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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
TheBlackFlag wrote:
That anyone would think this is anything but Honda's fault is beyond me. They are worse than an embarrassment. The rest is splitting hairs about how a driver or the team should be reacting to yet another Honda failure that precludes a car from even starting the race.


I will say I agree, but not all the blame I think belongs to them. I do not know the accuracy of the onboard telemetry we see on TV but. The honda engine seems to have about 1,000RPM limit above all others, , they are shifting at 12K where Ferrari and Merc were shifting at 11K. Aceleration also seems to be on par, it is in top speed were I saw some difference but again not much and it could have been afected by gearing. I did see a very unstable chassis, sliding all over, maybe they are running low downforce to compensate, but then again Alonso said the chassis was working good. This has me confused I must admit.

I think Honda is getting a lot of undeserving bad publicity or are being used as scape goat to other problems. Yes they have issues they must correct but I will try to remain objective, cant beleive this company are this lost by their own doing, maybe that chassis is not as good as they try to sell it. Getting propper lap info from one car to the other will be great


I don't know what onboards you watched but there are videos of all Alonso's Q laps on You Tube and the car looks great. They're still missing some performance to the top 2 of course though. You can argue the car isn't being pushed to it's limits though so underlying problems may surface when they add more power. They were also the only other team to spot the loophole with the side pods though they went a different way to Ferrari.

Acceleration is certainly not on par. Alonso went from +3kph at the exit of turn 10 in China to -11kph behind Lewis's Mercedes by Turn 11.

Image
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ap.svg.png

As you can see a 14kph turnaround on a straight that small is massive.

Also in China the Renault engine in Max's Red Bull lost two cylinders in Q1 but was still matching Honda's speeds in the traps in every sector.


The vibrations from the PU are effecting the gearshifts currently but their was supposed to be some new mapping to ease that a little. The ERS system in general has been unreliable with specifically the Mgu-H failing consistently and the fuel system is failing regularly too. The driveability was also said to be poor with the divers unable to get on the throttle out of corners as early as others which is visible on videos.

Positives are they lowered the CoG significantly and reduced weight but without knowing specifics of starting weight it's hard to know if that was wise or not. Both Mercedes and Ferrari increased weight for this year to deal with the added stresses.

Good, clear explanation that even a technological illiterate like me can understand, thanks!
:thumbup:


Woooaa Herb Tarlik take it easy, I went by TV telemetry which I dont know how accurate ii is, and compared laps by Vettel, Hamilton and Stoff in Russia, breathe bro!!

Black Flag - I understand perfectly your observations and analysis, now, my point being that the ICE seems to be working, I know they mentioned that they are not getting the results they wanted as far as combustion but if you deconstruct and concentrate on the ICE it seems to be good, its the other stuff that has proven problematic. If they are in fact able to push the unit to 12K rpms, when other are at 10.5K to 11K RPMs, in spite all the problems as you mentioned, that means they are potentially generating good power from the ICE alone. If they sort out they other stuff this could be a very fast package.

My observation on the chassis could be as a result of a bit of overdriving trying to compensate, low downforce for the same reason. I will reserve judgement on the chassis until they are able to really put some load thru it when the Whole Power Unit get sorted. And I also dont pay much attention to Alonso's rants, he is just playing his games to thr benefit of Alonso


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:20 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
TheBlackFlag wrote:
That anyone would think this is anything but Honda's fault is beyond me. They are worse than an embarrassment. The rest is splitting hairs about how a driver or the team should be reacting to yet another Honda failure that precludes a car from even starting the race.


I will say I agree, but not all the blame I think belongs to them. I do not know the accuracy of the onboard telemetry we see on TV but. The honda engine seems to have about 1,000RPM limit above all others, , they are shifting at 12K where Ferrari and Merc were shifting at 11K. Aceleration also seems to be on par, it is in top speed were I saw some difference but again not much and it could have been afected by gearing. I did see a very unstable chassis, sliding all over, maybe they are running low downforce to compensate, but then again Alonso said the chassis was working good. This has me confused I must admit.

I think Honda is getting a lot of undeserving bad publicity or are being used as scape goat to other problems. Yes they have issues they must correct but I will try to remain objective, cant beleive this company are this lost by their own doing, maybe that chassis is not as good as they try to sell it. Getting propper lap info from one car to the other will be great


I don't know what onboards you watched but there are videos of all Alonso's Q laps on You Tube and the car looks great. They're still missing some performance to the top 2 of course though. You can argue the car isn't being pushed to it's limits though so underlying problems may surface when they add more power. They were also the only other team to spot the loophole with the side pods though they went a different way to Ferrari.

Acceleration is certainly not on par. Alonso went from +3kph at the exit of turn 10 in China to -11kph behind Lewis's Mercedes by Turn 11.

Image
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ap.svg.png

As you can see a 14kph turnaround on a straight that small is massive.

Also in China the Renault engine in Max's Red Bull lost two cylinders in Q1 but was still matching Honda's speeds in the traps in every sector.


The vibrations from the PU are effecting the gearshifts currently but their was supposed to be some new mapping to ease that a little. The ERS system in general has been unreliable with specifically the Mgu-H failing consistently and the fuel system is failing regularly too. The driveability was also said to be poor with the divers unable to get on the throttle out of corners as early as others which is visible on videos.

Positives are they lowered the CoG significantly and reduced weight but without knowing specifics of starting weight it's hard to know if that was wise or not. Both Mercedes and Ferrari increased weight for this year to deal with the added stresses.

Good, clear explanation that even a technological illiterate like me can understand, thanks!
:thumbup:


Woooaa Herb Tarlik take it easy, I went by TV telemetry which I dont know how accurate ii is, and compared laps by Vettel, Hamilton and Stoff in Russia, breathe bro!!

Black Flag - I understand perfectly your observations and analysis, now, my point being that the ICE seems to be working, I know they mentioned that they are not getting the results they wanted as far as combustion but if you deconstruct and concentrate on the ICE it seems to be good, its the other stuff that has proven problematic. If they are in fact able to push the unit to 12K rpms, when other are at 10.5K to 11K RPMs, in spite all the problems as you mentioned, that means they are potentially generating good power from the ICE alone. If they sort out they other stuff this could be a very fast package.

My observation on the chassis could be as a result of a bit of overdriving trying to compensate, low downforce for the same reason. I will reserve judgement on the chassis until they are able to really put some load thru it when the Whole Power Unit get sorted. And I also dont pay much attention to Alonso's rants, he is just playing his games to thr benefit of Alonso


Sorry for quoting my myself here

I think I found the video where the information was sourced. You Tube Video - Exactly How Slow is the 2017 McLaren-Honda F1? Alonso & Hamilton Lap, I paused the video at 6:31 and just looked at it for a while.

I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:52 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.

Okay, I'll start.

Firstly: based purely on a speed graph, it is impossible to separate Alonso's driving from the car. There is no way to tell if speed lost through a corner or in a braking zone is down to the driver or the chassis. Therefore, I don't see how you can say Alonso 'butchered' the lap compared to Hamilton, or that he was 'destroyed' by Hamilton in terms of driving.

Secondly, Alonso is needing to drive at - or indeed over - the limit to haul his car as far up the order as he can. Hamilton doesn't need to, so of course he won't be overdriving the car and missing braking zones.

Finally, I highly doubt we'd be calling for anyone to be sacked just because they couldn't make a McLaren look as fast as a Mercedes. If we did, I think that would be cause to question our collective sanity. What were you expecting when you compared the speed traces of the second-worst car and the equal-best? Of course the Mercedes was going to be quicker!

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:45 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I will say I agree, but not all the blame I think belongs to them. I do not know the accuracy of the onboard telemetry we see on TV but. The honda engine seems to have about 1,000RPM limit above all others, , they are shifting at 12K where Ferrari and Merc were shifting at 11K. Aceleration also seems to be on par, it is in top speed were I saw some difference but again not much and it could have been afected by gearing. I did see a very unstable chassis, sliding all over, maybe they are running low downforce to compensate, but then again Alonso said the chassis was working good. This has me confused I must admit.

I think Honda is getting a lot of undeserving bad publicity or are being used as scape goat to other problems. Yes they have issues they must correct but I will try to remain objective, cant beleive this company are this lost by their own doing, maybe that chassis is not as good as they try to sell it. Getting propper lap info from one car to the other will be great


I don't know what onboards you watched but there are videos of all Alonso's Q laps on You Tube and the car looks great. They're still missing some performance to the top 2 of course though. You can argue the car isn't being pushed to it's limits though so underlying problems may surface when they add more power. They were also the only other team to spot the loophole with the side pods though they went a different way to Ferrari.

Acceleration is certainly not on par. Alonso went from +3kph at the exit of turn 10 in China to -11kph behind Lewis's Mercedes by Turn 11.

Image
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ap.svg.png

As you can see a 14kph turnaround on a straight that small is massive.

Also in China the Renault engine in Max's Red Bull lost two cylinders in Q1 but was still matching Honda's speeds in the traps in every sector.


The vibrations from the PU are effecting the gearshifts currently but their was supposed to be some new mapping to ease that a little. The ERS system in general has been unreliable with specifically the Mgu-H failing consistently and the fuel system is failing regularly too. The driveability was also said to be poor with the divers unable to get on the throttle out of corners as early as others which is visible on videos.

Positives are they lowered the CoG significantly and reduced weight but without knowing specifics of starting weight it's hard to know if that was wise or not. Both Mercedes and Ferrari increased weight for this year to deal with the added stresses.

Good, clear explanation that even a technological illiterate like me can understand, thanks!
:thumbup:


Woooaa Herb Tarlik take it easy, I went by TV telemetry which I dont know how accurate ii is, and compared laps by Vettel, Hamilton and Stoff in Russia, breathe bro!!

Black Flag - I understand perfectly your observations and analysis, now, my point being that the ICE seems to be working, I know they mentioned that they are not getting the results they wanted as far as combustion but if you deconstruct and concentrate on the ICE it seems to be good, its the other stuff that has proven problematic. If they are in fact able to push the unit to 12K rpms, when other are at 10.5K to 11K RPMs, in spite all the problems as you mentioned, that means they are potentially generating good power from the ICE alone. If they sort out they other stuff this could be a very fast package.

My observation on the chassis could be as a result of a bit of overdriving trying to compensate, low downforce for the same reason. I will reserve judgement on the chassis until they are able to really put some load thru it when the Whole Power Unit get sorted. And I also dont pay much attention to Alonso's rants, he is just playing his games to thr benefit of Alonso


Sorry for quoting my myself here

I think I found the video where the information was sourced. You Tube Video - Exactly How Slow is the 2017 McLaren-Honda F1? Alonso & Hamilton Lap, I paused the video at 6:31 and just looked at it for a while.

I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.

I don't know about flaming but given that even Honda have admitted their PU is terrible isn't it much more likely that your interpretation of the data is way off?

I mean, come on, you don't see a struggling PU where everybody up and down the pitlane does? :?


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:44 am 
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Exediron wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.

Okay, I'll start.

Firstly: based purely on a speed graph, it is impossible to separate Alonso's driving from the car. There is no way to tell if speed lost through a corner or in a braking zone is down to the driver or the chassis. Therefore, I don't see how you can say Alonso 'butchered' the lap compared to Hamilton, or that he was 'destroyed' by Hamilton in terms of driving.

Secondly, Alonso is needing to drive at - or indeed over - the limit to haul his car as far up the order as he can. Hamilton doesn't need to, so of course he won't be overdriving the car and missing braking zones.

Finally, I highly doubt we'd be calling for anyone to be sacked just because they couldn't make a McLaren look as fast as a Mercedes. If we did, I think that would be cause to question our collective sanity. What were you expecting when you compared the speed traces of the second-worst car and the equal-best? Of course the Mercedes was going to be quicker!


On your first point you say there is no way to tell if speed lost is due to driver or chassis, then is either or. Which bring us to your second point, he made mistakes on this lap, these are both qualy laps, both cars should be on the limit, Hamilton did a better job, maybe he is in a beter chassis, maybe his lap was mistake free, yes the Honda in down, but it was made to look worse on this lap by non engine related issues. The last point made was more about how some think this guy walks on water behind the wheel, I dont think he is THAT good but must admit maybe my bias is showing his ugly face.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:15 am 
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Exediron wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.

Okay, I'll start.

Firstly: based purely on a speed graph, it is impossible to separate Alonso's driving from the car. There is no way to tell if speed lost through a corner or in a braking zone is down to the driver or the chassis. Therefore, I don't see how you can say Alonso 'butchered' the lap compared to Hamilton, or that he was 'destroyed' by Hamilton in terms of driving.

Secondly, Alonso is needing to drive at - or indeed over - the limit to haul his car as far up the order as he can. Hamilton doesn't need to, so of course he won't be overdriving the car and missing braking zones.

Finally, I highly doubt we'd be calling for anyone to be sacked just because they couldn't make a McLaren look as fast as a Mercedes. If we did, I think that would be cause to question our collective sanity. What were you expecting when you compared the speed traces of the second-worst car and the equal-best? Of course the Mercedes was going to be quicker!


I disagree here, do you think that Merc/Ferrari are first by just cruising? Hamilton doesn't need to haul his car as far up the order as possible when fighting with his team mate and the Ferraris? Did Bottas flatspotted his tyres on Sunday because he was taking it easy? Pretty much everyone drives to their limit.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:32 am 
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I think another key point being missed, maybe their chassis isn't good because their PU isn't good? They're needing to shed drag items just to not be completely embarrassed on the straights which then hinders everything else. One of the Merc's advantages in recent years is they could tag on downforce and still out-run everyone, Honda are likely at the opposite end of that scale.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Back on topic:





8O :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Alonso will be taking to the track this morning in his Rookie test. No matter where they come from, all drivers must pass this mandatory test. Rookie orientation practice involves 10 laps at 205-210mph, 15 laps at 210-215mph, and 15 laps over 215mph.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Thanks Blinky, wasn't aware of this test.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:01 pm 
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That's what the McLaren F1 livery should be.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Quote:
Beyond 2017, however, Alonso's future is wide open. He is said to have already had talks with Renault, but the 'big two' in F1 are Ferrari and Mercedes.

Lauda doubts that either of them are options for the 35-year-old.

"He left a lot of trouble with his teams when he left," he said. "I don't think Ferrari wants to have him again. He left with a contract. The same thing happened with us (McLaren-Mercedes).

"[Mercedes] have drivers who do their job, so if we win with [Lewis] Hamilton and [Valtteri] Bottas, we don't need a replacement."

Nonetheless, Lauda said that Alonso's actual talent is beyond dispute.

"He is fast, aggressive, in this way he is the best. But unfortunately, drivers sometimes cannot prove they are the best by the decisions they make, and Alonso has made many mistakes.

"He left Ferrari very early and decided to go to McLaren, but the problem with Honda's engine development was already known. Now he's disappointed, but going to McLaren was his decision."

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/m ... 97239.html

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Live coverage of his test starting in about 25 minutes here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXh9uxthFnk


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Quote:
Beyond 2017, however, Alonso's future is wide open. He is said to have already had talks with Renault, but the 'big two' in F1 are Ferrari and Mercedes.

Lauda doubts that either of them are options for the 35-year-old.

"He left a lot of trouble with his teams when he left," he said. "I don't think Ferrari wants to have him again. He left with a contract. The same thing happened with us (McLaren-Mercedes).

"[Mercedes] have drivers who do their job, so if we win with [Lewis] Hamilton and [Valtteri] Bottas, we don't need a replacement."

Nonetheless, Lauda said that Alonso's actual talent is beyond dispute.

"He is fast, aggressive, in this way he is the best. But unfortunately, drivers sometimes cannot prove they are the best by the decisions they make, and Alonso has made many mistakes.

"He left Ferrari very early and decided to go to McLaren, but the problem with Honda's engine development was already known. Now he's disappointed, but going to McLaren was his decision."

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/m ... 97239.html

Lauda has a strange definition of "very early"

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:58 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:

Sorry for quoting my myself here

I think I found the video where the information was sourced. You Tube Video - Exactly How Slow is the 2017 McLaren-Honda F1? Alonso & Hamilton Lap, I paused the video at 6:31 and just looked at it for a while.

I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.


I havent been a believer in mclarens chassis for a while but this year i have to admit it is impossible to tell. Hondas power unit has problems with power, driveability, vibrations, and of course reliability. This year's engine is so bad that its impossible for any chassis to make a difference. When sauber will run hopefully much improved honda power units next year we will be able to know for sure if mclaren has indeed been hiding behind honda the last 3 years.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:06 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:

Sorry for quoting my myself here

I think I found the video where the information was sourced. You Tube Video - Exactly How Slow is the 2017 McLaren-Honda F1? Alonso & Hamilton Lap, I paused the video at 6:31 and just looked at it for a while.

I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.


I havent been a believer in mclarens chassis for a while but this year i have to admit it is impossible to tell. Hondas power unit has problems with power, driveability, vibrations, and of course reliability. This year's engine is so bad that its impossible for any chassis to make a difference. When sauber will run hopefully much improved honda power units next year we will be able to know for sure if mclaren has indeed been hiding behind honda the last 3 years.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:07 pm 
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owenmahamilton wrote:
Live coverage of his test starting in about 25 minutes here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXh9uxthFnk


Thanks for the link, seems Marco is now checking the set-up........


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
I think another key point being missed, maybe their chassis isn't good because their PU isn't good? They're needing to shed drag items just to not be completely embarrassed on the straights which then hinders everything else. One of the Merc's advantages in recent years is they could tag on downforce and still out-run everyone, Honda are likely at the opposite end of that scale.


EXACTLY what I have been saying. This point is 100% completely valid yet those who fault the chassis simply wont respond to it. Conclusive proof that rational thought is not being used. That and the fact that Honda and Alonso himself say the car is simply lacking in power, dramatically so.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
I think another key point being missed, maybe their chassis isn't good because their PU isn't good? They're needing to shed drag items just to not be completely embarrassed on the straights which then hinders everything else. One of the Merc's advantages in recent years is they could tag on downforce and still out-run everyone, Honda are likely at the opposite end of that scale.


EXACTLY what I have been saying. This point is 100% completely valid yet those who fault the chassis simply wont respond to it. Conclusive proof that rational thought is not being used. That and the fact that Honda and Alonso himself say the car is simply lacking in power, dramatically so.


I have no issues responding to it, and I will also say that it is a good point........but........we are talking about Alonso here, the guy that walks in water, the guy that day in and day out says his last lap was his best lap ever, when clearly it is not. The issue here to me is that the engine wont last, not that is lacking so much power, look at what RB can do with an engine that lacks power, having a good chassis.

I will repeat myself, I do beleive Honda is a factor on the perdormance, but the chassis is also a problem and maybe the combination of both is too much for Alonso, with his experience he should be able, as beleived by so many, to addapt and prevent such clear mistakes.

They are all adding to the underperformance, how much each is adding, I am nor sure. Will not be surprised if the engine is not the biggest item to blame

Good to aee him at Indy


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:25 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
When sauber will run hopefully much improved honda power units next year we will be able to know for sure if mclaren has indeed been hiding behind honda the last 3 years.


No, you will know for sure whether the 2018 McLaren chassis is anything good or not.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:19 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:

I will say I agree, but not all the blame I think belongs to them. I do not know the accuracy of the onboard telemetry we see on TV but. The honda engine seems to have about 1,000RPM limit above all others, , they are shifting at 12K where Ferrari and Merc were shifting at 11K. Aceleration also seems to be on par, it is in top speed were I saw some difference but again not much and it could have been afected by gearing. I did see a very unstable chassis, sliding all over, maybe they are running low downforce to compensate, but then again Alonso said the chassis was working good. This has me confused I must admit.

I think Honda is getting a lot of undeserving bad publicity or are being used as scape goat to other problems. Yes they have issues they must correct but I will try to remain objective, cant beleive this company are this lost by their own doing, maybe that chassis is not as good as they try to sell it. Getting propper lap info from one car to the other will be great


I don't know what onboards you watched but there are videos of all Alonso's Q laps on You Tube and the car looks great. They're still missing some performance to the top 2 of course though. You can argue the car isn't being pushed to it's limits though so underlying problems may surface when they add more power. They were also the only other team to spot the loophole with the side pods though they went a different way to Ferrari.

Acceleration is certainly not on par. Alonso went from +3kph at the exit of turn 10 in China to -11kph behind Lewis's Mercedes by Turn 11.

Image
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ap.svg.png

As you can see a 14kph turnaround on a straight that small is massive.

Also in China the Renault engine in Max's Red Bull lost two cylinders in Q1 but was still matching Honda's speeds in the traps in every sector.


The vibrations from the PU are effecting the gearshifts currently but their was supposed to be some new mapping to ease that a little. The ERS system in general has been unreliable with specifically the Mgu-H failing consistently and the fuel system is failing regularly too. The driveability was also said to be poor with the divers unable to get on the throttle out of corners as early as others which is visible on videos.

Positives are they lowered the CoG significantly and reduced weight but without knowing specifics of starting weight it's hard to know if that was wise or not. Both Mercedes and Ferrari increased weight for this year to deal with the added stresses.

Good, clear explanation that even a technological illiterate like me can understand, thanks!
:thumbup:


Woooaa Herb Tarlik take it easy, I went by TV telemetry which I dont know how accurate ii is, and compared laps by Vettel, Hamilton and Stoff in Russia, breathe bro!!

Black Flag - I understand perfectly your observations and analysis, now, my point being that the ICE seems to be working, I know they mentioned that they are not getting the results they wanted as far as combustion but if you deconstruct and concentrate on the ICE it seems to be good, its the other stuff that has proven problematic. If they are in fact able to push the unit to 12K rpms, when other are at 10.5K to 11K RPMs, in spite all the problems as you mentioned, that means they are potentially generating good power from the ICE alone. If they sort out they other stuff this could be a very fast package.

My observation on the chassis could be as a result of a bit of overdriving trying to compensate, low downforce for the same reason. I will reserve judgement on the chassis until they are able to really put some load thru it when the Whole Power Unit get sorted. And I also dont pay much attention to Alonso's rants, he is just playing his games to thr benefit of Alonso


Sorry for quoting my myself here

I think I found the video where the information was sourced. You Tube Video - Exactly How Slow is the 2017 McLaren-Honda F1? Alonso & Hamilton Lap, I paused the video at 6:31 and just looked at it for a while.

I know I will get flamed but I just don't see a struggling engine, I see a struggling chassis and a dare I say it, a struggling driver. Alonso butchered this lap compared to Hamilton, and this is but a snapshot of China. Lets begin at T10 where Alonso is 3Kph up on Hamilton at the Apex, looking at the graph to me it looks like Hamilton is just better set up for the exit, then acceleration is about equal, the Merc handled the corner better and Hamilton is doing a better job, but the McLaren deficit was created at the beginning of the straight and it kept it there, the damage was done at corner exit.

Then Alonso seems hesitant at brake point for T11, this is not engine related, this is pure braking and chassis dynamics, he overshot it, tried to come back for T12 but was greeted by what it seems massive understeer that took him too far out so he was on power later, this is a struggling driver, he simply messed it up there, T11 is a compromise corner, you sacrifice T11 for the benefit of T12 and the long straight, again the acceleration curves are similar, but the driver error at T11 compromised the long straight, when DRS opens, both cars accelerate at the same rate, just before DRS, the Honda seems to be loosing some ground, but Hamilton is on 8th gear when Alonso is still in 7th high in the RPM's, maybe the engine is on the limit of the power band, he only shifts up when he gets DRS, Hamilton is just waiting on 8th for the DRS to open, still the Honda in sort of coming back on the Merc, don't forget T11 and we are still paying for that mistake, Alonso later on the brakes for T14 and again he comes off the brakes later, he just killed the short jump to T16 but in terms of acceleration they are about even.

Where is the horrible PU here?? I just have trouble seeing it! I am sorry but Alonso was destroyed by Hamilton in terms of driving on this lap. If Alonso was in a Merc he will not beat Hamilton. Any other driver butchers a lap like he just did and we are calling for him to be sacked, but we are talking about Alonso here. Honda has reliability problems, they do not have a big power problem, I see a chassis problem and maybe and just maybe they have a driver problem also.

Let the flaming begin.


Here the Q lap he butchered in a terrible chassis and that doesn't have any problems with power. The bit he specifically butchers starts at .59.



Please tell me how he messed up the exit of T10?. That 14kph swing is measured before the braking point for T11 as well by the way so it's entirely under acceleration. The guy who did the speed traces does mention an error from Alonso on the exit of T12 though as he doesn't get on the throttle as early as Lewis (This could easily just be driveability concerns around the Honda dumping it's power in corner like T12 though*).

Here's the vid with the traces, sorry I thought I had posted it with the track layout but didn't.





There's a good reason he's especially frustrated this year as he knows how good a car they've given him. Or base car should I say because it still does lack to the top 2 but that could easily just be down to it being trimmed out.

* There's been lots of talk of having to change gear strangley to work around the vibrations issue and the drivers not being able to get on the throttle conventionally because of power delivery

Here's a snippet after the news they were bringing new maps to try and help that at Sochi.

From Ben Anderson on Autosport live:

Quote


The McLaren-Honda sounds much improved compared to Bahrain, but some aggressive shortshifting is still required to keep the rear of the car on check under acceleration.

Quote


Looks as though there has been some genuine progress with the mapping of the Honda engine. Both McLarens are driving off this corner comparatively conventionally and are no longer gear shifting in odd places. It doesn't sound perfect, but much much better


Anyway you are genuinely the first person I've seen try to say the Honda has no power issues. I could be here all day posting reports of the power shortage and that Honda haven't even hit their 2016 levels of power yet never mind getting near anyone else.

When I've got more time I'll post the other Q vids. Every one of them are good, Sochi was said to be especially good from a car and driver standpoint.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Found this when looking for those video's. I've changed my mind about him stopping where he did in Sochi deliberately.



Sounding like the lump had fallen out the bloody chassis. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Found this when looking for those video's. I've changed my mind about him stopping where he did in Sochi deliberately.



Sounding like the lump had fallen out the bloody chassis. :lol:

Ouch, that sounds nasty! 8O

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:07 pm 
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http://www.autosport.com/premium/featur ... 1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:36 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Jesus guys, I got you doing some research, that's good lets keep this going!

First lets congratulate Alonso on an impressive first day, he seems in good spirits even though two birds paid the ultimate price.

To the matter at hand as apparently some of my comments have been taken to extremes. I too was on the bandwagon of "Get Honda out of F1 now", but then I decided to stop, step back and look at this in a more objective way. What has become evident to me (and please underline the "me" part) is:

1. Honda does have power issue, but I don't feel based on some, and as I said, potentially unreliable onboards, that the power deficit is that great when the PU, the whole Power Unit is working at its best. Which makes sense as to why the Japanese guys were confident in their package at first, they must have seen the power generated on the engine dyno, if not then why make claims. Ultimate speed on straights is a combination of various things, power, Drag, gearing, RPM ceiling. I will say "hey the engine does not have power" if it stops building RPM's, hits the aerodynamic wall that power can not overcome, but on some onboards, the engine climbs to 11K 12K RPM's as other do!! The Kph's are not there, maybe due to other factors. Is this car geared too tall? Did Honda calculated gear ratios? Again I agree is lacking power, I do not agree they are off by what is being claimed.

2. They do have major reliability problems that are causing them to run detuned, but the lack of power perceived is as a consequence of the lack of reliability of components not related directly to the ICE, this engine has not had a catastrophic mechanical failure that I remember, they change it usually because something failed that might have compromise it, and when running, seems to be as we say in Spanish racing terms "corriendo limpio" (running clean as in accelerating without missteps). That big thump heard on the video to me it sounded to a gearbox problem, it went to neutral, engine died, and gearbox engaged again and engine came to life. Like a manual car being push started. Is this a Honda Gearbox? If not who made it and who made the software that controls it? Who is responsible for the integration of everything, Honda? Are they using McLaren Software and Hardware?

3. Looking at the onboards again and the speed trace, considering the above, it is obvious to me aided by my very limited knowledge and equally small racing experience that we have a chassis problem, a driver that is fighting the car to get as much as he can out of it and the chassis is not there. I also said that I will reserve judgment on the chassis until later, let see as someone already mentioned how Sauber does, or Honda solves their issues and the engine stops being the focus. If we are lacking power and running detuned this chassis should be planted. If software is causing non linear acceleration or deceleration, braking problems, is this Honda's deal or McLaren?

After all that nonsense written, I am unwilling to, and will stop blaming Honda for everything wrong with that team. I am afraid McLaren form is not all engine related, Honda is somewhat being used as cannon fodder by many and final conclusions are being made. All I am saying is that there is more to this than engine only, and I am not afraid to look at driver performance either, even if the driver is the greatest one ever to climb into an F1 car.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:57 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Below 2015 power levels?

Could it be that they have to run the engine at such a conservative mode that it is making actually less than the 2015 unit?

Because if that is not the case then they really have no idea what they are doing. Jeez...


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:19 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Jesus guys, I got you doing some research, that's good lets keep this going!

First lets congratulate Alonso on an impressive first day, he seems in good spirits even though two birds paid the ultimate price.

To the matter at hand as apparently some of my comments have been taken to extremes. I too was on the bandwagon of "Get Honda out of F1 now", but then I decided to stop, step back and look at this in a more objective way. What has become evident to me (and please underline the "me" part) is:

1. Honda does have power issue, but I don't feel based on some, and as I said, potentially unreliable onboards, that the power deficit is that great when the PU, the whole Power Unit is working at its best. Which makes sense as to why the Japanese guys were confident in their package at first, they must have seen the power generated on the engine dyno, if not then why make claims. Ultimate speed on straights is a combination of various things, power, Drag, gearing, RPM ceiling. I will say "hey the engine does not have power" if it stops building RPM's, hits the aerodynamic wall that power can not overcome, but on some onboards, the engine climbs to 11K 12K RPM's as other do!! The Kph's are not there, maybe due to other factors. Is this car geared too tall? Did Honda calculated gear ratios? Again I agree is lacking power, I do not agree they are off by what is being claimed.

2. They do have major reliability problems that are causing them to run detuned, but the lack of power perceived is as a consequence of the lack of reliability of components not related directly to the ICE, this engine has not had a catastrophic mechanical failure that I remember, they change it usually because something failed that might have compromise it, and when running, seems to be as we say in Spanish racing terms "corriendo limpio" (running clean as in accelerating without missteps). That big thump heard on the video to me it sounded to a gearbox problem, it went to neutral, engine died, and gearbox engaged again and engine came to life. Like a manual car being push started. Is this a Honda Gearbox? If not who made it and who made the software that controls it? Who is responsible for the integration of everything, Honda? Are they using McLaren Software and Hardware?

3. Looking at the onboards again and the speed trace, considering the above, it is obvious to me aided by my very limited knowledge and equally small racing experience that we have a chassis problem, a driver that is fighting the car to get as much as he can out of it and the chassis is not there. I also said that I will reserve judgment on the chassis until later, let see as someone already mentioned how Sauber does, or Honda solves their issues and the engine stops being the focus. If we are lacking power and running detuned this chassis should be planted. If software is causing non linear acceleration or deceleration, braking problems, is this Honda's deal or McLaren?

After all that nonsense written, I am unwilling to, and will stop blaming Honda for everything wrong with that team. I am afraid McLaren form is not all engine related, Honda is somewhat being used as cannon fodder by many and final conclusions are being made. All I am saying is that there is more to this than engine only, and I am not afraid to look at driver performance either, even if the driver is the greatest one ever to climb into an F1 car.


1. It's an ICE problem, specifically the combustion process but there are other issues. They first tested their new solution in a mono-cylinder and the results were said to be good, but when they arranged it in a V6 it not only didn't work but it gave severe vibrations and less power than even their old engine. They admitted in an interview in December that things were severe on the dyno so no, they've never had good results on the dyno. They run higher RPM's because they want to stay above resonance frequency I believe. The severe vibrations are putting a strain on all parts of the transmission.

2. No there's just a fundamental lack of power from their new combustion process. They've said this themselves multiple times as well. There are new piston heads and a re-design of the combustion chamber coming in the next update. It's a McLaren gearbox. The vibrations are not only coming from the combustion process but by the longer connecting shaft in their split turbo. It's a royal pain to get right and it took Mercedes over 12 months to get this working properly when they were developing it before 2014. On one shaft. They also had to re-design the oil tank and have suffered persistent problems with the MGU-H.

3. I've no idea what video you watched to come to that conclusion. The video shows all with regards to the chassis and driver. The 14kph swing on that small straight says it all too. There's no error in exit, he simply took T10 quicker than Lewis could but still ended up 11kph behind before the breaking zone for T11 but you interpret that as he's butchered the lap and there's no difference in acceleration?. Yes the car should be planted at slower speeds and it is. So what's the issue with it?. No offence but your interpretation of the simple speed trace was bad enough but this is silly even after you've watched the video.


I don't want Honda out if F1, I've praised them plenty of times, for example the leap they made in reliability in the second half of last year. Zero failures post Spa. They also ended up at the end of that season with a PU that was in the ballpark of the Ferrari 2015. Both year two models but the Ferrari had TJI,lower CoG and was lighter. But Honda still got in the ballpark thanks to their ERS. That's impressive.

The problem is that design was maxed out so they had to come up with an entirely new concept for this year-for them at least, it's a copy of the Mercedes layout really. They also had to implement their version of TJI.

They targeted end of 2016 Mercedes levels of power but failed to hit Honda's 2016 level(And now rumours about not even hitting 2015). That's the power shortfall plus whatever Mercedes gained in the winter.

It's failed but because of the new layout and no token restrictions they can fix it. We'll see what the fixes do throughout the year.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:29 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Below 2015 power levels?

Could it be that they have to run the engine at such a conservative mode that it is making actually less than the 2015 unit?

Because if that is not the case then they really have no idea what they are doing. Jeez...


It's incredible if true. It could be hugely exaggerated by that Macca employ to apply pressure to Honda to make changes of course. Or it could be effectively less than 2015 if the current gap to the other 2017 models is larger than it was in 2015 if you see what I mean.

Or it could be true. The last ICE was under powered anyway so another V6 with a worse combustion process could easily be under it. But the bit I'm struggling to believe is the ERS side being worse. They didn't have a working one for the entire 2015, they were getting 45% of available power to the crank whereas Mercedes were getting over 90% according to Mark Hughes. That improved significantly over the winter 2015 and into 2016 to the point they said it was on par with the best.

I'd find it bizarre if they managed to fudge that bit up but if they're struggling with that longer shaft and combustion process and it's playing enough havoc with the surrounding MGU's and ES then who knows.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:58 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
I think another key point being missed, maybe their chassis isn't good because their PU isn't good? They're needing to shed drag items just to not be completely embarrassed on the straights which then hinders everything else. One of the Merc's advantages in recent years is they could tag on downforce and still out-run everyone, Honda are likely at the opposite end of that scale.


EXACTLY what I have been saying. This point is 100% completely valid yet those who fault the chassis simply wont respond to it. Conclusive proof that rational thought is not being used. That and the fact that Honda and Alonso himself say the car is simply lacking in power, dramatically so.


I have no issues responding to it, and I will also say that it is a good point........but........we are talking about Alonso here, the guy that walks in water, the guy that day in and day out says his last lap was his best lap ever, when clearly it is not. The issue here to me is that the engine wont last, not that is lacking so much power, look at what RB can do with an engine that lacks power, having a good chassis.

I will repeat myself, I do beleive Honda is a factor on the perdormance, but the chassis is also a problem and maybe the combination of both is too much for Alonso, with his experience he should be able, as beleived by so many, to addapt and prevent such clear mistakes.

They are all adding to the underperformance, how much each is adding, I am nor sure. Will not be surprised if the engine is not the biggest item to blame

Good to aee him at Indy

The Honda and the Renault are not remotely comparable. I actually can't believe you've made that comparison

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Jesus guys, I got you doing some research, that's good lets keep this going!

First lets congratulate Alonso on an impressive first day, he seems in good spirits even though two birds paid the ultimate price.

To the matter at hand as apparently some of my comments have been taken to extremes. I too was on the bandwagon of "Get Honda out of F1 now", but then I decided to stop, step back and look at this in a more objective way. What has become evident to me (and please underline the "me" part) is:

1. Honda does have power issue, but I don't feel based on some, and as I said, potentially unreliable onboards, that the power deficit is that great when the PU, the whole Power Unit is working at its best. Which makes sense as to why the Japanese guys were confident in their package at first, they must have seen the power generated on the engine dyno, if not then why make claims. Ultimate speed on straights is a combination of various things, power, Drag, gearing, RPM ceiling. I will say "hey the engine does not have power" if it stops building RPM's, hits the aerodynamic wall that power can not overcome, but on some onboards, the engine climbs to 11K 12K RPM's as other do!! The Kph's are not there, maybe due to other factors. Is this car geared too tall? Did Honda calculated gear ratios? Again I agree is lacking power, I do not agree they are off by what is being claimed.

2. They do have major reliability problems that are causing them to run detuned, but the lack of power perceived is as a consequence of the lack of reliability of components not related directly to the ICE, this engine has not had a catastrophic mechanical failure that I remember, they change it usually because something failed that might have compromise it, and when running, seems to be as we say in Spanish racing terms "corriendo limpio" (running clean as in accelerating without missteps). That big thump heard on the video to me it sounded to a gearbox problem, it went to neutral, engine died, and gearbox engaged again and engine came to life. Like a manual car being push started. Is this a Honda Gearbox? If not who made it and who made the software that controls it? Who is responsible for the integration of everything, Honda? Are they using McLaren Software and Hardware?

3. Looking at the onboards again and the speed trace, considering the above, it is obvious to me aided by my very limited knowledge and equally small racing experience that we have a chassis problem, a driver that is fighting the car to get as much as he can out of it and the chassis is not there. I also said that I will reserve judgment on the chassis until later, let see as someone already mentioned how Sauber does, or Honda solves their issues and the engine stops being the focus. If we are lacking power and running detuned this chassis should be planted. If software is causing non linear acceleration or deceleration, braking problems, is this Honda's deal or McLaren?

After all that nonsense written, I am unwilling to, and will stop blaming Honda for everything wrong with that team. I am afraid McLaren form is not all engine related, Honda is somewhat being used as cannon fodder by many and final conclusions are being made. All I am saying is that there is more to this than engine only, and I am not afraid to look at driver performance either, even if the driver is the greatest one ever to climb into an F1 car.


1. It's an ICE problem, specifically the combustion process but there are other issues. They first tested their new solution in a mono-cylinder and the results were said to be good, but when they arranged it in a V6 it not only didn't work but it gave severe vibrations and less power than even their old engine. They admitted in an interview in December that things were severe on the dyno so no, they've never had good results on the dyno. They run higher RPM's because they want to stay above resonance frequency I believe. The severe vibrations are putting a strain on all parts of the transmission.

2. No there's just a fundamental lack of power from their new combustion process. They've said this themselves multiple times as well. There are new piston heads and a re-design of the combustion chamber coming in the next update. It's a McLaren gearbox. The vibrations are not only coming from the combustion process but by the longer connecting shaft in their split turbo. It's a royal pain to get right and it took Mercedes over 12 months to get this working properly when they were developing it before 2014. On one shaft. They also had to re-design the oil tank and have suffered persistent problems with the MGU-H.

3. I've no idea what video you watched to come to that conclusion. The video shows all with regards to the chassis and driver. The 14kph swing on that small straight says it all too. There's no error in exit, he simply took T10 quicker than Lewis could but still ended up 11kph behind before the breaking zone for T11 but you interpret that as he's butchered the lap and there's no difference in acceleration?. Yes the car should be planted at slower speeds and it is. So what's the issue with it?. No offence but your interpretation of the simple speed trace was bad enough but this is silly even after you've watched the video.


I don't want Honda out if F1, I've praised them plenty of times, for example the leap they made in reliability in the second half of last year. Zero failures post Spa. They also ended up at the end of that season with a PU that was in the ballpark of the Ferrari 2015. Both year two models but the Ferrari had TJI,lower CoG and was lighter. But Honda still got in the ballpark thanks to their ERS. That's impressive.

The problem is that design was maxed out so they had to come up with an entirely new concept for this year-for them at least, it's a copy of the Mercedes layout really. They also had to implement their version of TJI.

They targeted end of 2016 Mercedes levels of power but failed to hit Honda's 2016 level(And now rumours about not even hitting 2015). That's the power shortfall plus whatever Mercedes gained in the winter.

It's failed but because of the new layout and no token restrictions they can fix it. We'll see what the fixes do throughout the year.


Good points and good info, I did not knew of such details.

I still find interesting that the speed curves are similar, if we move the Honda/Alonso graph up, it will mostly mirror Merc/Hamilton speed trace. There is some power there, so the problem is corner exit then, making the power that they do have useful, it could be as a result of drivability or chassis/mechanical grip.

I stand corrected on some points, thanks for the info. Yes Honda are underperforming, but I think McLaren is too and they are hiding behind Honda and as said making a lot of noise to deviate attention.

This team is in a bad shape looking in from every angle. I want so bad for Honda to sort it out and McLaren to prove me wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 2:44 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
I think another key point being missed, maybe their chassis isn't good because their PU isn't good? They're needing to shed drag items just to not be completely embarrassed on the straights which then hinders everything else. One of the Merc's advantages in recent years is they could tag on downforce and still out-run everyone, Honda are likely at the opposite end of that scale.


EXACTLY what I have been saying. This point is 100% completely valid yet those who fault the chassis simply wont respond to it. Conclusive proof that rational thought is not being used. That and the fact that Honda and Alonso himself say the car is simply lacking in power, dramatically so.


I have no issues responding to it, and I will also say that it is a good point........but........we are talking about Alonso here, the guy that walks in water, the guy that day in and day out says his last lap was his best lap ever, when clearly it is not. The issue here to me is that the engine wont last, not that is lacking so much power, look at what RB can do with an engine that lacks power, having a good chassis.

I will repeat myself, I do beleive Honda is a factor on the perdormance, but the chassis is also a problem and maybe the combination of both is too much for Alonso, with his experience he should be able, as beleived by so many, to addapt and prevent such clear mistakes.

They are all adding to the underperformance, how much each is adding, I am nor sure. Will not be surprised if the engine is not the biggest item to blame

Good to aee him at Indy

The Honda and the Renault are not remotely comparable. I actually can't believe you've made that comparison


Why?? Renault have issues too, they just postponed some upgrades based on reliability!

Renault is in way better shape than Honda and are producing more power, that is clear. But they have in my view a Chassis that is years ahead of the McLaren one, and RB are saying they have chassis upgrades arriving. This is a good study for McLaren, how a team that is not there yet on power and dealing with reliability issues, is still competitive to at least the level of Williams. Yes power for Honda is an issue, I think chassis could do better still.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:50 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Jesus guys, I got you doing some research, that's good lets keep this going!

First lets congratulate Alonso on an impressive first day, he seems in good spirits even though two birds paid the ultimate price.

To the matter at hand as apparently some of my comments have been taken to extremes. I too was on the bandwagon of "Get Honda out of F1 now", but then I decided to stop, step back and look at this in a more objective way. What has become evident to me (and please underline the "me" part) is:

1. Honda does have power issue, but I don't feel based on some, and as I said, potentially unreliable onboards, that the power deficit is that great when the PU, the whole Power Unit is working at its best. Which makes sense as to why the Japanese guys were confident in their package at first, they must have seen the power generated on the engine dyno, if not then why make claims. Ultimate speed on straights is a combination of various things, power, Drag, gearing, RPM ceiling. I will say "hey the engine does not have power" if it stops building RPM's, hits the aerodynamic wall that power can not overcome, but on some onboards, the engine climbs to 11K 12K RPM's as other do!! The Kph's are not there, maybe due to other factors. Is this car geared too tall? Did Honda calculated gear ratios? Again I agree is lacking power, I do not agree they are off by what is being claimed.

2. They do have major reliability problems that are causing them to run detuned, but the lack of power perceived is as a consequence of the lack of reliability of components not related directly to the ICE, this engine has not had a catastrophic mechanical failure that I remember, they change it usually because something failed that might have compromise it, and when running, seems to be as we say in Spanish racing terms "corriendo limpio" (running clean as in accelerating without missteps). That big thump heard on the video to me it sounded to a gearbox problem, it went to neutral, engine died, and gearbox engaged again and engine came to life. Like a manual car being push started. Is this a Honda Gearbox? If not who made it and who made the software that controls it? Who is responsible for the integration of everything, Honda? Are they using McLaren Software and Hardware?

3. Looking at the onboards again and the speed trace, considering the above, it is obvious to me aided by my very limited knowledge and equally small racing experience that we have a chassis problem, a driver that is fighting the car to get as much as he can out of it and the chassis is not there. I also said that I will reserve judgment on the chassis until later, let see as someone already mentioned how Sauber does, or Honda solves their issues and the engine stops being the focus. If we are lacking power and running detuned this chassis should be planted. If software is causing non linear acceleration or deceleration, braking problems, is this Honda's deal or McLaren?

After all that nonsense written, I am unwilling to, and will stop blaming Honda for everything wrong with that team. I am afraid McLaren form is not all engine related, Honda is somewhat being used as cannon fodder by many and final conclusions are being made. All I am saying is that there is more to this than engine only, and I am not afraid to look at driver performance either, even if the driver is the greatest one ever to climb into an F1 car.


1. It's an ICE problem, specifically the combustion process but there are other issues. They first tested their new solution in a mono-cylinder and the results were said to be good, but when they arranged it in a V6 it not only didn't work but it gave severe vibrations and less power than even their old engine. They admitted in an interview in December that things were severe on the dyno so no, they've never had good results on the dyno. They run higher RPM's because they want to stay above resonance frequency I believe. The severe vibrations are putting a strain on all parts of the transmission.

2. No there's just a fundamental lack of power from their new combustion process. They've said this themselves multiple times as well. There are new piston heads and a re-design of the combustion chamber coming in the next update. It's a McLaren gearbox. The vibrations are not only coming from the combustion process but by the longer connecting shaft in their split turbo. It's a royal pain to get right and it took Mercedes over 12 months to get this working properly when they were developing it before 2014. On one shaft. They also had to re-design the oil tank and have suffered persistent problems with the MGU-H.

3. I've no idea what video you watched to come to that conclusion. The video shows all with regards to the chassis and driver. The 14kph swing on that small straight says it all too. There's no error in exit, he simply took T10 quicker than Lewis could but still ended up 11kph behind before the breaking zone for T11 but you interpret that as he's butchered the lap and there's no difference in acceleration?. Yes the car should be planted at slower speeds and it is. So what's the issue with it?. No offence but your interpretation of the simple speed trace was bad enough but this is silly even after you've watched the video.


I don't want Honda out if F1, I've praised them plenty of times, for example the leap they made in reliability in the second half of last year. Zero failures post Spa. They also ended up at the end of that season with a PU that was in the ballpark of the Ferrari 2015. Both year two models but the Ferrari had TJI,lower CoG and was lighter. But Honda still got in the ballpark thanks to their ERS. That's impressive.

The problem is that design was maxed out so they had to come up with an entirely new concept for this year-for them at least, it's a copy of the Mercedes layout really. They also had to implement their version of TJI.

They targeted end of 2016 Mercedes levels of power but failed to hit Honda's 2016 level(And now rumours about not even hitting 2015). That's the power shortfall plus whatever Mercedes gained in the winter.

It's failed but because of the new layout and no token restrictions they can fix it. We'll see what the fixes do throughout the year.


Good points and good info, I did not knew of such details.

I still find interesting that the speed curves are similar, if we move the Honda/Alonso graph up, it will mostly mirror Merc/Hamilton speed trace. There is some power there, so the problem is corner exit then, making the power that they do have useful, it could be as a result of drivability or chassis/mechanical grip.

I stand corrected on some points, thanks for the info. Yes Honda are underperforming, but I think McLaren is too and they are hiding behind Honda and as said making a lot of noise to deviate attention.

This team is in a bad shape looking in from every angle. I want so bad for Honda to sort it out and McLaren to prove me wrong.


No problem. :thumbup:

It won't look like much on a speed trace because in Q the kph gap can be "only" around 10kph which just doesn't look like much on a trace. But it's 10kph(Or whatever) everywhere with worse acceleration and that adds up to seconds off the pace depending on track. 2.5s in Sochi apparently was lost on the straights alone. The race is even worse because of fuel saving.

It's driveability, Honda have said it's the thing the drivers are complaining about the most. Even Monaco will suck if they don't sort it out by then.

I think this and the creative gearshifts is what's killing Stoff personally. You don't need that in your rookie season and you definitely don't need it sitting next to a guy who raced almost the entire Malaysian GP in 2010 with no clutch but was still in the Top 10 and setting fastest laps. He's been driving around issues since his own rookie days in a Minardi, hopefully Stoff learns the same and is set in equally good stead going forward.

McLaren do lack to the top 2 chassis's no doubt(I'm not convinced they are lacking to the struggling RB but they're bringing a B-Spec to Spain so we'll see what happens there)) so it is part of the deficit strictly speaking but you can see from onboards and track side reports it's the best one they've started with since 2012. They're killing everyone but the top 3 in the twisty bits even with the power deficit and driveability, in the hands of Alonso at least. The scrap in Bahrain with Palmer and Kvyat showed a lot, he had far more grip than they did but got killed on the straights.

I think in early 2015 they were maybe hiding behind Honda a bit but since Spain 2015 there's been a steady noticeable increase in chassis performance culminating in this one. And the drivers stopped slagging it off after Spain that year with the exception of Monaco(Q only, it was good in the wet in the race) and Suzuka 2016 from both and Brazil 2016 for just JB who was in another set up black hole with his car but Alonso was going 2.5s a lap quicker than he was so his car was fine.

This turned into a far longer post than intended, sorry. I've been meaning to make a post bout the Stoff-Alonso battle because I think he's not getting much of a break considering the issues he's having to deal with but couldn't think where to post it. Is there an official Vandoorne thread yet because I've got more to get off my chest about his situation?. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Lets summarize.

Its clear the engine has issues. But a bit overblown on the power side, reliability they have to work on

I have a suspect the Chassis is equally bad when compared to other chassis. Eric is just redirecting all the manure towards Honda.

If they are .500 seconds a lap slower at their best, maybe just maybe half of that is Chassis related. The analysis should also include the chassis.

Alonso is just fed up, driving like an animal, fighting and trying too hard, he needs to calm down.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:57 pm 
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No mas.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:43 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
Lets summarize.

Its clear the engine has issues. But a bit overblown on the power side, reliability they have to work on



Wrong. I'll trust Fernando Alonso over you when he places full blame on Honda. "I've never raced with less power in my life".


Last edited by Herb Tarlik on Thu May 04, 2017 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Below 2015 power levels?

Could it be that they have to run the engine at such a conservative mode that it is making actually less than the 2015 unit?

Because if that is not the case then they really have no idea what they are doing. Jeez...


It's incredible if true.


I'm a bit surprised this seems to be news... IIRC it was already stated during the first test that the new PU didn't reach the power levels of the 2015 unit, and that they would need at least a couple of months to fix it.

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:45 am 
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mds wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Below 2015 power levels?

Could it be that they have to run the engine at such a conservative mode that it is making actually less than the 2015 unit?

Because if that is not the case then they really have no idea what they are doing. Jeez...


It's incredible if true.


I'm a bit surprised this seems to be news... IIRC it was already stated during the first test that the new PU didn't reach the power levels of the 2015 unit, and that they would need at least a couple of months to fix it.


I just thought they were talking about the version that ended the season last year to be honest when they talked about not hitting the previous version. I must have just assumed that they couldn't have failed by that much lol, more specifically the backwards step with the ERS is what's surprising me.

P.S. Since you're the guy that brought Stoff (And Max) to my attention a few years ago in the feeder series thread I think you should be the one to start his official thread off if you're up for it. :nod:

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:31 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mds wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Below 2015 power levels?

Could it be that they have to run the engine at such a conservative mode that it is making actually less than the 2015 unit?

Because if that is not the case then they really have no idea what they are doing. Jeez...




I'm a bit surprised this seems to be news... IIRC it was already stated during the first test that the new PU didn't reach the power levels of the 2015 unit, and that they would need at least a couple of months to fix it.


I just thought they were talking about the version that ended the season last year to be honest when they talked about not hitting the previous version. I must have just assumed that they couldn't have failed by that much lol, more specifically the backwards step with the ERS is what's surprising me.

P.S. Since you're the guy that brought Stoff (And Max) to my attention a few years ago in the feeder series thread I think you should be the one to start his official thread off if you're up for it. :nod:


And that would be fake news/ propaganda created by the chasis camp.
Its clear for everybody to see by the video posted that honda is down by 11 km/hr by the end of the straight, and acceleration curve not far off merc.
If you choose to beleive what some anonamous insider says then you are also saying Merc engine went backwards not only from 2015 but also 2016.


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:07 pm 
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mds wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7509/honda-socalled-legacy-is-bad-for-f1?_ga=2.246337283.606896849.1493851762-915301064.1451827965

It's a premium article and I haven't read it but within it is said to be this quote...

Quote:
A McLaren insider, speaking on account of anonymity, recently told Autosport that the 2017 engine has less power than the original units supplied to the team in 2015.


I'm going to guess that their top secret combustion process that they implemented this year to rival TJI doesn't actually work. At all.

Just a hunch.

(But no power issues eh PRFAN, just some reliability woes. :-P ;) )


Below 2015 power levels?

Could it be that they have to run the engine at such a conservative mode that it is making actually less than the 2015 unit?

Because if that is not the case then they really have no idea what they are doing. Jeez...


It's incredible if true.


I'm a bit surprised this seems to be news... IIRC it was already stated during the first test that the new PU didn't reach the power levels of the 2015 unit, and that they would need at least a couple of months to fix it.


That is the first I've heard of that to be honest and I tend to think it's rubbish. Before testing began the Honda PU was supposedly making 2016 Mercedes power levels. I find it really hard to believe that after testing began the actual result was below 2015 Honda power levels. It screams of incredible incompetence, confusion, but most likely plain lies. Unless, like I said before, they are running it at something like strat mode -5 or something, then of course it will make very little power.


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:31 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mds wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Below 2015 power levels?

Could it be that they have to run the engine at such a conservative mode that it is making actually less than the 2015 unit?

Because if that is not the case then they really have no idea what they are doing. Jeez...




I'm a bit surprised this seems to be news... IIRC it was already stated during the first test that the new PU didn't reach the power levels of the 2015 unit, and that they would need at least a couple of months to fix it.


I just thought they were talking about the version that ended the season last year to be honest when they talked about not hitting the previous version. I must have just assumed that they couldn't have failed by that much lol, more specifically the backwards step with the ERS is what's surprising me.

P.S. Since you're the guy that brought Stoff (And Max) to my attention a few years ago in the feeder series thread I think you should be the one to start his official thread off if you're up for it. :nod:


And that would be fake news/ propaganda created by the chasis camp.
Its clear for everybody to see by the video posted that honda is down by 11 km/hr by the end of the straight, and acceleration curve not far off merc.
If you choose to beleive what some anonamous insider says then you are also saying Merc engine went backwards not only from 2015 but also 2016.


Maybe but not for the reasons you probably think. If it's lies or exaggeration it will be to shame Honda into pulling their finger out. My slight problem with just crying BS is that it's a Dieter Renken piece. He doesn't tend to write BS or get played like that but I'm not subscribing to read it so there's not much else I can go on to get a feel for the piece.

I'm not sure what people think 100bhp down looks like on a speed trace or end of straight deficit. What are you expecting to see?. And remember they don't have equal d/f and drag, it's not the same car you are looking at. The McLaren is designed to limit that damage.

Not sure what you mean with the last bit, why would it mean Mercedes have gone backwards?.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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