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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
A recap:
- you wished Hamilton was the one losing points(DNF or lack of pace) in the first races
- you wish Bottas will outqualify him in all the races
- now you complain about C4 commentators but I bet you have not listened to Spanish or Italian TV. Do you want any proof?


I don't WISH Hamilton was the one losing points at all, I am no Lewis fan certainly, but I was merely suggesting that given that the results were reversed, would people be calling for Hamilton to support Bottas. I don't think so.

Yes, I hope Bottas does outqualify Hamilton. I hope Bottas wins the WDC to be honest. But mostly I hope there's a close, three way battle (or 4 way if Kimi can get his finger out) and the title is decided in the last race. If you genuinely want to know, my support is for Massa, and he's not going to win so all I really want is a close fight.

I'm sure other countries TV commentators are just as bad, but that doesn't make it acceptable. To my mind this constantly reinforces the idea that Hamilton is impervious in his fans mind, rather than accepting that sometimes he's just not as fast on every single lap, every single race. We know these cars are complex and doubtless there's very few times where the car is running perfect and every element is optimised. So technically, there's probably 70% of the race when the drivers are managing some niggle or other, but for the commentators it's become a crutch, "Oh he must have a problem". When does a niggle become a problem exactly?

I don't know if you remember but last year I had a signature which I eventually removed because some people took it to be anti-Hamilton (it wasn't, it was anti-commentator), and that just typified the kind of nonsense they spout. There was a race where the track was improving and Hamilton set a time that was half a second faster than anyone else had gone up to that point. The commentator spent the next minute spouting on about how majestic Hamilton was and how he was in a league of his own etc etc etc, the usual stuff. Next lap, Rosberg obliterated the time by about 3/4 of a second and they didn't say a thing.

It's not because it's Hamilton, it would annoy me whoever it was, because it's just ridiculous. Okay it maybe annoys me a bit more because it's Hamilton and I'm not a fan, but that doesn't alter the fact that they talk utter drivel.

What you are putting forward though is not much more than hypothetical nonsense, you just can't put forward what would happen if Bottas was faster when he is in fact slower, why should that even happen to Hamilton when it's never happened to him before in his career, no driver has ever been intrinsically faster than him race after race in qualifying and the race itself.


True, but we don't yet know where Bottas stands. He has only driven three races for Merc, can we honestly write him off as a number two based on that? Maybe he's like Kimi and needs the car to be a certain way, and when/if he gets it right then he will be WDC? I get the feeling that maybe Bottas is perhaps putting too much pressure on himself to match Lewis right from the off, which is understandable given his 'temporary' position in the team, the need to prove himself, etc...

Maybe Bottas isn't on Hamilton's level, it seems nuts to expect him to be a WDC contender when he hasn't even won a race yet. Surely even Wolff doesn't expect him to come into Hamilton's team and beat him year one?

Well I'm not putting that level of expectation on him It's others that are wanting Bottas to beat Hamilton hence the indignation we see with the team orders given against Bottas even though Bottas has been the slower driver thus far.

I thought that Bottas would be similar to Rosberg with him being a good qualifier, but one thing I sort of chose to ignore, probably because I like Bottas, is that even though he outscored Massa every season Massa would beat Bottas in the races as often as Bottas beat Massa and that was consistently so season on season.

So Bottas might be more like another Heikki than another Rosberg but like you say it's still early doors yet.

A similar thing used to happen with Rosber, though. He was always a better qualifier than racer


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I must admit I tend to believe respected F1 pundits rather than the likes of me or you who have no personal access to F1, people in the paddock tend to get to know what the score is.


Fine by me... so where are those "respected F1 pundits"? I believe one of the other forumites earlier asked for those quotes as they could not find then on-line when they searched.

So, poker.... tell us what is the SCORE? and... why did they not have Kimi move over for Seb in China if Seb is getting "preferential treatment" as you seem to be demanding for Lewis.

The score is that Kimi isn't obliged to move over for Vettel but Vettel gets the preference on race strategies.

So far this season Ferrari have given the preferential strategy to the driver that qualified ahead. Same as Merc

Just passing on what has been said in the paddock, also I wonder if you read a James Allen article that said that Kimi was deliberately left out on old tyres so he might interfere with Hamilton's race after he pitted, this to the detriment of Kimi's race itself.

Just about every race we see Kimi being left out on old tyres and complaining about his strategy, twice they eventually agreed with Kimi and pitted him for fresh tyres.

Which hasnt been happening exclusively to Kimi.... I do remember Vettel complaining about the strategy given and making his own decisions in 2 occasions last season, I also remember Vettel being left out on very old tires until they exploded in 2 other occasions. I also remember 1 time when Kimi pitted before Vettel where SkyF1 suggested that Ferrari did that just to get a hunch whether the right time to pit Vettel had come... damned if you pit him earlier, damned if you dont sort of thing.

In China that early stop for Vettel combined with the SC made it so Vettel would fall behind Kimi. In Bahrain, had the timing of the SC been just a little bit different Vettel could have been stuck in 6th or 7th position (again behind Kimi with 1 stop each). Now, knowing how much they want to portray Ferrari as "Vettel's team", had the roles been reversed (with Kimi falling behind Vettel after starting in front), I`m not so sure that they would have been regarded simply as misfortunes.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:27 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Blake wrote:
LMAO

So now, Bottas has a "qualifying setup" but not Hamilton. Why in the hell would you think that Merc would do that? Disadvantage their 2x WDC in favor of a driver in only his 3rd race for the team? Seriously... if they have such a mode, would they not give it to BOTH drivers in an effort to keep the Ferrari cars behind them?

Here we are in the after but 3 races in the season on the fourth page of a thread titled "Mercedes must back Hamilton, now". Somehow, you expect Bottas to be on a par with Lewis after only 3 races... Lewis who has been with the team, won a couple of WDCs with them, knows their personnel, their way of doing things.... and yet, it is time to screw Bottas to give Lewis an advantage over his teammate. Makes no difference to some of you what it might mean to Bottas, not any difference what it might mean to the team....

3 races into the season is too early to be making such a call on a new driver. Yeah, I know all about Austria 2002 and the 5th (or 6th) of the season, but at least neither driver was new to the team. BTW, I seem to recall some of those posting in favor of "backing Hamilton, now", having been extraordinarily critical of Ferrari for their actions in favor of one driver, yet here you are demanding the same thing for your driver. Rather hypocritical, is it not? And then there is the "justification" of how Vettel is getting that "help" at Ferrari right now, yet, as pointed out by another poster earlier, had Ferrari told Kimi to move over at China as Bottas did for Lewis last race, Seb might well have 3 wins this season already.

Some of the same posters have spent nearly 7 years making a meal out of "Fernando is faster than you"


The problem is, Alonso was not MUCH faster than Massa in Hockenheim 2010(Alonso finished the race just 4 seconds ahead) and is nothing Like:
- Monaco 2016 (Hamilton finished the race 99 seconds ahead)
- Bahrain 2017 (Hamilton finished the race 14 seconds ahead)

In Hockenheim Massa had the pace to WIN the race for his team with no other team inbetween and was handicapped for the benefit of Alonso. The team would have scored the same WCC points anyway, whilst in Bahrain 2017 there was a chance Hamilton would finish behind Ricciardo given how slow Bottas was driving.

Oh the comparison is being made to Hockenheim 2010 when the 2 Ferrari's were coasting to a 1-2, yeah that's exactly the same? :uhoh:

If Ferrari hadn't shat the bed in Abu Dhabi then the extra 7 points Alonso got at Hockenheim would probably have ended up being the difference between Alonso and Vettel winning the title.

I can't believe anyone would argue Ferrari did the wrong thing that day in terms of maximising the chance of a championship.

I wouldn't disagree with that, you think the comparison with Bottas and Hamilton was the same?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.

Rosberg was not put in that position against Hamilton, you have to show that you can hold your own to an extent.

Not sure the comparison is apt. As mentioned previously, there was never any need to issue team orders at Mercedes these last three years, since they were virtually guaranteed both titles anyway. This is the first year with genuine competition.

I don't think that would have changed for Rosberg if he had stayed.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I don't WISH Hamilton was the one losing points at all, I am no Lewis fan certainly, but I was merely suggesting that given that the results were reversed, would people be calling for Hamilton to support Bottas. I don't think so.

Yes, I hope Bottas does outqualify Hamilton. I hope Bottas wins the WDC to be honest. But mostly I hope there's a close, three way battle (or 4 way if Kimi can get his finger out) and the title is decided in the last race. If you genuinely want to know, my support is for Massa, and he's not going to win so all I really want is a close fight.

I'm sure other countries TV commentators are just as bad, but that doesn't make it acceptable. To my mind this constantly reinforces the idea that Hamilton is impervious in his fans mind, rather than accepting that sometimes he's just not as fast on every single lap, every single race. We know these cars are complex and doubtless there's very few times where the car is running perfect and every element is optimised. So technically, there's probably 70% of the race when the drivers are managing some niggle or other, but for the commentators it's become a crutch, "Oh he must have a problem". When does a niggle become a problem exactly?

I don't know if you remember but last year I had a signature which I eventually removed because some people took it to be anti-Hamilton (it wasn't, it was anti-commentator), and that just typified the kind of nonsense they spout. There was a race where the track was improving and Hamilton set a time that was half a second faster than anyone else had gone up to that point. The commentator spent the next minute spouting on about how majestic Hamilton was and how he was in a league of his own etc etc etc, the usual stuff. Next lap, Rosberg obliterated the time by about 3/4 of a second and they didn't say a thing.

It's not because it's Hamilton, it would annoy me whoever it was, because it's just ridiculous. Okay it maybe annoys me a bit more because it's Hamilton and I'm not a fan, but that doesn't alter the fact that they talk utter drivel.

What you are putting forward though is not much more than hypothetical nonsense, you just can't put forward what would happen if Bottas was faster when he is in fact slower, why should that even happen to Hamilton when it's never happened to him before in his career, no driver has ever been intrinsically faster than him race after race in qualifying and the race itself.


True, but we don't yet know where Bottas stands. He has only driven three races for Merc, can we honestly write him off as a number two based on that? Maybe he's like Kimi and needs the car to be a certain way, and when/if he gets it right then he will be WDC? I get the feeling that maybe Bottas is perhaps putting too much pressure on himself to match Lewis right from the off, which is understandable given his 'temporary' position in the team, the need to prove himself, etc...

Maybe Bottas isn't on Hamilton's level, it seems nuts to expect him to be a WDC contender when he hasn't even won a race yet. Surely even Wolff doesn't expect him to come into Hamilton's team and beat him year one?

Well I'm not putting that level of expectation on him It's others that are wanting Bottas to beat Hamilton hence the indignation we see with the team orders given against Bottas even though Bottas has been the slower driver thus far.

I thought that Bottas would be similar to Rosberg with him being a good qualifier, but one thing I sort of chose to ignore, probably because I like Bottas, is that even though he outscored Massa every season Massa would beat Bottas in the races as often as Bottas beat Massa and that was consistently so season on season.

So Bottas might be more like another Heikki than another Rosberg but like you say it's still early doors yet.

A similar thing used to happen with Rosber, though. He was always a better qualifier than racer

Rosberg lacked racecraft as much as anything, I would judge him stronger in race pace from what I've seen of Bottas thus far.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.

Rosberg was not put in that position against Hamilton, you have to show that you can hold your own to an extent.

Not sure the comparison is apt. As mentioned previously, there was never any need to issue team orders at Mercedes these last three years, since they were virtually guaranteed both titles anyway. This is the first year with genuine competition.

I don't think that would have changed for Rosberg if he had stayed.

how do you know this? The situation would still be the same. Ferrari would be winning races and Mercedes would be facing a choice between supporting one driver or risk losing the title


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Think it's abit harsh to be making comparisons between Bottas and Rosberg. The last 3 years was quite a ridiculous situation with the pace advantage Mercedes had. You could make a mistake in qualifying and still get 2nd, not even have the engine in full mode and still be 30 seconds up the road and cruising to a 1-2.
The mindset of Bottas would have been different in the last 3 years aswell. He would of known whoever gets round the first corner first and the win will most likely be his. I'm pretty sure Bottas would pick up wins over a season every season in the last 3.

Problem now is there's a great driver, car and strategy team all gelled together to rival them.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?


If he got good starts he would have got a good amount last year ;) .

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What you are putting forward though is not much more than hypothetical nonsense, you just can't put forward what would happen if Bottas was faster when he is in fact slower, why should that even happen to Hamilton when it's never happened to him before in his career, no driver has ever been intrinsically faster than him race after race in qualifying and the race itself.


True, but we don't yet know where Bottas stands. He has only driven three races for Merc, can we honestly write him off as a number two based on that? Maybe he's like Kimi and needs the car to be a certain way, and when/if he gets it right then he will be WDC? I get the feeling that maybe Bottas is perhaps putting too much pressure on himself to match Lewis right from the off, which is understandable given his 'temporary' position in the team, the need to prove himself, etc...

Maybe Bottas isn't on Hamilton's level, it seems nuts to expect him to be a WDC contender when he hasn't even won a race yet. Surely even Wolff doesn't expect him to come into Hamilton's team and beat him year one?

Well I'm not putting that level of expectation on him It's others that are wanting Bottas to beat Hamilton hence the indignation we see with the team orders given against Bottas even though Bottas has been the slower driver thus far.

I thought that Bottas would be similar to Rosberg with him being a good qualifier, but one thing I sort of chose to ignore, probably because I like Bottas, is that even though he outscored Massa every season Massa would beat Bottas in the races as often as Bottas beat Massa and that was consistently so season on season.

So Bottas might be more like another Heikki than another Rosberg but like you say it's still early doors yet.

A similar thing used to happen with Rosber, though. He was always a better qualifier than racer

Rosberg lacked racecraft as much as anything, I would judge him stronger in race pace from what I've seen of Bottas thus far.

I'd agree Bottas looks slower in the race. But I also recall conversations before the hybrids where the accusation was that Rosberg would qualify well and then go backwards in the races, so there is a sense of deja vu here to a certain extent.

I think Bottas still has the potential to improve. He's still getting used to the Mercedes so the current situation may still change over the course of the year


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?

Who knows? The Mercs rarely overtook each other and most of the time it was determined by whoever got pole. Nobody else was in the fight


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?


why not?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:47 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:

Fine by me... so where are those "respected F1 pundits"? I believe one of the other forumites earlier asked for those quotes as they could not find then on-line when they searched.

So, poker.... tell us what is the SCORE? and... why did they not have Kimi move over for Seb in China if Seb is getting "preferential treatment" as you seem to be demanding for Lewis.

The score is that Kimi isn't obliged to move over for Vettel but Vettel gets the preference on race strategies.

So far this season Ferrari have given the preferential strategy to the driver that qualified ahead. Same as Merc

Just passing on what has been said in the paddock, also I wonder if you read a James Allen article that said that Kimi was deliberately left out on old tyres so he might interfere with Hamilton's race after he pitted, this to the detriment of Kimi's race itself.

Just about every race we see Kimi being left out on old tyres and complaining about his strategy, twice they eventually agreed with Kimi and pitted him for fresh tyres.

Which hasnt been happening exclusively to Kimi.... I do remember Vettel complaining about the strategy given and making his own decisions in 2 occasions last season, I also remember Vettel being left out on very old tires until they exploded in 2 other occasions. I also remember 1 time when Kimi pitted before Vettel where SkyF1 suggested that Ferrari did that just to get a hunch whether the right time to pit Vettel had come... damned if you pit him earlier, damned if you dont sort of thing.

In China that early stop for Vettel combined with the SC made it so Vettel would fall behind Kimi. In Bahrain, had the timing of the SC been just a little bit different Vettel could have been stuck in 6th or 7th position (again behind Kimi with 1 stop each). Now, knowing how much they want to portray Ferrari as "Vettel's team", had the roles been reversed (with Kimi falling behind Vettel after starting in front), I`m not so sure that they would have been regarded simply as misfortunes.

That just shows how much Vettel can decide his own strategy, they called Vettel in and Vettel said no I'm stopping out so they leave them out, the 2 times he was left out and his tyres exploded seemed to be preplanned with the object of getting Vettel high onto the podium, compare with Kimi he's arguing to come in and they say no stop out, so he stops out and he's in no man's land with no chance of a podium.

I'm not sure you're making a case against what I said when you said they pitted Kimi first just so they could see when was the right time to pit Vettel?

Then going onto Vettel this year and I don't see how you can view good or bad luck with SC's being examples of Kimi could have been on better strategies?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I fear Bottas career is going to echo Massa's at Ferrari, every year he will start the year on supposedly 'equal' footing, but quickly ends up being asked to move over. And if the team become dominant again, he will be so demoralised and conditioned that he won't be able to snap himself back into the winning mentality. Probably why people like Hamilton and Vettel don't want someone like Alonso in the team with them, because he won't allow himself to get into that mindset.

Rosberg was not put in that position against Hamilton, you have to show that you can hold your own to an extent.

Not sure the comparison is apt. As mentioned previously, there was never any need to issue team orders at Mercedes these last three years, since they were virtually guaranteed both titles anyway. This is the first year with genuine competition.

I don't think that would have changed for Rosberg if he had stayed.

how do you know this? The situation would still be the same. Ferrari would be winning races and Mercedes would be facing a choice between supporting one driver or risk losing the title

But Rosberg is not Bottas, you are making a judgement that Rosberg would have performed at the same level as Bottas.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:51 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?


If he got good starts he would have got a good amount last year ;) .

True but still maybe not as many wins? ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:

True, but we don't yet know where Bottas stands. He has only driven three races for Merc, can we honestly write him off as a number two based on that? Maybe he's like Kimi and needs the car to be a certain way, and when/if he gets it right then he will be WDC? I get the feeling that maybe Bottas is perhaps putting too much pressure on himself to match Lewis right from the off, which is understandable given his 'temporary' position in the team, the need to prove himself, etc...

Maybe Bottas isn't on Hamilton's level, it seems nuts to expect him to be a WDC contender when he hasn't even won a race yet. Surely even Wolff doesn't expect him to come into Hamilton's team and beat him year one?

Well I'm not putting that level of expectation on him It's others that are wanting Bottas to beat Hamilton hence the indignation we see with the team orders given against Bottas even though Bottas has been the slower driver thus far.

I thought that Bottas would be similar to Rosberg with him being a good qualifier, but one thing I sort of chose to ignore, probably because I like Bottas, is that even though he outscored Massa every season Massa would beat Bottas in the races as often as Bottas beat Massa and that was consistently so season on season.

So Bottas might be more like another Heikki than another Rosberg but like you say it's still early doors yet.

A similar thing used to happen with Rosber, though. He was always a better qualifier than racer

Rosberg lacked racecraft as much as anything, I would judge him stronger in race pace from what I've seen of Bottas thus far.

I'd agree Bottas looks slower in the race. But I also recall conversations before the hybrids where the accusation was that Rosberg would qualify well and then go backwards in the races, so there is a sense of deja vu here to a certain extent.

I think Bottas still has the potential to improve. He's still getting used to the Mercedes so the current situation may still change over the course of the year

Before the hybrids was 2013 and that was probably Rosberg's best year performance wise relative to Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:55 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Perhaps Bottas is making Nico look a lot better than a lot of people wanted him credit for when he was around...

Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?


why not?

Just by judging Bottas performance thus far relative to Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed, Rosberg was a driver that was often underrated even when he was beating Schumacher because of his age.

I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?


why not?

Just by judging Bottas performance thus far relative to Rosberg.

So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:03 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


Bottas is nowhere near Rosberg in terms of race pace, I repeat nowhere near!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:07 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I suspect Bottas would also have finished 2nd most races these last three years, too

But maybe not as many wins?


why not?

Just by judging Bottas performance thus far relative to Rosberg.

So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.

Fair enough but for me Bottas looks easily beatable for Hamilton thus far, I couldn't always say that of Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But maybe not as many wins?


why not?

Just by judging Bottas performance thus far relative to Rosberg.


So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.

Fair enough but for me Bottas looks easily beatable for Hamilton thus far, I couldn't always say that of Rosberg.


Until last year, you pretty felt "Rosberg" was easily beatable by Lewis. After only three races on a new team, one would like to think that a 3x WDC with several years experience on that same team could beat a new driver on his team. Perhaps one should wait a few more races before condemning Bottas to eternally mediocre skills when compared to your man Hamilton. Perhaps even some races where he isn't told to move over and let Lewis pass.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:40 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:18 am 
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What makes you think that Mercedes are backing Hamilton less than Ferrari are backing Vettel?

Is it because of China, where Vettel spent 10 laps stuck behind Kimi and had to overtake him on merit?

Or Bahrain, where Bottas was told to move out of Hamilton's way, not once but twice.

The double standards are astounding. If Ferrari had told Kimi to let Vettel past twice in the third race of the season, people would be calling for their heads.


Last edited by KingVoid on Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:18 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


The reason why Rosberg was mighty in his last year with Merc was due to their suspension tricks.
It overall made the cars faster but the main effect it had was that Hamilton's cornering advantage was reduced. Basically it made the car easier to drive and as a result Rosberg was closer to Hamilton in pace.
Bottas doesn't have that so it does look like there is a clear gap between Ham vs Bottas.

Edit:
I suspect if Rosberg were still there in 2017 he would be off the pace.
2 reasons. 1 he achieved a life long dream to become WDC. It is hard to maintain motivation.
2. They removed the front suspension tricks.
I think he would be doing better than Bottas but not on Hamilton's level.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:19 am 
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Randine wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


The reason why Rosberg was mighty in his last year with Merc was due to their suspension tricks.
It overall made the cars faster but the main effect it had was that Hamilton's cornering advantage was reduced. Basically it made the car easier to drive and as a result Rosberg was closer to Hamilton in pace.
Bottas doesn't have that so it does look like there is a clear gap between Ham vs Bottas.

Does this suspension trick explain 2013 too?

Maybe, just maybe, Hamilton was never that much faster than Rosberg to begin with; just a thought.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:27 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Randine wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


The reason why Rosberg was mighty in his last year with Merc was due to their suspension tricks.
It overall made the cars faster but the main effect it had was that Hamilton's cornering advantage was reduced. Basically it made the car easier to drive and as a result Rosberg was closer to Hamilton in pace.
Bottas doesn't have that so it does look like there is a clear gap between Ham vs Bottas.

Does this suspension trick explain 2013 too?

Maybe, just maybe, Hamilton was never that much faster than Rosberg to begin with; just a thought.


My respect for Rosberg went up massively in 2016.
Lots of key poles and pressure drives. He deserved it even though Ham did suffer more car failures.
Had it had been Ham to retire last year, I think Rosberg would be clearly in front of Bottas.
In real terms the performance difference between Ham and Rosberg was such a small amount over their time together.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:29 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


Before the season started one higher up at Mercedes (I think it was Toto, but not sure) thought that if Bottas was in last year's car he wouldn't have finished 2nd in a lot of the races because his race pace was that much inferior to Hamilton. Now, maybe Bottas has improved a lot since then, but then again maybe not, after witnessing how slow he was in Bahrain.

Say what you want about Nico, but never once did I see him holding up cars that were 1 sec slower in raw pace in a dry race. Bottas is making Rosberg look really good right now.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:32 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I'm not putting that level of expectation on him It's others that are wanting Bottas to beat Hamilton hence the indignation we see with the team orders given against Bottas even though Bottas has been the slower driver thus far.

I thought that Bottas would be similar to Rosberg with him being a good qualifier, but one thing I sort of chose to ignore, probably because I like Bottas, is that even though he outscored Massa every season Massa would beat Bottas in the races as often as Bottas beat Massa and that was consistently so season on season.

So Bottas might be more like another Heikki than another Rosberg but like you say it's still early doors yet.

A similar thing used to happen with Rosber, though. He was always a better qualifier than racer

Rosberg lacked racecraft as much as anything, I would judge him stronger in race pace from what I've seen of Bottas thus far.

I'd agree Bottas looks slower in the race. But I also recall conversations before the hybrids where the accusation was that Rosberg would qualify well and then go backwards in the races, so there is a sense of deja vu here to a certain extent.

I think Bottas still has the potential to improve. He's still getting used to the Mercedes so the current situation may still change over the course of the year

Before the hybrids was 2013 and that was probably Rosberg's best year performance wise relative to Hamilton.

Doesn't change what I said


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:34 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rosberg was not put in that position against Hamilton, you have to show that you can hold your own to an extent.

Not sure the comparison is apt. As mentioned previously, there was never any need to issue team orders at Mercedes these last three years, since they were virtually guaranteed both titles anyway. This is the first year with genuine competition.

I don't think that would have changed for Rosberg if he had stayed.

how do you know this? The situation would still be the same. Ferrari would be winning races and Mercedes would be facing a choice between supporting one driver or risk losing the title

But Rosberg is not Bottas, you are making a judgement that Rosberg would have performed at the same level as Bottas.

I'm not making any judgement on Rosberg. I'm saying the dilemma faced would be the same and I'd bet the house that people would be making the same demands and threads about the need for Mercedes to back one driver. As long as that driver was Hamilton, of course


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:44 am 
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Randine wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


The reason why Rosberg was mighty in his last year with Merc was due to their suspension tricks.
It overall made the cars faster but the main effect it had was that Hamilton's cornering advantage was reduced. Basically it made the car easier to drive and as a result Rosberg was closer to Hamilton in pace.
Bottas doesn't have that so it does look like there is a clear gap between Ham vs Bottas.

Edit:
I suspect if Rosberg were still there in 2017 he would be off the pace.
2 reasons. 1 he achieved a life long dream to become WDC. It is hard to maintain motivation.
2. They removed the front suspension tricks.
I think he would be doing better than Bottas but not on Hamilton's level.


Yeah, bloody Mercedes making the car easier to drive (shakes fist theatrically). :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:35 am 
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I don't get the idea that Bottas somehow has this awful race pace compared to Rosberg. We've had 3 races and he has matched Hamilton for pace in 1 of them.

1 out of 3 seems better than Rosberg's ratio to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:38 am 
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Well, Mercedes did back Hamilton once they were sure he was the faster driver that day. Indeed Bottas was slow, but in the first stint, I think they really thought it was only about the tyre pressures, so they hoped once he changed tyres, everything will be fine. And even so, Bottas was able to hold up Vettel in the first stint, so had he come out in front, he might have won the race. The stacking in the pits was really unfortunate, the penalty for Hamilton, too. He backed up just a little too much (maybe also because Bottas stop was slower than usual). But once Mercedes saw that Bottas was much slower than Hamilton, and also got out behind Vettel, I think they backed Hamilton fully. You can't compare with Vettel vs Raikkonen, because Raikkonen never looked in contention to win the race (had a bad start and spent the first stint battling wit Massa), whereas Bottas did (at least at the beginning, as he was able to stay in front of Vettel even with his tyre problems).
As for the whole season, even though its still early, I see a pattern emerging (with 2 drivers faster than their team mates), and its highly likely that if this pattern will continue, for, say, the next 2-3 races, there will be a clear #1 and #2 order in both teams (which is clearly logical).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:32 am 
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I think it's nuts that after only 3 races people are already trying to compare the performance of a guy who has never won a race and is just bedding into a totally new environment vs. the current world champion

Give it half a season. Not every driver should be expected to pull a Dan Ricciardo

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:32 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't get the idea that Bottas somehow has this awful race pace compared to Rosberg. We've had 3 races and he has matched Hamilton for pace in 1 of them.

1 out of 3 seems better than Rosberg's ratio to me.

Not sure in what race Bottas "matched" Hamilton.

I assume that you are talking about Australia. In that race Hamilton was driving away from Bottas at a rate of 0.6 seconds/lap in the first half of the race, then he was held up behind Verstappen for about 5 laps (who was likely going a second/lap slower than what Lewis was capable of). In the second stint, Bottas had fresher tyres and was able to close the gap to Lewis a bit, but never more than 2-3 seconds. Hamilton probably gave up after Vettel jumped him anyway.

If that counts as "matched" race pace, then Rosberg matched Hamilton more than 50% of the time.

In China, Bottas was really poor in the wet. Then again, Rosberg was hardly a rainmaster either, so I suppose I can forgive him for that.

In Bahrain he was shockingly slow. Rosberg was crucified on the rare occasions he was that much slower than Lewis in a normal dry race.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:00 am 
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kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


Before the season started one higher up at Mercedes (I think it was Toto, but not sure) thought that if Bottas was in last year's car he wouldn't have finished 2nd in a lot of the races because his race pace was that much inferior to Hamilton. Now, maybe Bottas has improved a lot since then, but then again maybe not, after witnessing how slow he was in Bahrain.

Say what you want about Nico, but never once did I see him holding up cars that were 1 sec slower in raw pace in a dry race. Bottas is making Rosberg look really good right now.


I find it very hard to compare someones race pace from a period of ridicolous car domination to someone driving in a new team where the care is equal to the Ferrari.
Again if Bottas had been with the team a long time before the domination era and a time when you didn't need to be the faster car to win I'm sure we would see a different Bottas.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:03 am 
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Randine wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


The reason why Rosberg was mighty in his last year with Merc was due to their suspension tricks.
It overall made the cars faster but the main effect it had was that Hamilton's cornering advantage was reduced. Basically it made the car easier to drive and as a result Rosberg was closer to Hamilton in pace.
Bottas doesn't have that so it does look like there is a clear gap between Ham vs Bottas.

Edit:
I suspect if Rosberg were still there in 2017 he would be off the pace.
2 reasons. 1 he achieved a life long dream to become WDC. It is hard to maintain motivation.
2. They removed the front suspension tricks.
I think he would be doing better than Bottas but not on Hamilton's level.


I don't think Rosberg was mighty last year. It was IMO his worst year against Hamilton and I think his worst year for penalties, race craft, wet weather driving etc. Mighty is abit over the top IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:12 am 
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I think Rosberg did the best thing he could do, retiring at the top. Good for him, knowing his own self, a pity some other drivers didn't do the same.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:36 am 
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Randine wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.


I also agree Bottas hasn't done too bad, people have got to remember how long Rosberg had been at Mercedes before the domination. Also Bottas has joined the team when Ferrari have finally equaled them and I do enjoy the Ferrari/Vettel combo being aggressive on strategy and making Mercedes sweat.

How can race pace be compared between Rosberg and Bottas when Bottas would of most likely won last weekend in the last 3 years. That's the difference between another team fighting for the wins now.
Also you didn't need to be the fastest Mercedes to win the race but the majority of the time leading at turn 1. It was a two car race. It's always a battle within a team and you know your get the best strategy as number 1 car. What would of made things interesting is if Rosberg was still at the team now and having two world champions.


The reason why Rosberg was mighty in his last year with Merc was due to their suspension tricks.
It overall made the cars faster but the main effect it had was that Hamilton's cornering advantage was reduced. Basically it made the car easier to drive and as a result Rosberg was closer to Hamilton in pace.
Bottas doesn't have that so it does look like there is a clear gap between Ham vs Bottas.

Edit:
I suspect if Rosberg were still there in 2017 he would be off the pace.
2 reasons. 1 he achieved a life long dream to become WDC. It is hard to maintain motivation.
2. They removed the front suspension tricks.
I think he would be doing better than Bottas but not on Hamilton's level.


Rosberg had his worse season of the four pace wise in 2016. The reason he was "mighty" was because he had better reliability and made better starts, have people forgotten the races already? It was 6 months ago.

Hamilton lost the lead (starting from pole) to Rosberg 4 times into turn 1 and also started three races (10th,22nd and 20th) due to engine issues. That is 7 wins for Nico there immediately as we have all agreed above, it was a 2 car race over 2014-2016 with the winner decided over at turn 1, lap 1.

He was out qualified by Hamilton by over 0.3, 9 times in 18 Q3s. He had his heaviest defeat in qualifying in both head to head and in time.

His pace was much better during 2013 and the second half of 2015. The only time his pace was worse than 2016 was the first 10 races of 2015. He had one standout drive in Singapore, where as in 2013,2014 and 2015 he had several. The result doesn't always correlate to the performance and it doesn't have too.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:40 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
why not?

Just by judging Bottas performance thus far relative to Rosberg.


So far he has performed about as well as Rosberg did IMO and he's also only just joined the team, given some time to acclimatise I think he could be better than Rosberg was based on what I've seen so far.

Fair enough but for me Bottas looks easily beatable for Hamilton thus far, I couldn't always say that of Rosberg.


Until last year, you pretty felt "Rosberg" was easily beatable by Lewis. After only three races on a new team, one would like to think that a 3x WDC with several years experience on that same team could beat a new driver on his team. Perhaps one should wait a few more races before condemning Bottas to eternally mediocre skills when compared to your man Hamilton. Perhaps even some races where he isn't told to move over and let Lewis pass.

I guess you didn't read the thus far bit?

Just because I felt Hamilton was better than Rosberg I'm not sure that came under the easily beatable category?

Your own team Ferrari have done far worse to drivers regarding team orders and I doubt you would be critical of them but now all the concerns for Bottas for some reason, a driver I feel you wouldn't necessarily be a fan of?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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