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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:02 pm 
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I fail to see how this would help at all, the only good thing about it is that it looks better than the Halo.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... t-revealed


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:52 pm 
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owenmahamilton wrote:
I fail to see how this would help at all, the only good thing about it is that it looks better than the Halo.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... t-revealed


Well unless something goes through this piece of plastic (?), it will deflect whatever is coming away from the driver. That's pretty clear. The big question is this material strong enough to withstand a strong hit?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
owenmahamilton wrote:
I fail to see how this would help at all, the only good thing about it is that it looks better than the Halo.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... t-revealed


Well unless something goes through this piece of plastic (?), it will deflect whatever is coming away from the driver. That's pretty clear. The big question is this material strong enough to withstand a strong hit?

I'm not even sure it will come to that. The distortion when looking through a curved piece of plastic from such an accute angle as the one pictured should be enough to kill this.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:42 pm 
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ynot22 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
owenmahamilton wrote:
I fail to see how this would help at all, the only good thing about it is that it looks better than the Halo.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... t-revealed


Well unless something goes through this piece of plastic (?), it will deflect whatever is coming away from the driver. That's pretty clear. The big question is this material strong enough to withstand a strong hit?

I'm not even sure it will come to that. The distortion when looking through a curved piece of plastic from such an accute angle as the one pictured should be enough to kill this.

You beat me to it.

This would help nothing in incidents like Surtees and Wilson so it solves very little outside obscuring vision.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:45 pm 
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This is it:

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Source - www.motorsport.com

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:44 pm 
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And what happens if it starts raining midway through a race?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:49 pm 
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I think this might have helped in Surtees accident, the initial impact might have been on the screen and deflected it and accelerated it somewhat before (if it still did) impact the helmet.

Surtees accident was really down to awful track design, not removing a single tree relatively small tree that meant the barriers sent debris back onto track after a blind corner is absolutely ridiculous and makes me angry. Does anybody know if they have removed this yet? Also a lack of wheel tethering in the lower formulas is worrying. They would be better off just moving the entire barrier closer to the track at least then cars would run along it and not deflect back on to track.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Biffa wrote:
And what happens if it starts raining midway through a race?


I believe they can heat and put such a smooth finish on screens that rain can not attach to them at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:59 pm 
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I think this is much less awful-looking than the halo and so preferable.

Doesnt F1 have wheel retention systems? Surely an accident like Surtees's should never happen because wheels should never be loose. If the wheel tethers dont always work then they need to be stronger.

I think when it rains the air speed over the see-through plastic would be enough so no droplets stay on it. You dont see drivers having trouble with wet visors do you?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:02 pm 
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I can understand the attempt to protect the driver from head-on impacts, IMO the FIA is making this into a popularity contest instead of pure logic applied to safety. And I do wonder if this windscreen thingy would have very poor forward vision.

I understood that hoops, or whatever will probably make the cars less aesthetically pleasing. But IMO Formula One cars are an ugly eyesore anyways, so hanging more crap on them just takes them from ugly into fugly.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:07 pm 
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I still think the Red Bull shield seems like the best solution. It's not very ugly and it won't obstruct a driver's exit from the car.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:21 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Biffa wrote:
And what happens if it starts raining midway through a race?


I believe they can heat and put such a smooth finish on screens that rain can not attach to them at all.

Oil and dirt will probably have a much easier time sticking than water.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:32 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
I think this is much less awful-looking than the halo and so preferable.

Doesnt F1 have wheel retention systems? Surely an accident like Surtees's should never happen because wheels should never be loose. If the wheel tethers dont always work then they need to be stronger.

I think when it rains the air speed over the see-through plastic would be enough so no droplets stay on it. You dont see drivers having trouble with wet visors do you?


You can't make wheel tethers infinitely strong. Energy has to dissipate somewhere.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:00 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I still think the Red Bull shield seems like the best solution. It's not very ugly and it won't obstruct a driver's exit from the car.

I would think that the Red Bull screen would affect driver exit more than this solution would. It comes back farther and sits just as, if not higher than this does.

Something I read elsewhere last night suggested that this would shed rain better than the Red Bull screen because of the more oblique angle.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:20 pm 
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I would just go with the halo, but just try and make it better aesthetically. The screens actually look worse in my opinion. The halo would at least protect against cars riding over the top of each other and large pieces of debris, including wheels. They're the most likely scenarios.

Totally unrelated, but every time I watch a grand prix, I'm amazed more people aren't killed in the pit lane. It's like the cars and the tracks are made safe as possible, but people are still allowed to run backwards and forwards across the pit lane when cars are whizzing passed. I seem to remember a new rule where the media weren't allowed in the pitlane during races was brought in after that cameraman was hit by a wheel, but before the race when cars are travelling to the grid every man and his dog seems to be running around in the pits.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:34 pm 
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I would just go with nothing personally.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:47 am 
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This is never going to fly, surely the shape of the glass will cause all sorts of problems. Not least as dirt builds up because of the shallow angle it will be worse because you're effectively looking through a wider cross section of glass. And what about glare from the sun as well?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:06 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
I think this is much less awful-looking than the halo and so preferable.

Doesnt F1 have wheel retention systems? Surely an accident like Surtees's should never happen because wheels should never be loose. If the wheel tethers dont always work then they need to be stronger.

I think when it rains the air speed over the see-through plastic would be enough so no droplets stay on it. You dont see drivers having trouble with wet visors do you?


You can't make wheel tethers infinitely strong. Energy has to dissipate somewhere.


This is correct, but they are very strong already and its very rare for a wheel to come loose now. Very few tracks allow for wheels and debris to likely come back onto the race track. Monaco, Singapore, Baku, the last corner at Brazil and a few other corners.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:44 pm 
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If they are going this far, they may as well use a digital screen, then they can doctor the image in bad conditions.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:09 pm 
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I'm assuming this is just 1 of the options.

How would it be beneficial in this scenario:

Image
Source - www.telegraph.co.uk

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:42 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm assuming this is just 1 of the options.

How would it be beneficial in this scenario:

Image
Source - http://www.telegraph.co.uk



It would have kept the Lotus from sliding across the front of Alonso's head.

If it didn't break on contact, that is.



That said, I'd rather have a closed canopy if there HAS to be anything there at all, but I'd actually rather keep it open cockpit and let the drivers decide if they are willing to accept the risks, like they have always done.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:53 am 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm assuming this is just 1 of the options.

How would it be beneficial in this scenario:

Image
Source - http://www.telegraph.co.uk



It would have kept the Lotus from sliding across the front of Alonso's head.

If it didn't break on contact, that is.



That said, I'd rather have a closed canopy if there HAS to be anything there at all, but I'd actually rather keep it open cockpit and let the drivers decide if they are willing to accept the risks, like they have always done.


OR, it would have knocked the wheel or bargeboard off which would have folded back into his face :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:31 pm 
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moby wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm assuming this is just 1 of the options.

How would it be beneficial in this scenario:

Image
Source - http://www.telegraph.co.uk



It would have kept the Lotus from sliding across the front of Alonso's head.

If it didn't break on contact, that is.



That said, I'd rather have a closed canopy if there HAS to be anything there at all, but I'd actually rather keep it open cockpit and let the drivers decide if they are willing to accept the risks, like they have always done.


OR, it would have knocked the wheel or bargeboard off which would have folded back into his face :twisted:


True. That's why I say "All or nothing".

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:09 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
moby wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm assuming this is just 1 of the options.

How would it be beneficial in this scenario:

Image
Source - http://www.telegraph.co.uk



It would have kept the Lotus from sliding across the front of Alonso's head.

If it didn't break on contact, that is.



That said, I'd rather have a closed canopy if there HAS to be anything there at all, but I'd actually rather keep it open cockpit and let the drivers decide if they are willing to accept the risks, like they have always done.


OR, it would have knocked the wheel or bargeboard off which would have folded back into his face :twisted:


True. That's why I say "All or nothing".



I am beginning to be swayed to the enclosed point of view now that I have seen the options being presented. We can only see a helmet anyway and a cam inside the cab would give better views of him anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:25 am 
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lamo wrote:
Biffa wrote:
And what happens if it starts raining midway through a race?


I believe they can heat and put such a smooth finish on screens that rain can not attach to them at all.

Has either of you ever flown a Cessna in the rain? 😜
Water has a really hard job sticking to anything at F1 speeds.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:30 am 
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Is the halo any use in an accident like Massa's?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:07 am 
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I think the Halo only really helps in stopping runaway wheels, imagine a car nose came up over the top and jammed itself between the halo and the driver... At least this new screen will alter the course of a tyre in most cases without any of the risks of the halo. I think we should just leave the cars as they are, open wheel and open cockpit racing, F1 is extremely safe compared to say Motorbike racing where people die every year, it's safer than Rallying, it's safer than Drag Racing.

The only deaths we had regarding F1 since Senna have been as a result of poor track safety, if we want to improve safety then we can achieve more in other areas that don't include spoiling the foundations of the sport.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:18 am 
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Geez, just cover it all already. Even though I'd be long dead, I salivate at the possibility of F1 becoming like F-Zero in a couple millennia. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:15 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm assuming this is just 1 of the options.

How would it be beneficial in this scenario:

Image
Source - http://www.telegraph.co.uk



i'd forgotten just how horrible those noses were, thanks for the reminder


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:42 am 
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flyboy10 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Biffa wrote:
And what happens if it starts raining midway through a race?


I believe they can heat and put such a smooth finish on screens that rain can not attach to them at all.

Has either of you ever flown a Cessna in the rain? 😜
Water has a really hard job sticking to anything at F1 speeds.


Just observations, because I have not, but, is the cessna flying around in loops following other planes burning 5ltr of oil per race and shredding tyres and tarmac? How much of the clearing effect is the "air" from the propeller?

Not picking, as I ride bikes and there is no wiper on the helmet but it usually works, so I see what you mean but I have to keep a chamois tucked in the back of my glove cuff cos it is far, far worse in traffic. Just the rooster tail from the car infront is like having a hose pipe on it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:38 pm 
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moby wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
moby wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'm assuming this is just 1 of the options.

How would it be beneficial in this scenario:

Image
Source - http://www.telegraph.co.uk



It would have kept the Lotus from sliding across the front of Alonso's head.

If it didn't break on contact, that is.



That said, I'd rather have a closed canopy if there HAS to be anything there at all, but I'd actually rather keep it open cockpit and let the drivers decide if they are willing to accept the risks, like they have always done.


OR, it would have knocked the wheel or bargeboard off which would have folded back into his face :twisted:


True. That's why I say "All or nothing".



I am beginning to be swayed to the enclosed point of view now that I have seen the options being presented. We can only see a helmet anyway and a cam inside the cab would give better views of him anyway.


I'll be all for it if it looks like this:

Image

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:14 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Biffa wrote:
And what happens if it starts raining midway through a race?


I believe they can heat and put such a smooth finish on screens that rain can not attach to them at all.

Has either of you ever flown a Cessna in the rain? 😜
Water has a really hard job sticking to anything at F1 speeds.


I think Rain-X is lobbying pretty hard for this concept.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:05 pm 
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I'm all for what Renault have proposed in their 2027 mock up, which is similar to the McLarens posted above.

I didn't even notice the cockpit protection at first on the concept.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:49 am 
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This wont be the final solution surely?

Unlike the halo, this wont protect the driver from the bouncing tyre which came tethered and has possibility of bouncing right on the driver's head.
It has to be modified version of halo or a completely closed (or at least enough to not let the tyre though the gap at top) canopy with quick release in case of driver needing to get out of the car.

Material is not an issue. We already have strong material that can take tremendous impact loads thanks to its uses in defense sector for decades


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:39 am 
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I still don't much see the point of these half-measures, all of which are not particularly aesthetically pleasing and dubiously effective. I don't see anything wrong with a full cockpit, which would certainly be effective and would (at least in my opinion) also look a lot better. If not that, then at this point it seems one might as well roll a die to choose between the various proposed solutions. None of them seem much more effective than the other.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:29 am 
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Remmirath wrote:
I still don't much see the point of these half-measures, all of which are not particularly aesthetically pleasing and dubiously effective. I don't see anything wrong with a full cockpit, which would certainly be effective and would (at least in my opinion) also look a lot better. If not that, then at this point it seems one might as well roll a die to choose between the various proposed solutions. None of them seem much more effective than the other.



As I said above, I have moved from keep open cockpits to OK, if its that rubbish or closed lets go to closed, but there are many problems with closed. The main being visibility and driver egress.

It is probably possible to use blowing of some sort to keep the canopy clean and clear, but if the car is not the right way up, or even the right way up with a car on top, it is going to take time and equipment to get the driver out. There is currently a reg that the driver has to get out unaided in 5(?) seconds. It is where the detachable steering wheel originated, are they going to dump that?

I don't think Niki would be happy with that


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:07 am 
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Does it not seem rather 'backwards' to cover the cockpit but leave the wheels open? Open wheels are probably the biggest cause of danger, they provide a launch ramp, they fly off. I'm not saying I want closed wheels, just that isn't this problem being approached from the pickle end? (Okay, yes I get Massa could have been killed by a spring, but that was a freak accident unlikely to occur again).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:43 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Does it not seem rather 'backwards' to cover the cockpit but leave the wheels open? Open wheels are probably the biggest cause of danger, they provide a launch ramp, they fly off. I'm not saying I want closed wheels, just that isn't this problem being approached from the pickle end? (Okay, yes I get Massa could have been killed by a spring, but that was a freak accident unlikely to occur again).


And what would we have thought the chances of it happening the first time were.

It makes perfect sense to cover the cockpit because that mitigates the risk of anything entering the drivers head area (Wheels, springs, nose cones, entire cars etc.)

You cover the wheels, you reduce the chance 1 hazard striking the driver. You cover the cockpit, you reduce the chance of anything striking the driver.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:55 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Does it not seem rather 'backwards' to cover the cockpit but leave the wheels open? Open wheels are probably the biggest cause of danger, they provide a launch ramp, they fly off. I'm not saying I want closed wheels, just that isn't this problem being approached from the pickle end? (Okay, yes I get Massa could have been killed by a spring, but that was a freak accident unlikely to occur again).


Its not just the spring but any debris on the track can be dangerous to driver. Helmets wont protect driver from impact forces. Those forces do and will get transferred to the head. So items does not need to penetrate the helmet to cause the damage. Just impact will be enough. That alone is worth considering cockpit protection where there is a barrier between the driver and flying debris.

Closed canopy made up of durable acrylic can and will protect driver from most debris including rogue tyre or spring. Those are strong enough to even withstand partial weigh of the car if we have Alonso - Grosjean kind of situation.

Open wheel is what differentiates formula one from sport cars. That needs to stay. Even there they can consider Indy type solution. Also closed wheels dont eliminate all rogue tyre accidents. We see tyres go loose and rogue all the time after crash in sport cars.

But canopy or any other effective head protection is absolute priority. There cant be any excuse not to have it asap. Its not about 1 freak accident. We have lost multiple lives even in modern era to head impact injuries. We have 1 serious injury, one near miss, one death in F1 in recent times. Multiple deaths in other open cockpit racing in lower series due to head trauma. If it can happen in Formula Two and Indy, it can happen in any open cockpit class including F1.


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