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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:45 am 
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mcdo wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Fair enough. I don't think there's much point debating his race pace when we know his engine was down on power and eventually went bang... that's what annoys me about F1 'stats', when people look back at this race they will say Bottas qualified third, ran a distant third and retired with a blown engine. They'll also say Bottas was outqualified by such and such margin... actually this isn't about Bottas/Hamilton it applies to all the drivers, since we never know the state of their engines, people just read so much into everything but without all the facts it's pie in the sky, frankly.

I always try to get the message across to my non-F1 friends (of which there are many) that this sport can be debated forever because of the sheer amount of factors and intricacies, as you've spelt out above. And that's just the on-track stuff, the politics are a whole other ball game


Indeed, and now more than ever with engines and gearboxes having to be 'saved', as we saw with Hamilton backing way off in Sochi. At least in the old days everybody started each race with a fresh engine.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:32 am 
ALESI wrote:
lamo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was trying to get the lead, he switched slipstreams from Lewis to Vettel, momentarily attempted to go to the inside of Vettel but he cut it off. But as they got to the braking zone he had a very weak position. He had the inside with a car literally 1m ahead of him (risky to rear end Vettel), ideally in that scenario you move to the left but he probably wasn't sure he was completely clear of Kimi and it would have been quite a wild move in the braking zone. I think he played it quite well and lets not forget, he still over did it a bit because he hit Kimi. If you are on the inside you can't carry that much speed into T1, just look how Lewis got mugged into there last year and how much Lewis gained on Vettel overtaking him there yesterday, partly due to the line.

Watching it again, Bottas had no chance to get Lewis into turn 1, but if he had been more aggressive he could have held 3rd. Hamilton had the grippy racing line don't forget, Bottas had the dirty inside and a worse angle at the corner.

One thing I have noticed, on these long runs to turn one the cars behind really reel in the cars infront. Its probably because these wider cars are so draggy and the slipstream affect is higher this year. If two cars get an equal start at its a long run to turn 1, I am giving the the guy in P2 a very good chance to lead with these cars.


Bottas basically describing word for word what I said above -

"Yes, the start again was good. The getaway was nice and I was catching up pretty quickly on the guys in front. But this time there was nowhere to go. I was looking first to go left but there wasn't quite enough space. Then I tried on the inside because there was the gap initially but then Sebastian closed it and I was stuck behind him going into Turn One. I tried to keep inside and, of course, the guys on the outside always try to overtake you"

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... ttas-race/

Interesting, he was on a one stopper which was pretty obvious as he went to lap 27/66. Again, a mystery to why he was so slow in the first stint... he is very inconsistent in the races, especially the first stint. Mercedes are looking into it. He has had three really slow first stints now - Australia, Bahrain (all race really) and now Spain. China didn't have a first stint on qualifying tyres and Russia he was untouchable.


Fair enough. I don't think there's much point debating his race pace when we know his engine was down on power and eventually went bang... that's what annoys me about F1 'stats', when people look back at this race they will say Bottas qualified third, ran a distant third and retired with a blown engine. They'll also say Bottas was outqualified by such and such margin... actually this isn't about Bottas/Hamilton it applies to all the drivers, since we never know the state of their engines, people just read so much into everything but without all the facts it's pie in the sky, frankly.

Anyway, back to your original point, fair enough, though I'm not sure I can blame Bottas for the impact with Kimi, he seemed to brake incredibly early yet still managed to touch Kimi which suggests Kimi didn't leave enough room, or more likely the fact that he braked so early allowed Kimi to get round him. On the other hand he had Max on the outside so he was probably in the same position as Bottas.


Any meaningful analysis allows for as much of these things as possible. Because of the engine issue I wasn't critical of Bottas' race pace until I read him say from his own mouth he was slow and they are looking into why. If he is saying he is slow, he knows how close he should have been given the engine deficit. He also had a good pace when he switched to the medium, once you allow for fuel he lapped a similar pace to Hamilton.

The Bottas Spain weekend will still have an * next to it, just like Rosbergs Monza 2015 weekend or many of the weekends Hamilton had in 2016.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:46 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If that's how you determine a #2 driver then Kimi's been a #2 driver since the start of the season.

... and you don't think he has been?

Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:48 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
lamo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was trying to get the lead, he switched slipstreams from Lewis to Vettel, momentarily attempted to go to the inside of Vettel but he cut it off. But as they got to the braking zone he had a very weak position. He had the inside with a car literally 1m ahead of him (risky to rear end Vettel), ideally in that scenario you move to the left but he probably wasn't sure he was completely clear of Kimi and it would have been quite a wild move in the braking zone. I think he played it quite well and lets not forget, he still over did it a bit because he hit Kimi. If you are on the inside you can't carry that much speed into T1, just look how Lewis got mugged into there last year and how much Lewis gained on Vettel overtaking him there yesterday, partly due to the line.

Watching it again, Bottas had no chance to get Lewis into turn 1, but if he had been more aggressive he could have held 3rd. Hamilton had the grippy racing line don't forget, Bottas had the dirty inside and a worse angle at the corner.

One thing I have noticed, on these long runs to turn one the cars behind really reel in the cars infront. Its probably because these wider cars are so draggy and the slipstream affect is higher this year. If two cars get an equal start at its a long run to turn 1, I am giving the the guy in P2 a very good chance to lead with these cars.


Bottas basically describing word for word what I said above -

"Yes, the start again was good. The getaway was nice and I was catching up pretty quickly on the guys in front. But this time there was nowhere to go. I was looking first to go left but there wasn't quite enough space. Then I tried on the inside because there was the gap initially but then Sebastian closed it and I was stuck behind him going into Turn One. I tried to keep inside and, of course, the guys on the outside always try to overtake you"

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... ttas-race/

Interesting, he was on a one stopper which was pretty obvious as he went to lap 27/66. Again, a mystery to why he was so slow in the first stint... he is very inconsistent in the races, especially the first stint. Mercedes are looking into it. He has had three really slow first stints now - Australia, Bahrain (all race really) and now Spain. China didn't have a first stint on qualifying tyres and Russia he was untouchable.


Well he thinks the car might have been damaged from the contact with Kimi. But yeah so far he has only had one good race where he had good race pace.


I am a bit surprised that people haven't been mentioning that Bottas is using an old engine and Hamilton is useing a totally new upgraded one. There is no doubt that has some impact. During the race, the gap between the drivers gradually increased until the engine failed. Doesn't that explain a little something? Bottas was right up close to Hamilton in practice until he got his engine changes. He qualifying and race result may possibly have been totally different if it wasn't for his engine.

And when Kleefton says Bottas only had one race with good race pace, It's not like he hasn't had parts of other races with strong pace. He's also had more issues than Haimilton so far. In Bahrain, he was clearly affected by his issues at the start and he also said afterwards that his car has a huge lack of grip even later in the race which may explain his poor pace. I'm almost certain some would be defending Hamilton if he's have been in Bottas's situation. Bottas rarely makes excuses for problems with the car unless they are true. In Australia, Bottas may have had a poor start, but he was very strong later on and catching right up with Hamilton at the end. Even if Hamilton had an issue then, it's not like Bottas hasn't hit trouble in other races.

In Russia, when Hamilton was apparently having issues, the team also said that other drivers including Bottas were having the same problems. Although it may have affected Hamilton a bit, Bottas still looked to have outperformed Hamilton that weekend by a bigger margin than Hamilton has outperformed him at any other race this year. I think he'll still have several races where his performance is better than Hamilton’s.

It is still clear that Hamilton is better, but I still think Bottas is better than most think and has been suffering more bad luck than his team mate. His starts off the line have certainly been better than Hamilton in the past couple of races.

I thought that in Friday practice on the long runs Hamilton was that bit faster than Bottas?

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:50 am 
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
lamo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was trying to get the lead, he switched slipstreams from Lewis to Vettel, momentarily attempted to go to the inside of Vettel but he cut it off. But as they got to the braking zone he had a very weak position. He had the inside with a car literally 1m ahead of him (risky to rear end Vettel), ideally in that scenario you move to the left but he probably wasn't sure he was completely clear of Kimi and it would have been quite a wild move in the braking zone. I think he played it quite well and lets not forget, he still over did it a bit because he hit Kimi. If you are on the inside you can't carry that much speed into T1, just look how Lewis got mugged into there last year and how much Lewis gained on Vettel overtaking him there yesterday, partly due to the line.

Watching it again, Bottas had no chance to get Lewis into turn 1, but if he had been more aggressive he could have held 3rd. Hamilton had the grippy racing line don't forget, Bottas had the dirty inside and a worse angle at the corner.

One thing I have noticed, on these long runs to turn one the cars behind really reel in the cars infront. Its probably because these wider cars are so draggy and the slipstream affect is higher this year. If two cars get an equal start at its a long run to turn 1, I am giving the the guy in P2 a very good chance to lead with these cars.


Bottas basically describing word for word what I said above -

"Yes, the start again was good. The getaway was nice and I was catching up pretty quickly on the guys in front. But this time there was nowhere to go. I was looking first to go left but there wasn't quite enough space. Then I tried on the inside because there was the gap initially but then Sebastian closed it and I was stuck behind him going into Turn One. I tried to keep inside and, of course, the guys on the outside always try to overtake you"

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... ttas-race/

Interesting, he was on a one stopper which was pretty obvious as he went to lap 27/66. Again, a mystery to why he was so slow in the first stint... he is very inconsistent in the races, especially the first stint. Mercedes are looking into it. He has had three really slow first stints now - Australia, Bahrain (all race really) and now Spain. China didn't have a first stint on qualifying tyres and Russia he was untouchable.


Well he thinks the car might have been damaged from the contact with Kimi. But yeah so far he has only had one good race where he had good race pace.


I am a bit surprised that people haven't been mentioning that Bottas is using an old engine and Hamilton is useing a totally new upgraded one. There is no doubt that has some impact. During the race, the gap between the drivers gradually increased until the engine failed. Doesn't that explain a little something?


Nobody is mentioning it because everybody knows it as nobody expected him to challenge Hamilton this weekend since he changed engines. However, I brought it up because he has said himself his pace was poor so he must know where he should have been.

Also, that isn't right, he was slowest at the very start of the race. He lost 5 seconds to Hamilton in the first 5 laps and then only another 5 in the next 15 laps. By the time his engine blew his race pace was actually very solid on the medium tyre. He was lapping the same speed as Hamilton although he had 5 lap fresher tyres. He was basically 0.5 a lap slower in that first stint, I guess he knows the engine disadvantage (which would be less in the race than qualifying I would guess) so for him to be disappointed in his pace it would need to be around 0.150-0.300

I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:30 pm 
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lamo wrote:
I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.

If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:44 pm 
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lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
lamo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was trying to get the lead, he switched slipstreams from Lewis to Vettel, momentarily attempted to go to the inside of Vettel but he cut it off. But as they got to the braking zone he had a very weak position. He had the inside with a car literally 1m ahead of him (risky to rear end Vettel), ideally in that scenario you move to the left but he probably wasn't sure he was completely clear of Kimi and it would have been quite a wild move in the braking zone. I think he played it quite well and lets not forget, he still over did it a bit because he hit Kimi. If you are on the inside you can't carry that much speed into T1, just look how Lewis got mugged into there last year and how much Lewis gained on Vettel overtaking him there yesterday, partly due to the line.

Watching it again, Bottas had no chance to get Lewis into turn 1, but if he had been more aggressive he could have held 3rd. Hamilton had the grippy racing line don't forget, Bottas had the dirty inside and a worse angle at the corner.

One thing I have noticed, on these long runs to turn one the cars behind really reel in the cars infront. Its probably because these wider cars are so draggy and the slipstream affect is higher this year. If two cars get an equal start at its a long run to turn 1, I am giving the the guy in P2 a very good chance to lead with these cars.


Bottas basically describing word for word what I said above -

"Yes, the start again was good. The getaway was nice and I was catching up pretty quickly on the guys in front. But this time there was nowhere to go. I was looking first to go left but there wasn't quite enough space. Then I tried on the inside because there was the gap initially but then Sebastian closed it and I was stuck behind him going into Turn One. I tried to keep inside and, of course, the guys on the outside always try to overtake you"

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... ttas-race/

Interesting, he was on a one stopper which was pretty obvious as he went to lap 27/66. Again, a mystery to why he was so slow in the first stint... he is very inconsistent in the races, especially the first stint. Mercedes are looking into it. He has had three really slow first stints now - Australia, Bahrain (all race really) and now Spain. China didn't have a first stint on qualifying tyres and Russia he was untouchable.


Well he thinks the car might have been damaged from the contact with Kimi. But yeah so far he has only had one good race where he had good race pace.


I am a bit surprised that people haven't been mentioning that Bottas is using an old engine and Hamilton is useing a totally new upgraded one. There is no doubt that has some impact. During the race, the gap between the drivers gradually increased until the engine failed. Doesn't that explain a little something?


Nobody is mentioning it because everybody knows it as nobody expected him to challenge Hamilton this weekend since he changed engines. However, I brought it up because he has said himself his pace was poor so he must know where he should have been.

Also, that isn't right, he was slowest at the very start of the race. He lost 5 seconds to Hamilton in the first 5 laps and then only another 5 in the next 15 laps. By the time his engine blew his race pace was actually very solid on the medium tyre. He was lapping the same speed as Hamilton although he had 5 lap fresher tyres. He was basically 0.5 a lap slower in that first stint, I guess he knows the engine disadvantage (which would be less in the race than qualifying I would guess) so for him to be disappointed in his pace it would need to be around 0.150-0.300

I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.


Yeah did notice that bottas pace was much better on the mediums. I also dont think the engine deficit was that great unless he couldnt turn it up.
I guess we need more races to see where he truly stands. So far he has not shown to be nearly as quick as Ham except for the russian race.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:56 pm 
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In a way it's refreshing to hear a driver being so honest, but I'm not sure it's to his advantage to be so candid.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:04 pm 
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.

If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton


If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper which means it is decided in the first stint and around the pit stops. I don't think a single car changed position after the first stop, race was over.

Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:44 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.

If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton


If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper decided around the pit stops. Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.

If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers ended up crossing the finish line together. Either both drove a good race or both drove a poor race

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:46 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.

If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton


If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper decided around the pit stops. Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.

If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together. Either both drove a good race or both drove a poor race

That's completely ignoring the fact that Hamilton turned down his engine in the latter part of the race and just coasted in with the 2nd place finish. You make it sound as if both he and Bottas were pushing hard at the end.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.

If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton


If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper decided around the pit stops. Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.

If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together. Either both drove a good race or both drove a poor race

That's completely ignoring the fact that Hamilton turned down his engine in the latter part of the race and just coasted in with the 2nd place finish. You make it sound as if both he and Bottas were pushing hard at the end.

Did Bottas have his engine up at max for no reason whatsoever?

The reason I've read was the tyre discrepancy, which again goes back to Lewis' too short first stint

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:52 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together. Either both drove a good race or both drove a poor race

That's completely ignoring the fact that Hamilton turned down his engine in the latter part of the race and just coasted in with the 2nd place finish. You make it sound as if both he and Bottas were pushing hard at the end.

Did Bottas have his engine up at max for no reason whatsoever?

The reason I've read was the tyre discrepancy, which again goes back to Lewis' too short first stint

Neither one of them was pushing late in the race. Both just held station there. Lewis pitting early was a mistake but Bottas was not on his pace in that race. Also his tires still had plenty of life in them when he pitted early just to clarify.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:52 pm 
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.

If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton


If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper decided around the pit stops. Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.

If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together


He didn't chew through them, they actually had 30% life left confirmed by Pirelli and he was lapping as quick as ever and Vettel didn't lap quicker when released. They made errors, both driver and pit wall and panicked and were a bit rusty strategy wise having to race somebody without a huge car advantage.

But the fact is Hamilton nearly/could/should have won. Bottas started P3 and never had any opportunity to do any better, solely due to his first stint. Bottas did catch a coasting Hamilton but he had a large tyre advantage in the second stint, Hamilton wasn't able to use the phase where he had a tyre advantage over Bottas as he was stuck behind Max. Hamilton was 9.6 seconds ahead of Bottas when he pitted, when Bottas pitted that gap was 7.8 seconds. Hamilton actually lost time to him (Max cost Lewis about 8-9 seconds) when he would have been opening up a large gap. Mercedes said they expected Red Bull to pit, an error of judgement. Then Bottas of course had tyres 8 laps fresher than Lewis for the last stint.

Bottas was poor because he was just slow.
Hamilton finished close to Bottas because he got held up for 7 laps and then had more worn tyres and partly because he settled for 2nd and coasted home. When Bottas did actually catch him, he responded to Bottas' pace and the fight was over.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:28 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
I also think you have to fall on your sword, a bad weekend is bad weekend. Hamilton was very poor in Russia and Bottas has been poor (if he are judging him as a Hamilton equal) in 4 of the 5 races at some point.

If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton


If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper decided around the pit stops. Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.

If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together


He didn't chew through them, they actually had 30% life left confirmed by Pirelli and he was lapping as quick as ever and Vettel didn't lap quicker when released. They made errors, both driver and pit wall and panicked and were a bit rusty strategy wise having to race somebody without a huge car advantage.

But the fact is Hamilton nearly/could/should have won. Bottas started P3 and never had any opportunity to do any better, solely due to his first stint. Bottas did catch a coasting Hamilton but he had a large tyre advantage in the second stint, Hamilton wasn't able to use the phase where he had a tyre advantage over Bottas as he was stuck behind Max. Hamilton was 9.6 seconds ahead of Bottas when he pitted, when Bottas pitted that gap was 7.8 seconds. Hamilton actually lost time to him (Max cost Lewis about 8-9 seconds) when he would have been opening up a large gap. Mercedes said they expected Red Bull to pit, an error of judgement. Then Bottas of course had tyres 8 laps fresher than Lewis for the last stint.

Bottas was poor because he was just slow.
Hamilton finished close to Bottas because he got held up for 7 laps and then had more worn tyres and partly because he settled for 2nd and coasted home. When Bottas did actually catch him, he responded to Bottas' pace and the fight was over.

Bottas never had the pace to win, that much is true. But the other side of the garage screwing the strategy was not his problem. Assuming Red Bull would pit or worse, expecting to coast past Max in Albert Park, was quite a blunder. Bottas then had the tyre advantage to reel his teammate in because, as you've corrected me, his teammate and the pitwall actually just panicked in the first stint. They threw their own race away. Either that's "poor" or it's not. And if it's not then Bottas wasn't "poor" either

2nd & 3rd isn't poor in my book but other people hold higher standards

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
lamo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was trying to get the lead, he switched slipstreams from Lewis to Vettel, momentarily attempted to go to the inside of Vettel but he cut it off. But as they got to the braking zone he had a very weak position. He had the inside with a car literally 1m ahead of him (risky to rear end Vettel), ideally in that scenario you move to the left but he probably wasn't sure he was completely clear of Kimi and it would have been quite a wild move in the braking zone. I think he played it quite well and lets not forget, he still over did it a bit because he hit Kimi. If you are on the inside you can't carry that much speed into T1, just look how Lewis got mugged into there last year and how much Lewis gained on Vettel overtaking him there yesterday, partly due to the line.

Watching it again, Bottas had no chance to get Lewis into turn 1, but if he had been more aggressive he could have held 3rd. Hamilton had the grippy racing line don't forget, Bottas had the dirty inside and a worse angle at the corner.

One thing I have noticed, on these long runs to turn one the cars behind really reel in the cars infront. Its probably because these wider cars are so draggy and the slipstream affect is higher this year. If two cars get an equal start at its a long run to turn 1, I am giving the the guy in P2 a very good chance to lead with these cars.


Bottas basically describing word for word what I said above -

"Yes, the start again was good. The getaway was nice and I was catching up pretty quickly on the guys in front. But this time there was nowhere to go. I was looking first to go left but there wasn't quite enough space. Then I tried on the inside because there was the gap initially but then Sebastian closed it and I was stuck behind him going into Turn One. I tried to keep inside and, of course, the guys on the outside always try to overtake you"

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... ttas-race/

Interesting, he was on a one stopper which was pretty obvious as he went to lap 27/66. Again, a mystery to why he was so slow in the first stint... he is very inconsistent in the races, especially the first stint. Mercedes are looking into it. He has had three really slow first stints now - Australia, Bahrain (all race really) and now Spain. China didn't have a first stint on qualifying tyres and Russia he was untouchable.


Well he thinks the car might have been damaged from the contact with Kimi. But yeah so far he has only had one good race where he had good race pace.


I am a bit surprised that people haven't been mentioning that Bottas is using an old engine and Hamilton is useing a totally new upgraded one. There is no doubt that has some impact. During the race, the gap between the drivers gradually increased until the engine failed. Doesn't that explain a little something? Bottas was right up close to Hamilton in practice until he got his engine changes. He qualifying and race result may possibly have been totally different if it wasn't for his engine.

And when Kleefton says Bottas only had one race with good race pace, It's not like he hasn't had parts of other races with strong pace. He's also had more issues than Haimilton so far. In Bahrain, he was clearly affected by his issues at the start and he also said afterwards that his car has a huge lack of grip even later in the race which may explain his poor pace. I'm almost certain some would be defending Hamilton if he's have been in Bottas's situation. Bottas rarely makes excuses for problems with the car unless they are true. In Australia, Bottas may have had a poor start, but he was very strong later on and catching right up with Hamilton at the end. Even if Hamilton had an issue then, it's not like Bottas hasn't hit trouble in other races.

In Russia, when Hamilton was apparently having issues, the team also said that other drivers including Bottas were having the same problems. Although it may have affected Hamilton a bit, Bottas still looked to have outperformed Hamilton that weekend by a bigger margin than Hamilton has outperformed him at any other race this year. I think he'll still have several races where his performance is better than Hamilton’s.

It is still clear that Hamilton is better, but I still think Bottas is better than most think and has been suffering more bad luck than his team mate. His starts off the line have certainly been better than Hamilton in the past couple of races.

I thought that in Friday practice on the long runs Hamilton was that bit faster than Bottas?


Yes, that was true. I didn't say Hamilton wasn't ahead. After the 2 decent practice runs, his pace with the old engine did seem to drop a fair bit.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If that's how you determine a #2 driver then Kimi's been a #2 driver since the start of the season.

... and you don't think he has been?

Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Yeah, Massa can say that if he wants, but the truth is that Kimi won't be beating Seb because he's not able to. On the one or two occasions where he's in position to beat Vettel, it will be because Vettel's had a bad race or qualified out of position - and on those occasions I expect he will in fact be allowed to. If China was any indication, they're not going to jump to order Kimi out of the way, even though there was a good case that they should have done.

Massa was allowed to beat Alonso too, on the very rare days he was able to.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:47 pm 
mcdo wrote:
Bottas never had the pace to win, that much is true. But the other side of the garage screwing the strategy was not his problem. Assuming Red Bull would pit or worse, expecting to coast past Max in Albert Park, was quite a blunder. Bottas then had the tyre advantage to reel his teammate in because, as you've corrected me, his teammate and the pitwall actually just panicked in the first stint. They threw their own race away. Either that's "poor" or it's not. And if it's not then Bottas wasn't "poor" either

2nd & 3rd isn't poor in my book but other people hold higher standards


Bottas was also 3rd in Spain, which would have also been 2nd and 3rd too.. I am analysing the performance not the result.

Bottas came close to Lewis because Lewis was held up not because Bottas was quick. If both had traffic free races, Bottas finishes 15+ seconds behind. Bottas was able to finish close to Lewis because he got held up and Bottas ran clear air the entire race. I am much more interested in the performance level rather than what happened to be the end result. The performance level tells you what a driver is capable of, a SC or traffic influencing a result tells you a lot less.

Its the same as the last race, Vettel did not under perform at all. He also got held up (losing 6-7 seconds) and that pretty much lost him the race too. Similar to what happened to Lewis in Australia.


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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
If Bottas was poor in Oz, so was Hamilton


If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper decided around the pit stops. Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.

If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together. Either both drove a good race or both drove a poor race

That's completely ignoring the fact that Hamilton turned down his engine in the latter part of the race and just coasted in with the 2nd place finish. You make it sound as if both he and Bottas were pushing hard at the end.

Did Bottas have his engine up at max for no reason whatsoever?

The reason I've read was the tyre discrepancy, which again goes back to Lewis' too short first stint

That really wasn't Hamilton's fault he was pulling away from Bottas at nearly a second a lap yet Mercedes were telling Hamilton to drive faster in order to protect him from the undercut from Vettel and despite Hamilton complaining that his rear tyres were over heating.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:04 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If that's how you determine a #2 driver then Kimi's been a #2 driver since the start of the season.

... and you don't think he has been?

Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Massa did drive for Ferrari for 8 years and is quite well qualified to understand how they operate, I'm not sure anyone would be as qualified to give that opinion regarding Bottas and Hamilton, perhaps only Rosberg?

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:09 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Yeah, Massa can say that if he wants, but the truth is that Kimi won't be beating Seb because he's not able to. On the one or two occasions where he's in position to beat Vettel, it will be because Vettel's had a bad race or qualified out of position - and on those occasions I expect he will in fact be allowed to. If China was any indication, they're not going to jump to order Kimi out of the way, even though there was a good case that they should have done.

Massa was allowed to beat Alonso too, on the very rare days he was able to.

Massa was allowed to beat Alonso for the first few races of the 2010 season until team orders were issued in Germany and there it ended.

It's an opinion put forward by Massa and some F1 pundits about the pecking order between Vettel and Kimi, regarding Hamilton and Bottas there has only been opinion put forward by some F1 pundits that perhaps Mercedes need to back Hamilton sooner rather than later.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Massa was allowed to beat Alonso for the first few races of the 2010 season until team orders were issued in Germany and there it ended.

It's an opinion put forward by Massa and some F1 pundits about the pecking order between Vettel and Kimi, regarding Hamilton and Bottas there has only been opinion put forward by some F1 pundits that perhaps Mercedes need to back Hamilton sooner rather than later.

So how do you account for the fact that Massa beat Alonso in 2 of the first 3 races in 2011? On both occasions he finished directly ahead, so Ferrari could easily have swapped the order. They didn't, so the claim that Massa wasn't allowed to beat Alonso after Germany is false.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:15 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Massa was allowed to beat Alonso for the first few races of the 2010 season until team orders were issued in Germany and there it ended.

It's an opinion put forward by Massa and some F1 pundits about the pecking order between Vettel and Kimi, regarding Hamilton and Bottas there has only been opinion put forward by some F1 pundits that perhaps Mercedes need to back Hamilton sooner rather than later.

So how do you account for the fact that Massa beat Alonso in 2 of the first 3 races in 2011? On both occasions he finished directly ahead, so Ferrari could easily have swapped the order. They didn't, so the claim that Massa wasn't allowed to beat Alonso after Germany is false.

In Malaysia Alonso finished 21 seconds behind Massa after he completely broke his front wing in the opening laps and had a slow lap back to the pits to replace it, I wouldn't expect Massa to pull up at the side of the track waiting for Alonso to catch up.

I'm not sure what happened to Alonso in China but he was 15 seconds behind Massa who was battling Rosberg for 5th place whilst Alonso himself had Schumacher right behind him, I would imagine also to organise a change of position to be a bit unpractical?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:58 am 
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Massa was at Ferrari in the Luca days. That was two TP's ago so I don't believe he has any particular insight to how the team is run today.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:16 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If that's how you determine a #2 driver then Kimi's been a #2 driver since the start of the season.

... and you don't think he has been?

Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Massa did drive for Ferrari for 8 years and is quite well qualified to understand how they operate, I'm not sure anyone would be as qualified to give that opinion regarding Bottas and Hamilton, perhaps only Rosberg?


So, where have you(and Massa) been throughout the 2016 season when Kimi beat Vettel in several races?

Rosberg? Yes. Using similar reasoning, one could say that Rosberg found out 1st hand (very early on in 2013 season) by Brown's divine intervention that he would not be allowed to beat Hamilton and only the fact that Mercedes later became dominant put an end to it... as evidenced by the fact that this season that their domination has ended, the signs of Mercedes using a Nr1 driver policy this season are pretty strong.

But any other team enjoying a supremacy similar to that of Mercedes 2014 - 2016, would have given their drivers equal status too, including Ferrari.
And things change, and if Kimi isnt really allowed to beat Vettel, Bottas wont be allowed to beat Hamilton, even more so, not only because Bottas seems closer to Lewis than Kimi to Vettel, but past history and fantasies apart, what has really happen on track so far this reason points at that.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:45 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Massa was at Ferrari in the Luca days. That was two TP's ago so I don't believe he has any particular insight to how the team is run today.

But we still have a more credible source in Lewis Hamilton confirming it in 2015 when he said "Vettel will have preferential treatment whilst himself will never need or ask for it"...


Ohhh right, that statement looks rather ridiculous at present :blush:


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:36 am 
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Migen wrote:
Rosberg? Yes. Using similar reasoning, one could say that Rosberg found out 1st hand (very early on in 2013 season) by Brown's divine intervention that he would not be allowed to beat Hamilton and only the fact that Mercedes later became dominant put an end to it... as evidenced by the fact that this season that their domination has ended, the signs of Mercedes using a Nr1 driver policy this season are pretty strong.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Rosberg was a number two in 2013. Yes, Brawn clearly brought Lewis to the team with the intention of him being their lead driver, but as far as I'm aware Malaysia was the only time the two weren't treated equally in any concrete way. I think once Mercedes realized they weren't in the championship fight (because nobody was) they quickly abandoned any such ideas if they ever had any.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If that's how you determine a #2 driver then Kimi's been a #2 driver since the start of the season.

... and you don't think he has been?

Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Massa did drive for Ferrari for 8 years and is quite well qualified to understand how they operate, I'm not sure anyone would be as qualified to give that opinion regarding Bottas and Hamilton, perhaps only Rosberg?

Massa never drove for Ferrari under the current regime, so I doubt he's any more qualified than anyone else to say what might be possible there. It's likely he's just reflecting on his own time there and basing his conclusions on that


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:10 am 
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As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:24 am 
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lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Bottas never had the pace to win, that much is true. But the other side of the garage screwing the strategy was not his problem. Assuming Red Bull would pit or worse, expecting to coast past Max in Albert Park, was quite a blunder. Bottas then had the tyre advantage to reel his teammate in because, as you've corrected me, his teammate and the pitwall actually just panicked in the first stint. They threw their own race away. Either that's "poor" or it's not. And if it's not then Bottas wasn't "poor" either

2nd & 3rd isn't poor in my book but other people hold higher standards


Bottas was also 3rd in Spain, which would have also been 2nd and 3rd too.. I am analysing the performance not the result.

Bottas came close to Lewis because Lewis was held up not because Bottas was quick. If both had traffic free races, Bottas finishes 15+ seconds behind. Bottas was able to finish close to Lewis because he got held up and Bottas ran clear air the entire race. I am much more interested in the performance level rather than what happened to be the end result. The performance level tells you what a driver is capable of, a SC or traffic influencing a result tells you a lot less.

Its the same as the last race, Vettel did not under perform at all. He also got held up (losing 6-7 seconds) and that pretty much lost him the race too. Similar to what happened to Lewis in Australia.

Held up because of their own actions in the first stint. They did it to themselves. Performance isn't worth jack if you screw the strategy. They're part and parcel of the whole deal

Ferrari lost the Spanish GP by pitting too early in the first stint as well. It's their own fault that they lost the race. Vettel drove very well and finished 2nd. If Kimi was glued to his gearbox crossing the line I would have said they both drove a good race. Like I'm saying about both Mercs in Oz

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:31 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
If Bottas had pace in the first stint he could have challenged for the win, it was a one stopper decided around the pit stops. Hamilton would have won if he didn't come out behind Max. Bottas lost his chance to win in the first stint when he fell 10 seconds behind the leaders that secured him P3.

If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together. Either both drove a good race or both drove a poor race

That's completely ignoring the fact that Hamilton turned down his engine in the latter part of the race and just coasted in with the 2nd place finish. You make it sound as if both he and Bottas were pushing hard at the end.

Did Bottas have his engine up at max for no reason whatsoever?

The reason I've read was the tyre discrepancy, which again goes back to Lewis' too short first stint

That really wasn't Hamilton's fault he was pulling away from Bottas at nearly a second a lap yet Mercedes were telling Hamilton to drive faster in order to protect him from the undercut from Vettel and despite Hamilton complaining that his rear tyres were over heating.

So? That's not Bottas' problem. A good result can come to you by the time the flag drops. JB was the master of it. Finishing his first Merc race glued to his 3xWDC teammate's gearbox was a good result

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:42 am 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
... and you don't think he has been?

Kimi is Ferrari's number two driver. Everyone knows that.

Which sort of leads us back to the thread topic which I don't necessarily agree with but in the races themselves when Bottas is off the pace it would be rather foolish of Mercedes not to use him to the benefit of Hamilton as we know that is the game that Ferrari would play with Kimi, Massa has actually said that Kimi would not be allowed to beat Vettel.

Hallelujah... we finally know now why Kimi has not beaten Seb this season!

But whether that's exactly what Massa said, or your own interpretation to it, its still utter crap.
Just think of it, if someone had suggested the same in Hamilton's favor in relation to Bottas, you and few others here would be gunning down that "Hamilton hater", for sure.

Massa did drive for Ferrari for 8 years and is quite well qualified to understand how they operate, I'm not sure anyone would be as qualified to give that opinion regarding Bottas and Hamilton, perhaps only Rosberg?


So, where have you(and Massa) been throughout the 2016 season when Kimi beat Vettel in several races?

Rosberg? Yes. Using similar reasoning, one could say that Rosberg found out 1st hand (very early on in 2013 season) by Brown's divine intervention that he would not be allowed to beat Hamilton and only the fact that Mercedes later became dominant put an end to it... as evidenced by the fact that this season that their domination has ended, the signs of Mercedes using a Nr1 driver policy this season are pretty strong.

But any other team enjoying a supremacy similar to that of Mercedes 2014 - 2016, would have given their drivers equal status too, including Ferrari.
And things change, and if Kimi isnt really allowed to beat Vettel, Bottas wont be allowed to beat Hamilton, even more so, not only because Bottas seems closer to Lewis than Kimi to Vettel, but past history and fantasies apart, what has really happen on track so far this reason points at that.

Ross Brawn basically lost his job by issuing team orders against Rosberg.

We that post on here are far removed from what happens in F1 as opposed to those that work in the F1 paddock and I've heard several of these people state that Vettel is the #1 driver at Ferrari but none have said that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes although some have said he should be made the #1 driver.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:51 am 
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Migen wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Massa was at Ferrari in the Luca days. That was two TP's ago so I don't believe he has any particular insight to how the team is run today.

But we still have a more credible source in Lewis Hamilton confirming it in 2015 when he said "Vettel will have preferential treatment whilst himself will never need or ask for it"...


Ohhh right, that statement looks rather ridiculous at present :blush:

None of us knows what preferential treatment might imply, in the case of Ferrari I've heard it being said that Vettel gets preferential treatment on strategies, so I guess in comparison to Mercedes he would be allowed to undercut his teammate but as Vettel has been dominant against Kimi thus far we've not seen that scenario play out.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:53 am 
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ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:57 am 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
If Hamiton didn't use up his tyres and pit early he wouldn't have ended up behind Max. Cause and effect. Then Hamilton's pace dropped and the Merc drivers crossed the finish line together. Either both drove a good race or both drove a poor race

That's completely ignoring the fact that Hamilton turned down his engine in the latter part of the race and just coasted in with the 2nd place finish. You make it sound as if both he and Bottas were pushing hard at the end.

Did Bottas have his engine up at max for no reason whatsoever?

The reason I've read was the tyre discrepancy, which again goes back to Lewis' too short first stint

That really wasn't Hamilton's fault he was pulling away from Bottas at nearly a second a lap yet Mercedes were telling Hamilton to drive faster in order to protect him from the undercut from Vettel and despite Hamilton complaining that his rear tyres were over heating.

So? That's not Bottas' problem. A good result can come to you by the time the flag drops. JB was the master of it. Finishing his first Merc race glued to his 3xWDC teammate's gearbox was a good result

No I was just explaining why perhaps it all wasn't Hamilton's fault and I wouldn't say that Bottas had a poor race in Australia just not quite as good as Hamilton because of his poor first stint which took him out of the running for winning the race.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:22 pm 
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Bottas never had the pace to win, that much is true. But the other side of the garage screwing the strategy was not his problem. Assuming Red Bull would pit or worse, expecting to coast past Max in Albert Park, was quite a blunder. Bottas then had the tyre advantage to reel his teammate in because, as you've corrected me, his teammate and the pitwall actually just panicked in the first stint. They threw their own race away. Either that's "poor" or it's not. And if it's not then Bottas wasn't "poor" either

2nd & 3rd isn't poor in my book but other people hold higher standards


Bottas was also 3rd in Spain, which would have also been 2nd and 3rd too.. I am analysing the performance not the result.

Bottas came close to Lewis because Lewis was held up not because Bottas was quick. If both had traffic free races, Bottas finishes 15+ seconds behind. Bottas was able to finish close to Lewis because he got held up and Bottas ran clear air the entire race. I am much more interested in the performance level rather than what happened to be the end result. The performance level tells you what a driver is capable of, a SC or traffic influencing a result tells you a lot less.

Its the same as the last race, Vettel did not under perform at all. He also got held up (losing 6-7 seconds) and that pretty much lost him the race too. Similar to what happened to Lewis in Australia.

Held up because of their own actions in the first stint. They did it to themselves. Performance isn't worth jack if you screw the strategy. They're part and parcel of the whole deal

Ferrari lost the Spanish GP by pitting too early in the first stint as well. It's their own fault that they lost the race. Vettel drove very well and finished 2nd. If Kimi was glued to his gearbox crossing the line I would have said they both drove a good race. Like I'm saying about both Mercs in Oz


The actual discussion was about driver race performance. So whilst I agree with most of what you say, I was discussing driver performance and specifically race pace. The entire discussion was about Bottas' poor race pace in parts of 4 of the 5 races. You dragged Hamilton into it saying he should also be classified as having a poor race pace (2nd stint) in Australia but I showed you the data that he was held up at the phase when he should have been quickest man on the track, his race pace was fine and the race was over once Vettel came out well ahead of him.

I agree though that the input Hamilton had into strategy was not great in Australia and neither was the pit wall.

I also agree with the context of it being a first race, overall it was a good performance but he dropped like 10 seconds off the lead in 17 laps and finished close to Lewis due to Lewis' race not panning out rather than Bottas actually being quick.


Last edited by lamo on Wed May 17, 2017 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers

I don't think it's quite there with Mercedes yet, if Bottas wins Monaco then it tilts the other way, I think if Mercedes were to see a definite team order given against Kimi then that might speed up their own thinking on the matter, but Kimi thus far has not been any threat to Vettel whatsoever.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Last edited by pokerman on Wed May 17, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:23 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
I still feel it's too early to back Hamilton as number 1. Another couple of races at least.

The Ferrari situation is much easier, as they don't really have to do anything - the situation is working out how they want quite nicely..


Indeed, any small chance Kimi had of winning the title or just being able to lead a Ferrari 1-2 home in a race ended yesterday. 55 points behind a driver who has beaten him 5-0 in races and qualifying, Ferrari won't let Kimi finish directly ahead of Vettel now there is no reason to allow that. Unless of course a car is between them and they can't do anything about it. Mercedes I feel will still allow Bottas to beat Hamilton however but that could change in the coming races if Lewis continues to finish ahead (4 out of 5 currently) and gets a 50+ point lead over him.

The simple continual question will be, given the points table and current form can Bottas beat Vettel to the title? Its unlikely now and I see it becoming more unlikely in the future. The nearer that gets to no, the less the chance Bottas will be allowed to finish ahead of Lewis (assuming he has a better chance of the title, which seems likely at the moment)


I agree with all your points :)

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