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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:54 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
31 races.

D'oh!

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes are quite happy to blame Hamilton for accidents. See Lauda's comments in Spain last year.

The Mercedes management makes a lot of noise when Hamilton messes things up, but Lewis didn't change his approach due to it. I think Nico took the Spa incident to heart and it cost him a bit of killer edge.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:02 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I have 2 words for ferrari: development race

With all those updates they brought it looks like they have fallen behind again. Even redbull is closer to them now. Im very worried about ferrari already.

Oh and great job by bottas. I have always had a lot of respect for him as a driver.

It's very worrying but I'm thinking...

This is a power dependent circuit and the lap times haven't improved much from last year because there's very little aero dependence.

We know Mercedes have an extra power boost in qualifying, could it be possible Mercedes lead on the power front and Ferrari on the aero front? With the Q3 mode increasing the gap?

I believe Kimi has been consistently quickest in S2 - does that help shed any light?

It would support the view in my post since S2 is an aero sector with both of the high speed sections of the track in. S1 & S3 are basically just straights and 90 degree corners.


P # Driver Sector #1 Sector #2 Sector #3 Time + Lead
1 44 L Hamilton 28.316 [2] 38.262 [1] 22.156 [1] 1:28.734
2 77 V Bottas 28.284 [1] 38.299 [2] 22.180 [2] 1:28.763 +0.029 +0.029
3 5 S Vettel 28.499 [3] 38.369 [3] 22.294 [3] 1:29.162 +0.399 +0.428
4 7 K Raikkonen 28.552 [4] 38.509 [4] 22.427 [5] 1:29.488 +0.326 +0.754

The sector times don't support that hypothesis.
Ferrari are losing time in all parts of the lap and Kimi is nowhere in s2?

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... s=7650&p=3


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:04 am 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Not according to Pt Symonds. But what does he know, right?

"I think tomorrow will be swayed towards Ferrari," predicted Sky F1's Pat Symonds. "Mercedes are concerned about rear tyres. Ferrari will be a lot closer tomorrow. They haven't got this amazing qualifying mode [which Mercedes bring out]. Tyre management is Ferrari's strong point and I'm hoping for a close race."

I doubt he knows much about Ferrari engine modes given he's never worked for them. If it was James Allison saying it I'd be more inclined to believe him.

Yeah I think you're reaching here, tbh. As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums. I think denying something that has been fairly common knowledge up to now is a bit odd


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:06 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I have 2 words for ferrari: development race

With all those updates they brought it looks like they have fallen behind again. Even redbull is closer to them now. Im very worried about ferrari already.

Oh and great job by bottas. I have always had a lot of respect for him as a driver.

It's very worrying but I'm thinking...

This is a power dependent circuit and the lap times haven't improved much from last year because there's very little aero dependence.

We know Mercedes have an extra power boost in qualifying, could it be possible Mercedes lead on the power front and Ferrari on the aero front? With the Q3 mode increasing the gap?

I believe Kimi has been consistently quickest in S2 - does that help shed any light?

It would support the view in my post since S2 is an aero sector with both of the high speed sections of the track in. S1 & S3 are basically just straights and 90 degree corners.


P # Driver Sector #1 Sector #2 Sector #3 Time + Lead
1 44 L Hamilton 28.316 [2] 38.262 [1] 22.156 [1] 1:28.734
2 77 V Bottas 28.284 [1] 38.299 [2] 22.180 [2] 1:28.763 +0.029 +0.029
3 5 S Vettel 28.499 [3] 38.369 [3] 22.294 [3] 1:29.162 +0.399 +0.428
4 7 K Raikkonen 28.552 [4] 38.509 [4] 22.427 [5] 1:29.488 +0.326 +0.754

The sector times don't support that hypothesis.
Ferrari are losing time in all parts of the lap and Kimi is nowhere in s2?

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... s=7650&p=3

yeah those are the ultimate speeds per sector and driver. Before Q3 it was reported that Kimi was posting the quickest S2 times, but it seems that this changed in Q3


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:58 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If so why have Ferrari dialled so much understeer into their cars?

Bottas seems to have a qualifying set up?

So if he has a good race tomorrow it will be even more impressive considering he had a qualifying setup?

Yes indeed if he can win the race.

And even if he can't we can put part of the blame on the set up I suppose.

:lol: man, you must be an attorney ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:17 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I have 2 words for ferrari: development race

With all those updates they brought it looks like they have fallen behind again. Even redbull is closer to them now. Im very worried about ferrari already.

Oh and great job by bottas. I have always had a lot of respect for him as a driver.

It's very worrying but I'm thinking...

This is a power dependent circuit and the lap times haven't improved much from last year because there's very little aero dependence.

We know Mercedes have an extra power boost in qualifying, could it be possible Mercedes lead on the power front and Ferrari on the aero front? With the Q3 mode increasing the gap?

I believe Kimi has been consistently quickest in S2 - does that help shed any light?

It would support the view in my post since S2 is an aero sector with both of the high speed sections of the track in. S1 & S3 are basically just straights and 90 degree corners.


P # Driver Sector #1 Sector #2 Sector #3 Time + Lead
1 44 L Hamilton 28.316 [2] 38.262 [1] 22.156 [1] 1:28.734
2 77 V Bottas 28.284 [1] 38.299 [2] 22.180 [2] 1:28.763 +0.029 +0.029
3 5 S Vettel 28.499 [3] 38.369 [3] 22.294 [3] 1:29.162 +0.399 +0.428
4 7 K Raikkonen 28.552 [4] 38.509 [4] 22.427 [5] 1:29.488 +0.326 +0.754

The sector times don't support that hypothesis.
Ferrari are losing time in all parts of the lap and Kimi is nowhere in s2?

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... s=7650&p=3

Ah thanks for those times, I hadn't seen the Q3 splits but before then Ferrari were ahead in that sector.

Still, you can see how much more time they are losing in the final sector which is basically two straights and a stop start corner. Ferrari's main weakness yesterday seemed to be a lack of power.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:30 am 
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Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:57 am 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

No, what I was saying was that Mercedes' engine mode put pole out of reach in China. The gap has been highlighted more here in Bahrain, but it demonstrates just how effective it is and puts their China qualifying into perspective. Far from the cars being equal, Mercedes have an edge in qualifying, Given how close things were in China, this suggests that Vettel's lap was pretty impressive. In fact, I'd suggest Occam's Razor supports my hypothesis, as it's fairly widely accepted that Mercedes do have a qualifying mode which gives them an extra edge, so no additional assumptions are really necessary


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

No, what I was saying was that Mercedes' engine mode put pole out of reach in China. The gap has been highlighted more here in Bahrain, but it demonstrates just how effective it is and puts their China qualifying into perspective. Far from the cars being equal, Mercedes have an edge in qualifying, Given how close things were in China, this suggests that Vettel's lap was pretty impressive. In fact, I'd suggest Occam's Razor supports my hypothesis, as it's fairly widely accepted that Mercedes do have a qualifying mode which gives them an extra edge, so no additional assumptions are really necessary


Which raises the question, how close to Ferrari have to be for it to be better than the Mercedes all bar the engine qualifying mode?

Do Mercedes use this engine mode for in and out laps? I've never noticed it on the lap charts

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:15 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

Well Merc said in P3 they had 0.5s in reserve, and bang in quali they turned the wick up exactly to that degree.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:23 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

No, what I was saying was that Mercedes' engine mode put pole out of reach in China. The gap has been highlighted more here in Bahrain, but it demonstrates just how effective it is and puts their China qualifying into perspective. Far from the cars being equal, Mercedes have an edge in qualifying, Given how close things were in China, this suggests that Vettel's lap was pretty impressive. In fact, I'd suggest Occam's Razor supports my hypothesis, as it's fairly widely accepted that Mercedes do have a qualifying mode which gives them an extra edge, so no additional assumptions are really necessary


Which raises the question, how close to Ferrari have to be for it to be better than the Mercedes all bar the engine qualifying mode?

Do Mercedes use this engine mode for in and out laps? I've never noticed it on the lap charts

I'm fairly sure that they do, but Obviously have to be very restricted on when they can use it due to it over stressing the engine components (and maybe burning a lot of oil?... What ever happened with the monitoring the FIA were doing on that?)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

Well Merc said in P3 they had 0.5s in reserve, and bang in quali they turned the wick up exactly to that degree.


Do the teams run the engines at full wick in practice?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Covalent wrote:
So if he has a good race tomorrow it will be even more impressive considering he had a qualifying setup?


No, no... if he wins tomorrow then Lewis' car will have been set up badly by the team. :lol:

I've said it looks like Hamilton's car has been set up for the race so I've already not got that excuse have I?

I've said that it looks like Hamilton may have the better race car for looking after it's rear tyres, all that being true it will be interesting to see if Bottas can make his track position count, his biggest worry may be Vettel rather than Hamilton because Hamilton will not be allowed to undercut him.

Thinking about it if Hamilton doesn't lead the race after the first lap I can't see him winning it he he gets trapped between Bottas and Vettel, I'm surmising that overtaking will be very difficult.


Think about the situation Bot, Ham, Vet, and very close to each others. Which is quite a possibility if Bottas does not pull away from Hamilton. Then Ferrari pulls in Vettel for the undercut... and Mercedes can't take both of their drives in at the very same next lap to counteract the undercut. They take in the leading Bottas, and Hamilton ends behind both of them. Or? Are we to see a TO being issued in the first sting, for Bottas to let Hamilton pass and block Vettel?

Unless Bottas experiences early tyre issues then that's how I expect the race to pan out in favour to Vettel over Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Do the teams turn down their engines for practice sessions, Q1 and Q2? Does this not influence the Q3 setting? What about the driver who is probably putting in his ultimate lap in Q3, I have heard many times how the drivers at the top hold something back, the top teams are guaranteed to get through anyway. Does this not influence the Q3 setting time difference?

Surely all teams have a Q3 setting specially when I look at yesterday's and the top teams all improved.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:26 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Do the teams turn down their engines for practice sessions, Q1 and Q2? Does this not influence the Q3 setting? What about the driver who is probably putting in his ultimate lap in Q3, I have heard many times how the drivers at the top hold something back, the top teams are guaranteed to get through anyway. Does this not influence the Q3 setting time difference?

Surely all teams have a Q3 setting specially when I look at yesterday's and the top teams all improved.

Both Mercedes and Ferrari turn their engines up for Q3, Q2 is just a cruise into Q3.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Do the teams turn down their engines for practice sessions, Q1 and Q2? Does this not influence the Q3 setting? What about the driver who is probably putting in his ultimate lap in Q3, I have heard many times how the drivers at the top hold something back, the top teams are guaranteed to get through anyway. Does this not influence the Q3 setting time difference?

Surely all teams have a Q3 setting specially when I look at yesterday's and the top teams all improved.

Both Mercedes and Ferrari turn their engines up for Q3, Q2 is just a cruise into Q3.


Can it be Mercedes and Ferrari run the engine at different levels in Q2 and thats what makes some of the difference regarding Mercedes Q3 mode?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:45 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Covalent wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

Well Merc said in P3 they had 0.5s in reserve, and bang in quali they turned the wick up exactly to that degree.


Do the teams run the engines at full wick in practice?

How could they have 0.5s in reserve if they ran at full wick?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Covalent wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Zoue wrote:
As Kimi said last year, these guys all have GPS traces and they can see how the Merc suddenly peps up in final qualifying. Pat may have left Williams this year but I'm fairly confident he still has more inside knowledge than anyone on these forums.

Mercedes definitely do have a Q3 engine setting, I'm not disputing that. How do we know that Ferrari don't also have a similar mode that perks up the car in Q3? I admit that the Ferrari engine mode I'm speculating about isn't as good as Mercedes.

We are both doing some reaching. I've suggested that Ferrari has a similar (less powerful) mode for Q3, you've suggested that Vettel has made up the difference through pure talent in Australia and China. Occam's razor probably comes up in my favour, Ferrari have a similar engine mode but Kimi is driving so poorly that he can't exploit it.

Well Merc said in P3 they had 0.5s in reserve, and bang in quali they turned the wick up exactly to that degree.


Do the teams run the engines at full wick in practice?

How could they have 0.5s in reserve if they ran at full wick?


That was the point, so maybe they turn their engines down more than others?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:29 pm 
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In layman's terms I think Mercedes just have the option of turning the engine up to 11, whereas Ferrari and others can only go to 10.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:40 pm 
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robins13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If so why have Ferrari dialled so much understeer into their cars?

Bottas seems to have a qualifying set up?

So if he has a good race tomorrow it will be even more impressive considering he had a qualifying setup?

Yes indeed if he can win the race.

And even if he can't we can put part of the blame on the set up I suppose.

:lol: man, you must be an attorney ;)

So was I right? ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
And even if he can't we can put part of the blame on the set up I suppose.

:lol: man, you must be an attorney ;)

So was I right? ;)

Quite clearly and, to be blunt, Mercedes shouldn't allow this. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Both cars should be setup for the race as they seem to have an edge in qualy over Ferrari. They need to be focused on competing against Ferrari and not eachother.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:01 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
And even if he can't we can put part of the blame on the set up I suppose.

:lol: man, you must be an attorney ;)

So was I right? ;)

Quite clearly and, to be blunt, Mercedes shouldn't allow this. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Both cars should be setup for the race as they seem to have an edge in qualy over Ferrari. They need to be focused on competing against Ferrari and not eachother.


Spot on. The landscape has changed and Mercedes should act quickly.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
And even if he can't we can put part of the blame on the set up I suppose.

:lol: man, you must be an attorney ;)

So was I right? ;)

Quite clearly and, to be blunt, Mercedes shouldn't allow this. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Both cars should be setup for the race as they seem to have an edge in qualy over Ferrari. They need to be focused on competing against Ferrari and not eachother.


Spot on. The landscape has changed and Mercedes should act quickly.

Nah they should keep doing what they are doing, maybe not use that extra Q3 mode too in case it breaks the engine :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:06 pm 
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:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:32 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
mds wrote:
Sorry but this Q2-Q3 comparison is nonsense unless you believe that they go all out in Q2. Which I don't, to be very fair, as the top two teams could reach Q3 while driving well within themselves. The added bonus of driving a conservative Q2 lap is they don't use as much of their race tyres.

My point is that the difference between all three drivers isn't that different. It's a leap to say it's mostly engine mode for the Mercs and mostly driver skill for Vettel (although Kimi's very poor showing this year makes it a possibility).


My point was that any point you want to make should not use Q2 data as it is not telling us anything.

The real idea of the Mercs qualifying mode stems from the fact they're pretty much always much faster than their competitors in Q3 as compared to their race pace.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
And even if he can't we can put part of the blame on the set up I suppose.

:lol: man, you must be an attorney ;)

So was I right? ;)

Quite clearly and, to be blunt, Mercedes shouldn't allow this. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Both cars should be setup for the race as they seem to have an edge in qualy over Ferrari. They need to be focused on competing against Ferrari and not eachother.


Spot on. The landscape has changed and Mercedes should act quickly.

What I find funny about it is why Bottas can't understand why he had so much oversteer in the race, he basically cost Mercedes the race win and Mercedes themselves can't understand what went wrong, clueless.

Also now he's upset because team orders were used against him, whilst Hamilton battles his slower teammate Vettel coasts to the title.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
robins13 wrote:
:lol: man, you must be an attorney ;)

So was I right? ;)

Quite clearly and, to be blunt, Mercedes shouldn't allow this. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Both cars should be setup for the race as they seem to have an edge in qualy over Ferrari. They need to be focused on competing against Ferrari and not eachother.


Spot on. The landscape has changed and Mercedes should act quickly.

What I find funny about it is why Bottas can't understand why he had so much oversteer in the race, he basically cost Mercedes the race win and Mercedes themselves can't understand what went wrong, clueless.

Also now he's upset because team orders were used against him, whilst Hamilton battles his slower teammate Vettel coasts to the title.


He's not upset they used team orders. He says is not nice to hear but that he understands it. Full quote:
“Honestly as a racing driver it’s maybe the worst thing you want to hear,” said Bottas after the race. “That’s how it is.”

“But for sure I did it because there was potential Lewis could challenge Sebastian. In the end it didn’t happen but the team tried which I completely understand. Personally it is tough but that’s life. I didn’t have enough pace today. We need to find the reasons why that was.”

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:38 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So was I right? ;)

Quite clearly and, to be blunt, Mercedes shouldn't allow this. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Both cars should be setup for the race as they seem to have an edge in qualy over Ferrari. They need to be focused on competing against Ferrari and not eachother.


Spot on. The landscape has changed and Mercedes should act quickly.

What I find funny about it is why Bottas can't understand why he had so much oversteer in the race, he basically cost Mercedes the race win and Mercedes themselves can't understand what went wrong, clueless.

Also now he's upset because team orders were used against him, whilst Hamilton battles his slower teammate Vettel coasts to the title.


He's not upset they used team orders. He says is not nice to hear but that he understands it. Full quote:
“Honestly as a racing driver it’s maybe the worst thing you want to hear,” said Bottas after the race. “That’s how it is.”

“But for sure I did it because there was potential Lewis could challenge Sebastian. In the end it didn’t happen but the team tried which I completely understand. Personally it is tough but that’s life. I didn’t have enough pace today. We need to find the reasons why that was.”

Fair enough but I'm baffled by the confusion when he set his car up on the nose on a rear limited track?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Bottas took the orders well. I think he feels bad about having a pole and opportunity to win and it turning into a race where he was over 0.5 per lap slower than his team mate.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:09 am 
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Just reading in the teammate wars article that Hamiton had DRS issues on his 2nd run in Q3.
I noticed he lost nearly 3 tenths in sector 2 but assumed he'd made a mistake.
Has anyone seen the actual footage which shows the DRS not deploying?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Just reading in the teammate wars article that Hamiton had DRS issues on his 2nd run in Q3.
I noticed he lost nearly 3 tenths in sector 2 but assumed he'd made a mistake.
Has anyone seen the actual footage which shows the DRS not deploying?


That's not supported by data other than people speculating that!

A track like Bahrain loss of DRS will cost mre than 3/10th!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Just reading in the teammate wars article that Hamiton had DRS issues on his 2nd run in Q3.
I noticed he lost nearly 3 tenths in sector 2 but assumed he'd made a mistake.
Has anyone seen the actual footage which shows the DRS not deploying?


Supposedly there is video evidence of it but i havent been able to find it. 2 and a half tenths was supposedly the net loss due to that.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Mark Hughes wrote this in his article:

"On his final run Hamilton suffered an oversteer snap out of the long uphill Turn 10, costing him almost three tenths. Contest over. “I knew after the first run I had a fight on my hands,” said Lewis. “The first lap felt great and I looked up at the screens and saw how close he was and I thought, ‘Wow, he’s going some…’"

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:48 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Mark Hughes wrote this in his article:

"On his final run Hamilton suffered an oversteer snap out of the long uphill Turn 10, costing him almost three tenths. Contest over. “I knew after the first run I had a fight on my hands,” said Lewis. “The first lap felt great and I looked up at the screens and saw how close he was and I thought, ‘Wow, he’s going some…’"

Everyone assumed that that little snap caused him to lose 3 tenths but he later revealed that he didnt have drs in the second drs zone. I guess he didnt realize it until way afterwards.
Still would like to see that elusive footage.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:45 pm 
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mds wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mds wrote:
Sorry but this Q2-Q3 comparison is nonsense unless you believe that they go all out in Q2. Which I don't, to be very fair, as the top two teams could reach Q3 while driving well within themselves. The added bonus of driving a conservative Q2 lap is they don't use as much of their race tyres.

My point is that the difference between all three drivers isn't that different. It's a leap to say it's mostly engine mode for the Mercs and mostly driver skill for Vettel (although Kimi's very poor showing this year makes it a possibility).


My point was that any point you want to make should not use Q2 data as it is not telling us anything.

The real idea of the Mercs qualifying mode stems from the fact they're pretty much always much faster than their competitors in Q3 as compared to their race pace.


This is indeed correct but it was also the case in 2013 too, it probbaly is the engine mode but it might partly be something else too.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
...

He's not upset they used team orders. He says is not nice to hear but that he understands it. Full quote:
“Honestly as a racing driver it’s maybe the worst thing you want to hear,” said Bottas after the race. “That’s how it is.”

“But for sure I did it because there was potential Lewis could challenge Sebastian. In the end it didn’t happen but the team tried which I completely understand. Personally it is tough but that’s life. I didn’t have enough pace today. We need to find the reasons why that was.”

Fair enough but I'm baffled by the confusion when he set his car up on the nose on a rear limited track?


I do not think the extent of the looseness in the car setup was intentional. As if there was a strategy to put Bottas on pole so he could then hold up the whole field, including his teammate, during the race. He's probably baffled because the his car was so different than what was expected.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:42 pm 
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ETM3 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
...

He's not upset they used team orders. He says is not nice to hear but that he understands it. Full quote:
“Honestly as a racing driver it’s maybe the worst thing you want to hear,” said Bottas after the race. “That’s how it is.”

“But for sure I did it because there was potential Lewis could challenge Sebastian. In the end it didn’t happen but the team tried which I completely understand. Personally it is tough but that’s life. I didn’t have enough pace today. We need to find the reasons why that was.”

Fair enough but I'm baffled by the confusion when he set his car up on the nose on a rear limited track?


I do not think the extent of the looseness in the car setup was intentional. As if there was a strategy to put Bottas on pole so he could then hold up the whole field, including his teammate, during the race. He's probably baffled because the his car was so different than what was expected.

No indeed I've no doubt that Bottas thought he had a good car but I think he underestimated what was required for the race itself.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:49 am 
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lamo wrote:
mds wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
mds wrote:
Sorry but this Q2-Q3 comparison is nonsense unless you believe that they go all out in Q2. Which I don't, to be very fair, as the top two teams could reach Q3 while driving well within themselves. The added bonus of driving a conservative Q2 lap is they don't use as much of their race tyres.

My point is that the difference between all three drivers isn't that different. It's a leap to say it's mostly engine mode for the Mercs and mostly driver skill for Vettel (although Kimi's very poor showing this year makes it a possibility).


My point was that any point you want to make should not use Q2 data as it is not telling us anything.

The real idea of the Mercs qualifying mode stems from the fact they're pretty much always much faster than their competitors in Q3 as compared to their race pace.


This is indeed correct but it was also the case in 2013 too, it probbaly is the engine mode but it might partly be something else too.

If it was something else I would expect Pat Symonds to have alluded to that instead

There was a good bit of talk about the special Q3 mode last year and just how impressive it was for both Lewis and Nico to nail qualy laps with new entry speeds and braking points that they hadn't experienced all weekend. It takes serious skill to just be able to do that on the fly

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