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Will (and should) Kimi get another contract this year?
Yes - Kimi will get his contract renewed, and he deserves it. 13%  13%  [ 10 ]
Yes - Kimi will get his contract renewed, but he doesn't deserve it. 15%  15%  [ 12 ]
No - Kimi will not get his contract renewed, but he deserves to. 6%  6%  [ 5 ]
No - Kimi will not get his contract renewed, and he doesn't deserve to. 65%  65%  [ 51 ]
Total votes : 78
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Nosebuckle wrote:
I wish Kimi would realize he's probably not going to improve in his performance and go out on his own terms. I count myself as a fan as well, but it's frustrating to watch him go backwards. Unless something changes drastically this season, I'd wager Ferrari is going to replace him. I don't see that happening so it'd be nice to see him sent off gracefully.

I see no reason to believe his performances can't improve.

There's nothing new here. He couldn't get the car set up the way he liked it in Australia and then in China this was exacerbated by the lack of Free Practice. Both times the car wasn't set up the way he needed it to be and when that happens he's frankly rubbish at coping. The low temperatures didn't help, either. But if he gets it set up right in Bahrain then don't be surprised to see him keeping up with the others.

The problem's not Kimi being slow, or that he's "lost" it. The problem is, and has always been, that he has a tolerance window of around 0.05% and anything outside that means he can't cope. Inside that, he's fine. But he's just crap at adapting

I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:07 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Nosebuckle wrote:
I wish Kimi would realize he's probably not going to improve in his performance and go out on his own terms. I count myself as a fan as well, but it's frustrating to watch him go backwards. Unless something changes drastically this season, I'd wager Ferrari is going to replace him. I don't see that happening so it'd be nice to see him sent off gracefully.

I see no reason to believe his performances can't improve.

There's nothing new here. He couldn't get the car set up the way he liked it in Australia and then in China this was exacerbated by the lack of Free Practice. Both times the car wasn't set up the way he needed it to be and when that happens he's frankly rubbish at coping. The low temperatures didn't help, either. But if he gets it set up right in Bahrain then don't be surprised to see him keeping up with the others.

The problem's not Kimi being slow, or that he's "lost" it. The problem is, and has always been, that he has a tolerance window of around 0.05% and anything outside that means he can't cope. Inside that, he's fine. But he's just crap at adapting

I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.



I sometimes wonder how much of this is the inability of (or lack of ) communication as to what the problem is.
Its no good just saying the front don't feel right, the driver has to tell the engineer why. He can only look at numbers and say 'well they are all in spec and the car was never going to wash out', and not just in Kimi's case, although he does not come over as the best communicator.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:24 am 
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moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Nosebuckle wrote:
I wish Kimi would realize he's probably not going to improve in his performance and go out on his own terms. I count myself as a fan as well, but it's frustrating to watch him go backwards. Unless something changes drastically this season, I'd wager Ferrari is going to replace him. I don't see that happening so it'd be nice to see him sent off gracefully.

I see no reason to believe his performances can't improve.

There's nothing new here. He couldn't get the car set up the way he liked it in Australia and then in China this was exacerbated by the lack of Free Practice. Both times the car wasn't set up the way he needed it to be and when that happens he's frankly rubbish at coping. The low temperatures didn't help, either. But if he gets it set up right in Bahrain then don't be surprised to see him keeping up with the others.

The problem's not Kimi being slow, or that he's "lost" it. The problem is, and has always been, that he has a tolerance window of around 0.05% and anything outside that means he can't cope. Inside that, he's fine. But he's just crap at adapting

I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.



I sometimes wonder how much of this is the inability of (or lack of ) communication as to what the problem is.
Its no good just saying the front don't feel right, the driver has to tell the engineer why. He can only look at numbers and say 'well they are all in spec and the car was never going to wash out', and not just in Kimi's case, although he does not come over as the best communicator.

I'm pretty sure that the feedback from engineers at McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari has been that Kimi gives pretty good feedback. It's just he needs things to be exactly right and I don't imagine that's easy


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.



I sometimes wonder how much of this is the inability of (or lack of ) communication as to what the problem is.
Its no good just saying the front don't feel right, the driver has to tell the engineer why. He can only look at numbers and say 'well they are all in spec and the car was never going to wash out', and not just in Kimi's case, although he does not come over as the best communicator.

I'm pretty sure that the feedback from engineers at McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari has been that Kimi gives pretty good feedback. It's just he needs things to be exactly right and I don't imagine that's easy


In the real world, having everything right is a veritable fantasy. If Kimi has to have everything 99.95% perfect, he's useless to any team.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:53 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.



I sometimes wonder how much of this is the inability of (or lack of ) communication as to what the problem is.
Its no good just saying the front don't feel right, the driver has to tell the engineer why. He can only look at numbers and say 'well they are all in spec and the car was never going to wash out', and not just in Kimi's case, although he does not come over as the best communicator.

I'm pretty sure that the feedback from engineers at McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari has been that Kimi gives pretty good feedback. It's just he needs things to be exactly right and I don't imagine that's easy


In the real world, having everything right is a veritable fantasy. If Kimi has to have everything 99.95% perfect, he's useless to any team.

Yep I'd agree that there has to be a point where sensitivity outweighs ultimate performance. It's up to the teams to determine when that point has been reached.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:43 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
In the real world, having everything right is a veritable fantasy. If Kimi has to have everything 99.95% perfect, he's useless to any team.
The problem, as I see it, is the way "the real world" keeps changing. When Kimi started out, a team was free to adapt the car to what testing showed up as the way to evolve, and to test whether the adaptations work or not. Like Schumacher, Räikkönen suffered and still suffers from the reduced testing, and from the ever changing nature of circus tyres.

I think Zoue's point about age is correct.

And I clearly remember Ferrari praising Räikkönen's very precise feedback. His present remarks about understeer echo what one of the early reports from Ferrari said about him this time a decade ago: that he was able to handle much more oversteer than Schumacher. Also, I can't help but wonder at this time whether the Ferrari steering system is really what he needs; he had a problem at one point at Lotus. And I believe one of the newcomers this year had a similar problem.
Lots to think about, but I fear Ferrari are still as unlikely to develop with Kimi in mind as they were 9 and 8 years ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
moby wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.



I sometimes wonder how much of this is the inability of (or lack of ) communication as to what the problem is.
Its no good just saying the front don't feel right, the driver has to tell the engineer why. He can only look at numbers and say 'well they are all in spec and the car was never going to wash out', and not just in Kimi's case, although he does not come over as the best communicator.

I'm pretty sure that the feedback from engineers at McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari has been that Kimi gives pretty good feedback. It's just he needs things to be exactly right and I don't imagine that's easy


In the real world, having everything right is a veritable fantasy. If Kimi has to have everything 99.95% perfect, he's useless to any team.[/quote]





i dont think he needs everything right. he just needs the front end to be right. we are talking about fractions of a second and driver confidence can play such a big part in lap time. especially for kimi. he clearly cant position the car exactly where he wants to and doesnt trust it to do what he wants. you could see he didnt hit the apex as often as vettel. im sure it will be better in bahrain.

without wanting to make more excuses, but i will, someone mentioned the lengths mclaren went to to accomodate him. funnily enough this is the period where he made his reputation as one of the best with alonso and schu. i get the distinct impression ferrari have never worked that hard to get the car right for him. 2008 as a prime example.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:27 pm 
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I know that as drivers get older they may lose a little speed, but for me Kimi's issue is more than that.

I just don't see the guy that overtook Fisi on the last lap in Japan all those years back (what a great race that was!).

The McLaren Kimi was a totally different beast to the Ferrari Kimi, as I've said before.

He went to Ferrari as they would give him more personal freedom (plus a car that wouldn't break down as much) and they did give him his WDC in fairness.

But I feel that the McLaren environment (keeping him reined in a little) was better for getting the most of him out on the track.

Just my thoughts, could all be totally wrong...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Thanks for posting this - that fits with what I thought, which is that Alonso had the better aero parts in Melbourne, but not in Shanghai anymore. If anything, the newer engine would in principle have given Vandoorne a slight advantage (until it failed, of course!).

To paraphrase pokermean, one thing I dislike is when people try to find an excuse of favoritism for any time Alonso performs better than his teammates. ;)

Well who to believe when somebody says one thing then somebody else says something different?

I tend to believe the one that has a source - or in this case, I tend not to believe the one that doesn't. McLaren was quite open that Vandoorne had a different specification of car in Australia, so if the same was true in China why would they hide it?

Well I saw the source for Australia but I've not seen any source for China so it's just down to who do you believe?

Fiki's a regular poster so I just went with what he said, now that's been disputed and now I go with that version. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Nosebuckle wrote:
I wish Kimi would realize he's probably not going to improve in his performance and go out on his own terms. I count myself as a fan as well, but it's frustrating to watch him go backwards. Unless something changes drastically this season, I'd wager Ferrari is going to replace him. I don't see that happening so it'd be nice to see him sent off gracefully.

I see no reason to believe his performances can't improve.

There's nothing new here. He couldn't get the car set up the way he liked it in Australia and then in China this was exacerbated by the lack of Free Practice. Both times the car wasn't set up the way he needed it to be and when that happens he's frankly rubbish at coping. The low temperatures didn't help, either. But if he gets it set up right in Bahrain then don't be surprised to see him keeping up with the others.

The problem's not Kimi being slow, or that he's "lost" it. The problem is, and has always been, that he has a tolerance window of around 0.05% and anything outside that means he can't cope. Inside that, he's fine. But he's just crap at adapting

I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.

So Kimi just has a theoretical true performance?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Nosebuckle wrote:
I wish Kimi would realize he's probably not going to improve in his performance and go out on his own terms. I count myself as a fan as well, but it's frustrating to watch him go backwards. Unless something changes drastically this season, I'd wager Ferrari is going to replace him. I don't see that happening so it'd be nice to see him sent off gracefully.

I see no reason to believe his performances can't improve.

There's nothing new here. He couldn't get the car set up the way he liked it in Australia and then in China this was exacerbated by the lack of Free Practice. Both times the car wasn't set up the way he needed it to be and when that happens he's frankly rubbish at coping. The low temperatures didn't help, either. But if he gets it set up right in Bahrain then don't be surprised to see him keeping up with the others.

The problem's not Kimi being slow, or that he's "lost" it. The problem is, and has always been, that he has a tolerance window of around 0.05% and anything outside that means he can't cope. Inside that, he's fine. But he's just crap at adapting

I ask you what is the true performance, the few races were he looks good or the majority were he looks second rate?

well clearly true performance is when everything is set up just the way a driver likes it so he can just concentrate on going as fast as possible without fighting the behaviour of the car. But, along with possibly Button, Kimi has a shockingly narrow operating window and seems all at sea when it's out of his comfort zone. I think it was Fry who said that when he partnered Montoya they had nine different front ends between them for the season, just to get everything exactly right. It shows a) that McLaren at least understood that of your driver is going to have a weakness, then it makes sense to cater for it and b) that Kimi being sensitive to the car is not a result of age or going downhill.

So Kimi just has a theoretical true performance?

What a strange question. He has a performance which is heavily reliant on the setup of the car. How is this hard to understand?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:40 pm 
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Raikkonen has a driving style quite unique among the drivers. His grip on the steering wheel is very casual, he basically drives by the tips of his fingers.

So he has incredibly fine sensitivity, but for him to operate within his comfort zone, the steering system must also be sensitive. But Formula One cars also require power steering, so for Raikkonen, it must be fine-tuned to his preferences and deliver absolutely perfect performance and sensitivity. This requires extra resources by Ferrari, IMO something they did not do during the years Alonso ruled the roost (and claimed most of the team resources). When he held the number one driver status in teams such as McLaren and Lotus, they devoted enough resources to make sure his front end worked to his preferences.

That being said, and although I really like the guy, he is past his shelf life as a Formula One driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Raikkonen has a driving style quite unique among the drivers. His grip on the steering wheel is very casual, he basically drives by the tips of his fingers.

So he has incredibly fine sensitivity, but for him to operate within his comfort zone, the steering system must also be sensitive. But Formula One cars also require power steering, so for Raikkonen, it must be fine-tuned to his preferences and deliver absolutely perfect performance and sensitivity. This requires extra resources by Ferrari, IMO something they did not do during the years Alonso ruled the roost (and claimed most of the team resources). When he held the number one driver status in teams such as McLaren and Lotus, they devoted enough resources to make sure his front end worked to his preferences.

That being said, and although I really like the guy, he is past his shelf life as a Formula One driver.


thats it in a nutshell. do this and hes a top driver.

another example - 2014 pullrod hes generally s***, 2015 pullrod hes generally s***, 2016 pushrod hes much much better. 2017 tbc


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
When he held the number one driver status in teams such as McLaren and Lotus, they devoted enough resources to make sure his front end worked to his preferences.


I don't see why Ferrari would withhold some expenditure if it would produce greater performance for their driver, irrespective of their position within the team. Their aim is to win the WCC.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Adaptability is an important skill for a F1 driver.
That's not something I can see Kimi improve at his age and at a time when his teammate is gunning for the WDC.

In this early part of the season both Mercedes and Ferrari need to make the most of their dominance. Any silver or red car not in the top 4 is a blemish and means points lost.

With this car he should be able to win one or two races on merit at least. He can then bow out of F1 with his 38 y/o head held high. Grosjean and Perez seem to me the most likely candidates for the seat in 2018.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Thanks for posting this - that fits with what I thought, which is that Alonso had the better aero parts in Melbourne, but not in Shanghai anymore. If anything, the newer engine would in principle have given Vandoorne a slight advantage (until it failed, of course!).

To paraphrase pokermean, one thing I dislike is when people try to find an excuse of favoritism for any time Alonso performs better than his teammates. ;)

Well who to believe when somebody says one thing then somebody else says something different?

I tend to believe the one that has a source - or in this case, I tend not to believe the one that doesn't. McLaren was quite open that Vandoorne had a different specification of car in Australia, so if the same was true in China why would they hide it?

Well I saw the source for Australia but I've not seen any source for China so it's just down to who do you believe?

Fiki's a regular poster so I just went with what he said, now that's been disputed and now I go with that version. :)


Sorry, my fault there. I thought I had posted the link on another topic when someone else asked about the specifications so I didn't bother adding it again but turned out I hadn't.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gros ... gp-890479/

Quote:
McLaren's Stoffel Vandoorne has also changed both his turbo and MGU-H, but a Honda spokesman told Motorsport.com that the new units feature a slightly revised specification, and that the old examples were "still alive," and thus in the pool for potential re-use.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:10 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Thanks for posting this - that fits with what I thought, which is that Alonso had the better aero parts in Melbourne, but not in Shanghai anymore. If anything, the newer engine would in principle have given Vandoorne a slight advantage (until it failed, of course!).

To paraphrase pokermean, one thing I dislike is when people try to find an excuse of favoritism for any time Alonso performs better than his teammates. ;)

Well who to believe when somebody says one thing then somebody else says something different?

I tend to believe the one that has a source - or in this case, I tend not to believe the one that doesn't. McLaren was quite open that Vandoorne had a different specification of car in Australia, so if the same was true in China why would they hide it?

Well I saw the source for Australia but I've not seen any source for China so it's just down to who do you believe?

Fiki's a regular poster so I just went with what he said, now that's been disputed and now I go with that version. :)


Sorry, my fault there. I thought I had posted the link on another topic when someone else asked about the specifications so I didn't bother adding it again but turned out I hadn't.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gros ... gp-890479/

Quote:
McLaren's Stoffel Vandoorne has also changed both his turbo and MGU-H, but a Honda spokesman told Motorsport.com that the new units feature a slightly revised specification, and that the old examples were "still alive," and thus in the pool for potential re-use.

Cheers, so the cars were identical in China?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:27 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well who to believe when somebody says one thing then somebody else says something different?

I tend to believe the one that has a source - or in this case, I tend not to believe the one that doesn't. McLaren was quite open that Vandoorne had a different specification of car in Australia, so if the same was true in China why would they hide it?

Well I saw the source for Australia but I've not seen any source for China so it's just down to who do you believe?

Fiki's a regular poster so I just went with what he said, now that's been disputed and now I go with that version. :)


Sorry, my fault there. I thought I had posted the link on another topic when someone else asked about the specifications so I didn't bother adding it again but turned out I hadn't.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gros ... gp-890479/

Quote:
McLaren's Stoffel Vandoorne has also changed both his turbo and MGU-H, but a Honda spokesman told Motorsport.com that the new units feature a slightly revised specification, and that the old examples were "still alive," and thus in the pool for potential re-use.

Cheers, so the cars were identical in China?


Outside of those parts it looks like it, yeah. They both trialed a new rear wing in FP3 but it was removed for Q. It's being brought to Bahrain with some tweaks to it apparently.

Bahrain's Alonso's turn so if they've only got 1 of something it goes to him but I don't know if there will be 1 or 2 tweaked versions of that rear wing they tested.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:51 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In the back of my mind I always have the idea that teams have a really hard time figuring out what a driver's characteristics and needs really are. After Ricciardo beat Vettel, how did the various teams change their views of Vettel?

I don't really consider myself a fan of any driver, but Räikkönen is the one who comes closest to making me a fan, and has done so ever since his first season. If Ferrari don't manage to do for him what Lotus-Renault were capable of, then perhaps it is time to let him go. Or do they feel it is not worth the bother to give him the front end he needs? Do they feel Vettel's performance might suffer if they do? If they do let Kimi go, which driver do they feel would have the driving style and technical needs that parallel Vettel's? And how certain are they of their assessement? And how willing are they to pay to get that particular driver to come to them as a likely number 2 driver?

My hope is that Ferrari are smart enough to work on the car and that this won't be Räikkönen's final year. If it turns out it is, then I will be glad to watch him with even more interest at Francorchamps.

Zoue, are you aware Vandoorne is not driving the same specification engine Alonso is? McLaren are trying to hang on to Alonso, and quite rightly so. Vandoorne's time will come.

Thank's for clearing that up for me, one thing I dislike about these claims of Alonso being the best driver is these advantages that are given to him within the teams, something he wasn't allowed in 2007.

except I don't think that's true. EB said Alonso had a different spec in Australia, but it wasn't PU-related. In fact he went out of his way to say there was no advantage and they were trying different things, which makes sense given how they are effectively running the races as test sessions anyway. If he's had a genuine advantage now then someone's going to have to provide some evidence, I'm afraid.


Now, now, Zoue... don't you go messing what they thought was the perfect Alonso put-down. heaven knows that is is only though "advantages" that Alonso got the reputation as a driver that he has.
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:25 am 
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To be honest, in China he could have been third, without Ferraris ongoing habit to keep him on track too long.
Maybe it was because they couldnt test the tyres in practise sessions so they didnt have knoledge about front tyres that proved to be the problem.
But when you read Kimis conversation during critical moment you cant but wonder, why his race engineer says : you will end up third when he is 3 seconds slower per lap as RBR guys. The detail Kimi himself points out to the engineer. He has to demand tyre change . What I see has been his weak point . He should demand more often.
About the engine he said, there was nothing wrong in it. It was just on wrong engine mode.
All together I wouldnt jump on his neck after two races , but as I see it, he is 38, not as sharp as he used to be, growing family, so this might be his last season.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:29 am 
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appletree wrote:
To be honest, in China he could have been third, without Ferraris ongoing habit to keep him on track too long.


Just a question: how? He was stuck behind Ricciardo, Vettel had come through, and Verstappen was 5 seconds up the road. Maybe fourth was possible if he had been able to undercut Ricciardo, but I don't see him doing more than that. He would have had to overtake Verstappen and if he couldn't get past Ricciardo, I don't see him getting past Verstappen for third.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:59 am 
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appletree wrote:
To be honest, in China he could have been third, without Ferraris ongoing habit to keep him on track too long.
Maybe it was because they couldnt test the tyres in practise sessions so they didnt have knoledge about front tyres that proved to be the problem.
But when you read Kimis conversation during critical moment you cant but wonder, why his race engineer says : you will end up third when he is 3 seconds slower per lap as RBR guys. The detail Kimi himself points out to the engineer. He has to demand tyre change . What I see has been his weak point . He should demand more often.
About the engine he said, there was nothing wrong in it. It was just on wrong engine mode.
All together I wouldnt jump on his neck after two races , but as I see it, he is 38, not as sharp as he used to be, growing family, so this might be his last season.

to be fair, though, he was never 3s a lap slower than the Red Bull guys. Verstappen's lap before Kimi pitted was 1.6s faster, but before that he was 1.2s and 1.3s faster than Kimi. Ricciardo was quicker after his stop, by around 1.7s a lap (with a single lap several laps earlier just after his stop at 2.0s), but as we saw he couldn't get past Verstappen anyway. The odds are still that he woud have caught Kimi, however, as Max was only 9s behind when Kimi pitted, and if his tyres were as bad as he thought Kimi wouldn't have been able to put up much of a defence. Tbh I don't think pitting earlier would have made the slightest difference. Kimi would still have been behind and we saw he wasn't able to pass Ric earlier anyway, so it would likely have been deja vu


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:08 am 
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Blake wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In the back of my mind I always have the idea that teams have a really hard time figuring out what a driver's characteristics and needs really are. After Ricciardo beat Vettel, how did the various teams change their views of Vettel?

I don't really consider myself a fan of any driver, but Räikkönen is the one who comes closest to making me a fan, and has done so ever since his first season. If Ferrari don't manage to do for him what Lotus-Renault were capable of, then perhaps it is time to let him go. Or do they feel it is not worth the bother to give him the front end he needs? Do they feel Vettel's performance might suffer if they do? If they do let Kimi go, which driver do they feel would have the driving style and technical needs that parallel Vettel's? And how certain are they of their assessement? And how willing are they to pay to get that particular driver to come to them as a likely number 2 driver?

My hope is that Ferrari are smart enough to work on the car and that this won't be Räikkönen's final year. If it turns out it is, then I will be glad to watch him with even more interest at Francorchamps.

Zoue, are you aware Vandoorne is not driving the same specification engine Alonso is? McLaren are trying to hang on to Alonso, and quite rightly so. Vandoorne's time will come.

Thank's for clearing that up for me, one thing I dislike about these claims of Alonso being the best driver is these advantages that are given to him within the teams, something he wasn't allowed in 2007.

except I don't think that's true. EB said Alonso had a different spec in Australia, but it wasn't PU-related. In fact he went out of his way to say there was no advantage and they were trying different things, which makes sense given how they are effectively running the races as test sessions anyway. If he's had a genuine advantage now then someone's going to have to provide some evidence, I'm afraid.


Now, now, Zoue... don't you go messing what they thought was the perfect Alonso put-down. heaven knows that is is only though "advantages" that Alonso got the reputation as a driver that he has.
;)

No Alonso has never had any advantages or lap dog teammates?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:27 pm 
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Perhaps we would not be broaching this subject had Ferrari not left Kimi to run 5 laps longer on his tires than Vettel - throwing him behind the Red Bulls (one should also note that at the finish Kimi had cut the deficit between himself and Ricardo down to 2.1 seconds and was catching both Red Bulls, which tells me he was making good use of the fresher tires).

I would not be stickin a fork in Kimi Raikkonen just yet......


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In the back of my mind I always have the idea that teams have a really hard time figuring out what a driver's characteristics and needs really are. After Ricciardo beat Vettel, how did the various teams change their views of Vettel?

I don't really consider myself a fan of any driver, but Räikkönen is the one who comes closest to making me a fan, and has done so ever since his first season. If Ferrari don't manage to do for him what Lotus-Renault were capable of, then perhaps it is time to let him go. Or do they feel it is not worth the bother to give him the front end he needs? Do they feel Vettel's performance might suffer if they do? If they do let Kimi go, which driver do they feel would have the driving style and technical needs that parallel Vettel's? And how certain are they of their assessement? And how willing are they to pay to get that particular driver to come to them as a likely number 2 driver?

My hope is that Ferrari are smart enough to work on the car and that this won't be Räikkönen's final year. If it turns out it is, then I will be glad to watch him with even more interest at Francorchamps.

Zoue, are you aware Vandoorne is not driving the same specification engine Alonso is? McLaren are trying to hang on to Alonso, and quite rightly so. Vandoorne's time will come.

Thank's for clearing that up for me, one thing I dislike about these claims of Alonso being the best driver is these advantages that are given to him within the teams, something he wasn't allowed in 2007.

except I don't think that's true. EB said Alonso had a different spec in Australia, but it wasn't PU-related. In fact he went out of his way to say there was no advantage and they were trying different things, which makes sense given how they are effectively running the races as test sessions anyway. If he's had a genuine advantage now then someone's going to have to provide some evidence, I'm afraid.


Now, now, Zoue... don't you go messing what they thought was the perfect Alonso put-down. heaven knows that is is only though "advantages" that Alonso got the reputation as a driver that he has.
;)

No Alonso has never had any advantages or lap dog teammates?


What top driver hasn't had those things at one time or another?.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:32 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Perhaps we would not be broaching this subject had Ferrari not left Kimi to run 5 laps longer on his tires than Vettel - throwing him behind the Red Bulls (one should also note that at the finish Kimi had cut the deficit between himself and Ricardo down to 2.1 seconds and was catching both Red Bulls, which tells me he was making good use of the fresher tires).

I would not be stickin a fork in Kimi Raikkonen just yet......

Well you would expect Kimi to be quicker in a much quicker car.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
[/color]
Thank's for clearing that up for me, one thing I dislike about these claims of Alonso being the best driver is these advantages that are given to him within the teams, something he wasn't allowed in 2007.

except I don't think that's true. EB said Alonso had a different spec in Australia, but it wasn't PU-related. In fact he went out of his way to say there was no advantage and they were trying different things, which makes sense given how they are effectively running the races as test sessions anyway. If he's had a genuine advantage now then someone's going to have to provide some evidence, I'm afraid.


Now, now, Zoue... don't you go messing what they thought was the perfect Alonso put-down. heaven knows that is is only though "advantages" that Alonso got the reputation as a driver that he has.
;)

No Alonso has never had any advantages or lap dog teammates?


What top driver hasn't had those things at one time or another?.

Some seem to have them for most of their career.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Zoue wrote:
except I don't think that's true. EB said Alonso had a different spec in Australia, but it wasn't PU-related. In fact he went out of his way to say there was no advantage and they were trying different things, which makes sense given how they are effectively running the races as test sessions anyway. If he's had a genuine advantage now then someone's going to have to provide some evidence, I'm afraid.


Now, now, Zoue... don't you go messing what they thought was the perfect Alonso put-down. heaven knows that is is only though "advantages" that Alonso got the reputation as a driver that he has.
;)

No Alonso has never had any advantages or lap dog teammates?


What top driver hasn't had those things at one time or another?.

Some seem to have them for most of their career.


Good for them then as nobody would turn it down.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Now, now, Zoue... don't you go messing what they thought was the perfect Alonso put-down. heaven knows that is is only though "advantages" that Alonso got the reputation as a driver that he has.
;)

No Alonso has never had any advantages or lap dog teammates?


What top driver hasn't had those things at one time or another?.

Some seem to have them for most of their career.


Good for them then as nobody would turn it down.

Yes some do especially when they request it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:02 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Perhaps we would not be broaching this subject had Ferrari not left Kimi to run 5 laps longer on his tires than Vettel - throwing him behind the Red Bulls (one should also note that at the finish Kimi had cut the deficit between himself and Ricardo down to 2.1 seconds and was catching both Red Bulls, which tells me he was making good use of the fresher tires).

I would not be stickin a fork in Kimi Raikkonen just yet......

He couldn't pass a Red Bull earlier in the race, so it's doubtful he would have been able to pass one towards the end, either. I don't think pitting him earlier would have made any difference to the outcome, tbh. While it was a bad strategy call from Ferrari, it's being used to mask the fact that Kimi was just plain slow and uninspired in China. The problem was Kimi, not the call.

Now I agree it's very much premature to be discussing his future, but there's no getting away from the fact he's looked pretty woeful overall these first two races.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No Alonso has never had any advantages or lap dog teammates?


What top driver hasn't had those things at one time or another?.

Some seem to have them for most of their career.


Good for them then as nobody would turn it down.

Yes some do especially when they request it.


You've lost me, how can you turn down something you've requested?.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:18 pm 
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Do teams higher lap dogs for Alonso or does his superiority make them lap dogs. For 9 seasons of his career he's partnered drivers who have been with the team longer than him. So I refute the idea teams some how go out and higher number 2's. In fact he has driven alongside 4 world champions and a very nearly champion.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
appletree wrote:
To be honest, in China he could have been third, without Ferraris ongoing habit to keep him on track too long.
Maybe it was because they couldnt test the tyres in practise sessions so they didnt have knoledge about front tyres that proved to be the problem.
But when you read Kimis conversation during critical moment you cant but wonder, why his race engineer says : you will end up third when he is 3 seconds slower per lap as RBR guys. The detail Kimi himself points out to the engineer. He has to demand tyre change . What I see has been his weak point . He should demand more often.
About the engine he said, there was nothing wrong in it. It was just on wrong engine mode.
All together I wouldnt jump on his neck after two races , but as I see it, he is 38, not as sharp as he used to be, growing family, so this might be his last season.

to be fair, though, he was never 3s a lap slower than the Red Bull guys. Verstappen's lap before Kimi pitted was 1.6s faster, but before that he was 1.2s and 1.3s faster than Kimi. Ricciardo was quicker after his stop, by around 1.7s a lap (with a single lap several laps earlier just after his stop at 2.0s), but as we saw he couldn't get past Verstappen anyway. The odds are still that he woud have caught Kimi, however, as Max was only 9s behind when Kimi pitted, and if his tyres were as bad as he thought Kimi wouldn't have been able to put up much of a defence. Tbh I don't think pitting earlier would have made the slightest difference. Kimi would still have been behind and we saw he wasn't able to pass Ric earlier anyway, so it would likely have been deja vu

Well, during those around four -five laps,(34-39) Kimi drove with worn tyres Ricciardo was faster around 1.7- 2.1seconds. Not tree, I admit. Kimi himself phased rufly tree seconds as he fought with his race engineer about pit stop. Wich is ridiculous. Even Horner couldnt understand Ferraris choice. Mark Hughes claims Kimi is second driver who has to settle for worse strategy but he doesnt have to go out of Vettels way on track.
Dunno that but often he seems to hang on track with his tooth and nails until he spits rubber pieces all over.
Its true Kimi would have been behind these two after tyre change but he would have had better chance he was given.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:32 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What top driver hasn't had those things at one time or another?.

Some seem to have them for most of their career.


Good for them then as nobody would turn it down.

Yes some do especially when they request it.


You've lost me, how can you turn down something you've requested?.

Bad grammar.

Alonso actually requests preferential treatment.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Do teams higher lap dogs for Alonso or does his superiority make them lap dogs. For 9 seasons of his career he's partnered drivers who have been with the team longer than him. So I refute the idea teams some how go out and higher number 2's. In fact he has driven alongside 4 world champions and a very nearly champion.

Alonso clearly puts pressure on teams to suit his own needs.

As for the 4 World Champions, JV was washed up and couldn't get a drive, he filled in for 3/4 races, Hamilton wasn't a World Champion hence Alonso thought he deserved the preferential treatment he was promised. Kimi was brought in because LDM promised Alonso he could leave Ferrari if the 2014 car was no good, and with Button the situation never needed to arise in such a poor car.

As for the nearly World Champion Massa he has a 10-2 losing record against teammates, by coincidence the only drivers he managed to beat were 2 of the World Champions you mentioned JV and Kimi, I guess being paired with 4 World Champions in theory sounds like he was being thrown together with drivers who might beat him.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Do teams higher lap dogs for Alonso or does his superiority make them lap dogs. For 9 seasons of his career he's partnered drivers who have been with the team longer than him. So I refute the idea teams some how go out and higher number 2's. In fact he has driven alongside 4 world champions and a very nearly champion.

Alonso clearly puts pressure on teams to suit his own needs.

As for the 4 World Champions, JV was washed up and couldn't get a drive, he filled in for 3/4 races, Hamilton wasn't a World Champion hence Alonso thought he deserved the preferential treatment he was promised. Kimi was brought in because LDM promised Alonso he could leave Ferrari if the 2014 car was no good, and with Button the situation never needed to arise in such a poor car.

As for the nearly World Champion Massa he has a 10-2 losing record against teammates, by coincidence the only drivers he managed to beat were 2 of the World Champions you mentioned JV and Kimi, I guess being paired with 4 World Champions in theory sounds like he was being thrown together with drivers who might beat him.


Plenty of people thought Masse or Kimi would beat him. I've lost count of the amount of team mates I've been told will expose Alonso.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:53 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Some seem to have them for most of their career.


Good for them then as nobody would turn it down.

Yes some do especially when they request it.


You've lost me, how can you turn down something you've requested?.

Bad grammar.

Alonso actually requests preferential treatment.


He did at his first stint at McLaren anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:21 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Do teams higher lap dogs for Alonso or does his superiority make them lap dogs. For 9 seasons of his career he's partnered drivers who have been with the team longer than him. So I refute the idea teams some how go out and higher number 2's. In fact he has driven alongside 4 world champions and a very nearly champion.

Alonso clearly puts pressure on teams to suit his own needs.

As for the 4 World Champions, JV was washed up and couldn't get a drive, he filled in for 3/4 races, Hamilton wasn't a World Champion hence Alonso thought he deserved the preferential treatment he was promised. Kimi was brought in because LDM promised Alonso he could leave Ferrari if the 2014 car was no good, and with Button the situation never needed to arise in such a poor car.

As for the nearly World Champion Massa he has a 10-2 losing record against teammates, by coincidence the only drivers he managed to beat were 2 of the World Champions you mentioned JV and Kimi, I guess being paired with 4 World Champions in theory sounds like he was being thrown together with drivers who might beat him.


Plenty of people thought Masse or Kimi would beat him. I've lost count of the amount of team mates I've been told will expose Alonso.

I remember plenty of Kimi fans licking their lips at the prospect of Raikkonen upstaging Alonso in 2014.

Whoops.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:24 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Do teams higher lap dogs for Alonso or does his superiority make them lap dogs. For 9 seasons of his career he's partnered drivers who have been with the team longer than him. So I refute the idea teams some how go out and higher number 2's. In fact he has driven alongside 4 world champions and a very nearly champion.

Alonso clearly puts pressure on teams to suit his own needs.

As for the 4 World Champions, JV was washed up and couldn't get a drive, he filled in for 3/4 races, Hamilton wasn't a World Champion hence Alonso thought he deserved the preferential treatment he was promised. Kimi was brought in because LDM promised Alonso he could leave Ferrari if the 2014 car was no good, and with Button the situation never needed to arise in such a poor car.

As for the nearly World Champion Massa he has a 10-2 losing record against teammates, by coincidence the only drivers he managed to beat were 2 of the World Champions you mentioned JV and Kimi, I guess being paired with 4 World Champions in theory sounds like he was being thrown together with drivers who might beat him.


Plenty of people thought Masse or Kimi would beat him. I've lost count of the amount of team mates I've been told will expose Alonso.

I remember plenty of Kimi fans licking their lips at the prospect of Raikkonen upstaging Alonso in 2014.

Whoops.


Yeah, big whoops. Kimi has been such a profound disappointment. I used to be a big fan, but after being let down so many times, I finally got rid of all the false hope I used to feel about him.

Kimi just needs to go.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:19 pm 
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"Sleepin'in" needs to be put out to pasture. Just doesn't have it anymore.


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