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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
Why didn't Mercedes order lewis to give back the position to bottas once it became obvious he couldn't win? Don't get me wrong, i think it was the correct move at the time but it's it's almost an unwritten rule, you move aside for your teammate and if he doesn't achieve the goal that you moved aside for, you get your position back at the end. I am sure i even heard lewis say he would on team radio at the time.

I nearly thought I overheard this, as there was noise around when I watched the race. But it's truth. Bottas' faith in Mercedes could be crushed and his facial expression on podium well explained by this event.

I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This just reads like if Bottas could have driven faster than he could have won the race, do you think that Mercedes have a chance of the WDC with Bottas?


Yes, suppose you are right there. But it just seems that too many people rate him lower because of his score. If Mercedes continue to force him to allow Hamilton to overtake all the time, then his points really will make him look worse than he actually is.

Even though it will be very unlikely, I still wouldn't say Mercedes have no chance of getting the WDC with Bottas. We don't yet know how much he may improve. It has only been 3 races with a totally new team.

By the time Mercedes have given Bottas all the chances he needs to show he is WDC material Vettel maybe long down the road?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:06 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Both Lewis and Bottas looked extremely unhappy after the race/on the podium.

Presumably they're both blaming the team - although probably for different reasons?


Hamilton has no one to blame but himself. A scruffy start under pressure yet again, something he was guilty of a lot last season. The pit lane blunder while under more pressure. Hamilton is not dependable when the heat is on, he makes a lot of mistakes. Seb by contrast is ice cool and just smoothly gets the job done.

It's easier to look better when the team is solely focused on you.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Both Lewis and Bottas looked extremely unhappy after the race/on the podium.

Presumably they're both blaming the team - although probably for different reasons?


Hamilton has no one to blame but himself. A scruffy start under pressure yet again, something he was guilty of a lot last season. The pit lane blunder while under more pressure. Hamilton is not dependable when the heat is on, he makes a lot of mistakes. Seb by contrast is ice cool and just smoothly gets the job done.

It's easier to look better when the team is solely focused on you.

Indeed. Which begs the question why Lewis was so flustered?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Both Lewis and Bottas looked extremely unhappy after the race/on the podium.

Presumably they're both blaming the team - although probably for different reasons?


Hamilton has no one to blame but himself. A scruffy start under pressure yet again, something he was guilty of a lot last season. The pit lane blunder while under more pressure. Hamilton is not dependable when the heat is on, he makes a lot of mistakes. Seb by contrast is ice cool and just smoothly gets the job done.

It's easier to look better when the team is solely focused on you.

Indeed. Which begs the question why Lewis was so flustered?

Flustered when?

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2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:24 pm 
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Well it looks like the writer of this page has a similar opinion to me:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/04/17/2 ... erformers/

Either that or they are facts which I actually think is more likely.

"A fine debut pole position for Valtteri Bottas didn’t lead to a win due to a combination of wrong tyre pressures in the first stint, a lack of rear grip later in the race and slow Mercedes pit stops."



Nothing was mentioned about Bottas not performing well. I to do think he car was more to blame for his weak performance this time.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:33 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well it looks like the writer of this page has a similar opinion to me:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/04/17/2 ... erformers/

Either that or they are facts which I actually think is more likely.

"A fine debut pole position for Valtteri Bottas didn’t lead to a win due to a combination of wrong tyre pressures in the first stint, a lack of rear grip later in the race and slow Mercedes pit stops."



Nothing was mentioned about Bottas not performing well. I to do think he car was more to blame for his weak performance this time.

The lack of rear grip is because he set his car up for qualifying in order basically to qualify on pole.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:50 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Fastest pitstops during the race:

Image
Source - http://www.twitter.com

Nice to see Williams at the top still!

And Mclaren in points!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Both Lewis and Bottas looked extremely unhappy after the race/on the podium.

Presumably they're both blaming the team - although probably for different reasons?


Hamilton has no one to blame but himself. A scruffy start under pressure yet again, something he was guilty of a lot last season. The pit lane blunder while under more pressure. Hamilton is not dependable when the heat is on, he makes a lot of mistakes. Seb by contrast is ice cool and just smoothly gets the job done.

It's easier to look better when the team is solely focused on you.

Indeed. Which begs the question why Lewis was so flustered?

Ah what???


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Both Lewis and Bottas looked extremely unhappy after the race/on the podium.

Presumably they're both blaming the team - although probably for different reasons?


Hamilton has no one to blame but himself. A scruffy start under pressure yet again, something he was guilty of a lot last season. The pit lane blunder while under more pressure. Hamilton is not dependable when the heat is on, he makes a lot of mistakes. Seb by contrast is ice cool and just smoothly gets the job done.

It's easier to look better when the team is solely focused on you.

Indeed. Which begs the question why Lewis was so flustered?

Flustered when?

I was just agreeing with you?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
I suspect both Merc. and Ferrari have already decided to designate No.1 and No. 2 drivers in view of the way Kimi let Seb by easily, and Bottas did the same for Lewis twice during the race.

It seems likely Ferrari realised their mistake (not letting the faster driver by) in China, and Merc. realised during this race.

Having said this, with a bit of luck I'm wrong - and both teams will only use team orders when one driver is clearly slower than the other.


Not that I would disagree with the basic idea of No.1 and No.2 drivers, just that in this race Kimi's driving and his objectives were completely irrelevant to Vettel's racing for the win (which he accomplished, after all). It would be rather an act of a "crime" if Kimi was to attempt to obstruct his teammate from winning the race just for the sake of it when he himself never had neither a pace nor a racing craft to contemplate a podium even.

You don't think that Kimi is the #2 driver with the strange strategies he is given, every race it seems he is in an argument over his strategy.

It feels like a dejavu of "RB sabotaging Webber on purpose" :-P

I would have though that's down to Kimi being overall poor so far this season (be it qualifying, bad starts or overtaking slower cars) and its not a case of Ferrari not wanting to win the Constructors title, because if you believe that Kimi is being given "strange strategies" on purpose, in a tight season where every single point might be decisive on who wins the constructors title, thats what it translates into to be honest.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:

Hamilton has no one to blame but himself. A scruffy start under pressure yet again, something he was guilty of a lot last season. The pit lane blunder while under more pressure. Hamilton is not dependable when the heat is on, he makes a lot of mistakes. Seb by contrast is ice cool and just smoothly gets the job done.

It's easier to look better when the team is solely focused on you.

Indeed. Which begs the question why Lewis was so flustered?

Flustered when?

I was just agreeing with you?

I wasn't referring to Hamilton's demeanour, things can run a lot smoother when you are free to use your own strategy without restriction in respect to your teammate.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
I suspect both Merc. and Ferrari have already decided to designate No.1 and No. 2 drivers in view of the way Kimi let Seb by easily, and Bottas did the same for Lewis twice during the race.

It seems likely Ferrari realised their mistake (not letting the faster driver by) in China, and Merc. realised during this race.

Having said this, with a bit of luck I'm wrong - and both teams will only use team orders when one driver is clearly slower than the other.


Not that I would disagree with the basic idea of No.1 and No.2 drivers, just that in this race Kimi's driving and his objectives were completely irrelevant to Vettel's racing for the win (which he accomplished, after all). It would be rather an act of a "crime" if Kimi was to attempt to obstruct his teammate from winning the race just for the sake of it when he himself never had neither a pace nor a racing craft to contemplate a podium even.


You don't think that Kimi is the #2 driver with the strange strategies he is given, every race it seems he is in an argument over his strategy.

It feels like a dejavu of "RB sabotaging Webber on purpose" :-P

I would have though that's down to Kimi being overall poor so far this season (be it qualifying, bad starts or overtaking slower cars) and its not a case of Ferrari not wanting to win the Constructors title, because if you believe that Kimi is being given "strange strategies" on purpose, in a tight season where every single point might be decisive on who wins the constructors title, thats what it translates into to be honest.

Kimi gets the short end of the stick it was quite obvious last year as well.

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's easier to look better when the team is solely focused on you.

Indeed. Which begs the question why Lewis was so flustered?

Flustered when?

I was just agreeing with you?

I wasn't referring to Hamilton's demeanour, things can run a lot smoother when you are free to use your own strategy without restriction in respect to your teammate.

Was Hamilton restricted in respect to Bottas?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Indeed. Which begs the question why Lewis was so flustered?

Flustered when?

I was just agreeing with you?

I wasn't referring to Hamilton's demeanour, things can run a lot smoother when you are free to use your own strategy without restriction in respect to your teammate.

Was Hamilton restricted in respect to Bottas?

For half the race yes, say the roles were reversed and Kimi was leading holding everyone up and Vettel was third, Vettel would still have pitted first.

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2013: 5th Place
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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Flustered when?

I was just agreeing with you?

I wasn't referring to Hamilton's demeanour, things can run a lot smoother when you are free to use your own strategy without restriction in respect to your teammate.

Was Hamilton restricted in respect to Bottas?

For half the race yes, say the roles were reversed and Kimi was leading holding everyone up and Vettel was third, Vettel would still have pitted first.

Agree that Mercedes should have pitted Hamilton earlier. I suspect it was more a case of rabbit in the headlights than anything else, though


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I was just agreeing with you?

I wasn't referring to Hamilton's demeanour, things can run a lot smoother when you are free to use your own strategy without restriction in respect to your teammate.

Was Hamilton restricted in respect to Bottas?

For half the race yes, say the roles were reversed and Kimi was leading holding everyone up and Vettel was third, Vettel would still have pitted first.

Agree that Mercedes should have pitted Hamilton earlier. I suspect it was more a case of rabbit in the headlights than anything else, though

Yes that's the terminology I nearly used earlier, they were totally out of their depth.

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:16 am 
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"If only I finished 1st, I would have won the race..." smh


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
Why didn't Mercedes order lewis to give back the position to bottas once it became obvious he couldn't win? Don't get me wrong, i think it was the correct move at the time but it's it's almost an unwritten rule, you move aside for your teammate and if he doesn't achieve the goal that you moved aside for, you get your position back at the end. I am sure i even heard lewis say he would on team radio at the time.

I nearly thought I overheard this, as there was noise around when I watched the race. But it's truth. Bottas' faith in Mercedes could be crushed and his facial expression on podium well explained by this event.

I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.

You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.


Yet, you persist in suggesting that they should cater to Lewis.
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
Why didn't Mercedes order lewis to give back the position to bottas once it became obvious he couldn't win? Don't get me wrong, i think it was the correct move at the time but it's it's almost an unwritten rule, you move aside for your teammate and if he doesn't achieve the goal that you moved aside for, you get your position back at the end. I am sure i even heard lewis say he would on team radio at the time.

I nearly thought I overheard this, as there was noise around when I watched the race. But it's truth. Bottas' faith in Mercedes could be crushed and his facial expression on podium well explained by this event.

I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.

You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

About giving the place back?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.


Yet, you persist in suggesting that they should cater to Lewis.
;)

Mercedes should cater to what's best for them and that's not letting another team win.

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2015: 3rd Place
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2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.


Yet, you persist in suggesting that they should cater to Lewis.
;)

Mercedes should cater to what's best for them and that's not letting another team win.


:lol:

I am sure that is what you believe, poker. They should cater to what you believe is best for Mercedes? You weren't concerned with what was best for Mercedes last year. Yo were wanting them to "cater" to Lewis, to ignore team policy. Do you remember?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
rivf1 wrote:
Why didn't Mercedes order lewis to give back the position to bottas once it became obvious he couldn't win? Don't get me wrong, i think it was the correct move at the time but it's it's almost an unwritten rule, you move aside for your teammate and if he doesn't achieve the goal that you moved aside for, you get your position back at the end. I am sure i even heard lewis say he would on team radio at the time.

I nearly thought I overheard this, as there was noise around when I watched the race. But it's truth. Bottas' faith in Mercedes could be crushed and his facial expression on podium well explained by this event.

I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.

You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:19 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.


Yet, you persist in suggesting that they should cater to Lewis.
;)

Mercedes should cater to what's best for them and that's not letting another team win.


:lol:

I am sure that is what you believe, poker. They should cater to what you believe is best for Mercedes? You weren't concerned with what was best for Mercedes last year. Yo were wanting them to "cater" to Lewis, to ignore team policy. Do you remember?

Exactly what were Mercedes going to lose, the WDC, the WCC, or a race they were leading?

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2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:32 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I nearly thought I overheard this, as there was noise around when I watched the race. But it's truth. Bottas' faith in Mercedes could be crushed and his facial expression on podium well explained by this event.

I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.

You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:43 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.


Yet, you persist in suggesting that they should cater to Lewis.
;)

Mercedes should cater to what's best for them and that's not letting another team win.


:lol:

I am sure that is what you believe, poker. They should cater to what you believe is best for Mercedes? You weren't concerned with what was best for Mercedes last year. Yo were wanting them to "cater" to Lewis, to ignore team policy. Do you remember?

Exactly what were Mercedes going to lose, the WDC, the WCC, or a race they were leading?


That isn't the point and you know it, poker. The point is that you are claiming Merc should do what is best for the team according to pokerman now ...ie cater to Lewis after only three races, when we all remember a recent time when your concern for Merc had nothing to do with anything but what you wanted for Lewis.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:

Yet, you persist in suggesting that they should cater to Lewis.
;)

Mercedes should cater to what's best for them and that's not letting another team win.


:lol:

I am sure that is what you believe, poker. They should cater to what you believe is best for Mercedes? You weren't concerned with what was best for Mercedes last year. Yo were wanting them to "cater" to Lewis, to ignore team policy. Do you remember?

Exactly what were Mercedes going to lose, the WDC, the WCC, or a race they were leading?


That isn't the point and you know it, poker. The point is that you are claiming Merc should do what is best for the team according to pokerman now ...ie cater to Lewis after only three races, when we all remember a recent time when your concern for Merc had nothing to do with anything but what you wanted for Lewis.

Mercedes had the titles won and the cars were running 1-2 in the race, what were Mercedes going to lose, whereas in Bahrain they were losing a race and the lead of the WDC, completely different scenarios.

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2017: Currently 14th

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:47 pm 
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It doesnt change your hypocrisy on the topic, poker. They followed their policy. Reinforced prior to the race. Thzt was what they thought was best for the team.

You wanted special treatment for Lewis. Now you want them to act in the best interest of the team and get behind... surprise, surprise... Lewis... after only three races.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:01 am 
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Blake wrote:
It doesnt change your hypocrisy on the topic, poker. They followed their policy. Reinforced prior to the race. Thzt was what they thought was best for the team.

You wanted special treatment for Lewis. Now you want them to act in the best interest of the team and get behind... surprise, surprise... Lewis... after only three races.

The two scenarios are completely different and every race is different, Bottas needs to show he has the speed not only to beat Hamilton but Vettel as well, if Bottas has the speed he wins the race simples.

There is nothing holding Bottas back here, there is no pre-ordained thing that Hamilton wins and Bottas doesn't.

Do you agree with what Mercedes did?

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Last edited by pokerman on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
It doesnt change your hypocrisy on the topic, poker. They followed their policy. Reinforced prior to the race. Thzt was what they thought was best for the team.

You wanted special treatment for Lewis. Now you want them to act in the best interest of the team and get behind... surprise, surprise... Lewis... after only three races.

The two scenarios are completely different and every race is different, Bottas needs to show he has the speed not only to beat Hamilton but Vettel as well, if Bottas has the speed he wins the race simples.

There is nothing holding Bottas back here, there is no ore-ordained thing that Hamilton wins and Bottas doesn't.

Do you agree with what Mercedes did?


I'm with Pokerman on this.
There is no hypocrisy on his part as the 2 scenarios are so different they could be in different solar systems.

The only thing Mercedes did wrong this last race was they made their decisions after the race had pretty much been won by Ferrari.
In a similar circumstance they need to think on their feet a little more.
They seem to have lost the art of thinking "what's my opponents best move and how do I counter it"
The season will be all the more interesting to see how Mercedes learn how to fight another team again instead of just within the team.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.

You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

And you clearly didn't read the full quote or just didn't understand it. The main issue was the pace. He understood the team orders.
Didn't Lewis also say he'd give the place back?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think Bottas should be more worried about his own performance, Mercedes are not there just to pacify him.

You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

I think the point being made is that it's alleged Hamilton promised to give the place back if he couldn't get past Vettel. But that didn't happen. So regardless of who is the better driver there may have been a breach of trust


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:44 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

And you clearly didn't read the full quote or just didn't understand it. The main issue was the pace. He understood the team orders.
Didn't Lewis also say he'd give the place back?

Did Mercedes order him to give the place back?

In a race that Mercedes totally got out strategised let's add insult to injury and make them look even more foolish by letting Ferrari increase the WDC lead.

Also regarding what Hamilton said, Mercedes have come out and said it was their decision to issue team orders not some kind of deal agreed with Hamilton, they didn't say to Hamilton ok will we will allow you to pass but if you don't win the race you must give the place back.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:46 am 
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Posts: 20196
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
You don't think that he is? Maybe evading the point perhaps?

About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

I think the point being made is that it's alleged Hamilton promised to give the place back if he couldn't get past Vettel. But that didn't happen. So regardless of who is the better driver there may have been a breach of trust

Yeah I've just answered that, there was actually no deal brokered between Hamilton and Mercedes.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:57 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 18567
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

I think the point being made is that it's alleged Hamilton promised to give the place back if he couldn't get past Vettel. But that didn't happen. So regardless of who is the better driver there may have been a breach of trust

Yeah I've just answered that, there was actually no deal brokered between Hamilton and Mercedes.

I'm sure someone said they heard it on the driver radio during the race? Wasn't it you?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 18567
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
About giving the place back?

Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

And you clearly didn't read the full quote or just didn't understand it. The main issue was the pace. He understood the team orders.
Didn't Lewis also say he'd give the place back?

Did Mercedes order him to give the place back?

In a race that Mercedes totally got out strategised let's add insult to injury and make them look even more foolish by letting Ferrari increase the WDC lead.

Also regarding what Hamilton said, Mercedes have come out and said it was their decision to issue team orders not some kind of deal agreed with Hamilton, they didn't say to Hamilton ok will we will allow you to pass but if you don't win the race you must give the place back.

do you have a link?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 20196
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

I think the point being made is that it's alleged Hamilton promised to give the place back if he couldn't get past Vettel. But that didn't happen. So regardless of who is the better driver there may have been a breach of trust

Yeah I've just answered that, there was actually no deal brokered between Hamilton and Mercedes.

I'm sure someone said they heard it on the driver radio during the race? Wasn't it you?

...were did you actually hear Mercedes say that if don't win the race then you must give the place back to Hamilton, it never happened.

Mercedes have gone on record as saying that the team order was made by themselves, it was their decision not Hamilton's.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 20196
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Indeed. Of course the top thing for Valtteri is to understand and overcome the issues of the last race but does that mean we can't talk about the other (for Bottas less important) aspects as well?
Or are you suggesting that you know how he thinks and that he is not sufficiently worried about his own performance?

He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

And you clearly didn't read the full quote or just didn't understand it. The main issue was the pace. He understood the team orders.
Didn't Lewis also say he'd give the place back?

Did Mercedes order him to give the place back?

In a race that Mercedes totally got out strategised let's add insult to injury and make them look even more foolish by letting Ferrari increase the WDC lead.

Also regarding what Hamilton said, Mercedes have come out and said it was their decision to issue team orders not some kind of deal agreed with Hamilton, they didn't say to Hamilton ok will we will allow you to pass but if you don't win the race you must give the place back.

do you have a link?

Do you have a link that Mercedes made a deal with Hamilton that he must give his place back to Bottas if he didn't win the race?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 18567
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He clearly stated that he wasn't happy about being given team orders, that seemed to be what prayed on him the most.

The funny thing about giving the place back is numerous posts about the preferential given to Hamilton, I don't think I ever seen a supposed #1 driver have to beg the team for the #2 driver to let him by?

The reality is that it would have been quite ridiculous for Hamilton to give the place both in terms of the WDC and also because Hamilton would have beat him anyway because it still wouldn't have altered Hamilton bearing down on Bottas at 2 seconds a lap quicker on a track were the overtaking delta was 1.3s.

And you clearly didn't read the full quote or just didn't understand it. The main issue was the pace. He understood the team orders.
Didn't Lewis also say he'd give the place back?

Did Mercedes order him to give the place back?

In a race that Mercedes totally got out strategised let's add insult to injury and make them look even more foolish by letting Ferrari increase the WDC lead.

Also regarding what Hamilton said, Mercedes have come out and said it was their decision to issue team orders not some kind of deal agreed with Hamilton, they didn't say to Hamilton ok will we will allow you to pass but if you don't win the race you must give the place back.

do you have a link?

Do you have a link that Mercedes made a deal with Hamilton that he must give his place back to Bottas if he didn't win the race?

No, I'm referring to what people are claiming on here. Now do you have a link to the above, please?


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