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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:52 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
lamo wrote:
He used to heavily beat Massa in qualifying but not so much in races and Massa is a driver I would also classify as a better qualifier than racer.


Which is another reason I don't think it's hard to believe he might have the measure of Hamilton in qualifying.

Of course not but when Hamilton's car is understeering more than Bottas' it's not that far fetched that Hamilton set his car up more for the race, this will not be the same for every track but this track in particular is hard on rear tyres and the Mercedes car thus far has not been as kind on it's rear tyres as Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
I wonder if Hamilton had an engine blow up in the first race and crashed out of the second, if people would be suggesting Merc needed to back Bottas?

You never back the slower driver in particular if he can't beat Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:56 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
lamo wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I wonder if Hamilton had an engine blow up in the first race and crashed out of the second, if people would be suggesting Merc needed to back Bottas?


No, he isn't quick enough. The same reason Ferrari shouldn't be backing Kimi if that happened to Seb.


So how far would Hamilton have to be behind before it was the right thing to do?

Would it matter, Bottas would be nowhere near Vettel anyway much like Kimi isn't.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Unfortunately for Bottas for most Hamilton fans you are only as good as your last race!

So he has provided a stick for them to beat him with notwithstanding he jumped out of the way for Hamilton at every opportunity.

Also Hamilton who claimed he does not need No 1 status, He's not like Alonso and Vettel that have it written in their contracts and his fans hailed him as the best thing since sliced bread when he said it.
It's funny now same fans now want Mercedes to give him No 1 status which the man says he does not need!

Last race, it's 3 and 0 thus far.

What Hamilton actually said is that he always wants to be guaranteed equal status as in he doesn't want to be a #2 driver, and what's this standard that Hamilton has invented for himself, Heikki was letting Hamilton by way back in 2008.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:21 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm not sure Bottas optimizing for quali is a real thing - probably more an explanation people are giving to explain what they see on track i.e. Bottas performing better in qualifying than on race pace. But to be fair, we have often seen examples of drivers with better race pace than qualifying pace, or with better qualifying pace than race pace.


I think this is a default position for people who don't like the results they see... especially TV pundits who don't like it when 'their' man gets beaten.

mds wrote:
Either way, what would a qualifying-oriented setup be like? How would it differ from a race setup in terms of things that can not be adjusted just ahead of a race or during a race?


Well I'm sure you could alter the setup to give ultimate pace, but which would destroy the tyres in a couple of laps... but that wouldn't be in anyone's interest... unless you think Bottas was determined to stop Hamilton's pole record challenge? :lol:

Yeah it must be that Hamilton gets beat in qualifying so we will make something up, strange though I never saw this happen when Rosberg outqualified him.


Really? I hear it all the time on Channel 4, whenever Hamilton has any loss of time to another car it's immediately suggested that he has 'a problem'. Time and time again. That's not his fans fault, I'm saying it's the commentators... well let's be honest it's Ben isn't it. Coulthard has more sense!

Oh you are referring to C4 I watch the race on Sky.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:26 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think the idea is when you are on pole is to win the race maximising the track position on your teammate, not let another team win?


Of course, what I'm saying is there's no sense sacrificing race pace for pole if your team is going to ask you to move over (and we don't yet know if Merc would ask him to move over while leading, that's the next big question).

Well the landscape has changed now, getting pole knowing your teammate can't undercut you doesn't work if a driver from another team can do likewise.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:40 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You believe that if you want to?


Care to tell us (with proof) why he shouldn't?

I must admit I tend to believe respected F1 pundits rather than the likes of me or you who have no personal access to F1, people in the paddock tend to get to know what the score is.


Fine by me... so where are those "respected F1 pundits"? I believe one of the other forumites earlier asked for those quotes as they could not find then on-line when they searched.

So, poker.... tell us what is the SCORE? and... why did they not have Kimi move over for Seb in China if Seb is getting "preferential treatment" as you seem to be demanding for Lewis.

The score is that Kimi isn't obliged to move over for Vettel but Vettel gets the preference on race strategies.

So far this season Ferrari have given the preferential strategy to the driver that qualified ahead. Same as Merc

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm not sure Bottas optimizing for quali is a real thing - probably more an explanation people are giving to explain what they see on track i.e. Bottas performing better in qualifying than on race pace. But to be fair, we have often seen examples of drivers with better race pace than qualifying pace, or with better qualifying pace than race pace.


I think this is a default position for people who don't like the results they see... especially TV pundits who don't like it when 'their' man gets beaten.

mds wrote:
Either way, what would a qualifying-oriented setup be like? How would it differ from a race setup in terms of things that can not be adjusted just ahead of a race or during a race?


Well I'm sure you could alter the setup to give ultimate pace, but which would destroy the tyres in a couple of laps... but that wouldn't be in anyone's interest... unless you think Bottas was determined to stop Hamilton's pole record challenge? :lol:

Yeah it must be that Hamilton gets beat in qualifying so we will make something up, strange though I never saw this happen when Rosberg outqualified him.


You didn't? Because I definitely remember a lot of discussions in here about how Rosberg optimized for quali performance in 2014 (explaining how he beat Hamilton in quali that year) and not so much anymore in 2015.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm not sure Bottas optimizing for quali is a real thing - probably more an explanation people are giving to explain what they see on track i.e. Bottas performing better in qualifying than on race pace.
But to be fair, we have often seen examples of drivers with better race pace than qualifying pace, or with better qualifying pace than race pace.

Maybe he's just not gotten used to driving the Merc over an extended period, doesn't know fully what makes it tick, how to make it go fast while preserving the material, ...

Until Wolff or Bottas come out and say his setup focuses on qualifying, I'll remain very sceptical.

Either way, what would a qualifying-oriented setup be like? How would it differ from a race setup in terms of things that can not be adjusted just ahead of a race or during a race?

Well Ferrari's set the cars up to be quick in the race so I don't think there is a big enough adjustment you can make on the front wing just to go from one to the other?


BiB: Who says they do? And that they don't have a balanced setup but the Merc has that qualifying mode everyone is talking about?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:45 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Blake wrote:
LMAO

So now, Bottas has a "qualifying setup" but not Hamilton. Why in the hell would you think that Merc would do that? Disadvantage their 2x WDC in favor of a driver in only his 3rd race for the team? Seriously... if they have such a mode, would they not give it to BOTH drivers in an effort to keep the Ferrari cars behind them?

Here we are in the after but 3 races in the season on the fourth page of a thread titled "Mercedes must back Hamilton, now". Somehow, you expect Bottas to be on a par with Lewis after only 3 races... Lewis who has been with the team, won a couple of WDCs with them, knows their personnel, their way of doing things.... and yet, it is time to screw Bottas to give Lewis an advantage over his teammate. Makes no difference to some of you what it might mean to Bottas, not any difference what it might mean to the team....

3 races into the season is too early to be making such a call on a new driver. Yeah, I know all about Austria 2002 and the 5th (or 6th) of the season, but at least neither driver was new to the team. BTW, I seem to recall some of those posting in favor of "backing Hamilton, now", having been extraordinarily critical of Ferrari for their actions in favor of one driver, yet here you are demanding the same thing for your driver. Rather hypocritical, is it not? And then there is the "justification" of how Vettel is getting that "help" at Ferrari right now, yet, as pointed out by another poster earlier, had Ferrari told Kimi to move over at China as Bottas did for Lewis last race, Seb might well have 3 wins this season already.

Some of the same posters have spent nearly 7 years making a meal out of "Fernando is faster than you"


The problem is, Alonso was not MUCH faster than Massa in Hockenheim 2010(Alonso finished the race just 4 seconds ahead) and is nothing Like:
- Monaco 2016 (Hamilton finished the race 99 seconds ahead)
- Bahrain 2017 (Hamilton finished the race 14 seconds ahead)

In Hockenheim Massa had the pace to WIN the race for his team with no other team inbetween and was handicapped for the benefit of Alonso. The team would have scored the same WCC points anyway, whilst in Bahrain 2017 there was a chance Hamilton would finish behind Ricciardo given how slow Bottas was driving.

Oh the comparison is being made to Hockenheim 2010 when the 2 Ferrari's were coasting to a 1-2, yeah that's exactly the same? :uhoh:

You've missed the point of the thread. This thread isn't about what should have happened in Bahrain - it's about what should happen going forward i.e. that Hamilton should be given #1 status from here on in. Some of the same people calling for Merc to implement a #1/#2 policy are still complaining about when Ferrari did it 7 years ago

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:26 am 
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ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm not sure Bottas optimizing for quali is a real thing - probably more an explanation people are giving to explain what they see on track i.e. Bottas performing better in qualifying than on race pace. But to be fair, we have often seen examples of drivers with better race pace than qualifying pace, or with better qualifying pace than race pace.


I think this is a default position for people who don't like the results they see... especially TV pundits who don't like it when 'their' man gets beaten.

mds wrote:
Either way, what would a qualifying-oriented setup be like? How would it differ from a race setup in terms of things that can not be adjusted just ahead of a race or during a race?


Well I'm sure you could alter the setup to give ultimate pace, but which would destroy the tyres in a couple of laps... but that wouldn't be in anyone's interest... unless you think Bottas was determined to stop Hamilton's pole record challenge? :lol:

Yeah it must be that Hamilton gets beat in qualifying so we will make something up, strange though I never saw this happen when Rosberg outqualified him.


Really? I hear it all the time on Channel 4, whenever Hamilton has any loss of time to another car it's immediately suggested that he has 'a problem'. Time and time again. That's not his fans fault, I'm saying it's the commentators... well let's be honest it's Ben isn't it. Coulthard has more sense!


A recap:
- you wished Hamilton was the one losing points(DNF or lack of pace) in the first races
- you wish Bottas will outqualify him in all the races
- now you complain about C4 commentators but I bet you have not listened to Spanish or Italian TV. Do you want any proof?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:07 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
A recap:
- you wished Hamilton was the one losing points(DNF or lack of pace) in the first races
- you wish Bottas will outqualify him in all the races
- now you complain about C4 commentators but I bet you have not listened to Spanish or Italian TV. Do you want any proof?


I don't WISH Hamilton was the one losing points at all, I am no Lewis fan certainly, but I was merely suggesting that given that the results were reversed, would people be calling for Hamilton to support Bottas. I don't think so.

Yes, I hope Bottas does outqualify Hamilton. I hope Bottas wins the WDC to be honest. But mostly I hope there's a close, three way battle (or 4 way if Kimi can get his finger out) and the title is decided in the last race. If you genuinely want to know, my support is for Massa, and he's not going to win so all I really want is a close fight.

I'm sure other countries TV commentators are just as bad, but that doesn't make it acceptable. To my mind this constantly reinforces the idea that Hamilton is impervious in his fans mind, rather than accepting that sometimes he's just not as fast on every single lap, every single race. We know these cars are complex and doubtless there's very few times where the car is running perfect and every element is optimised. So technically, there's probably 70% of the race when the drivers are managing some niggle or other, but for the commentators it's become a crutch, "Oh he must have a problem". When does a niggle become a problem exactly?

I don't know if you remember but last year I had a signature which I eventually removed because some people took it to be anti-Hamilton (it wasn't, it was anti-commentator), and that just typified the kind of nonsense they spout. There was a race where the track was improving and Hamilton set a time that was half a second faster than anyone else had gone up to that point. The commentator spent the next minute spouting on about how majestic Hamilton was and how he was in a league of his own etc etc etc, the usual stuff. Next lap, Rosberg obliterated the time by about 3/4 of a second and they didn't say a thing.

It's not because it's Hamilton, it would annoy me whoever it was, because it's just ridiculous. Okay it maybe annoys me a bit more because it's Hamilton and I'm not a fan, but that doesn't alter the fact that they talk utter drivel.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:58 am 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Care to tell us (with proof) why he shouldn't?

I must admit I tend to believe respected F1 pundits rather than the likes of me or you who have no personal access to F1, people in the paddock tend to get to know what the score is.


Fine by me... so where are those "respected F1 pundits"? I believe one of the other forumites earlier asked for those quotes as they could not find then on-line when they searched.

So, poker.... tell us what is the SCORE? and... why did they not have Kimi move over for Seb in China if Seb is getting "preferential treatment" as you seem to be demanding for Lewis.

The score is that Kimi isn't obliged to move over for Vettel but Vettel gets the preference on race strategies.

So far this season Ferrari have given the preferential strategy to the driver that qualified ahead. Same as Merc

Just passing on what has been said in the paddock, also I wonder if you read a James Allen article that said that Kimi was deliberately left out on old tyres so he might interfere with Hamilton's race after he pitted, this to the detriment of Kimi's race itself.

Just about every race we see Kimi being left out on old tyres and complaining about his strategy, twice they eventually agreed with Kimi and pitted him for fresh tyres.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:00 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
mds wrote:
I'm not sure Bottas optimizing for quali is a real thing - probably more an explanation people are giving to explain what they see on track i.e. Bottas performing better in qualifying than on race pace. But to be fair, we have often seen examples of drivers with better race pace than qualifying pace, or with better qualifying pace than race pace.


I think this is a default position for people who don't like the results they see... especially TV pundits who don't like it when 'their' man gets beaten.

mds wrote:
Either way, what would a qualifying-oriented setup be like? How would it differ from a race setup in terms of things that can not be adjusted just ahead of a race or during a race?


Well I'm sure you could alter the setup to give ultimate pace, but which would destroy the tyres in a couple of laps... but that wouldn't be in anyone's interest... unless you think Bottas was determined to stop Hamilton's pole record challenge? :lol:

Yeah it must be that Hamilton gets beat in qualifying so we will make something up, strange though I never saw this happen when Rosberg outqualified him.


You didn't? Because I definitely remember a lot of discussions in here about how Rosberg optimized for quali performance in 2014 (explaining how he beat Hamilton in quali that year) and not so much anymore in 2015.

Then my memory doesn't serve me well, recently someone brought that forward in respect to Bottas which then got me thinking.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:04 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Blake wrote:
LMAO

So now, Bottas has a "qualifying setup" but not Hamilton. Why in the hell would you think that Merc would do that? Disadvantage their 2x WDC in favor of a driver in only his 3rd race for the team? Seriously... if they have such a mode, would they not give it to BOTH drivers in an effort to keep the Ferrari cars behind them?

Here we are in the after but 3 races in the season on the fourth page of a thread titled "Mercedes must back Hamilton, now". Somehow, you expect Bottas to be on a par with Lewis after only 3 races... Lewis who has been with the team, won a couple of WDCs with them, knows their personnel, their way of doing things.... and yet, it is time to screw Bottas to give Lewis an advantage over his teammate. Makes no difference to some of you what it might mean to Bottas, not any difference what it might mean to the team....

3 races into the season is too early to be making such a call on a new driver. Yeah, I know all about Austria 2002 and the 5th (or 6th) of the season, but at least neither driver was new to the team. BTW, I seem to recall some of those posting in favor of "backing Hamilton, now", having been extraordinarily critical of Ferrari for their actions in favor of one driver, yet here you are demanding the same thing for your driver. Rather hypocritical, is it not? And then there is the "justification" of how Vettel is getting that "help" at Ferrari right now, yet, as pointed out by another poster earlier, had Ferrari told Kimi to move over at China as Bottas did for Lewis last race, Seb might well have 3 wins this season already.

Some of the same posters have spent nearly 7 years making a meal out of "Fernando is faster than you"


The problem is, Alonso was not MUCH faster than Massa in Hockenheim 2010(Alonso finished the race just 4 seconds ahead) and is nothing Like:
- Monaco 2016 (Hamilton finished the race 99 seconds ahead)
- Bahrain 2017 (Hamilton finished the race 14 seconds ahead)

In Hockenheim Massa had the pace to WIN the race for his team with no other team inbetween and was handicapped for the benefit of Alonso. The team would have scored the same WCC points anyway, whilst in Bahrain 2017 there was a chance Hamilton would finish behind Ricciardo given how slow Bottas was driving.

Oh the comparison is being made to Hockenheim 2010 when the 2 Ferrari's were coasting to a 1-2, yeah that's exactly the same? :uhoh:

You've missed the point of the thread. This thread isn't about what should have happened in Bahrain - it's about what should happen going forward i.e. that Hamilton should be given #1 status from here on in. Some of the same people calling for Merc to implement a #1/#2 policy are still complaining about when Ferrari did it 7 years ago

You think that Bottas will be asked to give away a comfortable win?

You can't say this will happen before it actually happens.

Edit: Also I personally had no problem with what Ferrari did, Massa was never going to be a WDC title contender against the faster Alonso.

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Isn't that what Merc throwing their weight behind Lewis means though?

And I for one don't honestly believe that Merc want to win the WCC but don't care about winning the WDC. (I'm not accusing you of this Pokerman by the way), in the years when one team wins the WCC and another wins the WDC, the public only remembers who won the WDC. So I can totally believe they would ask Bottas to move over for Lewis, not yet perhaps, but later in the year certainly (assuming that Lewis and Seb are in a close battle with Bottas third or lower).

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:19 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
A recap:
- you wished Hamilton was the one losing points(DNF or lack of pace) in the first races
- you wish Bottas will outqualify him in all the races
- now you complain about C4 commentators but I bet you have not listened to Spanish or Italian TV. Do you want any proof?


I don't WISH Hamilton was the one losing points at all, I am no Lewis fan certainly, but I was merely suggesting that given that the results were reversed, would people be calling for Hamilton to support Bottas. I don't think so.

Yes, I hope Bottas does outqualify Hamilton. I hope Bottas wins the WDC to be honest. But mostly I hope there's a close, three way battle (or 4 way if Kimi can get his finger out) and the title is decided in the last race. If you genuinely want to know, my support is for Massa, and he's not going to win so all I really want is a close fight.

I'm sure other countries TV commentators are just as bad, but that doesn't make it acceptable. To my mind this constantly reinforces the idea that Hamilton is impervious in his fans mind, rather than accepting that sometimes he's just not as fast on every single lap, every single race. We know these cars are complex and doubtless there's very few times where the car is running perfect and every element is optimised. So technically, there's probably 70% of the race when the drivers are managing some niggle or other, but for the commentators it's become a crutch, "Oh he must have a problem". When does a niggle become a problem exactly?

I don't know if you remember but last year I had a signature which I eventually removed because some people took it to be anti-Hamilton (it wasn't, it was anti-commentator), and that just typified the kind of nonsense they spout. There was a race where the track was improving and Hamilton set a time that was half a second faster than anyone else had gone up to that point. The commentator spent the next minute spouting on about how majestic Hamilton was and how he was in a league of his own etc etc etc, the usual stuff. Next lap, Rosberg obliterated the time by about 3/4 of a second and they didn't say a thing.

It's not because it's Hamilton, it would annoy me whoever it was, because it's just ridiculous. Okay it maybe annoys me a bit more because it's Hamilton and I'm not a fan, but that doesn't alter the fact that they talk utter drivel.

What you are putting forward though is not much more than hypothetical nonsense, you just can't put forward what would happen if Bottas was faster when he is in fact slower, why should that even happen to Hamilton when it's never happened to him before in his career, no driver has ever been intrinsically faster than him race after race in qualifying and the race itself.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
A recap:
- you wished Hamilton was the one losing points(DNF or lack of pace) in the first races
- you wish Bottas will outqualify him in all the races
- now you complain about C4 commentators but I bet you have not listened to Spanish or Italian TV. Do you want any proof?


I don't WISH Hamilton was the one losing points at all, I am no Lewis fan certainly, but I was merely suggesting that given that the results were reversed, would people be calling for Hamilton to support Bottas. I don't think so.

Yes, I hope Bottas does outqualify Hamilton. I hope Bottas wins the WDC to be honest. But mostly I hope there's a close, three way battle (or 4 way if Kimi can get his finger out) and the title is decided in the last race. If you genuinely want to know, my support is for Massa, and he's not going to win so all I really want is a close fight.

I'm sure other countries TV commentators are just as bad, but that doesn't make it acceptable. To my mind this constantly reinforces the idea that Hamilton is impervious in his fans mind, rather than accepting that sometimes he's just not as fast on every single lap, every single race. We know these cars are complex and doubtless there's very few times where the car is running perfect and every element is optimised. So technically, there's probably 70% of the race when the drivers are managing some niggle or other, but for the commentators it's become a crutch, "Oh he must have a problem". When does a niggle become a problem exactly?

I don't know if you remember but last year I had a signature which I eventually removed because some people took it to be anti-Hamilton (it wasn't, it was anti-commentator), and that just typified the kind of nonsense they spout. There was a race where the track was improving and Hamilton set a time that was half a second faster than anyone else had gone up to that point. The commentator spent the next minute spouting on about how majestic Hamilton was and how he was in a league of his own etc etc etc, the usual stuff. Next lap, Rosberg obliterated the time by about 3/4 of a second and they didn't say a thing.

It's not because it's Hamilton, it would annoy me whoever it was, because it's just ridiculous. Okay it maybe annoys me a bit more because it's Hamilton and I'm not a fan, but that doesn't alter the fact that they talk utter drivel.

What you are putting forward though is not much more than hypothetical nonsense, you just can't put forward what would happen if Bottas was faster when he is in fact slower, why should that even happen to Hamilton when it's never happened to him before in his career, no driver has ever been intrinsically faster than him race after race in qualifying and the race itself.


True, but we don't yet know where Bottas stands. He has only driven three races for Merc, can we honestly write him off as a number two based on that? Maybe he's like Kimi and needs the car to be a certain way, and when/if he gets it right then he will be WDC? I get the feeling that maybe Bottas is perhaps putting too much pressure on himself to match Lewis right from the off, which is understandable given his 'temporary' position in the team, the need to prove himself, etc...

Maybe Bottas isn't on Hamilton's level, it seems nuts to expect him to be a WDC contender when he hasn't even won a race yet. Surely even Wolff doesn't expect him to come into Hamilton's team and beat him year one?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Some of the same posters have spent nearly 7 years making a meal out of "Fernando is faster than you"


The problem is, Alonso was not MUCH faster than Massa in Hockenheim 2010(Alonso finished the race just 4 seconds ahead) and is nothing Like:
- Monaco 2016 (Hamilton finished the race 99 seconds ahead)
- Bahrain 2017 (Hamilton finished the race 14 seconds ahead)

In Hockenheim Massa had the pace to WIN the race for his team with no other team inbetween and was handicapped for the benefit of Alonso. The team would have scored the same WCC points anyway, whilst in Bahrain 2017 there was a chance Hamilton would finish behind Ricciardo given how slow Bottas was driving.

Oh the comparison is being made to Hockenheim 2010 when the 2 Ferrari's were coasting to a 1-2, yeah that's exactly the same? :uhoh:

You've missed the point of the thread. This thread isn't about what should have happened in Bahrain - it's about what should happen going forward i.e. that Hamilton should be given #1 status from here on in. Some of the same people calling for Merc to implement a #1/#2 policy are still complaining about when Ferrari did it 7 years ago

You think that Bottas will be asked to give away a comfortable win?

You can't say this will happen before it actually happens.


Well that's the point of the thread. It's 7 points Mercedes would be giving up for Lewis in the WDC for no reason. WCC points are the same regardless.

It was a no-brainer 7 years ago and it's a no-brainer now if the slower driver isn't going to win the team mate battle over the year, never mind the WDC.

But will they get behind Lewis and if they would, when?. It's arguable they already have with 3 orders to Bottas in 3 races so it's really waiting until that exact scenario raises it's head to see what they would do.

IMO they would switch them by the summer if Seb was in 3rd but wouldn't if he had DNF'd for some reason. I think they'd just take the plus 18 over Seb and be happy enough to give Bottas his first win in that situation.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:34 pm 
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I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:52 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


This is the inevitable consequence of not being as good as the other driver.

Not aimed at you, but on the WCC vs WDC. Its not one or the other, the team still scores the same amount of points for the WCC. It just puts a larger share toward one driver. In fact decisions like Bahrain to let Hamilton attack for the lead can and do lead to an increase of both WCC and WDC points totals.

Moving forward, Russia should be very interesting on the one lap pace to see where Bottas really stands. Its arguably Bottas' best track and Hamilton got out qualified three times by Nico (one of only two tracks Nico whitewashed him at, although Lewis broke down in one).

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:22 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...


Nico was a very good driver, the only thing was he was just a small amount behind Lewis. Bottas is going to have it a lot harder however with Ferrari in the mix. Under 2014-2016 levels of dominance and Mercedes rules of engagement, Bottas likely would have won in Bahrain and would have P1,P2,P2 from his first 3 races and be in the title fight as it would likely be first after turn 1 wins the race. At very least he would have P2,P2,P2 and if Hamilton DNF'd Russia Bottas leads the WDC, this is basically what happened in 2014 to create a close title fight.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I must admit I tend to believe respected F1 pundits rather than the likes of me or you who have no personal access to F1, people in the paddock tend to get to know what the score is.


Fine by me... so where are those "respected F1 pundits"? I believe one of the other forumites earlier asked for those quotes as they could not find then on-line when they searched.

So, poker.... tell us what is the SCORE? and... why did they not have Kimi move over for Seb in China if Seb is getting "preferential treatment" as you seem to be demanding for Lewis.

The score is that Kimi isn't obliged to move over for Vettel but Vettel gets the preference on race strategies.

So far this season Ferrari have given the preferential strategy to the driver that qualified ahead. Same as Merc

Just passing on what has been said in the paddock, also I wonder if you read a James Allen article that said that Kimi was deliberately left out on old tyres so he might interfere with Hamilton's race after he pitted, this to the detriment of Kimi's race itself.

Just about every race we see Kimi being left out on old tyres and complaining about his strategy, twice they eventually agreed with Kimi and pitted him for fresh tyres.

I didn't read that actually but I will give it a look :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:59 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


I have been very very impressed by Bottas and I will tell you why.
In qualifying, Lewis usually does most of the damage in Sector 1, the one that has the high braking zone coming from the straight in the outlap. If you look at the data, you will find out it is there that Button and Rosberg accumulated most of their gaps in the Q3. The other place when he usually gains time is the last corner (Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria, Monza).

Bottas have been much closer to Hamilton in S1 and last corners than Button/Rosberg(Alonso is inconclusive). It is only 3 races, but if you survive S1 with Hamilton, you have all the possibilities to claim pole. So he will do fine if he can repeat his performance.

Talking about race pace, in the last 10 years the only two guys that I recall doing qualifying laps in the race for 20 minutes are Vettel(Singapore 2011?) and Hamilton(Singapore 2014, Monza 2015, Bahrain 2017). When they are in the zone(in the race), nobody can touch them.

In conclusion, I think it will be easier for Bottas to do better in Qualifying than in the race.

(Australia is actually one of Lewis weakest tracks with Brazil)


Last edited by Pullrod on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


I have been very very impressed by Bottas and I will tell you why.
In qualifying, Lewis usually does most of the damage in Sector 1, the one that has the high braking zone coming from the straight in the outlap. If you look at the data, you will find out it is there that Button and Rosberg accumulated most of their gaps in the Q3. The other place when he usually gains time is the last corner (Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria, Monza).

Bottas have been much closer to Hamilton in S1 and last corners than Button/Rosberg(Alonso is inconclusive). It is only 3 races, but if you survive S1 with Hamilton, you have all the possibilities to claim pole. So he will do fine.

Talking about race pace, in the last 10 years the only two guys that I recall doing qualifying laps in the race for 20 minutes are Vettel(Singapore 2011?) and Hamilton(Singapore 2014, Monza 2015, Bahrain 2017). When they are in the zone(in the race), nobody can touch them.

In conclusion, I think it will be easier for Bottas to do better in Qualifying than in the race.

(Australia is actually one of Lewis weakest tracks with Brazil)


One lap pace is useless if you don't have race pace!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


I have been very very impressed by Bottas and I will tell you why.
In qualifying, Lewis usually does most of the damage in Sector 1, the one that has the high braking zone coming from the straight in the outlap. If you look at the data, you will find out it is there that Button and Rosberg accumulated most of their gaps in the Q3. The other place when he usually gains time is the last corner (Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria, Monza).

Bottas have been much closer to Hamilton in S1 and last corners than Button/Rosberg(Alonso is inconclusive). It is only 3 races, but if you survive S1 with Hamilton, you have all the possibilities to claim pole. So he will do fine.

Talking about race pace, in the last 10 years the only two guys that I recall doing qualifying laps in the race for 20 minutes are Vettel(Singapore 2011?) and Hamilton(Singapore 2014, Monza 2015, Bahrain 2017). When they are in the zone(in the race), nobody can touch them.

In conclusion, I think it will be easier for Bottas to do better in Qualifying than in the race.

(Australia is actually one of Lewis weakest tracks with Brazil)


One lap pace is useless if you don't have race pace!


Yeah I know but it is not easy to be fast but also "protect" your tyre. It is much easier to trash it in Q3 for just 1 lap.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


I have been very very impressed by Bottas and I will tell you why.
In qualifying, Lewis usually does most of the damage in Sector 1, the one that has the high braking zone coming from the straight in the outlap. If you look at the data, you will find out it is there that Button and Rosberg accumulated most of their gaps in the Q3. The other place when he usually gains time is the last corner (Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria, Monza).

Bottas have been much closer to Hamilton in S1 and last corners than Button/Rosberg(Alonso is inconclusive). It is only 3 races, but if you survive S1 with Hamilton, you have all the possibilities to claim pole. So he will do fine if he can repeat his performance.

Talking about race pace, in the last 10 years the only two guys that I recall doing qualifying laps in the race for 20 minutes are Vettel(Singapore 2011?) and Hamilton(Singapore 2014, Monza 2015, Bahrain 2017). When they are in the zone(in the race), nobody can touch them.

In conclusion, I think it will be easier for Bottas to do better in Qualifying than in the race.

(Australia is actually one of Lewis weakest tracks with Brazil)


Lewis is actually extremely fast in australia, and that is mainly due to s1 like you said. Noone has outqualified him there in the same car as i recall. Hes been unlucky there though, hence the lack of good results. But hes definitely a beast around there. Russia is a tough track for him and so is austria.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:16 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


I have been very very impressed by Bottas and I will tell you why.
In qualifying, Lewis usually does most of the damage in Sector 1, the one that has the high braking zone coming from the straight in the outlap. If you look at the data, you will find out it is there that Button and Rosberg accumulated most of their gaps in the Q3. The other place when he usually gains time is the last corner (Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria, Monza).

Bottas have been much closer to Hamilton in S1 and last corners than Button/Rosberg(Alonso is inconclusive). It is only 3 races, but if you survive S1 with Hamilton, you have all the possibilities to claim pole. So he will do fine if he can repeat his performance.

Talking about race pace, in the last 10 years the only two guys that I recall doing qualifying laps in the race for 20 minutes are Vettel(Singapore 2011?) and Hamilton(Singapore 2014, Monza 2015, Bahrain 2017). When they are in the zone(in the race), nobody can touch them.

In conclusion, I think it will be easier for Bottas to do better in Qualifying than in the race.

(Australia is actually one of Lewis weakest tracks with Brazil)


Lewis is actually extremely fast in australia, and that is mainly due to s1 like you said. Noone has outqualified him there in the same car as i recall. Hes been unlucky there though, hence the lack of good results. But hes definitely a beast around there. Russia is a tough track for him and so is austria.


I meant in the race. I know he has been unlucky there(2009, 2010, 2014)


Last edited by Pullrod on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


I have been very very impressed by Bottas and I will tell you why.
In qualifying, Lewis usually does most of the damage in Sector 1, the one that has the high braking zone coming from the straight in the outlap. If you look at the data, you will find out it is there that Button and Rosberg accumulated most of their gaps in the Q3. The other place when he usually gains time is the last corner (Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria, Monza).

Bottas have been much closer to Hamilton in S1 and last corners than Button/Rosberg(Alonso is inconclusive). It is only 3 races, but if you survive S1 with Hamilton, you have all the possibilities to claim pole. So he will do fine if he can repeat his performance.

Talking about race pace, in the last 10 years the only two guys that I recall doing qualifying laps in the race for 20 minutes are Vettel(Singapore 2011?) and Hamilton(Singapore 2014, Monza 2015, Bahrain 2017). When they are in the zone(in the race), nobody can touch them.

In conclusion, I think it will be easier for Bottas to do better in Qualifying than in the race.

(Australia is actually one of Lewis weakest tracks with Brazil)


Lewis is actually extremely fast in australia, and that is mainly due to s1 like you said. Noone has outqualified him there in the same car as i recall. Hes been unlucky there though, hence the lack of good results. But hes definitely a beast around there. Russia is a tough track for him and so is austria.


I meant in the race.


Due to bad luck and strategy only. Its not for a lack of pace thats for sure.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:23 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.


I have been very very impressed by Bottas and I will tell you why.
In qualifying, Lewis usually does most of the damage in Sector 1, the one that has the high braking zone coming from the straight in the outlap. If you look at the data, you will find out it is there that Button and Rosberg accumulated most of their gaps in the Q3. The other place when he usually gains time is the last corner (Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria, Monza).

Bottas have been much closer to Hamilton in S1 and last corners than Button/Rosberg(Alonso is inconclusive). It is only 3 races, but if you survive S1 with Hamilton, you have all the possibilities to claim pole. So he will do fine if he can repeat his performance.

Talking about race pace, in the last 10 years the only two guys that I recall doing qualifying laps in the race for 20 minutes are Vettel(Singapore 2011?) and Hamilton(Singapore 2014, Monza 2015, Bahrain 2017). When they are in the zone(in the race), nobody can touch them.

In conclusion, I think it will be easier for Bottas to do better in Qualifying than in the race.

(Australia is actually one of Lewis weakest tracks with Brazil)


Lewis is actually extremely fast in australia, and that is mainly due to s1 like you said. Noone has outqualified him there in the same car as i recall. Hes been unlucky there though, hence the lack of good results. But hes definitely a beast around there. Russia is a tough track for him and so is austria.


I meant in the race.


Due to bad luck and strategy only. Its not for a lack of pace thats for sure.


Yeah it is possible:

- (2009) he was excluded from the race
- (2010) he met Webber that crashed into him
- (2014) he started with an engine problem.
- (2016, 2017) Verstappen screwed up his strategy


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Hamilton definitely has tracks he is better on and those less so. I am sure all the drivers do, but following Hamilton closely across multiple team mates his weakest tracks are Suzuka and Brazil. His strongest are probably Hungary and Canada.

He is strong every where else with potential questions marks over Russia although there is not enough data to really compare, Nico out qualified him in 2014 (which he did a lot that year) and 2015 but it fell in the part of the year in 2015 when Nico out qualified him 7 times straight so had him beat everywhere over 1 lap. Singapore I am not entirely convinced with Hamilton either, especially given last year.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
You don't think that a former F1 driver can see how a F1 car is handling by watching the onboard?


Who made the statement? When was it stated and can you provide a URL? All I am asking is for any form of proof.

Proof please.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:07 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
A recap:
- you wished Hamilton was the one losing points(DNF or lack of pace) in the first races
- you wish Bottas will outqualify him in all the races
- now you complain about C4 commentators but I bet you have not listened to Spanish or Italian TV. Do you want any proof?


I don't WISH Hamilton was the one losing points at all, I am no Lewis fan certainly, but I was merely suggesting that given that the results were reversed, would people be calling for Hamilton to support Bottas. I don't think so.

Yes, I hope Bottas does outqualify Hamilton. I hope Bottas wins the WDC to be honest. But mostly I hope there's a close, three way battle (or 4 way if Kimi can get his finger out) and the title is decided in the last race. If you genuinely want to know, my support is for Massa, and he's not going to win so all I really want is a close fight.

I'm sure other countries TV commentators are just as bad, but that doesn't make it acceptable. To my mind this constantly reinforces the idea that Hamilton is impervious in his fans mind, rather than accepting that sometimes he's just not as fast on every single lap, every single race. We know these cars are complex and doubtless there's very few times where the car is running perfect and every element is optimised. So technically, there's probably 70% of the race when the drivers are managing some niggle or other, but for the commentators it's become a crutch, "Oh he must have a problem". When does a niggle become a problem exactly?

I don't know if you remember but last year I had a signature which I eventually removed because some people took it to be anti-Hamilton (it wasn't, it was anti-commentator), and that just typified the kind of nonsense they spout. There was a race where the track was improving and Hamilton set a time that was half a second faster than anyone else had gone up to that point. The commentator spent the next minute spouting on about how majestic Hamilton was and how he was in a league of his own etc etc etc, the usual stuff. Next lap, Rosberg obliterated the time by about 3/4 of a second and they didn't say a thing.

It's not because it's Hamilton, it would annoy me whoever it was, because it's just ridiculous. Okay it maybe annoys me a bit more because it's Hamilton and I'm not a fan, but that doesn't alter the fact that they talk utter drivel.

What you are putting forward though is not much more than hypothetical nonsense, you just can't put forward what would happen if Bottas was faster when he is in fact slower, why should that even happen to Hamilton when it's never happened to him before in his career, no driver has ever been intrinsically faster than him race after race in qualifying and the race itself.


True, but we don't yet know where Bottas stands. He has only driven three races for Merc, can we honestly write him off as a number two based on that? Maybe he's like Kimi and needs the car to be a certain way, and when/if he gets it right then he will be WDC? I get the feeling that maybe Bottas is perhaps putting too much pressure on himself to match Lewis right from the off, which is understandable given his 'temporary' position in the team, the need to prove himself, etc...

Maybe Bottas isn't on Hamilton's level, it seems nuts to expect him to be a WDC contender when he hasn't even won a race yet. Surely even Wolff doesn't expect him to come into Hamilton's team and beat him year one?

Well I'm not putting that level of expectation on him It's others that are wanting Bottas to beat Hamilton hence the indignation we see with the team orders given against Bottas even though Bottas has been the slower driver thus far.

I thought that Bottas would be similar to Rosberg with him being a good qualifier, but one thing I sort of chose to ignore, probably because I like Bottas, is that even though he outscored Massa every season Massa would beat Bottas in the races as often as Bottas beat Massa and that was consistently so season on season.

So Bottas might be more like another Heikki than another Rosberg but like you say it's still early doors yet.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You don't think that a former F1 driver can see how a F1 car is handling by watching the onboard?


Who made the statement? When was it stated and can you provide a URL? All I am asking is for any form of proof.

Proof please.


It was Paul Di Resta during the sky coverage.
It's not proof of anything other than how he thought he saw things.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
The problem is, Alonso was not MUCH faster than Massa in Hockenheim 2010(Alonso finished the race just 4 seconds ahead) and is nothing Like:
- Monaco 2016 (Hamilton finished the race 99 seconds ahead)
- Bahrain 2017 (Hamilton finished the race 14 seconds ahead)

In Hockenheim Massa had the pace to WIN the race for his team with no other team inbetween and was handicapped for the benefit of Alonso. The team would have scored the same WCC points anyway, whilst in Bahrain 2017 there was a chance Hamilton would finish behind Ricciardo given how slow Bottas was driving.

Oh the comparison is being made to Hockenheim 2010 when the 2 Ferrari's were coasting to a 1-2, yeah that's exactly the same? :uhoh:

You've missed the point of the thread. This thread isn't about what should have happened in Bahrain - it's about what should happen going forward i.e. that Hamilton should be given #1 status from here on in. Some of the same people calling for Merc to implement a #1/#2 policy are still complaining about when Ferrari did it 7 years ago

You think that Bottas will be asked to give away a comfortable win?

You can't say this will happen before it actually happens.


Well that's the point of the thread. It's 7 points Mercedes would be giving up for Lewis in the WDC for no reason. WCC points are the same regardless.

It was a no-brainer 7 years ago and it's a no-brainer now if the slower driver isn't going to win the team mate battle over the year, never mind the WDC.

But will they get behind Lewis and if they would, when?. It's arguable they already have with 3 orders to Bottas in 3 races so it's really waiting until that exact scenario raises it's head to see what they would do.

IMO they would switch them by the summer if Seb was in 3rd but wouldn't if he had DNF'd for some reason. I think they'd just take the plus 18 over Seb and be happy enough to give Bottas his first win in that situation.

Well I never disagreed with what happened 7 years ago either but I have a feeling that Mercedes would not do the same in similar circumstances in particular like you say if Bottas is yet to win a race.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:15 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.

Rosberg was not put in that position against Hamilton, you have to show that you can hold your own to an extent.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Blake wrote:
LMAO

So now, Bottas has a "qualifying setup" but not Hamilton. Why in the hell would you think that Merc would do that? Disadvantage their 2x WDC in favor of a driver in only his 3rd race for the team? Seriously... if they have such a mode, would they not give it to BOTH drivers in an effort to keep the Ferrari cars behind them?

Here we are in the after but 3 races in the season on the fourth page of a thread titled "Mercedes must back Hamilton, now". Somehow, you expect Bottas to be on a par with Lewis after only 3 races... Lewis who has been with the team, won a couple of WDCs with them, knows their personnel, their way of doing things.... and yet, it is time to screw Bottas to give Lewis an advantage over his teammate. Makes no difference to some of you what it might mean to Bottas, not any difference what it might mean to the team....

3 races into the season is too early to be making such a call on a new driver. Yeah, I know all about Austria 2002 and the 5th (or 6th) of the season, but at least neither driver was new to the team. BTW, I seem to recall some of those posting in favor of "backing Hamilton, now", having been extraordinarily critical of Ferrari for their actions in favor of one driver, yet here you are demanding the same thing for your driver. Rather hypocritical, is it not? And then there is the "justification" of how Vettel is getting that "help" at Ferrari right now, yet, as pointed out by another poster earlier, had Ferrari told Kimi to move over at China as Bottas did for Lewis last race, Seb might well have 3 wins this season already.

Some of the same posters have spent nearly 7 years making a meal out of "Fernando is faster than you"


The problem is, Alonso was not MUCH faster than Massa in Hockenheim 2010(Alonso finished the race just 4 seconds ahead) and is nothing Like:
- Monaco 2016 (Hamilton finished the race 99 seconds ahead)
- Bahrain 2017 (Hamilton finished the race 14 seconds ahead)

In Hockenheim Massa had the pace to WIN the race for his team with no other team inbetween and was handicapped for the benefit of Alonso. The team would have scored the same WCC points anyway, whilst in Bahrain 2017 there was a chance Hamilton would finish behind Ricciardo given how slow Bottas was driving.

Oh the comparison is being made to Hockenheim 2010 when the 2 Ferrari's were coasting to a 1-2, yeah that's exactly the same? :uhoh:

If Ferrari hadn't shat the bed in Abu Dhabi then the extra 7 points Alonso got at Hockenheim would probably have ended up being the difference between Alonso and Vettel winning the title.

I can't believe anyone would argue Ferrari did the wrong thing that day in terms of maximising the chance of a championship.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:17 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.

Rosberg was not put in that position against Hamilton, you have to show that you can hold your own to an extent.

Not sure the comparison is apt. As mentioned previously, there was never any need to issue team orders at Mercedes these last three years, since they were virtually guaranteed both titles anyway. This is the first year with genuine competition.


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