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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
So this seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the laws of physics now. Hamilton did not complete the move "in a shorter period of time". He braked later than Vettel did. He was able to do so because he was on the outside of the track and could carry more speed through the corner. Vettel was on the grass on the inside at one point during his pass. He had to brake much sooner and slow down much more. Hamilton was not "traveling faster" he was just able to take the corner basically from the racing line while Vettel was way off line on the inside.

which doesn't really explain why Vettel was surprised at the speed Hamilton passed him. You'd think an F1 driver would understand about speed differences under braking...

What does that even mean? What substance is there to what you just said? How do you know Vettel was surprised? I see no evidence of that at all.

I'll go ahead and assume that you're referring to his comment about Hamilton going by "like a train" that he made on the radio? This does not indicate that he was surprised by the speed difference. Perhaps he was and perhaps he wasn't but the message indicates to me that he was frustrated that, in his opinion, he couldn't really do anything to keep Lewis behind. Even that is just my interpretation of a heat-of-the-moment comment. Rather than discussing our respective interpretations of anecdotal evidence, I'd prefer to deal with facts.

OK. It's an irrefutable fact that Hamilton completed his move before turning in. It's an irrefutable fact that Vettel was still alongside Bottas at the end of the straight. So logically Hamilton must have been faster. If he was slower, that sequence couldn't have happened.

See, the difference is I provide facts and commentary on the actual incident, not try to throw in data from wholly unrelated sessions and try to pass them off as proof of some kind

Again you don't seem to understand basic physics as you are looking at time under braking as though it is time under acceleration. Vettel was on the brakes as Hamilton completed the pass. That's what you don't seem to understand. For Vettel's pass, he and Bottas braked at roughly the same time because Vettel was on the inside. This is the fundamental difference between passing on the inside and passing on the outside. Your concept of "facts" is scary to be blunt.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:03 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Again you don't seem to understand basic physics as you are looking at time under braking as though it is time under acceleration. Vettel was on the brakes as Hamilton completed the pass. That's what you don't seem to understand. For Vettel's pass, he and Bottas braked at roughly the same time because Vettel was on the inside. This is the fundamental difference between passing on the inside and passing on the outside. Your concept of "facts" is scary to be blunt.


I don't know what race you were watching, but Hamilton was clear of Vettel much before they started braking for the corner.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:06 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Again you don't seem to understand basic physics as you are looking at time under braking as though it is time under acceleration. Vettel was on the brakes as Hamilton completed the pass. That's what you don't seem to understand. For Vettel's pass, he and Bottas braked at roughly the same time because Vettel was on the inside. This is the fundamental difference between passing on the inside and passing on the outside. Your concept of "facts" is scary to be blunt.


I don't know what race you were watching, but Hamilton was clear of Vettel much before they started braking for the corner.

Hamilton is clear before Hamilton starts braking for the corner. Vettel is on the brakes before him as he is on the inside. I even provide a video and people don't seem to be willing to watch it...


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:

Vettel tells Hamilton he was shocked by the race winner’s speed down the straight
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/2017/may/14/f1-spanish-grand-prix-live

Hadn't seen that. You actually provided something. :o I'll assume the Guardian's tweet is accurate.

I can't tell you why he was surprised but I'm not sure it really matters.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:11 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
You do realize that there is a very clear history of what you've said in this thread I hope.

The difference (as I've explained many times) is that Bottas did not position himself on the inside the way Vettel did for Hamilton. If Vettel tried to go around the outside, he would have had Bottas right alongside and Valteri might have been able to outbrake him and then push him off on exit. Vettel still could have gone to the outside and tried it but he decided to try the inside instead. That's why he had to brake earlier. Vettel's defense on Hamilton took away the inside line while Bottas's defense on Vettel did not.


That't exactly why I can make the claim that you twist my words and didn't even try to understand.

You don't really understand that Vettel had no chance to defend and probably knew that if you listened to him while Bottas ruined his tires defending the way he did and had the car to do it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:24 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You do realize that there is a very clear history of what you've said in this thread I hope.

The difference (as I've explained many times) is that Bottas did not position himself on the inside the way Vettel did for Hamilton. If Vettel tried to go around the outside, he would have had Bottas right alongside and Valteri might have been able to outbrake him and then push him off on exit. Vettel still could have gone to the outside and tried it but he decided to try the inside instead. That's why he had to brake earlier. Vettel's defense on Hamilton took away the inside line while Bottas's defense on Vettel did not.


That't exactly why I can make the claim that you twist my words and didn't even try to understand.

You don't really understand that Vettel had no chance to defend and probably knew that if you listened to him while Bottas ruined his tires defending the way he did and had the car to do it.

I didn't twist anything. I responded to your exact words.

With regards to the bolded part; so now it's about the car? Bottas on tires that had reached the cliff was able to defend better than Vettel on brand new tires? Vettel could have positioned his car in the middle of the track like Bottas did; in which case, Hamilton would have had to go up the inside like Vettel did on Bottas. Hamilton would have braked earlier and been side by side with Vettel instead of clear of him going into turn 1.

Anyway, I can't do this anymore. Gotta go.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:33 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I didn't twist anything. I responded to your exact words.

With regards to the bolded part; so now it's about the car? Bottas on tires that had reached the cliff was able to defend better than Vettel on brand new tires? Vettel could have positioned his car in the middle of the track like Bottas did; in which case, Hamilton would have had to go up the inside like Vettel did on Bottas. Hamilton would have braked earlier and been side by side with Vettel instead of clear of him going into turn 1.

Anyway, I can't do this anymore. Gotta go.


My words; "there haven't been many overtakes on a Merc om a straight since 2013"
Yours; "You just said that a Mercedes hasn't been overtaken on a straight since 2013 so I did a quick youtube search for the 2013"

Can you spot your mistakes?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Massa did drive for Ferrari for 8 years and is quite well qualified to understand how they operate, I'm not sure anyone would be as qualified to give that opinion regarding Bottas and Hamilton, perhaps only Rosberg?


So, where have you(and Massa) been throughout the 2016 season when Kimi beat Vettel in several races?

Rosberg? Yes. Using similar reasoning, one could say that Rosberg found out 1st hand (very early on in 2013 season) by Brown's divine intervention that he would not be allowed to beat Hamilton and only the fact that Mercedes later became dominant put an end to it... as evidenced by the fact that this season that their domination has ended, the signs of Mercedes using a Nr1 driver policy this season are pretty strong.

But any other team enjoying a supremacy similar to that of Mercedes 2014 - 2016, would have given their drivers equal status too, including Ferrari.
And things change, and if Kimi isnt really allowed to beat Vettel, Bottas wont be allowed to beat Hamilton, even more so, not only because Bottas seems closer to Lewis than Kimi to Vettel, but past history and fantasies apart, what has really happen on track so far this reason points at that.

Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.

We that post on here are far removed from what happens in F1 as opposed to those that work in the F1 paddock and I've heard several of these people state that Vettel is the #1 driver at Ferrari but none have said that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes although some have said he should be made the #1 driver.


There were good grounds to think the same regarding Hamilton in 2013 too, but yeah, the british media/pundits (the same ones that told you that Vettel has the priority over strategy) found a way around that, and of course, when it comes to a german driver who cast a shadow over the local hero for a few years, they wont spare the speculations... heck, even Hamilton himself did not spare the speculations over Vettel's status at Ferrari.

Sometimes, you dont even need to be a paddock guy to come to a more reasonable conclusion, in comparison with the conclusions based on speculations and distorted by nationalistic bias from some media's people working in the paddock, or even certain driver just to have himself look better than the competition.

Its one thing saying that Ferrari will prioritize Vettel since he`s shown to be more likely to beat the Mercedes drivers this season (and I have no doubt that Ferrari will do so), and totally another thing saying that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel... and I'm still wondering, is that what Massa has really said, or simply your interpretations of the 1st instance?

Also, are you sure that Ross Brawn lost his job because of his team orders against Rosberg?
In his own book(I read a summary), Brawn simply revealed that "he left Mercedes because he felt he could not trust Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda, who had been made Mercedes; motorsport boss and non-executive chairman respectively by the manufacturer." and then goes to lengthy explanations about the power play, with good indications that he got unhappy with how things were run at the highest level, the appointment of Paddy Lowe ect... and not the slightest of hints that it may have had anything to do with his team orders against Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:07 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Again you don't seem to understand basic physics as you are looking at time under braking as though it is time under acceleration. Vettel was on the brakes as Hamilton completed the pass. That's what you don't seem to understand. For Vettel's pass, he and Bottas braked at roughly the same time because Vettel was on the inside. This is the fundamental difference between passing on the inside and passing on the outside. Your concept of "facts" is scary to be blunt.


I think it's logical to assume that Vettel would not be trying the risky double-feign move to get on the inside of Bottas if he had any chance of just cruising by on the outside like Hamilton did to him. I doubt that with Vettel's ability getting on the brakes late from the optimum racing line would present any problem, don't you? Hamilton was clear by a mile at the breaking point.

This video nicely shows from how far back Lewis caught up to Seb and how early and easily he cleared him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaO58uYp5As

Also for reference, here's Vettel's move. It actually seems like he starts out closer to Bottas (it's hard to tell), but the car doesn't build nearly the type of momentum that Hamilton's Merc did. Either Mercedes is very fast without DRS or Ferrari is relatively slow with DRS, but it looks fairly clear. Vettel could not hope to complete a pass on the outside the way Hamilton did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AT4OfJMyS0


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:12 pm 
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I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

I'm afraid these don't mean anything at all. They don't tell you how light the car was at the time they were clocked, or the tyre life, or more importantly if there was sleap streaming involved.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:53 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers

I don't think it's quite there with Mercedes yet, if Bottas wins Monaco then it tilts the other way, I think if Mercedes were to see a definite team order given against Kimi then that might speed up their own thinking on the matter, but Kimi thus far has not been any threat to Vettel whatsoever.

How does it tilt the other way? Even if Bottas wins and Hamilton crashes out the latter would still be ahead in the points and would remain the best option for Mercedes to win the title.

It would take a lot more than a win at Monaco to give Bottas an equal seat at Mercedes, IMO. No reflection on Bottas, but Mercedes is a business and they will put their eggs in the basket that favours a decent result. Hamilton is proven, Bottas isn't. I think he'd have to step up enormously to be an effective contender.

Well I still think it's in the balance as far as Mercedes are concerned.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:05 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

I'm afraid these don't mean anything at all. They don't tell you how light the car was at the time they were clocked, or the tyre life, or more importantly if there was sleap streaming involved.


I did mention that but it's worth showing until we get the time stamped ones anyway as it's being discussed.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:55 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He became marginalised within the team, they brought in Paddy Lowe to do a job that Brawn was already doing and he left at the end of the season.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:09 am 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Massa did drive for Ferrari for 8 years and is quite well qualified to understand how they operate, I'm not sure anyone would be as qualified to give that opinion regarding Bottas and Hamilton, perhaps only Rosberg?


So, where have you(and Massa) been throughout the 2016 season when Kimi beat Vettel in several races?

Rosberg? Yes. Using similar reasoning, one could say that Rosberg found out 1st hand (very early on in 2013 season) by Brown's divine intervention that he would not be allowed to beat Hamilton and only the fact that Mercedes later became dominant put an end to it... as evidenced by the fact that this season that their domination has ended, the signs of Mercedes using a Nr1 driver policy this season are pretty strong.

But any other team enjoying a supremacy similar to that of Mercedes 2014 - 2016, would have given their drivers equal status too, including Ferrari.
And things change, and if Kimi isnt really allowed to beat Vettel, Bottas wont be allowed to beat Hamilton, even more so, not only because Bottas seems closer to Lewis than Kimi to Vettel, but past history and fantasies apart, what has really happen on track so far this reason points at that.

Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.

We that post on here are far removed from what happens in F1 as opposed to those that work in the F1 paddock and I've heard several of these people state that Vettel is the #1 driver at Ferrari but none have said that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes although some have said he should be made the #1 driver.


There were good grounds to think the same regarding Hamilton in 2013 too, but yeah, the british media/pundits (the same ones that told you that Vettel has the priority over strategy) found a way around that, and of course, when it comes to a german driver who cast a shadow over the local hero for a few years, they wont spare the speculations... heck, even Hamilton himself did not spare the speculations over Vettel's status at Ferrari.

Sometimes, you dont even need to be a paddock guy to come to a more reasonable conclusion, in comparison with the conclusions based on speculations and distorted by nationalistic bias from some media's people working in the paddock, or even certain driver just to have himself look better than the competition.

Its one thing saying that Ferrari will prioritize Vettel since he`s shown to be more likely to beat the Mercedes drivers this season (and I have no doubt that Ferrari will do so), and totally another thing saying that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel... and I'm still wondering, is that what Massa has really said, or simply your interpretations of the 1st instance?

Also, are you sure that Ross Brawn lost his job because of his team orders against Rosberg?
In his own book(I read a summary), Brawn simply revealed that "he left Mercedes because he felt he could not trust Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda, who had been made Mercedes; motorsport boss and non-executive chairman respectively by the manufacturer." and then goes to lengthy explanations about the power play, with good indications that he got unhappy with how things were run at the highest level, the appointment of Paddy Lowe ect... and not the slightest of hints that it may have had anything to do with his team orders against Rosberg.

After Brawn issued the team order against Rosberg, a German in a German owned team, the owners were not happy at all and needless to say we never saw such a thing happen again that year.

So why did Mercedes need Paddy Lowe when they already had Brawn and why would Mercedes become an environment were Brawn could no longer work in, what did the architect of what we see now with Mercedes do wrong that he lost control of the team from the pit wall?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He became marginalised within the team, they brought in Paddy Lowe to do a job that Brawn was already doing and he left at the end of the season.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:20 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

I'm afraid these don't mean anything at all. They don't tell you how light the car was at the time they were clocked, or the tyre life, or more importantly if there was sleap streaming involved.

They do at least show that you can't just transpose qualifying speed trap times onto the race and use them as a basis for claiming which car is faster


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:22 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

With time stamps:

Code:
1 19 F. MASSA 339.6 15:36:45
2 8 R. GROSJEAN 338.9 14:58:14
3 44 L. HAMILTON 338.4 14:59:47
4 18 L. STROLL 335.0 14:07:57
5 5 S. VETTEL 334.9 14:36:40


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
After Brawn issued the team order against Rosberg, a German in a German owned team, the owners were not happy at all and needless to say we never saw such a thing happen again that year.

So why did Mercedes need Paddy Lowe when they already had Brawn and why would Mercedes become an environment were Brawn could no longer work in, what did the architect of what we see now with Mercedes do wrong that he lost control of the team from the pit wall?


I also heard they ordered that Brawn's dog be killed after the team order to hold station was issued - those Germans, I tell you!

I also heard Lowe (who is English) was forced out to Williams, an English team because the Germans weren't happy that Lewis (an Englishman) won 2 titles in a German team. I have also heard rumours about Toto and Niki (both Austrians) having Nazi-themed orgies.....oh wait, that was the Englishman, Max Mosley.

You say such ridiculous stuff sometimes :lol:


Last edited by A.J. on Thu May 18, 2017 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:55 am 
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A.J. wrote:
pokerman wrote:
After Brawn issued the team order against Rosberg, a German in a German owned team, the owners were not happy at all and needless to say we never saw such a thing happen again that year.

So why did Mercedes need Paddy Lowe when they already had Brawn and why would Mercedes become an environment were Brawn could no longer work in, what did the architect of what we see now with Mercedes do wrong that he lost control of the team from the pit wall?


I also heard they ordered that Brawn's dog be killed after the team order to hold station was issued - those Germans, I tell you!

I also heard Lowe (who is English) was forced out to Williams, an English team because the Germans weren't happy that an Lewis (an Englishman) won 2 titles in a German team. I have also heard rumours about Toto and Niki (both Austrians) having Nazi-themed orgies.....oh wait, that was the Englishman, Max Mosley.

You say such ridiculous stuff sometimes :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:27 am 
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Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

I'm afraid these don't mean anything at all. They don't tell you how light the car was at the time they were clocked, or the tyre life, or more importantly if there was sleap streaming involved.

They do at least show that you can't just transpose qualifying speed trap times onto the race and use them as a basis for claiming which car is faster


I am not so sure, they are the purest numbers because every top speed figure in the race is reliant on slip streaming. Every driver will post there highest top speed when getting a slipstream and DRS in a race and it depends on how good of a tow they actually got at that point, half straight, full straight etc and even which car they were getting a tow from and that cars top speed in clean air.

Also, top speed will also be reliant on tyre life and last corner exit at most tracks;
-new tyres
-soft compound
- late in race (lighter car)
- slipstream length

All these giving the best chance for highest speed. At least in qualifying everybody is without slipstream, on the same tyre with the same age tyre. Note Alonso set one of the highest speeds in Spain due to the above factors all going in his favour.

There is also top speed with and without DRS. Some teams might have a more efficient DRS than others. So without DRS one car might top the charts but with it another car might top the charts.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:57 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

The problem is that race circumstances are totally unreliable. You have massive variations in the weight of the car over the course of the race. You have variations in engine settings, variations in tire compound and tire life. You have potentially a car giving you a tow and/or DRS, etc. During qualifying, you are seeing all of the teams using the setup that they are using for the race and going as quickly as they can go in clean air. That is a reliable indicator of who's car is the fastest down the straight overall.

Taking trap numbers for the race is unreliable. For example, you can look at Bottas's trap number for the race and you'll see it's 322 kph. That's not very high at all but of course it's influenced by the fact that he didn't make it to the end of the race.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He became marginalised within the team, they brought in Paddy Lowe to do a job that Brawn was already doing and he left at the end of the season.

:lol:

Why did they need Paddy Lowe when they already had Ross Brawn?

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:16 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
pokerman wrote:
After Brawn issued the team order against Rosberg, a German in a German owned team, the owners were not happy at all and needless to say we never saw such a thing happen again that year.

So why did Mercedes need Paddy Lowe when they already had Brawn and why would Mercedes become an environment were Brawn could no longer work in, what did the architect of what we see now with Mercedes do wrong that he lost control of the team from the pit wall?


I also heard they ordered that Brawn's dog be killed after the team order to hold station was issued - those Germans, I tell you!

I also heard Lowe (who is English) was forced out to Williams, an English team because the Germans weren't happy that Lewis (an Englishman) won 2 titles in a German team. I have also heard rumours about Toto and Niki (both Austrians) having Nazi-themed orgies.....oh wait, that was the Englishman, Max Mosley.

You say such ridiculous stuff sometimes :lol:

So why did Brawn feel the need to leave Mercedes, a team that he built from the ground up, why did he feel that he couldn't trust either Wolff of Lauda?

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:33 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

The problem is that race circumstances are totally unreliable. You have massive variations in the weight of the car over the course of the race. You have variations in engine settings, variations in tire compound and tire life. You have potentially a car giving you a tow and/or DRS, etc. During qualifying, you are seeing all of the teams using the setup that they are using for the race and going as quickly as they can go in clean air. That is a reliable indicator of who's car is the fastest down the straight overall.

Taking trap numbers for the race is unreliable. For example, you can look at Bottas's trap number for the race and you'll see it's 322 kph. That's not very high at all but of course it's influenced by the fact that he didn't make it to the end of the race.

...except Bottas' speed trap figure was only 9 minutes before Hamilton's, so the race distance isn't a huge factor


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:34 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

I'm afraid these don't mean anything at all. They don't tell you how light the car was at the time they were clocked, or the tyre life, or more importantly if there was sleap streaming involved.

They do at least show that you can't just transpose qualifying speed trap times onto the race and use them as a basis for claiming which car is faster


I am not so sure, they are the purest numbers because every top speed figure in the race is reliant on slip streaming. Every driver will post there highest top speed when getting a slipstream and DRS in a race and it depends on how good of a tow they actually got at that point, half straight, full straight etc and even which car they were getting a tow from and that cars top speed in clean air.

Also, top speed will also be reliant on tyre life and last corner exit at most tracks;
-new tyres
-soft compound
- late in race (lighter car)
- slipstream length

All these giving the best chance for highest speed. At least in qualifying everybody is without slipstream, on the same tyre with the same age tyre. Note Alonso set one of the highest speeds in Spain due to the above factors all going in his favour.

There is also top speed with and without DRS. Some teams might have a more efficient DRS than others. So without DRS one car might top the charts but with it another car might top the charts.

which only reinforces the point that Hamilton was flying when he overtook Vettel.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

The problem is that race circumstances are totally unreliable. You have massive variations in the weight of the car over the course of the race. You have variations in engine settings, variations in tire compound and tire life. You have potentially a car giving you a tow and/or DRS, etc. During qualifying, you are seeing all of the teams using the setup that they are using for the race and going as quickly as they can go in clean air. That is a reliable indicator of who's car is the fastest down the straight overall.

Taking trap numbers for the race is unreliable. For example, you can look at Bottas's trap number for the race and you'll see it's 322 kph. That's not very high at all but of course it's influenced by the fact that he didn't make it to the end of the race.

...except Bottas' speed trap figure was only 9 minutes before Hamilton's, so the race distance isn't a huge factor


Bottas' is low because he never had DRS the entire race. Simple as that. Like I said, more variables in the race to consider and having DRS or not is one of them.

I am not sure if at a track like Barcelona that V max would be too influenced by fuel load. It would certainly influence early straight speed but the straight is 1km long so maybe not end straight speed. I wouldn't expect them to get more than 1-2 kph more due to weight. Although the car at the end of the race is probably carrying 7-8 kph more at the early phase of the straight.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:50 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

The problem is that race circumstances are totally unreliable. You have massive variations in the weight of the car over the course of the race. You have variations in engine settings, variations in tire compound and tire life. You have potentially a car giving you a tow and/or DRS, etc. During qualifying, you are seeing all of the teams using the setup that they are using for the race and going as quickly as they can go in clean air. That is a reliable indicator of who's car is the fastest down the straight overall.

Taking trap numbers for the race is unreliable. For example, you can look at Bottas's trap number for the race and you'll see it's 322 kph. That's not very high at all but of course it's influenced by the fact that he didn't make it to the end of the race.

...except Bottas' speed trap figure was only 9 minutes before Hamilton's, so the race distance isn't a huge factor


Bottas' is low because he never had DRS the entire race. Simple as that. Like I said, more variables in the race to consider and having DRS or not is one of them.

I am not sure if at a track like Barcelona that V max would be too influenced by fuel load. It would certainly influence early straight speed but the straight is 1km long so maybe not end straight speed. I wouldn't expect them to get more than 1-2 kph more due to weight. Although the car at the end of the race is probably carrying 7-8 kph more at the early phase of the straight.

which means that race distance isn't a huge factor, then?


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Indeed, the weight of the car is the smallest of the variables discussed for ultimate top speed, especially when you consider all cars are at the same weight through the race but the other things aren't equal and can vary largely.

DRS (+10-12kph), Length of tow, Tyre compound and Tyre age are the important ones with the latter two more related to exit from last corner.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

The problem is that race circumstances are totally unreliable. You have massive variations in the weight of the car over the course of the race. You have variations in engine settings, variations in tire compound and tire life. You have potentially a car giving you a tow and/or DRS, etc. During qualifying, you are seeing all of the teams using the setup that they are using for the race and going as quickly as they can go in clean air. That is a reliable indicator of who's car is the fastest down the straight overall.

Taking trap numbers for the race is unreliable. For example, you can look at Bottas's trap number for the race and you'll see it's 322 kph. That's not very high at all but of course it's influenced by the fact that he didn't make it to the end of the race.

...except Bottas' speed trap figure was only 9 minutes before Hamilton's, so the race distance isn't a huge factor


Bottas' is low because he never had DRS the entire race. Simple as that. Like I said, more variables in the race to consider and having DRS or not is one of them.

I am not sure if at a track like Barcelona that V max would be too influenced by fuel load. It would certainly influence early straight speed but the straight is 1km long so maybe not end straight speed. I wouldn't expect them to get more than 1-2 kph more due to weight. Although the car at the end of the race is probably carrying 7-8 kph more at the early phase of the straight.

which means that race distance isn't a huge factor, then?

Of course it is. Early in the race the cars are much heavier than they are later in the race. That obviously has an impact on the speed.

Edit: Of course the impact of something like DRS is larger but more weight changes the power to weight ratio etc.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He became marginalised within the team, they brought in Paddy Lowe to do a job that Brawn was already doing and he left at the end of the season.


You're not serious, are you?


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:23 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I haven't been able to find the Race Speed Trap figures yet that have time stamps but there was a big headwind on the straight so DRS+Slipstream was giving a big boost to everyone, even the McLaren, Alonso is near the top in all the figures thanks to his charge at the end on new softs as well lol but it looks like Seb never goes faster than Lewis in any of them but not by much.

Finish line.

Lewis 292.2
Seb 291.8

Speed Trap

Lewis 338.4
Seb 334.9

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2 ... 444/?st=ST

The problem is that race circumstances are totally unreliable. You have massive variations in the weight of the car over the course of the race. You have variations in engine settings, variations in tire compound and tire life. You have potentially a car giving you a tow and/or DRS, etc. During qualifying, you are seeing all of the teams using the setup that they are using for the race and going as quickly as they can go in clean air. That is a reliable indicator of who's car is the fastest down the straight overall.

Taking trap numbers for the race is unreliable. For example, you can look at Bottas's trap number for the race and you'll see it's 322 kph. That's not very high at all but of course it's influenced by the fact that he didn't make it to the end of the race.


In qualifying sure but as the figures show that doesn't mean it translates to being the quickest car on a straight in the race as well for the reasons you mention, there are just too many different variables in race conditions.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Is it possible that we just have too many variables to determine which car was actually quicker in a straight line at Barcelona? Fuel load, tyre type and wear, optimal traction and line off the previous corner, how quickly one picks up a tow. I'd imagine that there may even be a (marginal?) difference in the effectiveness of each car's DRS operation.
Unless you can place the cars side by side at the same time, with the same tyres and fuel load, you will struggle to draw a hard conclusion. Even then, one may argue that they do not occupy the vary same portion of road... I could go on.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:51 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He became marginalised within the team, they brought in Paddy Lowe to do a job that Brawn was already doing and he left at the end of the season.


You're not serious, are you?

Maybe dramatic, but I think he is somewhat right. They did bring Lowe in to replace Brawn, but not straight away, it was over a year's period. Brawn wanted to be the one and only point of reference if I remember correctly. They had arguments about his role of team principal and in the end he left. He wasn't marginalised of course as pokerman suggested, they did want him to stay as Lauda has mentioned many times. But Merc wanted to split the role between more people instead of having one person as a team principal, or something along these lines.

He has opened up and admitted since that his biggest grief was Lauda and Toto, he couldn't work with them and couldn't trust them.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He became marginalised within the team, they brought in Paddy Lowe to do a job that Brawn was already doing and he left at the end of the season.


You're not serious, are you?

Maybe dramatic, but I think he is somewhat right. They did bring Lowe in to replace Brawn, but not straight away, it was over a year's period. Brawn wanted to be the one and only point of reference if I remember correctly. They had arguments about his role of team principal and in the end he left. He wasn't marginalised of course as pokerman suggested, they did want him to stay as Lauda has mentioned many times. But Merc wanted to split the role between more people instead of having one person as a team principal, or something along these lines.

He has opened up and admitted since that his biggest grief was Lauda and Toto, he couldn't work with them and couldn't trust them.

That's all well and good but in what way is it related to Malaysia 2013?

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:44 pm 
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I know this is something that hasn't happened, but if it was Hamilton that had retired this previous race and not Bottas, Bottas would be at leased 8 points ahead of Hamilton in the drivers championship. Will people still be saying Hamilton is the obvious driver for Mercedes to be backing even though at this point in time, he has less points? It has only been 5 races. If this had been the case, we have got a race coming up soon where Bottas is usually incredibly strong. In Canada, he qualified 3rd in 2013, and then has got a podium result in the past couple of years too. I feel this could be a race where he may be as strong or better than Hamilton. But we will see. In Monaco though, I really don't know what to expect from Bottas. I don't think he's ever been bad there, but the Williams has been terrible there every year he's been with the team.

Then the race after Canada is Baku, which certainly didn't look like Hamilton was a fan of it last year. That was probably his worst weekend in ages. He locked up himself in Q1 causing a yellow flag and having to reverse back out onto the track, then in Q2, locks up in turn 7 nearly hitting the wall and having to reverse out again. Then, in Q3, he locked up again in turn 17 this time having to reverse out yet again. Then in Q3, he crashed. Although Bottas does make mistakes every now and then, I don't think he has ever made this many so close together. Even though in the race, Hamilton did have a few technical issues, it still certainly still wasn't a very strong performance by him. But I don't think many people will disagree with this. It was one very poor weekend which Hamilton very rarely has. But it does make me think that if Hamilton happens to have a retirement in one of the next 3 races, Bottas could well catch up and be about level with Hamilton's championship points. But yes, in the end, I still am pretty certain it will be Hamilton that beats him, and probably by some margin. Having 2 very competitive teams at the top will probably make the gap between Hamilton and Bottas by the end of the year look much larger than it did with Rosberg and Hamilton in the past 3 years. But I don't see why Bottas won't be able to get closer like Rosberg did if we give him more time in years to come. That is if Mercedes decide to keep him. I still think Bottas is very likely to remain with them next year though.

Bottas has at leased clearly had one very good race weekend clearly looking stronger than his team mate. He's also been pretty good at qualifying too. I feel one of the main reasons it looks like he isn't doing as well is because of how competitive Ferrari now are. When Bottas was qualifying in Australia, he may have been 3rd, but he was infact closer to Hamilton's time than Rosberg had ever been. Not bad at all for your very first qualifying with your team. And I also think he's been a brilliant team player, certainly better than Rosberg ever was. It also seems that whenever I see Hamilton speaking to Bottas, it all just looks more relaxed than it did when he was with Rosberg. They seem to get on better and from what Hamilton has said in interviews, he seems to really respect what Bottas has done for the team so far.

I seem to be more confident in Bottas's ability than many others are but either me or who disagree with me could be proven wrong. Lets wait and see how he performs.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:20 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He learned it from nowhere! Just the usual hyperbole.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:13 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.


First time I am hearing about it. Where did you learn that?

He became marginalised within the team, they brought in Paddy Lowe to do a job that Brawn was already doing and he left at the end of the season.

:lol:

Why did they need Paddy Lowe when they already had Ross Brawn?

Is there always malice and conspiracies involved when personnel is changed within the teams? Or are you just so fixed on seeing Lewis as a victim that you need to invent circumstances to support your view?

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:31 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.

:lol:

Why did they need Paddy Lowe when they already had Ross Brawn?

Is there always malice and conspiracies involved when personnel is changed within the teams? Or are you just so fixed on seeing Lewis as a victim that you need to invent circumstances to support your view?


Yes, because.....Ze Germans!

Brawn got fired because the Germans were upset. So upset, in fact, that they let the Englishman win 2 titles with the team after that just to be ironic. And since their German guy almost lost the title under his watch, they even kicked Lowe out in exchange for a blonde, blue-eyed Finn.

You can read about it in Brawn's book. He doesn't mention anything about it, of course, but why would they need Lowe when they had Brawn? Why would they need Allison when they had Lowe? Because....I don't even know why anymore, but clearly you can see how Lewis is the victim here, can't you?


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