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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:37 am 
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Very sad news. :-((

11 year old Gonzalo Basurto Movila died at Alonso's karting track in northern Spain after an accident where the car flipped and ended up on top of the driver.

Fernando tweeted about the accident, saying he was awake in the middle of the night feeling devastated, and sending his support to the family.

[quote]Despierto de madrugada en uno de los días más tristes. Destrozado. Desde aquí, un abrazo enorme a la familia de Gonzalo y a todo el Karting.</quote>
https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 6366024704

http://www.espn.com/racing/story/_/id/1 ... onso-track


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:45 am 
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Very sad news, and so soon after the horrific accident in F4, it serves as a reminder that motorsport is still very dangerous. And for me, at least, it serves as a reminder of why it's worth sacrificing a bit of the 'raw' edge from racing if we can make accidents like these a rarity. Motorsport will never be safe, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:59 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Very sad news, and so soon after the horrific accident in F4, it serves as a reminder that motorsport is still very dangerous. And for me, at least, it serves as a reminder of why it's worth sacrificing a bit of the 'raw' edge from racing if we can make accidents like these a rarity. Motorsport will never be safe, but that doesn't mean we can't try.


I would dare say they are already a rarity given the dangerous nature of racing. It is especially hard to take though when the drivers involved are so young. I'm not going to pass judgement on other people's right to make choices, but I am a parent of a 10 year old. I can't picture my child racing a fast vehicle competitively under any circumstances. No matter how gifted. Maybe racing careers should start a little later even if that means it takes longer for the drivers to reach their potential. Maybe I am talking out of my ar5e and I just don't know enough about the subject, but 11 years old hits me as too young for that level of risk. There are good reasons why 16 is the youngest you can be to be on the road in charge of a motor vehicle.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:18 am 
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Alex53 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Very sad news, and so soon after the horrific accident in F4, it serves as a reminder that motorsport is still very dangerous. And for me, at least, it serves as a reminder of why it's worth sacrificing a bit of the 'raw' edge from racing if we can make accidents like these a rarity. Motorsport will never be safe, but that doesn't mean we can't try.


I would dare say they are already a rarity given the dangerous nature of racing. It is especially hard to take though when the drivers involved are so young. I'm not going to pass judgement on other people's right to make choices, but I am a parent of a 10 year old. I can't picture my child racing a fast vehicle competitively under any circumstances. No matter how gifted. Maybe racing careers should start a little later even if that means it takes longer for the drivers to reach their potential. Maybe I am talking out of my ar5e and I just don't know enough about the subject, but 11 years old hits me as too young for that level of risk. There are good reasons why 16 is the youngest you can be to be on the road in charge of a motor vehicle.


11 isn't particularly young for karting really. I think 9-12 is the cadet series. I think we often underestimate children and what they can do as we get older. I was racing karts at about 10 among other kids of my age and we were perfectly competent. Its not hard to driva a kart at 99%. That's what makes it so fun for the novice. I'm in my early 30's now and agree it feels way to young when you say 10 years old, but actually doing it as a 10 year old is not a problem.

Hard as it is I think allowing children to enjoy a certain level of risk is no bad thing. In terms of risk percentage I doubt karting is the riskiest thing a lot of young children do.

Edit - I bet more young children get seriously hurt by dogs than karts but most parents wouldn't be horrified to think their child was within 100 yards of a dog.

Just using that as an example. Probably loads more. As a cause of death karting is pretty rare, almost never happens.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Very sad news, and so soon after the horrific accident in F4, it serves as a reminder that motorsport is still very dangerous. And for me, at least, it serves as a reminder of why it's worth sacrificing a bit of the 'raw' edge from racing if we can make accidents like these a rarity. Motorsport will never be safe, but that doesn't mean we can't try.


I would dare say they are already a rarity given the dangerous nature of racing. It is especially hard to take though when the drivers involved are so young. I'm not going to pass judgement on other people's right to make choices, but I am a parent of a 10 year old. I can't picture my child racing a fast vehicle competitively under any circumstances. No matter how gifted. Maybe racing careers should start a little later even if that means it takes longer for the drivers to reach their potential. Maybe I am talking out of my ar5e and I just don't know enough about the subject, but 11 years old hits me as too young for that level of risk. There are good reasons why 16 is the youngest you can be to be on the road in charge of a motor vehicle.


11 isn't particularly young for karting really. I think 9-12 is the cadet series. I think we often underestimate children and what they can do as we get older. I was racing karts at about 10 among other kids of my age and we were perfectly competent. Its not hard to driva a kart at 99%. That's what makes it so fun for the novice. I'm in my early 30's now and agree it feels way to young when you say 10 years old, but actually doing it as a 10 year old is not a problem.

Hard as it is I think allowing children to enjoy a certain level of risk is no bad thing. In terms of risk percentage I doubt karting is the riskiest thing a lot of young children do.

Edit - I bet more young children get seriously hurt by dogs than karts but most parents wouldn't be horrified to think their child was within 100 yards of a dog.

Just using that as an example. Probably loads more. As a cause of death karting is pretty rare, almost never happens.


I would agree that there are certainly other sports, especially anything equine related, that have far more deaths and serious injuries each year. Motor sports are by comparison relatively safe but each time we hear of tragic incidents like this it does bring home that no matter how much you try to makes things as safe as possible accidents can and will happen.
You will never be able to predict every possible eventuality but these guys know the risks and they take them because of their love for the sport and they should be given a certain amount of respect for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:06 pm 
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A young child, not even close to living a full life has been extinguished in a tragic moment. This is so sad it pains me tremendously.

Motorsport is inherently dangerous, it always is when so much energy is involved. That is why, for any series we must never stop moving forward in safety.

I do not have children, but if I did, I would actually (barring the costs) allow my children to participate in youth racing programs. My logic is simple, children find ways to live dangerously, I would rather channel this energy and teach them from an early age about safety. I remember at that age I was finding new ways to kill myself each day. If it was not climbing to the very top of tall trees to barrelling down very steep and rocky hills with my friends on our bicycles it was always some activity I now realize to be very dangerous..

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Very sad news, and so soon after the horrific accident in F4, it serves as a reminder that motorsport is still very dangerous. And for me, at least, it serves as a reminder of why it's worth sacrificing a bit of the 'raw' edge from racing if we can make accidents like these a rarity. Motorsport will never be safe, but that doesn't mean we can't try.

I would dare say they are already a rarity given the dangerous nature of racing. It is especially hard to take though when the drivers involved are so young. I'm not going to pass judgement on other people's right to make choices, but I am a parent of a 10 year old. I can't picture my child racing a fast vehicle competitively under any circumstances. No matter how gifted. Maybe racing careers should start a little later even if that means it takes longer for the drivers to reach their potential. Maybe I am talking out of my ar5e and I just don't know enough about the subject, but 11 years old hits me as too young for that level of risk. There are good reasons why 16 is the youngest you can be to be on the road in charge of a motor vehicle.

The problem is that if you don't let your child start karting until they're a teenager, you've eliminated any possibility of them competing at the highest level. It's no coincidence that all the F1 drivers now started karting when they were in single digits; if your competitors are going to have that advantage, you need to have it, too.

I agree it's a bit of a rotten system, not least because the decision to get started in racing cannot come from the child - it's one of the few sports where your success or failure is almost wholly decided by what your parents are willing and able to let you do.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:50 pm 
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What I can say is that the physique of these young karters are too thin. Especially for the 9-12 year olds. This is the time to place any type of protection like the Moto-cross riders.

The worse part is to see a parent outlive a sibling.

I may not be a father but all I can say: Good-bye son!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:51 pm 
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I wouldn't have a problem with a child of mine karting, provided I felt all necessary safety measures were in place.

As a hobby it is dangerous to an extent but probably no more so than winter sports, equestrian, trampolines or cycling. They tend to receive less publicity because deaths and serious injuries tend to be less dramatic, from a media 'spectator' point of view.

Nether the less, RIP to this young boy.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:46 am 
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Karts, without any form of roll over structure are inherently more dangerous than a race vehicle with a roll over structure.

In the US 1/4 Midgets are race cars for kids from 5 -15.

[Unsourced image removed]

Racing for kids is about learning car control to the point where the actions necessary to push the limit are second nature to the drivers.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:32 am 
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mmi16 wrote:
Karts, without any form of roll over structure are inherently more dangerous than a race vehicle with a roll over structure.

In the US 1/4 Midgets are race cars for kids from 5 -15.

[Unsourced image removed]

Racing for kids is about learning car control to the point where the actions necessary to push the limit are second nature to the drivers.


This. At least a roll structure!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Karts, without any form of roll over structure are inherently more dangerous than a race vehicle with a roll over structure.

In the US 1/4 Midgets are race cars for kids from 5 -15.

[Unsourced image removed]

Racing for kids is about learning car control to the point where the actions necessary to push the limit are second nature to the drivers.


This. At least a roll structure!

And seatbelts. Knowing the speed these karts can reach and yet not being strapped in is ludicrous. From karting to F4 to F1, safety needs to be paramount in all areas, not just the higher echelons of the sport.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:23 pm 
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I raced 100cc karts at roughly this age, perhaps 12 or 13. I don't ever remember a time where i felt in over my head or without control, though it only took one race for my mother to decide she was never coming to watch again.

I agree with the comments above though that a 12 year old now looks like a baby to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:40 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Karts, without any form of roll over structure are inherently more dangerous than a race vehicle with a roll over structure.

In the US 1/4 Midgets are race cars for kids from 5 -15.

[Unsourced image removed]

Racing for kids is about learning car control to the point where the actions necessary to push the limit are second nature to the drivers.


This. At least a roll structure!

And seatbelts. Knowing the speed these karts can reach and yet not being strapped in is ludicrous. From karting to F4 to F1, safety needs to be paramount in all areas, not just the higher echelons of the sport.

You obviously don't have experience in Karting. Karting is such that the car is baron and bare and because the driver is so exposed, it makes more sense to NOT have the driver strapped in. In an incident where the kart flips over and lands upside down, the driver's head and shoulders would act as the roll hood and that would lead to more injuries and deaths. The best system is as it is. This way if the kart is flipping the driver is ejected and only has their own weight to deal with. If they're strapped in, they would have the weight of the kart to contend with as well and if you know anything about physics you'd know that anything moving at a rate of speed has it's mass multiplied several times over. So a kart landing on the driver at 50MPH would place approximately 5x the weight of the kart on him. Average Kart weight being 165-175lbs, that's roughly 850 landing on a driver, plus their weight.

Hence why it is better to not be strapped in on a kart.

There are CF seats out there that wrap around to the front to keep the driver more secure, but then you run into the same issue of being trapped instead of thrown clear. It's literally the most catch 22 of catch 22's, but better to have a decent chance than a minute one.

Roll cages like those pictured above give a false sense of security and lead to more accidents at higher speeds and the cages can catch on things and cause violent whipping and twirling that cause even more damage and potentially injuries. I've watched enough sprint and midget races in my lifetime and even the pros succumb to this phenomenon consistently. Sort of the nature of the beast and in karts I wouldn't put it too far behind.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:10 am 
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I've always thought karting to be the most dangerous of all motor sports because of the very exposed and vulnerable driving position with almost no protection from ingress or collision. I'm constantly surprised that there aren't more of these kinds of accidents or that this category of racing has been prevented from evolving into something with more protection.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:25 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Karts, without any form of roll over structure are inherently more dangerous than a race vehicle with a roll over structure.

In the US 1/4 Midgets are race cars for kids from 5 -15.

[Unsourced image removed]

Racing for kids is about learning car control to the point where the actions necessary to push the limit are second nature to the drivers.


This. At least a roll structure!

And seatbelts. Knowing the speed these karts can reach and yet not being strapped in is ludicrous. From karting to F4 to F1, safety needs to be paramount in all areas, not just the higher echelons of the sport.

You obviously don't have experience in Karting. Karting is such that the car is baron and bare and because the driver is so exposed, it makes more sense to NOT have the driver strapped in. In an incident where the kart flips over and lands upside down, the driver's head and shoulders would act as the roll hood and that would lead to more injuries and deaths. The best system is as it is. This way if the kart is flipping the driver is ejected and only has their own weight to deal with. If they're strapped in, they would have the weight of the kart to contend with as well and if you know anything about physics you'd know that anything moving at a rate of speed has it's mass multiplied several times over. So a kart landing on the driver at 50MPH would place approximately 5x the weight of the kart on him. Average Kart weight being 165-175lbs, that's roughly 850 landing on a driver, plus their weight.

Hence why it is better to not be strapped in on a kart.

There are CF seats out there that wrap around to the front to keep the driver more secure, but then you run into the same issue of being trapped instead of thrown clear. It's literally the most catch 22 of catch 22's, but better to have a decent chance than a minute one.

Roll cages like those pictured above give a false sense of security and lead to more accidents at higher speeds and the cages can catch on things and cause violent whipping and twirling that cause even more damage and potentially injuries. I've watched enough sprint and midget races in my lifetime and even the pros succumb to this phenomenon consistently. Sort of the nature of the beast and in karts I wouldn't put it too far behind.


IF you're right, then I have to say its crazy to have little kids racing them. I accept the dangers of motorsport from the logic that the driver knows the risks and is doing what he loves, but how can an 8 or 10 year old give his consent to the danger at an age when he doesn't understand risk or mortality.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:34 am 
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Alex53 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Karts, without any form of roll over structure are inherently more dangerous than a race vehicle with a roll over structure.

In the US 1/4 Midgets are race cars for kids from 5 -15.

[Unsourced image removed]

Racing for kids is about learning car control to the point where the actions necessary to push the limit are second nature to the drivers.


This. At least a roll structure!

And seatbelts. Knowing the speed these karts can reach and yet not being strapped in is ludicrous. From karting to F4 to F1, safety needs to be paramount in all areas, not just the higher echelons of the sport.

You obviously don't have experience in Karting. Karting is such that the car is baron and bare and because the driver is so exposed, it makes more sense to NOT have the driver strapped in. In an incident where the kart flips over and lands upside down, the driver's head and shoulders would act as the roll hood and that would lead to more injuries and deaths. The best system is as it is. This way if the kart is flipping the driver is ejected and only has their own weight to deal with. If they're strapped in, they would have the weight of the kart to contend with as well and if you know anything about physics you'd know that anything moving at a rate of speed has it's mass multiplied several times over. So a kart landing on the driver at 50MPH would place approximately 5x the weight of the kart on him. Average Kart weight being 165-175lbs, that's roughly 850 landing on a driver, plus their weight.

Hence why it is better to not be strapped in on a kart.

There are CF seats out there that wrap around to the front to keep the driver more secure, but then you run into the same issue of being trapped instead of thrown clear. It's literally the most catch 22 of catch 22's, but better to have a decent chance than a minute one.

Roll cages like those pictured above give a false sense of security and lead to more accidents at higher speeds and the cages can catch on things and cause violent whipping and twirling that cause even more damage and potentially injuries. I've watched enough sprint and midget races in my lifetime and even the pros succumb to this phenomenon consistently. Sort of the nature of the beast and in karts I wouldn't put it too far behind.


IF you're right, then I have to say its crazy to have little kids racing them. I accept the dangers of motorsport from the logic that the driver knows the risks and is doing what he loves, but how can an 8 or 10 year old give his consent to the danger at an age when he doesn't understand risk or mortality.


Putting this in perspective, a 5 year old girl living near me was left with her leg paralised after falling down 3 6inch steps not so long ago.

Accidents happen even if you stay at home. Not making light of it, just saying you can not account for everything.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Absolutely Moby.

I mean in life there are astonishing occurrences that come about purely by chance. about 20 years ago a young woman who was a fairly new mother was playing with her 1.5 year old baby, running around the house and she thought she'd hide and pop out from behind the door with the exact same BOO! every parent does with their kids, and wouldn't you know it, the spook caused her baby to have a heart attack and he died. It was an awful thing that happened but no one could have foreseen it. It happens.

Look at my favorite MotoGP rider of all time… He raced motorcycles on the edge from the time he was a tween and had several crashes throughout his career and was never seriously injured, and then one day he's out and about riding a scooter of all things and had some idiot make an illegal U-turn with a big truck, right in front of him, and he crashed into the truck and died.

Michael Schumacher races an entire lifetime and becomes the most successful and arguably the greatest F1 driver of all time and helps someone up from the snow and as he's turning to continue his day, slips and bangs his head on a rock just right (with a helmet mind you), and he nearly loses his life and is said to be in a very compromised state and will never be the same fearsome person the world came to know and adore.

As for kids racing karts, the speeds are nowhere near as fast in their younger years. Their karts are just fast enough to break traction in certain scenarios so they are able to find that limit easier. As they mature, learn and grow, they graduate to the next tier all the way through the different classes and age groups. They're not just thrown into it and told go, go, Goooooo! It's a VERY long and timely process and those whom are clearly a cut above the rest jump through the ranks and they are the ones we see featured in the Open-Wheel type series around the globe. And for the record, kids have no idea of what calculated risks are which is why they have little to no fear of anything. That's what enables them to jump on bicycles, skateboards, and odd things like ripsticks and do well on them almost immediately. They only know how to try things and most kids are pretty determined and most of them push the envelope of limits.

Kids like Billy Monger are able to do things behind the wheel that most racing instructors couldn't begin to understand how to do. They are trained professionals.

I will tell you that as far as the danger element in sports go many sports you might think are no big deal are some of the most risky for kids to participate in, yet many millions more partake in those than they do karting, and neither the kids, nor the parents are aware of the statistical data surrounding injury and mortality rates. And if I was to tell you to look into cheer leading, you'd probably think I was out of my mind, so I'm now telling you that more kids are hurt, injured and die from cheer leading than any motorsport, including karting.

That's why it's unfair to say parents are being irresponsible in allowing their children race karts. They can get hurt or killed doing the simplest of things, and while we all dread that, we can't keep them from doing things because we're afraid they're going to get hurt. That deprives them of learning new things and enjoying new experiences and that would be a travesty.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:25 pm 
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I hate hearing these stories, especially at such a young age. I happen to have a kart race in 2 days. I have broken my ribs twice, but that is the extent of my injuries so far. These karts don't usually flip, but when they do, it can be scary.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Placid wrote:
What I can say is that the physique of these young karters are too thin. Especially for the 9-12 year olds. This is the time to place any type of protection like the Moto-cross riders.

The worse part is to see a parent outlive a sibling.

I may not be a father but all I can say: Good-bye son!!!!


They can wear more gear. it depends on the organization. Most require you to wear high top shoes, elbows and knees covered and some even require rib protection and either a neck roll or a hans type device. Of course helmet, eye protection and gloves are required. I also ride MX, but the MX equip is different for different purposes. In a Kart it is very very rare to ever flip and when you land on your head even a Hans type device isn't a sure protection from injury. I don't know the details of this case, so I am not sure how it happened.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Alonso is wearing his sticker on his helmet this weekend, probably the duration of the season. Sad it happened on his track.

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