle it. Because leaving things as they are just doesn't attract more female competitors


Sorry, just got back from checking my privilege. FYI, it's still there apparently.

You see, this is where you end up these days if you try to rely on something so archaic and outdated as Biology to support your argument. You get attacked personally and accused of having outdated views on life. I was born in the 1970's just to set the record straight.

I have a lot of problems in life I've been told and counted among those many problems I seem to be afflicted with, are that I despise political correctness with a passion and, shock horror, I still believe men and women are different.

Without going too far into biology 101, men and women are biologically different and no amount of name calling is going to change that. We're composed of different chemicals. Our brains are wired differently. We interact with our children differently. We play two different roles in every aspect of our lives. That's not a view or opinion, that's cold, hard facts and part of the upshot of those cold, hard facts is, generally speaking, we like different things.

That's why if you go to a children's dance studio, an overwhelming majority of students will be girls whereas, if you go to a junior football training session, an overwhelming majority of participants will be boys, and that's why if you go to a seniors woodworking workshop, most people there will be men, as opposed to a quilting workshop where most attendees will be women.

In general, we like different things and this isn't by choice, it's simply part of the evolutionary process.

Now, for motor racing. Personally, I don't care if the driver's a male or a female. I honestly couldn't care less. The driver can be a transgender midget Aboriginal Scientologist with a wooden leg and turrets for all I care. As long as that the driver got there on merit, then good luck to them. There is not one reason why a female, if she's good enough and can get the backing, cannot get into F1 today. We've had female F1 drivers before and no doubt it'll happen again. The path to F1 is exactly the same no matter what's between your legs and to argue that the reason that women are not interested in motor sport is due to the lack of female participants is to ignore the facts. Generally speaking, a vast majority of women do not have the passion for motor racing that would compel them to want to participate in the sport. The same applies to Rugby, MMA or boxing. A vastly overwhelming majority of participants and viewers are male.

The path is already there for any female who wants to get into motorsport and try to get to the top. The problem is, there are relatively few females interested in motorsport and of those that are, there are fewer who want to, or have the opportunity to participate in it and of those that do, there are fewer still that have the ability or focus to get to the top. The lack of females in motorsport is not due to lack of female participation, it's simply due to lack of interest and that lack of interest, generally speaking, stems simply from a biological aspect nothing more.

My argument has absolutely nothing to do with biology, biochemistry, physicality, hormones or anyone's perception of how a female performs in a racing car. I'll leave that up to others to debate. Your last paragraph is literally all I'm talking about

I'm saying that there's merit in creating female role models, building a culture where females can stay interested, can point at a series title that's somewhat realistically achievable. As it stands that is not the case. Leaving things the way they are means it will highly likely forever remain the same. And I don't know why people cling dearly to the idea that things should remain the same

On the topic of rugby, MMA or boxing. Here in Ireland one of the biggest role models of either gender in recent times is Katie Taylor. Even the men look up to her. Young women have seen her go out there and dominate. And the response is that more women are taking up boxing than ever - in some parts of the country female participation in boxing clubs has increased from 5% to 20-25%. This is the kind of influence I'm talking about. And if you're going to claim boxing is more feminine than motorsport then you're flippin' deluded

Motorsport is predominantly a men's club. Leaving things the way they are (which is what will continue to happen - nobody has any plans to change the status quo) means that females will continue to have an infinitesimally small chance at succeeding at the top level. Every time I see a backlash against the suggestion of making a change for the sake of getting more women involved, interested and successful it just screams to me that men want to keep it a men's club. And that's just sad

The problem though is who is actually qualified to be a female role model at the moment? Wolff was an embarrassment as far as I'm concerned and did her gender no favours: it was clear racing talent had absolutely nothing to do with her getting into F1. Is that what women should aspire to? Marry a rich guy to get ahead? Not my idea of a role model.

I realise it's a bit chicken and egg but until there is a woman strong enough to get into F1 on her own merits there won't be a role model worthy of the name

Absolutely agree 100%, I implied as much about Wolff in a post above. When you're starting from scratch - creating a culture and establishing a role model can't be done overnight

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Last edited by mcdo on Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:06 am 
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Instead of segregating women, why don't we increase the teams to 3 cars each, and make the 3rd seat a mandatory women's seat? After 10 seasons, open the 3rd seat to both genders.

This will give F1 10 years to:
Normalise women in the main game
Promote women in F1
Develop more female drivers to be promoted into F1
Put more cars on the grid

Then in theory, after 10 seasons, teams will be open to both genders competing and we would have developed a female following


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:38 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Instead of segregating women, why don't we increase the teams to 3 cars each, and make the 3rd seat a mandatory women's seat? After 10 seasons, open the 3rd seat to both genders.

This will give F1 10 years to:
Normalise women in the main game
Promote women in F1
Develop more female drivers to be promoted into F1
Put more cars on the grid

Then in theory, after 10 seasons, teams will be open to both genders competing and we would have developed a female following


I don't think watching 10 women trail around at the back - most of whom lacking competence for the job whilst young talented male drivers are unable to get seats will dispel any prejudices. It will just make female drivers a laughing stock.

I don't see why there is anything that needs to be done. Any women that shows the remotest hint of talent is drooled over by F1 teams as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:34 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Instead of segregating women, why don't we increase the teams to 3 cars each, and make the 3rd seat a mandatory women's seat? After 10 seasons, open the 3rd seat to both genders.

This will give F1 10 years to:
Normalise women in the main game
Promote women in F1
Develop more female drivers to be promoted into F1
Put more cars on the grid

Then in theory, after 10 seasons, teams will be open to both genders competing and we would have developed a female following


Firstly, teams would struggle to meet the financial outlay required for three cars even if the added sponsor exposure and media attention would recoup a little bit of this cost.
Secondly where would we find 10 competent female drivers? At present we would have a few decent drivers and half a field of Carmen Jorda's running around. It would make a mockery out of the so called pinnacle of Motorsport.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:08 am 
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None of these ideas work.

There aren't enough women good enough to drive a third seat for an F1 team. In fact I'll rephrase that, there aren't ANY women even close to F1 standard. Having 10 drivers of the calibre of Jorda (and many others worse) on the grid would be dangerous, let alone embarrassing.

Nobody is going to watch a women's only series. Women won't watch something just because there are other women in it. I know a couple who like football but they like Premier League and England games. They have zero interest in women's football at all as the standard is nowhere near the men's game.

It's patronising if anything, the idea women will just watch something because there are other women in it. There are plenty of men who play squash and lawn bowls. I couldn't give less of a sh*t about either of them personally. I don't watch sports because of the genders involved and neither does anyone else.

We don't need women in F1. If they want to and they're good enough then fine but we have survived the best part of 70 years with nothing more than occasional female participation (from a driving perspective at least). 99% women aren't interested in motorsports, so why do we need to change this? It's not like some third world country where they've had no access to it before, women have been able to watch F1 on TV their whole lives and chose not to.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:44 pm 
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It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:49 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:36 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


What if there's not a whole lot we can do?

I'm pretty sure the third car idea would backfire immensely. Even the women available in the upper echelons of motorsport would be far off the pace. Maybe de Silvestro and Wolff could be "reasonable" at best, but drivers like Visser (who I hate to name with the following drivers because I think she's far better), Jorda, Calderon, Cerutti would probably be seconds off the pace if they even could manage driving it at speed without putting it in the wall.

Either way you would pretty much be looking at the women drivers being by far the slowest in the team. I fear that having them trundle around at the back would reduce them to a laughing stock instead of being an actual target for young girls to look up to.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:46 pm 
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mds wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


What if there's not a whole lot we can do?

I'm pretty sure the third car idea would backfire immensely. Even the women available in the upper echelons of motorsport would be far off the pace. Maybe de Silvestro and Wolff could be "reasonable" at best, but drivers like Visser (who I hate to name with the following drivers because I think she's far better), Jorda, Calderon, Cerutti would probably be seconds off the pace if they even could manage driving it at speed without putting it in the wall.

Either way you would pretty much be looking at the women drivers being by far the slowest in the team. I fear that having them trundle around at the back would reduce them to a laughing stock instead of being an actual target for young girls to look up to.


:thumbup: Exactly. de Silvestro is possibly one of the better female talents around and she was badly exposed even in FE. Cerutti was miles off the pace in the same series.

I don't think anything needs to be done to artificially. The sport is hardly closed to ladies. I hardly see any male drivers roaming around in F1 with CVs as poor as Wolf or Jorda.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.


There is also a mechanism already in place that very much has the facility to identify talented girls and women and guide then into F1.

It's called a young drivers program and at least RB, Ferrari, Merc, Macca & Renault have these in place and other teams sign young drivers as part of development programs. These programs are designed to identify young talent and nurture that talent hopefully through the a F1 WDC. Now I would have thought that the various heads of these programs would be falling over themselves to sign a female if they could find one who displayed the aptitude and desire to reach the top.

bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Please tell us exactly why women don't have the same opportunity as men to get into F1? What rule or regulation is preventing a girl from setting her sights on F1? Yes the sport may be run by men but why is that automatically a bad thing? Also, the people who actually hire the drivers, that is the teams, do have women running some of them you know eh? Ever heard of Claire Williams and Monisha Kaltenborn? Last I checked, they were women, they ran teams and could hire a female driver anytime they wanted too. So I gather Claire & Monisha also have this unconscious bias you speak of? The FIA has zero say in who the teams hire. As long as the driver has the required number of points on their licence, there is nothing the FIA could say even if they wanted to.

Banana Man wrote:
None of these ideas work.

There aren't enough women good enough to drive a third seat for an F1 team. In fact I'll rephrase that, there aren't ANY women even close to F1 standard. Having 10 drivers of the calibre of Jorda (and many others worse) on the grid would be dangerous, let alone embarrassing.

Nobody is going to watch a women's only series. Women won't watch something just because there are other women in it. I know a couple who like football but they like Premier League and England games. They have zero interest in women's football at all as the standard is nowhere near the men's game.

It's patronising if anything, the idea women will just watch something because there are other women in it. There are plenty of men who play squash and lawn bowls. I couldn't give less of a sh*t about either of them personally. I don't watch sports because of the genders involved and neither does anyone else.

We don't need women in F1. If they want to and they're good enough then fine but we have survived the best part of 70 years with nothing more than occasional female participation (from a driving perspective at least). 99% women aren't interested in motorsports, so why do we need to change this? It's not like some third world country where they've had no access to it before, women have been able to watch F1 on TV their whole lives and chose not to.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:13 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in

While I completely agree that motorsport would allow for men and women to compete on an equal and level playing field, you first need female drivers of the same caliber as the top male drivers. It would be a travesty to field a female driver just to appease today's equality crusaders who champion causes just so they feel good about being heard.

Fielding de Silvestro will only help to further grow a false sense of entitlement for ANY girl who wakes up one day and decides she wants to try her hand in a race car against "the boys" without having the chops to compete on the same level as the guys. And that's not sexist, it's reality. In fact when referencing race car drivers, I tend to refer to them as Drivers first and gender doesn't really matter to me as long as they are capable of mixing it up with the best of them.

I know people see someone like de Silvestro being so much better than any other female driver and immediately THINK she's capable of competing with other top drivers but as with College football standouts… Once they make it to the big leagues, the speed is too much for them to hang and the vast majority don't make the cut. If she was as good as some people believe, she'd continue to be a standout in Formula E. And FE is nothing compared to for anyone thinking she's good enough for F1, you'll have to give up that pipe dream.

I'm sure one day a female driver will be good enough, but maybe not in our lifetime.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


What if there's not a whole lot we can do?

I'm pretty sure the third car idea would backfire immensely. Even the women available in the upper echelons of motorsport would be far off the pace. Maybe de Silvestro and Wolff could be "reasonable" at best, but drivers like Visser (who I hate to name with the following drivers because I think she's far better), Jorda, Calderon, Cerutti would probably be seconds off the pace if they even could manage driving it at speed without putting it in the wall.

Either way you would pretty much be looking at the women drivers being by far the slowest in the team. I fear that having them trundle around at the back would reduce them to a laughing stock instead of being an actual target for young girls to look up to.


:thumbup: Exactly. de Silvestro is possibly one of the better female talents around and she was badly exposed even in FE. Cerutti was miles off the pace in the same series.

I don't think anything needs to be done to artificially. The sport is hardly closed to ladies. I hardly see any male drivers roaming around in F1 with CVs as poor as Wolf or Jorda.

Just going to defend Cerruti a little as I think it's a little unfair to compare her single-seater results with the other women listed there.
The reason I think that is the others are all (at the beginning of their careers at least) single-seater drivers, whereas Cerruti started racing much later, and in GTs and touring cars. Only after a few years did she decide to try single-seaters - so her racing background is completely different.
Also, in FE she drove only 4 races, and her teammate and replacement (ex-F1 racers Jarno Trulli and Tonio Liuzzi) had only 2 and 1 result, respectively, that were better than her's.
Having said, out of those female drivers, I think I'm right in saying only Visser and Cerruti have won a junior formula single-seater race?

Anyway, that's all I wanted to point out.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Lentulus, the main point was that she's probably one of the women you could nominate for a seat if you had to find 10 women for an F1 seat, despite not being qualified int he least to drive one.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:32 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Please tell us exactly why women don't have the same opportunity as men to get into F1? What rule or regulation is preventing a girl from setting her sights on F1? Yes the sport may be run by men but why is that automatically a bad thing? Also, the people who actually hire the drivers, that is the teams, do have women running some of them you know eh? Ever heard of Claire Williams and Monisha Kaltenborn? Last I checked, they were women, they ran teams and could hire a female driver anytime they wanted too. So I gather Claire & Monisha also have this unconscious bias you speak of? The FIA has zero say in who the teams hire. As long as the driver has the required number of points on their licence, there is nothing the FIA could say even if they wanted to.


I don't know how teams operate, but I would assume Claire, Monisha and all the other Directors wouldn't have complete say over who they hire. I'm assuming they would go through some sort of board. If you can show me Williams and Saubers management model that says they have 100% control over the recruitment and retention of staff, then I'll eat my hat.

Look, to be honest, there's a number of factors that would prevent women from entering the F1, and most of those factors would be the same for most men as well. But I don't accept that women hit a stage in their teens where chemicals kick into their brain and they get an urge to kick off their shoes and walk into a mans kitchen and watch Neighbours.

I accept that the current talent pool is limited at the moment, hence my 10 season comment. You would need to draw a line in the sand at some point in order to invest in the future. Sure, today's female drivers might be off the pace, but the more exposure they get. Teenage girls will see other women in F1 and get a glimmer of hope that if they keep at it, it's an option for them as well. THEN the numbers increase, then the talent might come.

It's why Simona has a 3 year deal in V8s, so she has time to learn, develop and also promote women being in the main game.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:42 am 
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Personally I believe that although women have the potential, they have the deck stacked against them. And they know it. The road to Formula One is incredibly specialized and competitive. It quickly narrows down and unless you display phenomenal talent of have good connections and money, the chances don't just narrow down, they disappear. IMO that is why we see so many women racing in other series.

Yes, some women are not interested. Guess what, I know a lot of guys who feel the same way too. That being said, I know for a fact that there are many women who do wish they could become professional racers. I had one co-worker who was much more than merely good in karts, wanted dearly to progress, but got passed over all the time for inferior male drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:53 am 
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I wanted to see Susie Wolff in that Williams, but considering how her DTM career went, I guess the team thought she'd be a liability. That situation should tell you all you need to know about the lack of women in F1.

IMO it's a mix of prejudice with the fact that most of the women with racing resume these days aren't the best ones, much like how for every Hamilton there are 20, even 30 Haryantos. We don't necessarily end up doing what we're most talented at. It's possible the girl that would become the next big thing in F1 picked something else because it was more advantageous to her, and she wasn't wrong in doing it because she'd have a much easier time doing anything other than trying to enter F1.

I can understand teams playing it safe, though. There have been many men subjected to ridicule in F1 due to their poor performances. If a woman performed poorly, she'd have an even harder time.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:30 am 
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Pole2Win wrote:
I wanted to see Susie Wolff in that Williams, but considering how her DTM career went, I guess the team thought she'd be a liability. That situation should tell you all you need to know about the lack of women in F1.

IMO it's a mix of prejudice with the fact that most of the women with racing resume these days aren't the best ones, much like how for every Hamilton there are 20, even 30 Haryantos. We don't necessarily end up doing what we're most talented at. It's possible the girl that would become the next big thing in F1 picked something else because it was more advantageous to her, and she wasn't wrong in doing it because she'd have a much easier time doing anything other than trying to enter F1.

I can understand teams playing it safe, though. There have been many men subjected to ridicule in F1 due to their poor performances. If a woman performed poorly, she'd have an even harder time.


If a female driver came through with resume of Haryanto she would be drooled over. You can't compare the likes of Wolf and Haryanto. In terms of success in a racing car they are miles apart.

I'm completely baffled by your prejudice comment. Care to venture any suggestions of females drivers who deserved a crack at F1 but didn't get it?


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:49 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.

The door is not wedged firmly open. Jesus Christ mikey you're not an idiot, I'm shocked at that thought process

There is absolutely no culture to promote female participation, which immediately makes it not the same

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:03 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
None of these ideas work.

There aren't enough women good enough to drive a third seat for an F1 team. In fact I'll rephrase that, there aren't ANY women even close to F1 standard. Having 10 drivers of the calibre of Jorda (and many others worse) on the grid would be dangerous, let alone embarrassing.

Nobody is going to watch a women's only series. Women won't watch something just because there are other women in it. I know a couple who like football but they like Premier League and England games. They have zero interest in women's football at all as the standard is nowhere near the men's game.

It's patronising if anything, the idea women will just watch something because there are other women in it. There are plenty of men who play squash and lawn bowls. I couldn't give less of a sh*t about either of them personally. I don't watch sports because of the genders involved and neither does anyone else.

We don't need women in F1. If they want to and they're good enough then fine but we have survived the best part of 70 years with nothing more than occasional female participation (from a driving perspective at least). 99% women aren't interested in motorsports, so why do we need to change this? It's not like some third world country where they've had no access to it before, women have been able to watch F1 on TV their whole lives and chose not to.

Missing the point again Banana Man. It's not about biology, biochemistry, physicality, hormones or anyone's perception of how a female performs in a race car. It's simply about the lack of female participation today

I believe the idea of creating a culture around promoting female drivers is worth merit

When a gang of men argue back that it's not worth merit then I feel like I've accidentally walked into a gay club. Sorry guys, I had no idea

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:09 am 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.

The door is not wedged firmly open. Jesus Christ mikey you're not an idiot, I'm shocked at that thought process

There is absolutely no culture to promote female participation, which immediately makes it not the same


All I mean by that comment is that those at the top - team boses, race promoters etc would love a good female racing driver. There aren't any around that are finding there paths blocked because the PTB only want men.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:36 am 
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i love these threads

one point from me (and just to point out i think it would be great to have women in f1 but only if they are genuinely good enough. and thats a lance stroll good enough not necessarily an alonso/hamilton etc good enough)

anyway, risk aversion


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:23 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Missing the point again Banana Man. It's not about biology, biochemistry, physicality, hormones or anyone's perception of how a female performs in a race car. It's simply about the lack of female participation today

I believe the idea of creating a culture around promoting female drivers is worth merit

When a gang of men argue back that it's not worth merit then I feel like I've accidentally walked into a gay club. Sorry guys, I had no idea



They aren't competing because they don't want to. By that I don't mean there isn't a woman out there who wants to be an F1 driver. I mean there aren't tens of thousands of young girls who have the dedication to karting required to eventually produce an F1 driver.

It doesn't need promoting, it's not as if women aren't aware of the concept of racing cars. There is no merit in this, we want the best drivers in F1, not some PC display of gender equality in the face of an obvious lack of talent.

Not sure I get your gay bar reference, seems a little obscure to me. Would it bother you if I was gay?

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:06 am 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.

The door is not wedged firmly open. Jesus Christ mikey you're not an idiot, I'm shocked at that thought process

There is absolutely no culture to promote female participation, which immediately makes it not the same


I read a lot of rhetoric here but i've not yet seen one iota of evidence to back up these claims. This appears to be the stereotypical SJW tactic.

Claims of Patriarchy, misogyny, unconscious bias & a lack of a pro female culture have all been levelled with the only evidence produced is that because the sport is governed by men and there are no female participants then it is automatically prejudicial against women while conveniently we don't want to discuss biological factors (which any sensible discussion regarding the sexes cannot ignore) or consider simple percentages. As soon as someone wishes to put forward a counter argument, usually backed with a fact or two, there is shock that a person can have these thoughts in this day and age, hint at ingrained sexism and say your being ganged up on.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good crusade eh?

Well here are some facts:

* A vast minority of people on Earth are interested in motor racing, but, of those that are,
* A vast minority of them are female, and of those that are,
* A vast minority of them want to race, and, of those that do,
* A vast minority of them have the opportunity to race, and of those that do,
* A vast minority of them are good enough to even be considered as anywhere near good enough to be competitive.

Now, why is this so? Well, according to some, it's simply because the sport won't go out of it's way put policies in place that promote the sport to women right?

Wrong.

http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

I know the research in this article was led by a man so it probably doesn't carry too much weight, but in summary, it says biological and evolutionary factors do play a significant, if not overwhelming role when it comes to participation in sport with an majority of participants, in all age groups, being male.

Quote:

One 2014 survey of 37 countries, for example, found that in every one, men were likelier to play some kind of sport than women. In a few countries, the difference was not statistically significant, but when the question was narrowed to specify competitive sports like basketball and exclude non-competitive ones like running, the men blew the doors off the numbers, besting women by nearly four-fold. A 2013 study conducted by Deaner and a colleague not involved in the current work found that males were twice as likely as females to be involved or interested in sports across 50 different countries or cultures.


Numbers like this, in this day & age, cannot be simply due to gender stereotypes or lack of opportunity.

Quote

The question gets a little murkier when it comes to one of the great dividing lines between the sexes: sports. On the one hand, both interest and participation in organized sports is still a predominantly male thing. On the other hand, when any culture makes the effort to level the playing field of opportunity, female participation rises dramatically. In 1972, before the enactment of Title IX, the landmark law that ensured gender equality in educational opportunities, only 7% of high school athletes were girls. Today it's 42%. Still, according to a thoughtful new study published in the journal Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, the hard hand of evolution plays at least as much of a role in sports interest and participation as policy does—and quite possibly a greater one. And that, like it or not, tips the balance in favor of males.

Now before anyone wants to run with the "level playing field " comment, can you please demonstrate, using actual examples and not just rhetorical statements, cases of where the sport has actively acted in a way to discourage female participation, to add support to you argument?

People might want to ignore biology and evolution in this discussion but to do so renders any argument redundant as they are, by any margin, the overriding factors in almost everything we do.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If a female driver came through with resume of Haryanto she would be drooled over. You can't compare the likes of Wolf and Haryanto. In terms of success in a racing car they are miles apart.

I'm completely baffled by your prejudice comment. Care to venture any suggestions of females drivers who deserved a crack at F1 but didn't get it?


Susie herself. When Bottas injured himself at the 2015 Australian GP qualifying, Williams chose to run a single car in the race instead of fielding their reserve driver at the time, who was Susie.

It became a non-issue when Bottas recovered in time for the next GP, but if he hadn't, people would start to ask questions. Regardless of her skill, she was the reserve driver and should've raced in Australia. If Williams deemed her unfit, they should've terminated their contract and found someone else.

It's clear that the reserve female drivers in F1 are there just for publicity rather than competence. IMO it's worse to be in that situation than to be a grid girl, because a grid girl at least knows she's there to be looked at, whereas being looked at is not the purpose of a reserve driver. You cheat the public and you cheat the driver herself. It only makes things worse rather than helping fix them.

F1 has been home to all kinds of scrubs over the years. Williams wouldn't be that much affected if Susie crashed one of their chassis.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Pole2Win wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If a female driver came through with resume of Haryanto she would be drooled over. You can't compare the likes of Wolf and Haryanto. In terms of success in a racing car they are miles apart.

I'm completely baffled by your prejudice comment. Care to venture any suggestions of females drivers who deserved a crack at F1 but didn't get it?


Susie herself. When Bottas injured himself at the 2015 Australian GP qualifying, Williams chose to run a single car in the race instead of fielding their reserve driver at the time, who was Susie.

It became a non-issue when Bottas recovered in time for the next GP, but if he hadn't, people would start to ask questions. Regardless of her skill, she was the reserve driver and should've raced in Australia. If Williams deemed her unfit, they should've terminated their contract and found someone else.

It's clear that the reserve female drivers in F1 are there just for publicity rather than competence. IMO it's worse to be in that situation than to be a grid girl, because a grid girl at least knows she's there to be looked at, whereas being looked at is not the purpose of a reserve driver. You cheat the public and you cheat the driver herself. It only makes things worse rather than helping fix them.

F1 has been home to all kinds of scrubs over the years. Williams wouldn't be that much affected if Susie crashed one of their chassis.

This was explained at the time. She was the development driver, not the reserve driver. That requires a different set of skills. Clearly Williams felt she wasn't competent enough to race the car, therefore it's hard to say she deserved it. I don't think that can be held up as an example of how tough it is for women, since if she'd been halfway competent she would have raced. Nobody should be put in an F1 race car just because they are a woman. What kind of message does that send?


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Pole2Win wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If a female driver came through with resume of Haryanto she would be drooled over. You can't compare the likes of Wolf and Haryanto. In terms of success in a racing car they are miles apart.

I'm completely baffled by your prejudice comment. Care to venture any suggestions of females drivers who deserved a crack at F1 but didn't get it?


Susie herself. When Bottas injured himself at the 2015 Australian GP qualifying, Williams chose to run a single car in the race instead of fielding their reserve driver at the time, who was Susie.

It became a non-issue when Bottas recovered in time for the next GP, but if he hadn't, people would start to ask questions. Regardless of her skill, she was the reserve driver and should've raced in Australia. If Williams deemed her unfit, they should've terminated their contract and found someone else.

It's clear that the reserve female drivers in F1 are there just for publicity rather than competence. IMO it's worse to be in that situation than to be a grid girl, because a grid girl at least knows she's there to be looked at, whereas being looked at is not the purpose of a reserve driver. You cheat the public and you cheat the driver herself. It only makes things worse rather than helping fix them.

F1 has been home to all kinds of scrubs over the years. Williams wouldn't be that much affected if Susie crashed one of their chassis.


So you think Suzie deserved to race in F1? Was she denied a fair chance because she was a women? I am afraid I don't understand your logic.... Wolf was a victim of sexism because she was over promoted based on her gender? Surely that is quite the opposite?

I would venture that Williams chose not to run Wolf because of her dire racing record rather than because of her gender.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Pole2Win wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If a female driver came through with resume of Haryanto she would be drooled over. You can't compare the likes of Wolf and Haryanto. In terms of success in a racing car they are miles apart.

I'm completely baffled by your prejudice comment. Care to venture any suggestions of females drivers who deserved a crack at F1 but didn't get it?


Susie herself. When Bottas injured himself at the 2015 Australian GP qualifying, Williams chose to run a single car in the race instead of fielding their reserve driver at the time, who was Susie.

It became a non-issue when Bottas recovered in time for the next GP, but if he hadn't, people would start to ask questions. Regardless of her skill, she was the reserve driver and should've raced in Australia. If Williams deemed her unfit, they should've terminated their contract and found someone else.

It's clear that the reserve female drivers in F1 are there just for publicity rather than competence. IMO it's worse to be in that situation than to be a grid girl, because a grid girl at least knows she's there to be looked at, whereas being looked at is not the purpose of a reserve driver. You cheat the public and you cheat the driver herself. It only makes things worse rather than helping fix them.

F1 has been home to all kinds of scrubs over the years. Williams wouldn't be that much affected if Susie crashed one of their chassis.


Suzie wasn't able to race as she hadn't taken part in any of the qualifying sessions. The same as Kobayashi wasn't allowed to race at Suzuka in 2009 or Gene at Hungary the same year. It's was nothing to do with gender.

Suzie wasn't the reserve driver anyway, she was a test driver. It was only Wolff herself who was bleating about how she was ready to race, she had ideas way above her station. She wouldn't be anywhere near Williams if she wasn't married to their engine supplier.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Found this article, some interesting quotes from Suzi Wolff

http://m.bbc.com/sport/formula1/18332772

Susie wrote:
One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up, whereas a young boy can grow up wanting to be Sebastian Vettel,


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:16 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Found this article, some interesting quotes from Suzi Wolff

http://m.bbc.com/sport/formula1/18332772

Susie wrote:
One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up, whereas a young boy can grow up wanting to be Sebastian Vettel,

Chicken and egg again. There needs to be a decent female racing driver to put in the car first and so far no-one has been eligible.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:20 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Found this article, some interesting quotes from Suzi Wolff

http://m.bbc.com/sport/formula1/18332772

Susie wrote:
One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up, whereas a young boy can grow up wanting to be Sebastian Vettel


So a young woman can't grow up wanting to be Sebastian Vettel? Seriously, when has Seb ever won a race and said, "this win wouldn't have been possible without my k**b and b***ocks."?

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.

The door is not wedged firmly open. Jesus Christ mikey you're not an idiot, I'm shocked at that thought process

There is absolutely no culture to promote female participation, which immediately makes it not the same


I read a lot of rhetoric here but i've not yet seen one iota of evidence to back up these claims. This appears to be the stereotypical SJW tactic.

Claims of Patriarchy, misogyny, unconscious bias & a lack of a pro female culture have all been levelled with the only evidence produced is that because the sport is governed by men and there are no female participants then it is automatically prejudicial against women while conveniently we don't want to discuss biological factors (which any sensible discussion regarding the sexes cannot ignore) or consider simple percentages. As soon as someone wishes to put forward a counter argument, usually backed with a fact or two, there is shock that a person can have these thoughts in this day and age, hint at ingrained sexism and say your being ganged up on.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good crusade eh?

Well here are some facts:

* A vast minority of people on Earth are interested in motor racing, but, of those that are,
* A vast minority of them are female, and of those that are,
* A vast minority of them want to race, and, of those that do,
* A vast minority of them have the opportunity to race, and of those that do,
* A vast minority of them are good enough to even be considered as anywhere near good enough to be competitive.

Now, why is this so? Well, according to some, it's simply because the sport won't go out of it's way put policies in place that promote the sport to women right?

Wrong.

http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

I know the research in this article was led by a man so it probably doesn't carry too much weight, but in summary, it says biological and evolutionary factors do play a significant, if not overwhelming role when it comes to participation in sport with an majority of participants, in all age groups, being male.

Quote:

One 2014 survey of 37 countries, for example, found that in every one, men were likelier to play some kind of sport than women. In a few countries, the difference was not statistically significant, but when the question was narrowed to specify competitive sports like basketball and exclude non-competitive ones like running, the men blew the doors off the numbers, besting women by nearly four-fold. A 2013 study conducted by Deaner and a colleague not involved in the current work found that males were twice as likely as females to be involved or interested in sports across 50 different countries or cultures.


Numbers like this, in this day & age, cannot be simply due to gender stereotypes or lack of opportunity.

Quote

The question gets a little murkier when it comes to one of the great dividing lines between the sexes: sports. On the one hand, both interest and participation in organized sports is still a predominantly male thing. On the other hand, when any culture makes the effort to level the playing field of opportunity, female participation rises dramatically. In 1972, before the enactment of Title IX, the landmark law that ensured gender equality in educational opportunities, only 7% of high school athletes were girls. Today it's 42%. Still, according to a thoughtful new study published in the journal Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, the hard hand of evolution plays at least as much of a role in sports interest and participation as policy does—and quite possibly a greater one. And that, like it or not, tips the balance in favor of males.

Now before anyone wants to run with the "level playing field " comment, can you please demonstrate, using actual examples and not just rhetorical statements, cases of where the sport has actively acted in a way to discourage female participation, to add support to you argument?

People might want to ignore biology and evolution in this discussion but to do so renders any argument redundant as they are, by any margin, the overriding factors in almost everything we do.


I think I'm understanding how this forum works. Person A can get away with saying whatever they feel like, and if Person B disagrees, Person A hammers them with "Find me evidence of.." "Show me a link confirming..."

I feel like the biology argument is redundant, because if it were true, there would be 0 female racers at all. Otherwise how can we explain Danica, Simona et all?

My turn - Show me an article from a female racer saying she's been disadvantaged because of her biology and evolution?


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 10482
bradtheboywonder wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.

The door is not wedged firmly open. Jesus Christ mikey you're not an idiot, I'm shocked at that thought process

There is absolutely no culture to promote female participation, which immediately makes it not the same


I read a lot of rhetoric here but i've not yet seen one iota of evidence to back up these claims. This appears to be the stereotypical SJW tactic.

Claims of Patriarchy, misogyny, unconscious bias & a lack of a pro female culture have all been levelled with the only evidence produced is that because the sport is governed by men and there are no female participants then it is automatically prejudicial against women while conveniently we don't want to discuss biological factors (which any sensible discussion regarding the sexes cannot ignore) or consider simple percentages. As soon as someone wishes to put forward a counter argument, usually backed with a fact or two, there is shock that a person can have these thoughts in this day and age, hint at ingrained sexism and say your being ganged up on.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good crusade eh?

Well here are some facts:

* A vast minority of people on Earth are interested in motor racing, but, of those that are,
* A vast minority of them are female, and of those that are,
* A vast minority of them want to race, and, of those that do,
* A vast minority of them have the opportunity to race, and of those that do,
* A vast minority of them are good enough to even be considered as anywhere near good enough to be competitive.

Now, why is this so? Well, according to some, it's simply because the sport won't go out of it's way put policies in place that promote the sport to women right?

Wrong.

http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

I know the research in this article was led by a man so it probably doesn't carry too much weight, but in summary, it says biological and evolutionary factors do play a significant, if not overwhelming role when it comes to participation in sport with an majority of participants, in all age groups, being male.

Quote:

One 2014 survey of 37 countries, for example, found that in every one, men were likelier to play some kind of sport than women. In a few countries, the difference was not statistically significant, but when the question was narrowed to specify competitive sports like basketball and exclude non-competitive ones like running, the men blew the doors off the numbers, besting women by nearly four-fold. A 2013 study conducted by Deaner and a colleague not involved in the current work found that males were twice as likely as females to be involved or interested in sports across 50 different countries or cultures.


Numbers like this, in this day & age, cannot be simply due to gender stereotypes or lack of opportunity.

Quote

The question gets a little murkier when it comes to one of the great dividing lines between the sexes: sports. On the one hand, both interest and participation in organized sports is still a predominantly male thing. On the other hand, when any culture makes the effort to level the playing field of opportunity, female participation rises dramatically. In 1972, before the enactment of Title IX, the landmark law that ensured gender equality in educational opportunities, only 7% of high school athletes were girls. Today it's 42%. Still, according to a thoughtful new study published in the journal Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, the hard hand of evolution plays at least as much of a role in sports interest and participation as policy does—and quite possibly a greater one. And that, like it or not, tips the balance in favor of males.

Now before anyone wants to run with the "level playing field " comment, can you please demonstrate, using actual examples and not just rhetorical statements, cases of where the sport has actively acted in a way to discourage female participation, to add support to you argument?

People might want to ignore biology and evolution in this discussion but to do so renders any argument redundant as they are, by any margin, the overriding factors in almost everything we do.


I think I'm understanding how this forum works. Person A can get away with saying whatever they feel like, and if Person B disagrees, Person A hammers them with "Find me evidence of.." "Show me a link confirming..."

I feel like the biology argument is redundant, because if it were true, there would be 0 female racers at all. Otherwise how can we explain Danica, Simona et all?

My turn - Show me an article from a female racer saying she's been disadvantaged because of her biology and evolution?


I'm not sure I fully by into the biology argument but that is a daft thing to say. Look at it like this - Almost all men are clearly capable of lifting more weight than almost all women of the same age. However there are still some women who can lift more than some men. They can overcome there biological disadvantage by better genetics, better health, better nutrition or a lot more training.

Same clearly applies for the biological argument being made above.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 775
Location: Far side of Koozebane
bradtheboywonder wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
It's funny to me reading posts from guys saying whether or not we need women in Motorsport, and what women like to see.

Fact is the sport is run by men and there will always be unconscious bias to select someone most like you. You say women have equal chance if they are good enough, but I can tell you it's not the case.

I can't tell you 10 female drivers capable, because honestly I don't follow junior categories. But I'm looking at the V8 Supercars and their signing of Simona for this very reason. They know she's not going to be successful straight away, but she's an investment. She's giving girls someone to look up to.

Motorsport is one of the only sports where men and women can race as equals, so we should do whatever is required to get them in


Most F1 team bosses dream of being able to higher a competitive women. Plenty have gone out and taken women who are hopeless. Just because of there gender. If a female racing driver hits the 40 super licence points they will be racing in F1 immediately. There are far fewer competitive ladies racing because there are far fewer teenage girls who want to race karts. If they don't want to why should anyone make them.

The door is wedged firmly open for a female racing driver.

The door is not wedged firmly open. Jesus Christ mikey you're not an idiot, I'm shocked at that thought process

There is absolutely no culture to promote female participation, which immediately makes it not the same


I read a lot of rhetoric here but i've not yet seen one iota of evidence to back up these claims. This appears to be the stereotypical SJW tactic.

Claims of Patriarchy, misogyny, unconscious bias & a lack of a pro female culture have all been levelled with the only evidence produced is that because the sport is governed by men and there are no female participants then it is automatically prejudicial against women while conveniently we don't want to discuss biological factors (which any sensible discussion regarding the sexes cannot ignore) or consider simple percentages. As soon as someone wishes to put forward a counter argument, usually backed with a fact or two, there is shock that a person can have these thoughts in this day and age, hint at ingrained sexism and say your being ganged up on.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good crusade eh?

Well here are some facts:

* A vast minority of people on Earth are interested in motor racing, but, of those that are,
* A vast minority of them are female, and of those that are,
* A vast minority of them want to race, and, of those that do,
* A vast minority of them have the opportunity to race, and of those that do,
* A vast minority of them are good enough to even be considered as anywhere near good enough to be competitive.

Now, why is this so? Well, according to some, it's simply because the sport won't go out of it's way put policies in place that promote the sport to women right?

Wrong.

http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

I know the research in this article was led by a man so it probably doesn't carry too much weight, but in summary, it says biological and evolutionary factors do play a significant, if not overwhelming role when it comes to participation in sport with an majority of participants, in all age groups, being male.

Quote:

One 2014 survey of 37 countries, for example, found that in every one, men were likelier to play some kind of sport than women. In a few countries, the difference was not statistically significant, but when the question was narrowed to specify competitive sports like basketball and exclude non-competitive ones like running, the men blew the doors off the numbers, besting women by nearly four-fold. A 2013 study conducted by Deaner and a colleague not involved in the current work found that males were twice as likely as females to be involved or interested in sports across 50 different countries or cultures.


Numbers like this, in this day & age, cannot be simply due to gender stereotypes or lack of opportunity.

Quote

The question gets a little murkier when it comes to one of the great dividing lines between the sexes: sports. On the one hand, both interest and participation in organized sports is still a predominantly male thing. On the other hand, when any culture makes the effort to level the playing field of opportunity, female participation rises dramatically. In 1972, before the enactment of Title IX, the landmark law that ensured gender equality in educational opportunities, only 7% of high school athletes were girls. Today it's 42%. Still, according to a thoughtful new study published in the journal Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, the hard hand of evolution plays at least as much of a role in sports interest and participation as policy does—and quite possibly a greater one. And that, like it or not, tips the balance in favor of males.

Now before anyone wants to run with the "level playing field " comment, can you please demonstrate, using actual examples and not just rhetorical statements, cases of where the sport has actively acted in a way to discourage female participation, to add support to you argument?

People might want to ignore biology and evolution in this discussion but to do so renders any argument redundant as they are, by any margin, the overriding factors in almost everything we do.


I think I'm understanding how this forum works. Person A can get away with saying whatever they feel like, and if Person B disagrees, Person A hammers them with "Find me evidence of.." "Show me a link confirming..."

I feel like the biology argument is redundant, because if it were true, there would be 0 female racers at all. Otherwise how can we explain Danica, Simona et all?

My turn - Show me an article from a female racer saying she's been disadvantaged because of her biology and evolution?


Forums, and debates in general, usually rely on participants supporting their positions with facts, quotes, evidence etc. I know it may be an outdated concept but it seems to be one that adds a certain amount of credibility and validity to ones argument. I dunno, maybe i'm just getting old.

I've provided a link to an independent scientific study that confirms biology and evolution plays a significant role in female participation in sport, which goes someway to explaining the lack of female participation in motor sport and, a tad ironically, the article you provided the link for supports that.

While Wolff agreed that women are generally not risk-takers, she said those who want to be racing drivers break the mould.

"I'm not like other females," she said."


It was also encouraging to read, from your link, that Suzi feels F1 is supportive of getting a female into the sport keeping in mind this article is from 2012.

"Definitely within the next decade," said Wolff. "There's a few of us close to F1 now. It would just take a massive leap of faith for one of the teams to give a female a chance. There are many people within F1 who would like to see it happen."

As for your reason as to why you think the biology argument is redundant, I just don't know what to say. I'm staggered that in 2017 you'd think that is actually the way biology & evolution works.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Posts: 18567
Jezza13 wrote:
"Definitely within the next decade," said Wolff. "There's a few of us close to F1 now. It would just take a massive leap of faith for one of the teams to give a female a chance. There are many people within F1 who would like to see it happen."


And the reason why it would take a massive leap of faith is that F1 teams don't win anything by promoting diversity, they win by promoting the best talent. None of the women "close to F1 now" are worth taking a massive leap of faith for because the team that does so would lose on track to the competition. I've no doubt it will happen one day, but there's no point promoting by numbers if the raw talent isn't there


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 784
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
"Definitely within the next decade," said Wolff. "There's a few of us close to F1 now. It would just take a massive leap of faith for one of the teams to give a female a chance. There are many people within F1 who would like to see it happen."


And the reason why it would take a massive leap of faith is that F1 teams don't win anything by promoting diversity, they win by promoting the best talent. None of the women "close to F1 now" are worth taking a massive leap of faith for because the team that does so would lose on track to the competition. I've no doubt it will happen one day, but there's no point promoting by numbers if the raw talent isn't there


If a mid-field team had a less than stellar driver it would be likely they would lose at least ten million because of the payouts decided on team placings at end of season. Faith is nice, but it is fantasy and does not match up against ten million.

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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 25
Banana Man wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
Found this article, some interesting quotes from Suzi Wolff

http://m.bbc.com/sport/formula1/18332772

Susie wrote:
One of the main issues is that young girls have no one to aspire to growing up, whereas a young boy can grow up wanting to be Sebastian Vettel


So a young woman can't grow up wanting to be Sebastian Vettel? Seriously, when has Seb ever won a race and said, "this win wouldn't have been possible without my k**b and b***ocks."?


It's funny but, he didn't quite say the above, but he did say this

Sebastian Vettel wrote:
Time will tell! I don't have a crystal ball. I have two other balls but they don't tell me much.


http://m.crash.net/f1/news/240547/1/bal ... start.html


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:10 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
As for your reason as to why you think the biology argument is redundant, I just don't know what to say. I'm staggered that in 2017 you'd think that is actually the way biology & evolution works.


I admit I'm not an expert in biology, but I know history, and I know over the last 200 years, people have claimed that blacks and Jews were biologically inferior to white people, gays can be cured and the French are the greatest lovers on earth.

So in my opinion, biology has been used as a way to justify discrimination. Knowing the thoughts of experts then, and knowing what we know now, I take your claims and proof with a grain of salt.


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 Post subject: Re: Women's F1 series
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
"Definitely within the next decade," said Wolff. "There's a few of us close to F1 now. It would just take a massive leap of faith for one of the teams to give a female a chance. There are many people within F1 who would like to see it happen."


And the reason why it would take a massive leap of faith is that F1 teams don't win anything by promoting diversity, they win by promoting the best talent. None of the women "close to F1 now" are worth taking a massive leap of faith for because the team that does so would lose on track to the competition. I've no doubt it will happen one day, but there's no point promoting by numbers if the raw talent isn't there


Wolff annoys me TBH.

This just stinks of naivety and playing the victim. As if her gender was what stopped a top team giving her a chance. If I could paraphrase her a little more accurately, "It would just take a massive leap of faith for one of the teams to give a significantly untalented driver a chance"

Also annoying that she got an MBE basically for marrying Toto.

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