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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:10 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?


Probably. I don't know what criteria uses or how long they give it, but you'd have to assume they aren't really expecting Kimi to overhaul Seb anytime soon.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers


As much as I love the idea of equal opportunities for all, one must not forget that Bottas has won one race, Lewis has three WDCs in his pocket - who would you be backing? It's slightly different for Ferrari because both their drivers have won WDCs, but on the other hand, Kimi hasn't won a race for four years. So again, I wouldn't blame them for backing Vettel.

I'm reading Damon's book at the moment and one of the things he said about Senna was that he was amazed that he didn't ask for formal number one status. All he said was his equipment must not be inferior to his team-mates.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Alesi> For me the past isn't that important, its all about the present mainly. If Bottas and Hamilton switched seasons then you would have to say they need to begin to back Bottas (if the trend continues for another race or 2) regardless of only having 2 career wins and no WDCs compared to his team mate. This is the reason Hamilton was allowed to fight for the WDC post Monaco in 2007, he had team orders used against him twice in the early part of the season until Mclaren realised he was Alonso's equal.

Is the Hill book worth reading, I am surprised I haven't read that yet, which years does it cover?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:31 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers


As much as I love the idea of equal opportunities for all, one must not forget that Bottas has won one race, Lewis has three WDCs in his pocket - who would you be backing? It's slightly different for Ferrari because both their drivers have won WDCs, but on the other hand, Kimi hasn't won a race for four years. So again, I wouldn't blame them for backing Vettel.

I'm reading Damon's book at the moment and one of the things he said about Senna was that he was amazed that he didn't ask for formal number one status. All he said was his equipment must not be inferior to his team-mates.

That's all that Hamilton asks for as well.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:52 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-g2dpT2Mf4

Gotta love the fact that F1 now has a proper youtube channel. :thumbup:

With regards to the two overtakes, watch 2:40 and 3:38 to review them. The biggest difference to me was that Bottas defended in a less predictable way and forced Vettel to make a tough decision while Vettel simply covered the inside and made the decision for Hamilton (who went around the outside).


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-g2dpT2Mf4

Gotta love the fact that F1 now has a proper youtube channel. :thumbup:

With regards to the two overtakes, watch 2:40 and 3:38 to review them. The biggest difference to me was that Bottas defended in a less predictable way and forced Vettel to make a tough decision while Vettel simply covered the inside and made the decision for Hamilton (who went around the outside).


Even more amazed how Bottas braked in the start to not interfere with Hamilton, a clear #2 brake, that would never Nico have done : )

Lewis had a much bigger speed advantage than Seb had.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers


As much as I love the idea of equal opportunities for all, one must not forget that Bottas has won one race, Lewis has three WDCs in his pocket - who would you be backing? It's slightly different for Ferrari because both their drivers have won WDCs, but on the other hand, Kimi hasn't won a race for four years. So again, I wouldn't blame them for backing Vettel.

I'm reading Damon's book at the moment and one of the things he said about Senna was that he was amazed that he didn't ask for formal number one status. All he said was his equipment must not be inferior to his team-mates.

That's all that Hamilton asks for as well.

other than perhaps Alonso (and even that's not technically proven), I'm not aware of any driver on the grid today who asks for more


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers

I don't think it's quite there with Mercedes yet, if Bottas wins Monaco then it tilts the other way, I think if Mercedes were to see a definite team order given against Kimi then that might speed up their own thinking on the matter, but Kimi thus far has not been any threat to Vettel whatsoever.

How does it tilt the other way? Even if Bottas wins and Hamilton crashes out the latter would still be ahead in the points and would remain the best option for Mercedes to win the title.

It would take a lot more than a win at Monaco to give Bottas an equal seat at Mercedes, IMO. No reflection on Bottas, but Mercedes is a business and they will put their eggs in the basket that favours a decent result. Hamilton is proven, Bottas isn't. I think he'd have to step up enormously to be an effective contender.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:15 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
As I understood it, Ferrari's policy was always to start the season on equal terms and then back the driver who was doing better. Massa never started the season well (unfortunately) so he always ended up playing second fiddle.

So in that scenario Vettel is now the #1 driver for this season?

I think even if Vettel is not the formal number one he's almost certainly the defacto one. He's performing much better than Kimi is. That's not to say I agree that Kimi will always be thrown to the wolves, but I would be surprised if Vettel wasn't the main focus.

Same with Hamilton. For all that Bottas has shown occasional good pace, the smart money is on Hamilton being the most consistent and therefore realistic challenger. Whatever Wolff says, I have little doubt that Mercedes already prioritise Hamilton in their dealings with the drivers


As much as I love the idea of equal opportunities for all, one must not forget that Bottas has won one race, Lewis has three WDCs in his pocket - who would you be backing? It's slightly different for Ferrari because both their drivers have won WDCs, but on the other hand, Kimi hasn't won a race for four years. So again, I wouldn't blame them for backing Vettel.

I'm reading Damon's book at the moment and one of the things he said about Senna was that he was amazed that he didn't ask for formal number one status. All he said was his equipment must not be inferior to his team-mates.

I wouldn't blame either team for backing the two mentioned above. It's all about risk/reward


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:16 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-g2dpT2Mf4

Gotta love the fact that F1 now has a proper youtube channel. :thumbup:

With regards to the two overtakes, watch 2:40 and 3:38 to review them. The biggest difference to me was that Bottas defended in a less predictable way and forced Vettel to make a tough decision while Vettel simply covered the inside and made the decision for Hamilton (who went around the outside).


Even more amazed how Bottas braked in the start to not interfere with Hamilton, a clear #2 brake, that would never Nico have done : )

Lewis had a much bigger speed advantage than Seb had.

Not sure what video you're watching. They caught the car in front at nearly the exact same point on the track.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-g2dpT2Mf4

Gotta love the fact that F1 now has a proper youtube channel. :thumbup:

With regards to the two overtakes, watch 2:40 and 3:38 to review them. The biggest difference to me was that Bottas defended in a less predictable way and forced Vettel to make a tough decision while Vettel simply covered the inside and made the decision for Hamilton (who went around the outside).


Even more amazed how Bottas braked in the start to not interfere with Hamilton, a clear #2 brake, that would never Nico have done : )

Lewis had a much bigger speed advantage than Seb had.

Not sure what video you're watching. They caught the car in front at nearly the exact same point on the track.

Probably the ones where Hamilton managed to pass Vettel before making the turn, while Vettel had to complete the pass at the turn. Ergo Hamilton passed Vettel sooner. Ergo he was quicker


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-g2dpT2Mf4

Gotta love the fact that F1 now has a proper youtube channel. :thumbup:

With regards to the two overtakes, watch 2:40 and 3:38 to review them. The biggest difference to me was that Bottas defended in a less predictable way and forced Vettel to make a tough decision while Vettel simply covered the inside and made the decision for Hamilton (who went around the outside).


Even more amazed how Bottas braked in the start to not interfere with Hamilton, a clear #2 brake, that would never Nico have done : )

Lewis had a much bigger speed advantage than Seb had.

Not sure what video you're watching. They caught the car in front at nearly the exact same point on the track.

Probably the ones where Hamilton managed to pass Vettel before making the turn, while Vettel had to complete the pass at the turn. Ergo Hamilton passed Vettel sooner. Ergo he was quicker

They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:43 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.


Nothing biased here not : ) Vettel "swerves" while Bottas is cool, Vettel move out off the way, if that's how you judge it's up to you, let's just say that there haven't been many overtakes on a Merc om a straight since 2013, if you can't see the speed difference perhaps you should go and watch it again.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:12 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.


Nothing biased here not : ) Vettel "swerves" while Bottas is cool, Vettel move out off the way, if that's how you judge it's up to you, let's just say that there haven't been many overtakes on a Merc om a straight since 2013, if you can't see the speed difference perhaps you should go and watch it again.

The Ferrari was the faster car down the straight last weekend. This is something that has been factually established. Referencing 2013 is completely irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:16 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Alesi> For me the past isn't that important, its all about the present mainly. If Bottas and Hamilton switched seasons then you would have to say they need to begin to back Bottas (if the trend continues for another race or 2) regardless of only having 2 career wins and no WDCs compared to his team mate. This is the reason Hamilton was allowed to fight for the WDC post Monaco in 2007, he had team orders used against him twice in the early part of the season until Mclaren realised he was Alonso's equal.

Is the Hill book worth reading, I am surprised I haven't read that yet, which years does it cover?


Yes, I was a bit put off to start with because it takes forever to get to his F1 career, but I suppose he had a lot to say about his younger days, and lets not forget he was in his thirties when he got to F1 so fair enough.

I never really knew that much about Damon so it's quite enlightening, even though I remember watching those seasons it's interesting reading the background stories, like his struggles to find money to get into F1.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:22 pm 
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They are level as they cross that white line that goes accross the track, 2:50 in the video for Vettel. In fact Vettel seems closer at this point, but hard to tell due to camera angle. By the time they get to the 150 yard board Hamilton is level with Vettel in his pass and Vettel is also nearly level with Bottas, mayb 1m behind. However Vettel has a terrible entry line and has to brake much earlier and harder than Hamilton does in his move. Vettel lost that 1m moving his car around and going on the grass. The difference is on the brakes like I said in the other thread. Vettel could have made the move a lot easier by just going around the outside of Bottas. You lose a couple of mph moving the car around like Vettel did.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:27 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
lamo wrote:
Alesi> For me the past isn't that important, its all about the present mainly. If Bottas and Hamilton switched seasons then you would have to say they need to begin to back Bottas (if the trend continues for another race or 2) regardless of only having 2 career wins and no WDCs compared to his team mate. This is the reason Hamilton was allowed to fight for the WDC post Monaco in 2007, he had team orders used against him twice in the early part of the season until Mclaren realised he was Alonso's equal.

Is the Hill book worth reading, I am surprised I haven't read that yet, which years does it cover?


Yes, I was a bit put off to start with because it takes forever to get to his F1 career, but I suppose he had a lot to say about his younger days, and lets not forget he was in his thirties when he got to F1 so fair enough.

I never really knew that much about Damon so it's quite enlightening, even though I remember watching those seasons it's interesting reading the background stories, like his struggles to find money to get into F1.

:thumbup:

This is also a great book about the 1996 season, I read it about 20 years ago but it gives some great behind the scenes insights. It focuses on Hill, Schumacher and JV.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/09/16/r ... iams-1997/

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The Ferrari was the faster car down the straight last weekend. This is something that has been factually established. Referencing 2013 is completely irrelevant.


No way, the vid that's been up is from qualification where Vettel takes a different line and ends up faster on the straight or do you have any more so called facts?

I do believe that what Vettel did hasn't been done since 2013, and that's huge anyway you see it or not.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:37 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The Ferrari was the faster car down the straight last weekend. This is something that has been factually established. Referencing 2013 is completely irrelevant.


No way, the vid that's been up is from qualification where Vettel takes a different line and ends up faster on the straight or do you have any more so called facts?

I do believe that what Vettel did hasn't been done since 2013, and that's huge anyway you see it or not.

You can't be serious. The trap data comes from the front straight (literally right at the beginning of the lap). It is not affected by someone taking a different line. Also you are totally mistaken about no one overtaking a Mercedes since 2013 lol. Just last year Max had at least 2 overtakes on Rosberg and I distinctly remember Daniel overtaking Hamilton in 2014 during his win in Hungary.

I think you're giving yourself away here...


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
You can't be serious. The trap data comes from the front straight (literally right at the beginning of the lap). It is not affected by someone taking a different line. Also you are totally mistaken about no one overtaking a Mercedes since 2013 lol. Just last year Max had at least 2 overtakes on Rosberg and I distinctly remember Daniel overtaking Hamilton in 2014 during his win in Hungary.

I think you're giving yourself away here...


Off course I'm serious, but maybe not you? I can't find an overtake done on a straight like this one since 2013 on a Mercedes, but I can give you probably 100 Merc passes.

You don't think the line has anything to do with top speed, talking about giving yourself away...


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:12 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You can't be serious. The trap data comes from the front straight (literally right at the beginning of the lap). It is not affected by someone taking a different line. Also you are totally mistaken about no one overtaking a Mercedes since 2013 lol. Just last year Max had at least 2 overtakes on Rosberg and I distinctly remember Daniel overtaking Hamilton in 2014 during his win in Hungary.

I think you're giving yourself away here...


Off course I'm serious, but maybe not you? I can't find an overtake done on a straight like this one since 2013 on a Mercedes, but I can give you probably 100 Merc passes.

You don't think the line has anything to do with top speed, talking about giving yourself away...

You don't seem to understand. The trap figures come from the front straight. That means that they are measuring speed on the straight literally at the beginning of the lap. All drivers set themselves up to get the ideal exit going into their hot lap. There is no effect on speed measured on that straight that comes from a different racing line. Do you understand that?

You also seem stuck on this notion of talking about different years, different cars and different regulations as though they have any application to the present (and being inaccurate in doing so to boot).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPC4Xi55SfQ


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-g2dpT2Mf4

Gotta love the fact that F1 now has a proper youtube channel. :thumbup:

With regards to the two overtakes, watch 2:40 and 3:38 to review them. The biggest difference to me was that Bottas defended in a less predictable way and forced Vettel to make a tough decision while Vettel simply covered the inside and made the decision for Hamilton (who went around the outside).


Even more amazed how Bottas braked in the start to not interfere with Hamilton, a clear #2 brake, that would never Nico have done : )

Lewis had a much bigger speed advantage than Seb had.

Not sure what video you're watching. They caught the car in front at nearly the exact same point on the track.

Probably the ones where Hamilton managed to pass Vettel before making the turn, while Vettel had to complete the pass at the turn. Ergo Hamilton passed Vettel sooner. Ergo he was quicker

They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.

No.

Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.


Nothing biased here not : ) Vettel "swerves" while Bottas is cool, Vettel move out off the way, if that's how you judge it's up to you, let's just say that there haven't been many overtakes on a Merc om a straight since 2013, if you can't see the speed difference perhaps you should go and watch it again.

The Ferrari was the faster car down the straight last weekend. This is something that has been factually established. Referencing 2013 is completely irrelevant.

That's a lie, blatant. It's been established in qualifying. Not the race and certainly not in those overtaking moves


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You can't be serious. The trap data comes from the front straight (literally right at the beginning of the lap). It is not affected by someone taking a different line. Also you are totally mistaken about no one overtaking a Mercedes since 2013 lol. Just last year Max had at least 2 overtakes on Rosberg and I distinctly remember Daniel overtaking Hamilton in 2014 during his win in Hungary.

I think you're giving yourself away here...


Off course I'm serious, but maybe not you? I can't find an overtake done on a straight like this one since 2013 on a Mercedes, but I can give you probably 100 Merc passes.

You don't think the line has anything to do with top speed, talking about giving yourself away...

You don't seem to understand. The trap figures come from the front straight. That means that they are measuring speed on the straight literally at the beginning of the lap. All drivers set themselves up to get the ideal exit going into their hot lap. There is no effect on speed measured on that straight that comes from a different racing line. Do you understand that?

You also seem stuck on this notion of talking about different years, different cars and different regulations as though they have any application to the present (and being inaccurate in doing so to boot).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPC4Xi55SfQ


No, you don't understand, you cant compare 2 overtakes the way you did by some measurements.
How easy it is for them dependens on what speed they cary with them on that specific moment dependent on, what, which line they took, the tires that made them do that, do you understand?

So you found one overtake from 2013, to prove my point or, what?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not sure what video you're watching. They caught the car in front at nearly the exact same point on the track.

Probably the ones where Hamilton managed to pass Vettel before making the turn, while Vettel had to complete the pass at the turn. Ergo Hamilton passed Vettel sooner. Ergo he was quicker

They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.

No.

Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

So this seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the laws of physics now. Hamilton did not complete the move "in a shorter period of time". He braked later than Vettel did. He was able to do so because he was on the outside of the track and could carry more speed through the corner. Vettel was on the grass on the inside at one point during his pass. He had to brake much sooner and slow down much more. Hamilton was not "traveling faster" he was just able to take the corner basically from the racing line while Vettel was way off line on the inside.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.


Nothing biased here not : ) Vettel "swerves" while Bottas is cool, Vettel move out off the way, if that's how you judge it's up to you, let's just say that there haven't been many overtakes on a Merc om a straight since 2013, if you can't see the speed difference perhaps you should go and watch it again.

The Ferrari was the faster car down the straight last weekend. This is something that has been factually established. Referencing 2013 is completely irrelevant.

That's a lie, blatant. It's been established in qualifying. Not the race and certainly not in those overtaking moves


A lie? Its a fact isn't it, the highest speed recorded all weekend was Vettel wasn't it?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not sure what video you're watching. They caught the car in front at nearly the exact same point on the track.

Probably the ones where Hamilton managed to pass Vettel before making the turn, while Vettel had to complete the pass at the turn. Ergo Hamilton passed Vettel sooner. Ergo he was quicker

They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.

No.

Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

So this seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the laws of physics now. Hamilton did not complete the move "in a shorter period of time". He braked later than Vettel did. He was able to do so because he was on the outside of the track and could carry more speed through the corner. Vettel was on the grass on the inside at one point during his pass. He had to brake much sooner and slow down much more. Hamilton was not "traveling faster" he was just able to take the corner basically from the racing line while Vettel was way off line on the inside.

which doesn't really explain why Vettel was surprised at the speed Hamilton passed him. You'd think an F1 driver would understand about speed differences under braking...


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

That is only if you choose to ignore Vettel moving side to side and going on the grass, all of which scrub top speed. Vettel was about 1m behind where Hamilton was when Vettel braked. Although Vettel braked earlier as he was on the inside.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:29 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.


Nothing biased here not : ) Vettel "swerves" while Bottas is cool, Vettel move out off the way, if that's how you judge it's up to you, let's just say that there haven't been many overtakes on a Merc om a straight since 2013, if you can't see the speed difference perhaps you should go and watch it again.

The Ferrari was the faster car down the straight last weekend. This is something that has been factually established. Referencing 2013 is completely irrelevant.

That's a lie, blatant. It's been established in qualifying. Not the race and certainly not in those overtaking moves


A lie? Its a fact isn't it, the highest speed recorded all weekend was Vettel wasn't it?

it is a lie, yes, because you now it was during qualifying.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:31 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

That is only if you choose to ignore Vettel moving side to side and going on the grass, all of which scrub top speed. Vettel was about 1m behind where Hamilton was when Vettel braked. Although Vettel braked earlier as he was on the inside.

If being on the inside means braking earlier, how did he complete the move against Bottas, then?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

That is only if you choose to ignore Vettel moving side to side and going on the grass, all of which scrub top speed. Vettel was about 1m behind where Hamilton was when Vettel braked. Although Vettel braked earlier as he was on the inside.

If being on the inside means braking earlier, how did he complete the move against Bottas, then?


Because Bottas was on tyres that were at that point 3 seconds a lap slower and whilst old tyres don't affect V max they do affect braking.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:34 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You can't be serious. The trap data comes from the front straight (literally right at the beginning of the lap). It is not affected by someone taking a different line. Also you are totally mistaken about no one overtaking a Mercedes since 2013 lol. Just last year Max had at least 2 overtakes on Rosberg and I distinctly remember Daniel overtaking Hamilton in 2014 during his win in Hungary.

I think you're giving yourself away here...


Off course I'm serious, but maybe not you? I can't find an overtake done on a straight like this one since 2013 on a Mercedes, but I can give you probably 100 Merc passes.

You don't think the line has anything to do with top speed, talking about giving yourself away...

You don't seem to understand. The trap figures come from the front straight. That means that they are measuring speed on the straight literally at the beginning of the lap. All drivers set themselves up to get the ideal exit going into their hot lap. There is no effect on speed measured on that straight that comes from a different racing line. Do you understand that?

You also seem stuck on this notion of talking about different years, different cars and different regulations as though they have any application to the present (and being inaccurate in doing so to boot).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPC4Xi55SfQ


No, you don't understand, you cant compare 2 overtakes the way you did by some measurements.
How easy it is for them dependens on what speed they cary with them on that specific moment dependent on, what, which line they took, the tires that made them do that, do you understand?

So you found one overtake from 2013, to prove my point or, what?

You don't seem capable of coherent thought. You just said that a Mercedes hasn't been overtaken on a straight since 2013 so I did a quick youtube search for the 2013 season and found an example within seconds to disprove your point. A more thorough search would undoubtedly yield additional examples but you can do that yourself if you want to. More importantly, there is no significance to the events of past seasons with different cars/regs/engines/etc. when looking at what takes place this season.

You have absolutely nothing except your own assertions (which have been proven flawed and baseless) to support the point you're trying to make. I will try one last time to explain that the difference between the overtakes is that Hamilton went by on the outside of the track and without changing direction multiple times. He was therefore able to carry more speed and brake later than Vettel into turn 1. Vettel tried to dummy Bottas and swerved multiple times then went to the extreme inside; forcing him to brake earlier and harder and lose more speed. By the end of the lap, Vettel had pulled a 4 second gap to Bottas. By the end of Hamilton's lap, Vettel was 1 second behind him. There is no factual support for your claims.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:37 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Because Bottas was on tyres that were at that point 3 seconds a lap slower and whilst old tyres don't affect V max they do affect braking.


And still Vettel couldn't pass Bottas on the outside when he tried, because Bottas braked later?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.


Nothing biased here not : ) Vettel "swerves" while Bottas is cool, Vettel move out off the way, if that's how you judge it's up to you, let's just say that there haven't been many overtakes on a Merc om a straight since 2013, if you can't see the speed difference perhaps you should go and watch it again.

The Ferrari was the faster car down the straight last weekend. This is something that has been factually established. Referencing 2013 is completely irrelevant.

That's a lie, blatant. It's been established in qualifying. Not the race and certainly not in those overtaking moves

It's funny, I live in the United States and our country is going through this right now. Facts are being called lies and baseless views are being represented as though they are of equal validity. It's a very dangerous time for us.

With regards to your calling my statement a lie; what exactly is wrong with you? I have provided the links and shown proof that the Ferrari was the faster car down the straight in Barcelona. I have linked video evidence that shows the cars closing up at the same point on the circuit. I have provided facts and evidence!!! Where is yours!? I'm sick of having a debate with someone who provides no substantiation to any of his claims and then has the audacity to call me a liar. Prove something or you won't be taken seriously. PERIOD.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:41 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
lamo wrote:
Because Bottas was on tyres that were at that point 3 seconds a lap slower and whilst old tyres don't affect V max they do affect braking.


And still Vettel couldn't pass Bottas on the outside when he tried, because Bottas braked later?

Vettels was further back that lap and also Bottas was in the middle of the track that lap, Vettel began braking at the extreme right of the track at the 150m board when he finally overtook Bottas. When Hamilton overtook Vettel be braked just before the 100m board, about 30-40ms later on the brakes and in the standard braking point.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:42 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
You don't seem capable of coherent thought. You just said that " so I did a quick youtube search for the 2013 season and found an example within seconds to disprove your point. A more thorough search would undoubtedly yield additional examples but you can do that yourself if you want to. More importantly, there is no significance to the events of past seasons with different cars/regs/engines/etc. when looking at what takes place this season.

You have absolutely nothing except your own assertions (which have been proven flawed and baseless) to support the point you're trying to make. I will try one last time to explain that the difference between the overtakes is that Hamilton went by on the outside of the track and without changing direction multiple times. He was therefore able to carry more speed and brake later than Vettel into turn 1. Vettel tried to dummy Bottas and swerved multiple times then went to the extreme inside; forcing him to brake earlier and harder and lose more speed. By the end of the lap, Vettel had pulled a 4 second gap to Bottas. By the end of Hamilton's lap, Vettel was 1 second behind him. There is no factual support for your claims.


You are actually quite amusing, I didn't say those things, perhaps you should read before you make up some fancy words : )

You didn't watch Vettel try on the outside, but guess what, he didn't have the speed to pass the Mercedes but had to try to do it on the inside, do you get it now?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.

No.

Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

So this seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the laws of physics now. Hamilton did not complete the move "in a shorter period of time". He braked later than Vettel did. He was able to do so because he was on the outside of the track and could carry more speed through the corner. Vettel was on the grass on the inside at one point during his pass. He had to brake much sooner and slow down much more. Hamilton was not "traveling faster" he was just able to take the corner basically from the racing line while Vettel was way off line on the inside.

which doesn't really explain why Vettel was surprised at the speed Hamilton passed him. You'd think an F1 driver would understand about speed differences under braking...

What does that even mean? What substance is there to what you just said? How do you know Vettel was surprised? I see no evidence of that at all.

I'll go ahead and assume that you're referring to his comment about Hamilton going by "like a train" that he made on the radio? This does not indicate that he was surprised by the speed difference. Perhaps he was and perhaps he wasn't but the message indicates to me that he was frustrated that, in his opinion, he couldn't really do anything to keep Lewis behind. Even that is just my interpretation of a heat-of-the-moment comment. Rather than discussing our respective interpretations of anecdotal evidence, I'd prefer to deal with facts.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:50 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.

No.

Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

So this seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the laws of physics now. Hamilton did not complete the move "in a shorter period of time". He braked later than Vettel did. He was able to do so because he was on the outside of the track and could carry more speed through the corner. Vettel was on the grass on the inside at one point during his pass. He had to brake much sooner and slow down much more. Hamilton was not "traveling faster" he was just able to take the corner basically from the racing line while Vettel was way off line on the inside.

which doesn't really explain why Vettel was surprised at the speed Hamilton passed him. You'd think an F1 driver would understand about speed differences under braking...

What does that even mean? What substance is there to what you just said? How do you know Vettel was surprised? I see no evidence of that at all.

I'll go ahead and assume that you're referring to his comment about Hamilton going by "like a train" that he made on the radio? This does not indicate that he was surprised by the speed difference. Perhaps he was and perhaps he wasn't but the message indicates to me that he was frustrated that, in his opinion, he couldn't really do anything to keep Lewis behind. Even that is just my interpretation of a heat-of-the-moment comment. Rather than discussing our respective interpretations of anecdotal evidence, I'd prefer to deal with facts.

OK. It's an irrefutable fact that Hamilton completed his move before turning in. It's an irrefutable fact that Vettel was still alongside Bottas at the end of the straight. So logically Hamilton must have been faster. If he was slower, that sequence couldn't have happened.

See, the difference is I provide facts and commentary on the actual incident, not try to throw in data from wholly unrelated sessions and try to pass them off as proof of some kind


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:50 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You don't seem capable of coherent thought. You just said that " so I did a quick youtube search for the 2013 season and found an example within seconds to disprove your point. A more thorough search would undoubtedly yield additional examples but you can do that yourself if you want to. More importantly, there is no significance to the events of past seasons with different cars/regs/engines/etc. when looking at what takes place this season.

You have absolutely nothing except your own assertions (which have been proven flawed and baseless) to support the point you're trying to make. I will try one last time to explain that the difference between the overtakes is that Hamilton went by on the outside of the track and without changing direction multiple times. He was therefore able to carry more speed and brake later than Vettel into turn 1. Vettel tried to dummy Bottas and swerved multiple times then went to the extreme inside; forcing him to brake earlier and harder and lose more speed. By the end of the lap, Vettel had pulled a 4 second gap to Bottas. By the end of Hamilton's lap, Vettel was 1 second behind him. There is no factual support for your claims.


You are actually quite amusing, I didn't say those things, perhaps you should read before you make up some fancy words : )

You didn't watch Vettel try on the outside, but guess what, he didn't have the speed to pass the Mercedes but had to try to do it on the inside, do you get it now?

You do realize that there is a very clear history of what you've said in this thread I hope.

The difference (as I've explained many times) is that Bottas did not position himself on the inside the way Vettel did for Hamilton. If Vettel tried to go around the outside, he would have had Bottas right alongside and Valteri might have been able to outbrake him and then push him off on exit. Vettel still could have gone to the outside and tried it but he decided to try the inside instead. That's why he had to brake earlier. Vettel's defense on Hamilton took away the inside line while Bottas's defense on Vettel did not.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
They close up to the car in front at the same rate, they catch the car in front at the same place on track. With Hamilton's pass, Vettel moves all the way to the inside of the track (basically moves out of the way) and Hamilton is able to simply go around the outside (which allows him to brake later and carry more speed through the corner). Bottas, on the other hand, moves to the middle of the track; Vettel swerves a bit trying to bait Bottas into committing to a more aggressive line (this costs him speed). When Bottas doesn't take the bait, Vettel jumps last second to the inside line and has to be hard on the brakes.

In short, the difference wasn't speed and the trap data confirms that.

No.

Even if they reached each other at the same point, the fact that Hamilton completed the move in a shorter period of time only proves that he must have been travelling faster.

In short, the difference was speed and the trap data from qualifying is irrelevant

So this seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the laws of physics now. Hamilton did not complete the move "in a shorter period of time". He braked later than Vettel did. He was able to do so because he was on the outside of the track and could carry more speed through the corner. Vettel was on the grass on the inside at one point during his pass. He had to brake much sooner and slow down much more. Hamilton was not "traveling faster" he was just able to take the corner basically from the racing line while Vettel was way off line on the inside.

which doesn't really explain why Vettel was surprised at the speed Hamilton passed him. You'd think an F1 driver would understand about speed differences under braking...

What does that even mean? What substance is there to what you just said? How do you know Vettel was surprised? I see no evidence of that at all.

I'll go ahead and assume that you're referring to his comment about Hamilton going by "like a train" that he made on the radio? This does not indicate that he was surprised by the speed difference. Perhaps he was and perhaps he wasn't but the message indicates to me that he was frustrated that, in his opinion, he couldn't really do anything to keep Lewis behind. Even that is just my interpretation of a heat-of-the-moment comment. Rather than discussing our respective interpretations of anecdotal evidence, I'd prefer to deal with facts.

Vettel tells Hamilton he was shocked by the race winner’s speed down the straight
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/2017/may/14/f1-spanish-grand-prix-live


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