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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:39 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sandman, Michael had so many retirements that the team apologised to him. They varied from loose wheel, to DRS failure, gearbox (twice), fuel pressure and technical fault (with the telemetry, they retired the car to save it). Nico had only retirements from collisions.

May I also point that car direction has nothing to do with luck. You were the one that brought luck into the conversation by the way.

Yes it was a rough year for Michael but it was also a rough year for Nico. The difference is that no one seems to be interested in keeping score for him.

No, it was not for Nico. Just not

Okay, so while at work I took a few minutes to look back into that season (not at all a thorough investigation) and found several problems for Rosberg such as dropping several positions from 4th after having to pit for extra tires due to a strategic error by the team following the race suspension in Malaysia, losing out massively due to the safety car but still making a late charge to finish 6th in Valencia, rain timing keeping him from escaping Q2 at Silverstone, 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change in Germany. And that's not even mentioning the issues he had with the car in the second half of the season in terms of the development and setup direction.

I can't count rain or safety cars as bad luck; they affect all drivers at the same time, some more and some less. He never got the mechanical problems that Schumacher got.

And what issues did he have with the car at the end of the season? The double DRS was a good idea initially, but it started affecting the tyres a lot. It also had other inherent problems with stability, for which both drivers complained. Gary Anderson's analysis at the BBC site at the time will shed some light if you want to read it. I repeat, both drivers were complaining about the stability of the car. Schumacher was known for his ability to drive around problems, so if that benefitted him then good for him; it's not bad luck for Nico if he wasn't as good as "the Michael" on that respect.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?

I think this particular thread of discussion began with a discussion comparing Bottas to Vettel in qualifying. Then somehow through a comparison of Vettel to Ricciardo, there was a comparison of Hamilton to Rosberg and subsequently Rosberg to Schumacher. The topic of the 2012 matchup between Rosberg and Schumacher came up and here we are.

Or not, that was another thread...This one was about whether top drivers win in top cars or...aw hell I can't keep it straight. Been spending way too much time in here the last couple of weeks! 8O I haven't been in here like this in years lol.

I'm a bit late to all this but the comparison was being made between the 2012 season between Schumacher and Rosberg and last season between Hamilton and Rosberg saying that Schumacher lost in similar fashion to Hamilton, this was put forward very much by a none Hamilton fan but hey let's hang any Hamilton fans that feel the need to reply.

Actually, the comparison was originally being made (by a Hamilton fan, I believe) that had Hamilton not been there Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher to the three titles and we'd be looking at him as one of the greats, or something on those lines. It wasn't actually about Hamilton, as much as you would wish it to be. It was really about whether Rosberg would indeed have had those three titles to himself. It certainly wasn't about Hamilton fans vs non-Hamilton fans. Why do you insist on making everything about him? :?


Zoue, It was Blake that brought Hamilton up.

Yes, in a single post. And literally no-one continued that line of discussion, so where does this "let's hang any Hamilton fans that need to reply" guff come from? You mentioned Blake being paranoid about Schumacher, IIRC, but on any measurable scale he doesn't come close to the paranoia pokerman displays in making everything, absolutely everything, about Hamilton


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Yes, in a single post. And literally no-one continued that line of discussion, so where does this "let's hang any Hamilton fans that need to reply" guff come from? You mentioned Blake being paranoid about Schumacher, IIRC, but on any measurable scale he doesn't come close to the paranoia pokerman displays in making everything, absolutely everything, about Hamilton


Both Pokerman and Blake have a tendency for extreme paranoia. Blake's spreads across several topics. Pokerman's is, lets say a lot more focused!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:07 am 
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lamo wrote:
Unless Hamilton secured some continued investment from sponsors or the board around late 2012/ early 2013 (for the 2014 car and engine development) that wouldn't have been there otherwise - I think the Mercedes were going to dominate 2014-2016 with or without Hamilton.

Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher 3 years straight and then likely gone on to win 3 WDC's assuming Mercedes didn't sign a grade A driver. Rosberg would have gone down as a great with that record. The only blemish being his debut season defeat to Webber. Michaels comeback would probably have been judged a lot more successful with hindsight too, which it actually already has due to Rosbergs efforts against Hamilton and Michael going out on a strong year in 2012.



Actually, I agree that Rosberg would have won the duel either 2-1 or 3-0 based on Schumacher's battery being "low" with Rosberg likely to grow hungrier and hungrier. It's possible that Michael could have somehow rejuvenated himself but given how hell-bent he was on a season by season basis, I don't personally believe he'd have added to his title haul. I think he'd have been more likely to add to his haul if he didn't retire first time around, but again IIRC he stated that he was running low on energy. Yeah, I'd have backed Rosberg to win at least 2 of the 3 WDCs, erring more toward 3 than 2. If Schumacher could have rebooted and rejuvenated himself (very difficult) then he might have come out on top, but he didn't have a whole lot more to give and I believe him. It's interesting to consider if Rosberg would have retired still the moment he won the WDC and also if he would have sustained his motivation if he had stayed on.


Last edited by Invade on Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:11 am 
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Invade wrote:
lamo wrote:
Unless Hamilton secured some continued investment from sponsors or the board around late 2012/ early 2013 (for the 2014 car and engine development) that wouldn't have been there otherwise - I think the Mercedes were going to dominate 2014-2016 with or without Hamilton.

Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher 3 years straight and then likely gone on to win 3 WDC's assuming Mercedes didn't sign a grade A driver. Rosberg would have gone down as a great with that record. The only blemish being his debut season defeat to Webber. Michaels comeback would probably have been judged a lot more successful with hindsight too, which it actually already has due to Rosbergs efforts against Hamilton and Michael going out on a strong year in 2012.



Actually, I agree that Rosberg would have won the duel either 2-1 or 3-0 based on Schumacher's battery being "low" with Rosberg likely to grow hungrier and hungrier. It's possible that Michael could have somehow rejuvenated himself but given how hell-bent he was on a season by season basis, I don't personally believe he'd have added to his title haul. I think he'd have been more likely to add to his haul if he didn't retire first time around, but again IIRC he stated that he was running low on energy. Yeah, I'd have backed Rosberg to win at least 2 of the 3 WDCs, erring more toward 3 than 2. If Schumacher could have rebooted and rejuvenated himself (very difficult) then he might have come out on top, but he didn't have a whole lot more to give and I believe him.

I think if he'd have found himself in with a chance of adding to his 7 titles his energy levels would have shot up!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:16 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
lamo wrote:
Unless Hamilton secured some continued investment from sponsors or the board around late 2012/ early 2013 (for the 2014 car and engine development) that wouldn't have been there otherwise - I think the Mercedes were going to dominate 2014-2016 with or without Hamilton.

Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher 3 years straight and then likely gone on to win 3 WDC's assuming Mercedes didn't sign a grade A driver. Rosberg would have gone down as a great with that record. The only blemish being his debut season defeat to Webber. Michaels comeback would probably have been judged a lot more successful with hindsight too, which it actually already has due to Rosbergs efforts against Hamilton and Michael going out on a strong year in 2012.



Actually, I agree that Rosberg would have won the duel either 2-1 or 3-0 based on Schumacher's battery being "low" with Rosberg likely to grow hungrier and hungrier. It's possible that Michael could have somehow rejuvenated himself but given how hell-bent he was on a season by season basis, I don't personally believe he'd have added to his title haul. I think he'd have been more likely to add to his haul if he didn't retire first time around, but again IIRC he stated that he was running low on energy. Yeah, I'd have backed Rosberg to win at least 2 of the 3 WDCs, erring more toward 3 than 2. If Schumacher could have rebooted and rejuvenated himself (very difficult) then he might have come out on top, but he didn't have a whole lot more to give and I believe him.

I think if he'd have found himself in with a chance of adding to his 7 titles his energy levels would have shot up!


I certainly don't discount the possibility -- of course, I can only guess. Also, it occurred to me just now that I don't trust in Rosberg keeping his motivation after winning what I'd presume to be an earlier first WDC, which could have thrown up various scenarios, such as Schumacher adding to his haul or a Rosberg retirement, in which case another star driver might have been introduced but would need to adapt quickly or Schumacher could win; or knowing that they have a dominant package, bring in a solid driver that bolsters the team with Schumacher being the better talent even at such a late stage in his career and comfortably bringing home a title or further.

Thinking about this, I doubt Rosberg would have immediately retired because he wouldn't have battled so fiercely for such a long period of time under the assumption he clocks that 2014 title, but I do strongly feel he'd lose motivation and against Schumacher it would matter.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:21 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He was already beating him in 2012. There are similarities between Michael's mechanically-compromised final season and Lewis' own last year. On track both had Rosberg's measure, but the points don't reflect that. There's every reason to believe Schumacher would have provided stiff competition to Rosberg and with his experience and especially with only one driver to beat it's doubtful Nico would have come out ahead

No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

The burden of proof should really be with you, I've had this 2012 discussion before and found the case for Schumacher to be somewhat exaggerated, this easy beating of Rosberg would never have happened and all of Rosberg's problems get brushed under the carpet.

Except if you read the posts above Rosberg didn't actually have that many problems?

Well I think we all agree that Schumacher had more problems but Rosberg's problems what they were do tend to get ignored.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:31 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Well I think we all agree that Schumacher had more problems but Rosberg's problems what they were do tend to get ignored.


Because they barely cost him any points.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

The burden of proof should really be with you, I've had this 2012 discussion before and found the case for Schumacher to be somewhat exaggerated, this easy beating of Rosberg would never have happened and all of Rosberg's problems get brushed under the carpet.

Except if you read the posts above Rosberg didn't actually have that many problems?

Well I think we all agree that Schumacher had more problems but Rosberg's problems what they were do tend to get ignored.

Reading the above it seems he only really had a couple, none of them race-ending, so I'm not sure it's a case of ignoring them as much as recognising that Schumacher drew the extremely short straw that year and anything Rosberg suffered didn't really compare. Attempting to make out Rosberg was in any way similarly disadvantaged ignores the reality of the situation IMO. Schumacher could have been leading the WDC after the first few races, if not for the team cock ups, but ended up with a paltry 2 points from 7 races. He had a nightmare start to the year, which was largely down to the team and doesn't reflect his own performance


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?

I think this particular thread of discussion began with a discussion comparing Bottas to Vettel in qualifying. Then somehow through a comparison of Vettel to Ricciardo, there was a comparison of Hamilton to Rosberg and subsequently Rosberg to Schumacher. The topic of the 2012 matchup between Rosberg and Schumacher came up and here we are.

Or not, that was another thread...This one was about whether top drivers win in top cars or...aw hell I can't keep it straight. Been spending way too much time in here the last couple of weeks! 8O I haven't been in here like this in years lol.

I'm a bit late to all this but the comparison was being made between the 2012 season between Schumacher and Rosberg and last season between Hamilton and Rosberg saying that Schumacher lost in similar fashion to Hamilton, this was put forward very much by a none Hamilton fan but hey let's hang any Hamilton fans that feel the need to reply.

Actually, the comparison was originally being made (by a Hamilton fan, I believe) that had Hamilton not been there Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher to the three titles and we'd be looking at him as one of the greats, or something on those lines. It wasn't actually about Hamilton, as much as you would wish it to be. It was really about whether Rosberg would indeed have had those three titles to himself. It certainly wasn't about Hamilton fans vs non-Hamilton fans. Why do you insist on making everything about him? :?

Fair enough on that score and I agree the 2012 season would question Rosberg's ability to do that against Schumacher, but this still wasn't making the comparison with Hamilton's 2016 season so then Hamilton is very much brought into the debate.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see

No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?


Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:56 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think this particular thread of discussion began with a discussion comparing Bottas to Vettel in qualifying. Then somehow through a comparison of Vettel to Ricciardo, there was a comparison of Hamilton to Rosberg and subsequently Rosberg to Schumacher. The topic of the 2012 matchup between Rosberg and Schumacher came up and here we are.

Or not, that was another thread...This one was about whether top drivers win in top cars or...aw hell I can't keep it straight. Been spending way too much time in here the last couple of weeks! 8O I haven't been in here like this in years lol.

I'm a bit late to all this but the comparison was being made between the 2012 season between Schumacher and Rosberg and last season between Hamilton and Rosberg saying that Schumacher lost in similar fashion to Hamilton, this was put forward very much by a none Hamilton fan but hey let's hang any Hamilton fans that feel the need to reply.

Actually, the comparison was originally being made (by a Hamilton fan, I believe) that had Hamilton not been there Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher to the three titles and we'd be looking at him as one of the greats, or something on those lines. It wasn't actually about Hamilton, as much as you would wish it to be. It was really about whether Rosberg would indeed have had those three titles to himself. It certainly wasn't about Hamilton fans vs non-Hamilton fans. Why do you insist on making everything about him? :?


Zoue, It was Blake that brought Hamilton up.

Yes, in a single post. And literally no-one continued that line of discussion, so where does this "let's hang any Hamilton fans that need to reply" guff come from? You mentioned Blake being paranoid about Schumacher, IIRC, but on any measurable scale he doesn't come close to the paranoia pokerman displays in making everything, absolutely everything, about Hamilton

The let's hang any Hamilton fans was obviously a reply to Blake.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:57 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see

No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?


Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see

No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?


Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.


Ah. I really should have read that list properly, that's twice it's got me. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If you read the sentence before, you'll see

No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?


Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.


Ah. I really should have read that list properly, that's twice it's got me. :lol:

even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm a bit late to all this but the comparison was being made between the 2012 season between Schumacher and Rosberg and last season between Hamilton and Rosberg saying that Schumacher lost in similar fashion to Hamilton, this was put forward very much by a none Hamilton fan but hey let's hang any Hamilton fans that feel the need to reply.

Actually, the comparison was originally being made (by a Hamilton fan, I believe) that had Hamilton not been there Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher to the three titles and we'd be looking at him as one of the greats, or something on those lines. It wasn't actually about Hamilton, as much as you would wish it to be. It was really about whether Rosberg would indeed have had those three titles to himself. It certainly wasn't about Hamilton fans vs non-Hamilton fans. Why do you insist on making everything about him? :?


Zoue, It was Blake that brought Hamilton up.

Yes, in a single post. And literally no-one continued that line of discussion, so where does this "let's hang any Hamilton fans that need to reply" guff come from? You mentioned Blake being paranoid about Schumacher, IIRC, but on any measurable scale he doesn't come close to the paranoia pokerman displays in making everything, absolutely everything, about Hamilton

The let's hang any Hamilton fans was obviously a reply to Blake.

but nobody replied, so how can we "hang any Hamilton fans who felt the need to?"


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break


Is your recall this specific and accurate for pretty much every F1 season you've ever watched?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break


Is your recall this specific and accurate for pretty much every F1 season you've ever watched?

that's why god invented the internet :D


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break


Is your recall this specific and accurate for pretty much every F1 season you've ever watched?

that's why god invented the internet :D


lol, how modest. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?


Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.


Ah. I really should have read that list properly, that's twice it's got me. :lol:

even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break


My memory was of Michael having the upper hand but I didn't follow it closely so I'm missing all these little details. Maybe a counter list is in order.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I think we all agree that Schumacher had more problems but Rosberg's problems what they were do tend to get ignored.


Because they barely cost him any points.

But are ignored when comparing drivers race by race.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If you read the sentence before, you'll see

No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?


Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.


Ah. I really should have read that list properly, that's twice it's got me. :lol:

Yeah h2h can sometimes be misleading to an overall debate, in 2011 it was 7-7 between Button and Hamilton and we all say Hamilton got beat fair and square.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?


Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.


Ah. I really should have read that list properly, that's twice it's got me. :lol:

even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break

Spain he didn't set a time so he would have fresher tyres for the race giving him an advantage over Rosberg in the race, Monaco he had a self inflicted penalty just to clarify a few things.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Actually, the comparison was originally being made (by a Hamilton fan, I believe) that had Hamilton not been there Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher to the three titles and we'd be looking at him as one of the greats, or something on those lines. It wasn't actually about Hamilton, as much as you would wish it to be. It was really about whether Rosberg would indeed have had those three titles to himself. It certainly wasn't about Hamilton fans vs non-Hamilton fans. Why do you insist on making everything about him? :?


Zoue, It was Blake that brought Hamilton up.

Yes, in a single post. And literally no-one continued that line of discussion, so where does this "let's hang any Hamilton fans that need to reply" guff come from? You mentioned Blake being paranoid about Schumacher, IIRC, but on any measurable scale he doesn't come close to the paranoia pokerman displays in making everything, absolutely everything, about Hamilton

The let's hang any Hamilton fans was obviously a reply to Blake.

but nobody replied, so how can we "hang any Hamilton fans who felt the need to?"

I didn't say you was hanging any Hamilton fans I only quoted Blake's post.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Posts: 19122
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Then how is that not performing much better?. We're removing bad luck for either from the equation to get a pure performance stat and it's heavily favouring Schumacher.

So what am I missing?.

Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.


Ah. I really should have read that list properly, that's twice it's got me. :lol:

even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break

Spain he didn't set a time so he would have fresher tyres for the race giving him an advantage over Rosberg in the race, Monaco he had a self inflicted penalty just to clarify a few things.

He did, but in a discussion about who was better over the year getting pole in Monaco is quite pertinent. That's aside from the thorny issue of having a penalty carry over from a previous race, of course


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Because a lot times when Schumacher retired he was running behind Rosberg.


Ah. I really should have read that list properly, that's twice it's got me. :lol:

even that's misleading, though. In Australia Schumacher was ahead when he retired. In Malaysia Schumacher qualified ahead of Rosberg but Grosjean punted him off, meaning he spent most of the race catching up. A podium had been a distinct possibility but he finished 10th (still ahead of Rosberg). In Bahrain Schumacher had a stuck DRS which put him out of qualifying, followed by a gearbox change which put him at the back of the grid in 22nd. Despite that he finished 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg who started 5th and finished 5th. In Spain Schumacher elected not to post a time in Q3 and was quicker than Rosberg until his accident (which was admittedly his fault). In Monaco he got pole and we all know what that's worth there. Basically, in none of the first six races, bar China, did Rosberg actually outperform Schumacher, but the latter just couldn't catch a break

Spain he didn't set a time so he would have fresher tyres for the race giving him an advantage over Rosberg in the race, Monaco he had a self inflicted penalty just to clarify a few things.

He did, but in a discussion about who was better over the year getting pole in Monaco is quite pertinent. That's aside from the thorny issue of having a penalty carry over from a previous race, of course

That is true.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
but nobody replied, so how can we "hang any Hamilton fans who felt the need to?"

I didn't say you was hanging any Hamilton fans I only quoted Blake's post.


Actually, despite what has been claimed, I did not post Hamilton's name. I just said a "certain driver" and you guys took it from there. Was I making reference to some of the fans of Lewis... possibly, perhaps even probably, but I did not say Hamilton. Just a point of clarification... probably another of the many paranoia that I have been credited with in this thread.
:lol:

P.S.
poker, I may have missed it, but I did not see any of your posts in this thread where you "only quoted Blake's post".

Of course, I should have just let this ride as I have up to now, however "accurate", or inaccurate the attacks have been, however, I obviously did not. Sometimes letting it go is easier said than done.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:01 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
but nobody replied, so how can we "hang any Hamilton fans who felt the need to?"

I didn't say you was hanging any Hamilton fans I only quoted Blake's post.


Actually, despite what has been claimed, I did not post Hamilton's name. I just said a "certain driver" and you guys took it from there. Was I making reference to some of the fans of Lewis... possibly, perhaps even probably, but I did not say Hamilton. Just a point of clarification... probably another of the many paranoia that I have been credited with in this thread.
:lol:

P.S.
poker, I may have missed it, but I did not see any of your posts in this thread where you "only quoted Blake's post".

Of course, I should have just let this ride as I have up to now, however "accurate", or inaccurate the attacks have been, however, I obviously did not. Sometimes letting it go is easier said than done.

I'm not sure who is being attacked or not, there was general posts about driver comparisons and then there was your post claiming that Hamilton fans were trying to make Schumacher look bad and Rosberg look good to the benefit of Hamilton.

Although you may have meant Hamilton fans but then again maybe not then again you probably did or we can't be sure?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 22nd

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:38 am 
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Location: Nebraska, USA
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
but nobody replied, so how can we "hang any Hamilton fans who felt the need to?"

I didn't say you was hanging any Hamilton fans I only quoted Blake's post.


Actually, despite what has been claimed, I did not post Hamilton's name. I just said a "certain driver" and you guys took it from there. Was I making reference to some of the fans of Lewis... possibly, perhaps even probably, but I did not say Hamilton. Just a point of clarification... probably another of the many paranoia that I have been credited with in this thread.
:lol:

P.S.
poker, I may have missed it, but I did not see any of your posts in this thread where you "only quoted Blake's post".

Of course, I should have just let this ride as I have up to now, however "accurate", or inaccurate the attacks have been, however, I obviously did not. Sometimes letting it go is easier said than done.

I'm not sure who is being attacked or not, there was general posts about driver comparisons and then there was your post claiming that Hamilton fans were trying to make Schumacher look bad and Rosberg look good to the benefit of Hamilton.

Although you may have meant Hamilton fans but then again maybe not then again you probably did or we can't be sure?


Poker,

One wrong, one right for you, poker. I wasn't saying that it was Hamilton fans trying to make Schumi look bad, just that it seemed that some posters were doing so. As for the Hamilton reference, yes, my post certainly allowed for that in reference to trying to make Nico look good as opposed to Schumi. Right or wrong, there have been many times when an underlying meaning was made to big up one driver, and often it has been with Lewis in mind. Is he the only driver to benefit by such, not by any means, just it seems to happen often.

As for the "attack", being labeled as having Paranoia in multiple topics is not exactly a complement is it. Still, I have been called worse so I suspect I will survive.

Have a Happy Easter.

Ciao

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:00 am 
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Posts: 20924
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
but nobody replied, so how can we "hang any Hamilton fans who felt the need to?"

I didn't say you was hanging any Hamilton fans I only quoted Blake's post.


Actually, despite what has been claimed, I did not post Hamilton's name. I just said a "certain driver" and you guys took it from there. Was I making reference to some of the fans of Lewis... possibly, perhaps even probably, but I did not say Hamilton. Just a point of clarification... probably another of the many paranoia that I have been credited with in this thread.
:lol:

P.S.
poker, I may have missed it, but I did not see any of your posts in this thread where you "only quoted Blake's post".

Of course, I should have just let this ride as I have up to now, however "accurate", or inaccurate the attacks have been, however, I obviously did not. Sometimes letting it go is easier said than done.

I'm not sure who is being attacked or not, there was general posts about driver comparisons and then there was your post claiming that Hamilton fans were trying to make Schumacher look bad and Rosberg look good to the benefit of Hamilton.

Although you may have meant Hamilton fans but then again maybe not then again you probably did or we can't be sure?


Poker,

One wrong, one right for you, poker. I wasn't saying that it was Hamilton fans trying to make Schumi look bad, just that it seemed that some posters were doing so. As for the Hamilton reference, yes, my post certainly allowed for that in reference to trying to make Nico look good as opposed to Schumi. Right or wrong, there have been many times when an underlying meaning was made to big up one driver, and often it has been with Lewis in mind. Is he the only driver to benefit by such, not by any means, just it seems to happen often.

As for the "attack", being labeled as having Paranoia in multiple topics is not exactly a complement is it. Still, I have been called worse so I suspect I will survive.

Have a Happy Easter.

Ciao

It actually wasn't me that said that I just said let's hang the Hamilton fans.

You know these things often work both ways, some would look to rubbish Rosberg because of the Hamilton connection.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 22nd

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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