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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He was already beating him in 2012. There are similarities between Michael's mechanically-compromised final season and Lewis' own last year. On track both had Rosberg's measure, but the points don't reflect that. There's every reason to believe Schumacher would have provided stiff competition to Rosberg and with his experience and especially with only one driver to beat it's doubtful Nico would have come out ahead

No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

Yet another anecdotal defense. Yes, Michael had awful luck that season but so did Rosberg and the team went in a direction with the car that suited Michael and went away from Nico (who had a very strong start to the season). Michael was much more even with Nico that year but you have to look at the matchup in a completely one-sided fashion to say that he beat him.

No, you don't at all. Michael had many more problems than Nico did and was more often than not ahead of him on track when he had his issues. I don't know why that should be so hard to acknowledge? Michael had arguably a stronger start than Nico did, for example, out-qualifying him in the first two races of the season. He had issues almost every race at the beginning, not all of which caused retirement: e.g. in Bahrain a stuck DRS flap put him out of qualifying, compounded by a gearbox change which put him at the very back of the grid, while Nico started 5th. Despite this, Schumacher finished in the points, only 16s behind Nico. But unless you look beyond the stats you won't see what issues he had to contend with.


And this was a Schumacher in his 40's racing for fun. Imagine a hungry Schumacher in his late 20's chasing championships. Rosberg would've been absolutely thrashed.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:52 pm 
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I tend to dismiss lists that do not include Nuvolari, but sadly his entire 22 year career predates F1. I wonder how his percentages compare. And the total number of races for some of the guys in the early years are staggeringly low and paint the picture that with so many fewer races their percentages are a world apart from modern era stats where drivers rack up percentages from hundreds of races.

That's why to date Schumi is for me the GOAT. Irrespective of others' accomplishments. I take nothing away from anyone else, but seeing every single one of Michael's races, what he was able to do in a car against his compatriots was other worldly. And this is not to say I'm discounting some of his poor actions, because it would be ignorant to do so. The molding of the modern day driver began with Prost, was refined by Senna, and was nearly perfected by Schumacher.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

Yet another anecdotal defense. Yes, Michael had awful luck that season but so did Rosberg and the team went in a direction with the car that suited Michael and went away from Nico (who had a very strong start to the season). Michael was much more even with Nico that year but you have to look at the matchup in a completely one-sided fashion to say that he beat him.


Sandman, Michael had so many retirements that the team apologised to him. They varied from loose wheel, to DRS failure, gearbox (twice), fuel pressure and technical fault (with the telemetry, they retired the car to save it). Nico had only retirements from collisions.

May I also point that car direction has nothing to do with luck. You were the one that brought luck into the conversation by the way.

Yes it was a rough year for Michael but it was also a rough year for Nico. The difference is that no one seems to be interested in keeping score for him.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Re; 2012 - Michael had the issues when the car was a challenging for race wins and podiums, Nico had his issues when the car was battling for 10th place.

Mercedes should have won 2 of the first 6 races that season. They scored 105 points in the first half and 37 in the second half and they lost a boat load of points in the first half too with Schumacher scoring 2 points in the first 7 races when the car was at its best. Nico had 67 points after 7 races and only scored 24 points in the last 13 races.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Here are the stats for qualifying, races (where neither driver had a mechanical DNF), and points.

2010
Qualifying: 15-4 (Nico)
Races: 13-3 (Nico)
Points: 142-72 (Nico)
2011
Qualifying: 15-2 (Nico)
Races: 9-7 (Nico)
Points: 89-76 (Nico)
2012
Qualifying: 10-10
Races: 4-10 (Michael)
Points: 93-49 (Nico)

Now we can see that Rosberg simply crushed Schumacher in 2010. In 2011, Schumacher was even further behind in qualifying (he said he struggled with the Pirellis), but actually put up a decent fight in the races. Then in 2012, Rosberg came out well ahead on points, but bad luck had a big part to play there, as evidenced by Schumacher actually finishing ahead 10-4 in races where neither driver had a mechanical DNF.

Let's take a closer look at the races from 2012, and see who really had the upper hand in each race, and calculate how many points were lost through misfortune.
Australia: Rosberg 12th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 3rd while Rosberg was 5th. Schumacher was 2 seconds ahead of Rosberg. Rosberg would have finished 8th if not for contact with Perez on the last lap. Best guess for Schumacher's finishing position based on Rosberg's pace is 6th.
Malaysia: Rosberg 13th, Schumacher 10th.
China: Rosberg 1st, Schumacher retired after a pit stop error running 2nd.
Bahrain: Rosberg 5th, Schumacher 10th.
Spain: Rosberg 7th, Schumacher crashed out.
Monaco: Rosberg 2nd, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems from 7th.
Canada: Rosberg 6th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 12th.
Europe: Rosberg 6th, Schumacher 3rd.
Britain: Rosberg 15th, Schumacher 7th.
Germany: Rosberg 10th, Schumacher 7th.
Hungary: Rosberg 10th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 18th while Rosberg was running 10th.
Belgium: Rosberg 11th, Schumacher 7th
Italy: Rosberg 7th, Schumacher 6th.
Singapore: Rosberg 5th, Schumacher crashed out.
Japan: Rosberg taken out by Senna on first lap after starting 15th, Schumacher 11th.
Korea: Rosberg taken out by Kobayashi on first lap while running 9th, Schumacher 13th.
India: Rosberg 11th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 18th while Rosberg was running 11th.
Abu Dhabi: Rosberg retired after clashing with Grosjean (not Grosjean's fault), Schumacher 11th.
US: Rosberg 13th, Schumacher 16th.
Brazil: Rosberg 15th, Schumacher 7th.
Overall, if we factor out the bad luck and award back any lost points, we end up with the following head-to-head for Rosberg vs. Schumacher.

2012
Qualifying: 10-10
Races: 10-10
Points: 95-73 (Nico)

In other words, they were quite closely matched in 2012, with maybe a tiny edge to Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:04 pm 
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How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:25 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see


Ah sorry missed that.

So accounting for the bad luck it's a pretty convincing win for Schumacher h2h considering the points gap (just trusting yours) can be explained by what lamo points out about the car being at it's most competitive when Michael was having all the rotten luck.

10-4 is pretty much the reverse of what Nico did to him in 2010 (11-3).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see


Ah sorry missed that.

So accounting for the bad luck it's a pretty convincing win for Schumacher h2h considering the points gap (just trusting yours) can be explained by what lamo points out about the car being at it's most competitive when Michael was having all the rotten luck.

10-4 is pretty much the reverse of what Nico did to him in 2010 (11-3).

Yes, in fact you can stretch to really accommodate Michael's misfortune even more if you look at situations like Monaco where he set the pole time but already had a grid penalty going into the race. He was really, really unlucky that season and had multiple potential good results slip through his fingers through outside circumstances.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see


Ah sorry missed that.

So accounting for the bad luck it's a pretty convincing win for Schumacher h2h considering the points gap (just trusting yours) can be explained by what lamo points out about the car being at it's most competitive when Michael was having all the rotten luck.

10-4 is pretty much the reverse of what Nico did to him in 2010 (11-3).


The analysis has Michael only +24 points from actual which I guess is correct, but if he didn't break down in China and didn't have the penalty/break down in Monaco he would be +40 from those two races alone. Nico would also drop to 3rd in Monaco -3 point and Michael would be a few points ahead overall. Michael getting the penalty in Spain cost himself in terms of this analysis.

Edit - Also I am not sure how you only got Michael +24 from actual, a 6th place in Aus would be 8 points and a 3rd in china (2nd was possible) would make that 23 points already and thats just the first 3 races.

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Last edited by lamo on Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:39 pm 
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As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race

Now do that for Rosberg too...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race

Now do that for Rosberg too...

He barely lost anything, similar to 2016. Note in the analysis above he only lost 2 points. 95 vs 93 from a perfect season. Last season was the same, he lost 3 points due a gearbox issue at Silverstone. He other issue in and grid penalty in Austria actually gave him a gain.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:54 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race

Now do that for Rosberg too...

that's the point: he didn't suffer anywhere near the same. There's a reason why Brawn issued a public apology to Schumacher and not Rosberg, and it's because the team let Schumacher down much, much more.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race

Now do that for Rosberg too...


Any bad luck Rosberg had was toward the end of the season when the Mercdes was barely capable of scoring points. During the first 1/3 of the season when the car was a genuine contender Schumacher's luck was horrendous.

Any analysis of performance in 2012 shows Schumacher performing at least as well as Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:32 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see


Ah sorry missed that.

So accounting for the bad luck it's a pretty convincing win for Schumacher h2h considering the points gap (just trusting yours) can be explained by what lamo points out about the car being at it's most competitive when Michael was having all the rotten luck.

10-4 is pretty much the reverse of what Nico did to him in 2010 (11-3).


The analysis has Michael only +24 points from actual which I guess is correct, but if he didn't break down in China and didn't have the penalty/break down in Monaco he would be +40 from those two races alone. Nico would also drop to 3rd in Monaco -3 point and Michael would be a few points ahead overall. Michael getting the penalty in Spain cost himself in terms of this analysis.

Edit - Also I am not sure how you only got Michael +24 from actual, a 6th place in Aus would be 8 points and a 3rd in china (2nd was possible) would make that 23 points already and thats just the first 3 races.

I'll admit to copy-pasting this from an ancient thread; the math does seem a bit off here doesn't it. From a cursory review, there should be more point given back to Michael on that last tally. I'll take a second look after work.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:36 pm 
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And in Malaysia Schumacher got tapped from behind from Grosjean while in 3rd, when the latter was going through his accident-prone phase. It demoted him to 16th. Eventually he finished 10th, passing Rosberg in the process, but just from looking at the timing gaps it's likely he would have finished at the very least in 6th or 7th, and probably higher. Again, not his fault.

And in Canada Schumacher was running 9th when his DRS flap stuck open, not 12th


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:46 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

Yet another anecdotal defense. Yes, Michael had awful luck that season but so did Rosberg and the team went in a direction with the car that suited Michael and went away from Nico (who had a very strong start to the season). Michael was much more even with Nico that year but you have to look at the matchup in a completely one-sided fashion to say that he beat him.


Sandman, Michael had so many retirements that the team apologised to him. They varied from loose wheel, to DRS failure, gearbox (twice), fuel pressure and technical fault (with the telemetry, they retired the car to save it). Nico had only retirements from collisions.

May I also point that car direction has nothing to do with luck. You were the one that brought luck into the conversation by the way.

Yes it was a rough year for Michael but it was also a rough year for Nico. The difference is that no one seems to be interested in keeping score for him.

No, it was not for Nico. Just not


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
No, it was not for Nico. Just not

stay tuned, details coming


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sandman, Michael had so many retirements that the team apologised to him. They varied from loose wheel, to DRS failure, gearbox (twice), fuel pressure and technical fault (with the telemetry, they retired the car to save it). Nico had only retirements from collisions.

May I also point that car direction has nothing to do with luck. You were the one that brought luck into the conversation by the way.

Yes it was a rough year for Michael but it was also a rough year for Nico. The difference is that no one seems to be interested in keeping score for him.

No, it was not for Nico. Just not

Okay, so while at work I took a few minutes to look back into that season (not at all a thorough investigation) and found several problems for Rosberg such as dropping several positions from 4th after having to pit for extra tires due to a strategic error by the team following the race suspension in Malaysia, losing out massively due to the safety car but still making a late charge to finish 6th in Valencia, rain timing keeping him from escaping Q2 at Silverstone, 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change in Germany. And that's not even mentioning the issues he had with the car in the second half of the season in terms of the development and setup direction.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sandman, Michael had so many retirements that the team apologised to him. They varied from loose wheel, to DRS failure, gearbox (twice), fuel pressure and technical fault (with the telemetry, they retired the car to save it). Nico had only retirements from collisions.

May I also point that car direction has nothing to do with luck. You were the one that brought luck into the conversation by the way.

Yes it was a rough year for Michael but it was also a rough year for Nico. The difference is that no one seems to be interested in keeping score for him.

No, it was not for Nico. Just not

Okay, so while at work I took a few minutes to look back into that season (not at all a thorough investigation) and found several problems for Rosberg such as dropping several positions from 4th after having to pit for extra tires due to a strategic error by the team following the race suspension in Malaysia, losing out massively due to the safety car but still making a late charge to finish 6th in Valencia, rain timing keeping him from escaping Q2 at Silverstone, 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change in Germany. And that's not even mentioning the issues he had with the car in the second half of the season in terms of the development and setup direction.


The car was so bad in the second half of the season bad luck wouldn't cost either driver much in terms of points. Schumacher bad luck all happened when the car was fighting for podiums.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sandman, Michael had so many retirements that the team apologised to him. They varied from loose wheel, to DRS failure, gearbox (twice), fuel pressure and technical fault (with the telemetry, they retired the car to save it). Nico had only retirements from collisions.

May I also point that car direction has nothing to do with luck. You were the one that brought luck into the conversation by the way.

Yes it was a rough year for Michael but it was also a rough year for Nico. The difference is that no one seems to be interested in keeping score for him.

No, it was not for Nico. Just not

Okay, so while at work I took a few minutes to look back into that season (not at all a thorough investigation) and found several problems for Rosberg such as dropping several positions from 4th after having to pit for extra tires due to a strategic error by the team following the race suspension in Malaysia, losing out massively due to the safety car but still making a late charge to finish 6th in Valencia, rain timing keeping him from escaping Q2 at Silverstone, 5 place grid penalty for gearbox change in Germany. And that's not even mentioning the issues he had with the car in the second half of the season in terms of the development and setup direction.

Do you have more info on the strategic error in Malaysia? All I could find was that Rosberg overheated his first set of Intermediates, which he'd put on at the same time Schumacher took his. Rosberg was losing time, dropped a few places from 4th to 7th and had to come in for a fresh set after 13 laps, while Schumacher made his last 25 laps. What was the pit wall error?

edit: and I don't see how Rosberg was particularly disadvantaged at the European Grand Prix. Again, he pitted at the same time as Schumacher and they were both equally disadvantaged. He lost a few places at the restart, but is that bad luck specifically? Or driving? He did drive well with a late charge from 12th to 6th after his final stop, but no more so than Schumacher from 11th to 3rd? Agree he was a bit unlucky with the rain in GB qualifying and the gearbox penalty, but not sure I'd accept something as vague as setup changes.

So that's a couple of things I can see, nothing really out of the ordinary


Last edited by Zoue on Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?


We like to analyse everything, everything doesn't have to have an agenda. For me it is interesting to understand just how well Schumacher did at 43 years old. Nobody here I think is suggesting the Schumacher 97-2001 is the same as 2010-2012.

If he had retired at the end of 2011 his comeback would have gone down an an utter disaster, but he showed in 2012 he still had it. 2012 might have been Rosbergs equivalent of Hamiltons 2011, Vettels 2014 or 2016 but even so, Michael still did very well that year.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?


You're ridiculously paranoid. You may be obsessed but don't tar everyone else with the same brush.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?

I think this particular thread of discussion began with a discussion comparing Bottas to Vettel in qualifying. Then somehow through a comparison of Vettel to Ricciardo, there was a comparison of Hamilton to Rosberg and subsequently Rosberg to Schumacher. The topic of the 2012 matchup between Rosberg and Schumacher came up and here we are.

Or not, that was another thread...This one was about whether top drivers win in top cars or...aw hell I can't keep it straight. Been spending way too much time in here the last couple of weeks! 8O I haven't been in here like this in years lol.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:07 am 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
lamo wrote:
Unless Hamilton secured some continued investment from sponsors or the board around late 2012/ early 2013 (for the 2014 car and engine development) that wouldn't have been there otherwise - I think the Mercedes were going to dominate 2014-2016 with or without Hamilton.

Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher 3 years straight and then likely gone on to win 3 WDC's assuming Mercedes didn't sign a grade A driver. Rosberg would have gone down as a great with that record. The only blemish being his debut season defeat to Webber. Michaels comeback would probably have been judged a lot more successful with hindsight too, which it actually already has due to Rosbergs efforts against Hamilton and Michael going out on a strong year in 2012.



Wow, shocking statement from you there lamo. I reckon Michael would have found a way to win one or two of those championships. You give him a dominant car and he only had one guy to beat? I think he would have ramped up the motivation and found a way to beat Nico.

He was already beating him in 2012. There are similarities between Michael's mechanically-compromised final season and Lewis' own last year. On track both had Rosberg's measure, but the points don't reflect that. There's every reason to believe Schumacher would have provided stiff competition to Rosberg and with his experience and especially with only one driver to beat it's doubtful Nico would have come out ahead

No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

The burden of proof should really be with you, I've had this 2012 discussion before and found the case for Schumacher to be somewhat exaggerated, this easy beating of Rosberg would never have happened and all of Rosberg's problems get brushed under the carpet.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:09 am 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

Yet another anecdotal defense. Yes, Michael had awful luck that season but so did Rosberg and the team went in a direction with the car that suited Michael and went away from Nico (who had a very strong start to the season). Michael was much more even with Nico that year but you have to look at the matchup in a completely one-sided fashion to say that he beat him.

No, you don't at all. Michael had many more problems than Nico did and was more often than not ahead of him on track when he had his issues. I don't know why that should be so hard to acknowledge? Michael had arguably a stronger start than Nico did, for example, out-qualifying him in the first two races of the season. He had issues almost every race at the beginning, not all of which caused retirement: e.g. in Bahrain a stuck DRS flap put him out of qualifying, compounded by a gearbox change which put him at the very back of the grid, while Nico started 5th. Despite this, Schumacher finished in the points, only 16s behind Nico. But unless you look beyond the stats you won't see what issues he had to contend with.


And this was a Schumacher in his 40's racing for fun. Imagine a hungry Schumacher in his late 20's chasing championships. Rosberg would've been absolutely thrashed.

Schumacher was hardly racing for fun ask Rubens.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:16 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Here are the stats for qualifying, races (where neither driver had a mechanical DNF), and points.

2010
Qualifying: 15-4 (Nico)
Races: 13-3 (Nico)
Points: 142-72 (Nico)
2011
Qualifying: 15-2 (Nico)
Races: 9-7 (Nico)
Points: 89-76 (Nico)
2012
Qualifying: 10-10
Races: 4-10 (Michael)
Points: 93-49 (Nico)

Now we can see that Rosberg simply crushed Schumacher in 2010. In 2011, Schumacher was even further behind in qualifying (he said he struggled with the Pirellis), but actually put up a decent fight in the races. Then in 2012, Rosberg came out well ahead on points, but bad luck had a big part to play there, as evidenced by Schumacher actually finishing ahead 10-4 in races where neither driver had a mechanical DNF.

Let's take a closer look at the races from 2012, and see who really had the upper hand in each race, and calculate how many points were lost through misfortune.
Australia: Rosberg 12th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 3rd while Rosberg was 5th. Schumacher was 2 seconds ahead of Rosberg. Rosberg would have finished 8th if not for contact with Perez on the last lap. Best guess for Schumacher's finishing position based on Rosberg's pace is 6th.
Malaysia: Rosberg 13th, Schumacher 10th.
China: Rosberg 1st, Schumacher retired after a pit stop error running 2nd.
Bahrain: Rosberg 5th, Schumacher 10th.
Spain: Rosberg 7th, Schumacher crashed out.
Monaco: Rosberg 2nd, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems from 7th.
Canada: Rosberg 6th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 12th.
Europe: Rosberg 6th, Schumacher 3rd.
Britain: Rosberg 15th, Schumacher 7th.
Germany: Rosberg 10th, Schumacher 7th.
Hungary: Rosberg 10th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 18th while Rosberg was running 10th.
Belgium: Rosberg 11th, Schumacher 7th
Italy: Rosberg 7th, Schumacher 6th.
Singapore: Rosberg 5th, Schumacher crashed out.
Japan: Rosberg taken out by Senna on first lap after starting 15th, Schumacher 11th.
Korea: Rosberg taken out by Kobayashi on first lap while running 9th, Schumacher 13th.
India: Rosberg 11th, Schumacher retired with mechanical problems running 18th while Rosberg was running 11th.
Abu Dhabi: Rosberg retired after clashing with Grosjean (not Grosjean's fault), Schumacher 11th.
US: Rosberg 13th, Schumacher 16th.
Brazil: Rosberg 15th, Schumacher 7th.
Overall, if we factor out the bad luck and award back any lost points, we end up with the following head-to-head for Rosberg vs. Schumacher.

2012
Qualifying: 10-10
Races: 10-10
Points: 95-73 (Nico)

In other words, they were quite closely matched in 2012, with maybe a tiny edge to Rosberg.

Cheers I remember doing that analysis a few years ago and didn't fancy doing it again, I don't remember the result I came up with just the exaggeration of the Schumacher camp.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:17 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

I think the h2h 10-4 was wrong in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:19 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see

No surely it's 7-2 to Schumacher when both cars finished?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:21 am 
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lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
How did Michael go from winning the h2h 10-4 to a draw at 10-10?.

If you read the sentence before, you'll see


Ah sorry missed that.

So accounting for the bad luck it's a pretty convincing win for Schumacher h2h considering the points gap (just trusting yours) can be explained by what lamo points out about the car being at it's most competitive when Michael was having all the rotten luck.

10-4 is pretty much the reverse of what Nico did to him in 2010 (11-3).


The analysis has Michael only +24 points from actual which I guess is correct, but if he didn't break down in China and didn't have the penalty/break down in Monaco he would be +40 from those two races alone. Nico would also drop to 3rd in Monaco -3 point and Michael would be a few points ahead overall. Michael getting the penalty in Spain cost himself in terms of this analysis.

Edit - Also I am not sure how you only got Michael +24 from actual, a 6th place in Aus would be 8 points and a 3rd in china (2nd was possible) would make that 23 points already and thats just the first 3 races.

You can't give Schumacher the win in Monaco because he incurred a self inflicted penalty.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:22 am 
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Zoue wrote:
As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race

That's just 1 race.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:25 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race

Now do that for Rosberg too...


Any bad luck Rosberg had was toward the end of the season when the Mercdes was barely capable of scoring points. During the first 1/3 of the season when the car was a genuine contender Schumacher's luck was horrendous.

Any analysis of performance in 2012 shows Schumacher performing at least as well as Rosberg.

Now I wouldn't want to disagree with that, but the insistence by some is that Schumacher performed a lot better.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:34 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?

I think this particular thread of discussion began with a discussion comparing Bottas to Vettel in qualifying. Then somehow through a comparison of Vettel to Ricciardo, there was a comparison of Hamilton to Rosberg and subsequently Rosberg to Schumacher. The topic of the 2012 matchup between Rosberg and Schumacher came up and here we are.

Or not, that was another thread...This one was about whether top drivers win in top cars or...aw hell I can't keep it straight. Been spending way too much time in here the last couple of weeks! 8O I haven't been in here like this in years lol.

I'm a bit late to all this but the comparison was being made between the 2012 season between Schumacher and Rosberg and last season between Hamilton and Rosberg saying that Schumacher lost in similar fashion to Hamilton, this was put forward very much by a none Hamilton fan but hey let's hang any Hamilton fans that feel the need to reply.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:18 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Wow, shocking statement from you there lamo. I reckon Michael would have found a way to win one or two of those championships. You give him a dominant car and he only had one guy to beat? I think he would have ramped up the motivation and found a way to beat Nico.

He was already beating him in 2012. There are similarities between Michael's mechanically-compromised final season and Lewis' own last year. On track both had Rosberg's measure, but the points don't reflect that. There's every reason to believe Schumacher would have provided stiff competition to Rosberg and with his experience and especially with only one driver to beat it's doubtful Nico would have come out ahead

No he was not. The way people bend reality to suggest that amazes me. The only way to come to that conclusion is to look at all of the bad luck Michael had that year and totally ignore the bad luck that Nico had.

yes he was. Ross Brawn even made a public apology to Schumacher at the number of times the team had messed up for him. If you analyse the season beyond the points score you will see that Schumacher was usually ahead of Rosberg when he had to retire and on track the veteran had Rosberg's measure

The burden of proof should really be with you, I've had this 2012 discussion before and found the case for Schumacher to be somewhat exaggerated, this easy beating of Rosberg would never have happened and all of Rosberg's problems get brushed under the carpet.

Except if you read the posts above Rosberg didn't actually have that many problems?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As pointed out earlier, there were also other issues which didn't result in DNFs but still compromised him heavily. So in Bahrain, where Schumacher finished 10th and Rosberg 5th, what's not shown is that Schumacher's qualifying was compromised by a stuck DRS flap which saw him eliminated in Q1 and, to add insult to injury, he had to endure a gearbox change which put him 22nd on the grid. Through no fault of his own. And while Rosberg started 5th and finished 5th, Schumacher clawed his way up from the rear to finish 10th, only 16s behind Rosberg. Who knows what he would have been able to do without those issues, but it's clear he was much quicker than Rosberg in the race

That's just 1 race.

It is. But it was just underneath the previous analysis and was just to highlight an additional omission.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?

I think this particular thread of discussion began with a discussion comparing Bottas to Vettel in qualifying. Then somehow through a comparison of Vettel to Ricciardo, there was a comparison of Hamilton to Rosberg and subsequently Rosberg to Schumacher. The topic of the 2012 matchup between Rosberg and Schumacher came up and here we are.

Or not, that was another thread...This one was about whether top drivers win in top cars or...aw hell I can't keep it straight. Been spending way too much time in here the last couple of weeks! 8O I haven't been in here like this in years lol.

I'm a bit late to all this but the comparison was being made between the 2012 season between Schumacher and Rosberg and last season between Hamilton and Rosberg saying that Schumacher lost in similar fashion to Hamilton, this was put forward very much by a none Hamilton fan but hey let's hang any Hamilton fans that feel the need to reply.

Actually, the comparison was originally being made (by a Hamilton fan, I believe) that had Hamilton not been there Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher to the three titles and we'd be looking at him as one of the greats, or something on those lines. It wasn't actually about Hamilton, as much as you would wish it to be. It was really about whether Rosberg would indeed have had those three titles to himself. It certainly wasn't about Hamilton fans vs non-Hamilton fans. Why do you insist on making everything about him? :?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:34 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Why is this even an issue??? Schumi win percentage 29.5 vs Nico at 11+ %.

Is the purpose to somehow bring Schumi down a bit... or to make Nico look better, thereby benefitting a certain other drivér somehow?

I think this particular thread of discussion began with a discussion comparing Bottas to Vettel in qualifying. Then somehow through a comparison of Vettel to Ricciardo, there was a comparison of Hamilton to Rosberg and subsequently Rosberg to Schumacher. The topic of the 2012 matchup between Rosberg and Schumacher came up and here we are.

Or not, that was another thread...This one was about whether top drivers win in top cars or...aw hell I can't keep it straight. Been spending way too much time in here the last couple of weeks! 8O I haven't been in here like this in years lol.

I'm a bit late to all this but the comparison was being made between the 2012 season between Schumacher and Rosberg and last season between Hamilton and Rosberg saying that Schumacher lost in similar fashion to Hamilton, this was put forward very much by a none Hamilton fan but hey let's hang any Hamilton fans that feel the need to reply.

Actually, the comparison was originally being made (by a Hamilton fan, I believe) that had Hamilton not been there Rosberg would have beaten Schumacher to the three titles and we'd be looking at him as one of the greats, or something on those lines. It wasn't actually about Hamilton, as much as you would wish it to be. It was really about whether Rosberg would indeed have had those three titles to himself. It certainly wasn't about Hamilton fans vs non-Hamilton fans. Why do you insist on making everything about him? :?


Zoue, It was Blake that brought Hamilton up.


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