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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Interestingly, Wolff credits Rosberg with influencing the car development and says his input is missed now. Could this be having an impact on Lewis' setup struggles?

One other thing that Wolff has noticed about Rosberg's absence this year is that it has changed the level of engineering input from drivers – which had been one of the German's core strengths.

"Nico played a very important role in the development of the team," added Wolff. "He was pushing Lewis to the limits, and the two of them were pushing each other and therefore scoring very good results for us.

"If one had a bad day and couldn't find the direction of the car, the other one would do and then eventually they would help each other indirectly. And he had an engineering-like attitude that helped us also in the development. So that is missed.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-hamilton-different-person-rosberg-quit-910749


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:18 pm 
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So Hamilton was unable to beat his FP1(the first practice session mind you) time (1:13:425) in Q2 !!


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:24 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
So Hamilton was unable to beat his FP1(the first practice session mind you) time (1:13:425) in Q2 !!

I read that they changed the setup after FP1 and that's when they went backwards. It baffles me how they just couldn't go back to what they had as the Mercs looked better then


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:39 pm 
Pullrod wrote:
So Hamilton was unable to beat his FP1(the first practice session mind you) time (1:13:425) in Q2 !!


That is because he didn't set a clean lap, he still had the pace to start P5 today, maybe P4. The gap between Bottas and Ricciardo in 5th was 0.7 and Hamilton as slow as he was wasn't that far off Bottas, he was only 0.2 down on him before the yellow flag. A disaster for Hamilton he just needed to stay calm, keep it clean and accept he was slow and get 4th/5th on the grid.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:47 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
So Hamilton was unable to beat his FP1(the first practice session mind you) time (1:13:425) in Q2 !!


That is because he didn't set a clean lap, he still had the pace to start P5 today, maybe P4. The gap between Bottas and Ricciardo in 5th was 0.7 and Hamilton as slow as he was wasn't that far off Bottas, he was only 0.2 down on him before the yellow flag. A disaster for Hamilton he just needed to stay calm, keep it clean and accept he was slow and get 4th/5th on the grid.


How many times did he miss the chicane after the tunnel or have to fight with the steering wheel to keep his car on the track?
This car was nothing like the one he had in FP1. He was already at the limit.

He was unlucky with the yellow flag, and I get what you mean, but you should know by now that Lewis doen't do Q3 for P4/P5 so he tends to experiment here and there to find time. A weakness? maybe.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
So Hamilton was unable to beat his FP1(the first practice session mind you) time (1:13:425) in Q2 !!

I read that they changed the setup after FP1 and that's when they went backwards. It baffles me how they just couldn't go back to what they had as the Mercs looked better then


its seems like Mercedes brought 3 different cars to Monaco, lets see which car shows up tomorrow for the race.
still don't get how they could have gone so backwards in PF2 with setup.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Didnt Hamilton say he didnt want to share set ups this year....


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:09 pm 
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ynot22 wrote:
Didnt Hamilton say he didnt want to share set ups this year....

Ah yeah maybe it's backfiring.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:16 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
ynot22 wrote:
Didnt Hamilton say he didnt want to share set ups this year....

Ah yeah maybe it's backfiring.


:nod:

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:28 am 
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I believe Toto said they had the same set up but one tyre on Lewis's car was consistently 8° cooler than the others and they don't know why. He had a similar issue in Russia they said.

Very strange to only have issues with one tyre, if it was warm up issues you'd expect it to be either fronts or rears as a pair but to just have the one problem tyre?. The load is on the lefts here isn't it?, so maybe one of the rights not getting enough heat in under load, front or rear depending on camber?,toe?,too much under/over steer?. What do we think?.

Bit weird.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:19 am 
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Bottas said he learned a lot during the Pirelli tyre test earlier this year. He also seemed to be better at getting the tyre temperatures into the right zone and keeping them there, when he got a pole position.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:44 am 
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This quali result brings us back to the original thought behind the thread (albeit from the opposite direction) - Ferrari must back Vettel, now?


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:52 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I believe Toto said they had the same set up but one tyre on Lewis's car was consistently 8° cooler than the others and they don't know why. He had a similar issue in Russia they said.


Wouldn't that indicate some mechanical issue, suspension related perhaps? Was it a rear tire?


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:53 am 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
ynot22 wrote:
Didnt Hamilton say he didnt want to share set ups this year....

Ah yeah maybe it's backfiring.


:nod:

:lol: Hopefully we will both be smiling come the end of this race, Blake. That would be something!

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:59 am 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
ynot22 wrote:
Didnt Hamilton say he didnt want to share set ups this year....

Ah yeah maybe it's backfiring.


:nod:

A few cheap shots being fired here with the normal appreciation society backing it up.

He actually was talking about driver telemetry not car set ups.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
ynot22 wrote:
Didnt Hamilton say he didnt want to share set ups this year....

Ah yeah maybe it's backfiring.


:nod:

:lol:

But don't worry - Hamilton will soon assure us that it was down to something entirely different.

Perhaps tweeting telemetry to 'prove' that he was somehow disadvantaged.

Nonetheless, it would be interesting to learn whether Lewis got his way and sharing set-up data between team mates has been stopped within Merc.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:03 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
This quali result brings us back to the original thought behind the thread (albeit from the opposite direction) - Ferrari must back Vettel, now?

I apologise for repeating my own post - but now would be a good time for Lewis supporters to declare whether they think Ferrari should back Seb.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:22 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I believe Toto said they had the same set up but one tyre on Lewis's car was consistently 8° cooler than the others and they don't know why. He had a similar issue in Russia they said.


Wouldn't that indicate some mechanical issue, suspension related perhaps? Was it a rear tire?


Didn't specify I'm afraid (Or at least it wasn't posted on the forum I read it), I was wondering myself in the second part of that post whether it was one of the rights due to the lefts taking the brunt of load here but that's just me thinking out loud.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:32 pm 
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At this rate, in a few races Mercedes might have to back Bottas...

I mean every other race Hamilton decides to go AWOL.

Whereas Bottas can only keep getting better, as he gets to grips with his new car.

Surely...

:-P :-P :-P


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:44 pm 
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To bring back my "what if" thing again, if Hamilton has a problem in Canada like Bottas did in spain and Bottas wins in here (where he is extremely strong), the difference in the championship will be 4 points. Barely anything. Even if Bottas had finished 3rd in Spain, he'd have 90 now, only 14 behind Hamilton. And that really doesn't seem like much considering how highly Hamilton is rated and under rated Bottas often is does it?

We are now over 25% through the season and overall, Hamilton has only been slightly better and it's been Bottas who's had worse luck. Even qualifying is equal. I think what we have seen shows that Bottas is very capable at being a good, reliable driver for this team. It is still too soon to back Hamilton IMO. I hope Mercedes will keep Bottas next year.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:48 pm 
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if merc do favour lewis over bottas they won't do it by bringing bottas in so he comes out in traffic as Ferrari did with kimi, now that is a crazy way for a team to show a driver how irrelevant he is

lets hope a hungry Alonso dons red next year


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:15 pm 
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slide wrote:
if merc do favour lewis over bottas they won't do it by bringing bottas in so he comes out in traffic as Ferrari did with kimi,


Oh ffs, reasoned discussion is just lost on some people.
By now you should realise Kimi was pit out of traffic just as much as hewas pit into it.

But yeah Ferrari have a crystal ball and knew exactly which it of the backmarkers would pit out of the way and which of them wouldn't.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:27 pm 
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all the commentators are saying this , kimi thinks this , lewis thinks this , there is an opinion beyond the vettel fans


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:49 pm 
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slide wrote:
all the commentators are saying this , kimi thinks this , lewis thinks this , there is an opinion beyond the vettel fans


All biased commentators think this, probably.
I'd like to see any proof for Kimi thinking this?
Lewis sure thinks this.

Toto doesn't think this.
Horner doesn't think this.

There is an opinion beyond the Kimi and Hammy fans.

Also, you can try actually thinking about my previous post and responding to it instead of just another cop out. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, ultimately. Masses have been wrong before.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:05 pm 
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kimi's face said everything, and it would not come as a shock shock horror moment if good old "always play it fair between team mates Ferrari" were to think in terms of a 1 and 2 driver, - yes I know what ya thinking Ferrari would never do this


Last edited by slide on Mon May 29, 2017 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:15 pm 
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slide wrote:
kimi's face said everything


"Life sucks"


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:29 pm 
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slide wrote:
kimi's face said everything, and it would not come as a shock shock horror moment if good old "always play it fair between team mates Ferrari" were to think in terms of a 1 and 2 driver, - yes I know what ya thinking Ferrari would never do this



Also, you can try actually thinking about my previous post and responding to it instead of just another cop out.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:49 pm 
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why do I have to respond to any of your posts ? - are you important ?


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Did I tell you what you HAVE to do? Nope.

Anyway, why are you even on a forum if you can't muster the common decency of conducting in civilised debate? You do understand that such is the purpose of a forum right?

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:26 pm 
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only if I want to and I don't , but thx


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:42 am 
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From what I've seen. I think it all started when Ferrari thought, just like what RBR thought, the brand new SS would be faster than the old US (as is the usual case in other races). They saw MV with new SS was faster than VB and even almost undercut VB, that's why they responded by boxing their LEAD DRIVER first, the usual practice in any race. Actually they (Ferrari), as well as RBR, (and Mercedez too by pitting Bottas), were wrong this time because actually DR could go faster with his old US. So they let SV do what DR did.

Whether Ferrari hoped SV to beat KR although the latter was leading before pit stop, although it's right considering their current positions in the standing, is another story. This time I saw it as a miscalculation only. Remember Spain 2016? DR and SV were fighting for P1 while MV and KR were fighting for P3 at a distance. Both Ferrari and RBR boxed their lead drivers, only to find out that the tires could've last until the last lap. So they didn't box MV and KR who eventually finished at P1 and P2. It's a miscalculation, guys. No one screamed favoritism toward MV and KR.

And also remember Mercedez miscalculated LH's timing in Australia, and Ferrari for SV in Spain, both just recently in 2017? Why is it so difficult to understand? Miscalculations happened and will keep happening, so what?


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:50 am 
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
To bring back my "what if" thing again, if Hamilton has a problem in Canada like Bottas did in spain and Bottas wins in here (where he is extremely strong), the difference in the championship will be 4 points. Barely anything. Even if Bottas had finished 3rd in Spain, he'd have 90 now, only 14 behind Hamilton. And that really doesn't seem like much considering how highly Hamilton is rated and under rated Bottas often is does it?

We are now over 25% through the season and overall, Hamilton has only been slightly better and it's been Bottas who's had worse luck. Even qualifying is equal. I think what we have seen shows that Bottas is very capable at being a good, reliable driver for this team. It is still too soon to back Hamilton IMO. I hope Mercedes will keep Bottas next year.


Vettel has finished ahead of Bottas 5-1 in the races and is 54 points ahead of Bottas. Bottas has not shown he can compete with Vettel for this WDC, finishing ahead once in 5 races doesn't make you a title challenger, in fact the opposite. He has also only had the speed to win 1 race. Hamilton could/might have won 4 races this year (Hamilton wins Australia if Max pits and possibly Bahrain without the pit box penalty). Bottas' WDC hopes took another big blow this weekend, more than Hamiltons because its becoming more unlikely he can catch Vettel with every passing race and although Hamilton lost more points to Vettel, Bottas is moving into the range of it being impossible. In fact if Bottas DNF'd in Canada and Vettel won or even came 2nd he is basically finished for the WDC being 75-80 points behind and slower. Hamilton was 45 behind last year but quicker than Rosberg for context...

If Hamilton has a DNF in Canada and Vettel wins, both Mercedes are likely out of the WDC race baring a very strong comeback from one of them combined with Vettel bad luck and reliability issues. Hamilton is still there only real shot and he needs to win in Canada to get it back on track.


Last edited by lamo on Tue May 30, 2017 6:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:54 am 
LKS1 wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
This quali result brings us back to the original thought behind the thread (albeit from the opposite direction) - Ferrari must back Vettel, now?

I apologise for repeating my own post - but now would be a good time for Lewis supporters to declare whether they think Ferrari should back Seb.


As a Lewis supporter I said on my first comment it is obvious Ferrari should back Vettel, it would have been silly to let Kimi beat him in Monaco.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:55 am 
ferdinand wrote:
From what I've seen. I think it all started when Ferrari thought, just like what RBR thought, the brand new SS would be faster than the old US (as is the usual case in other races). They saw MV with new SS was faster than VB and even almost undercut VB, that's why they responded by boxing their LEAD DRIVER first, the usual practice in any race. Actually they (Ferrari), as well as RBR, (and Mercedez too by pitting Bottas), were wrong this time because actually DR could go faster with his old US. So they let SV do what DR did.

Whether Ferrari hoped SV to beat KR although the latter was leading before pit stop, although it's right considering their current positions in the standing, is another story. This time I saw it as a miscalculation only. Remember Spain 2016? DR and SV were fighting for P1 while MV and KR were fighting for P3 at a distance. Both Ferrari and RBR boxed their lead drivers, only to find out that the tires could've last until the last lap. So they didn't box MV and KR who eventually finished at P1 and P2. It's a miscalculation, guys. No one screamed favoritism toward MV and KR.

And also remember Mercedez miscalculated LH's timing in Australia, and Ferrari for SV in Spain, both just recently in 2017? Why is it so difficult to understand? Miscalculations happened and will keep happening, so what?


Whilst I agree with a lot of what you are saying for normal races, it did not apply here.

Kimi had ample buffer to wait it out and see how it progressed, he was 5 second ahead of Bottas when Bottas pitted. Bottas was NEVER going to undercut him. They also pitted him directly into traffic, in fact the same traffic he took 3 laps to clear (and lost seconds per lap) just a few laps earlier.

If they pitted Kimi 1 or 2 laps later he would not have come out into that traffic and won the race, it was clear Bottas could not undercut him by 5 seconds. Ferrari could also see, like all of us, Max's pace on the new tyres was poor - his first lap was 0.2 quicker than his old ultra soft time so no danger of anybody undercutting the Ferraris with that kind of tyre differential. Ferrrari also saw, like I did on live timing Bottas was slow in his first 2 sectors on the new SS. Ferrari knew what they were doing, giving Vettel an opportunity to win the race.

Looking at the times as well, it is obvious they gave Vettel full qualifying modes for his in laps. Whilst Kimi did not get the opportunity to go full out on his in laps because he did not know he would be pitting until half a lap before he was.

Ferrari did the right thing, Vettel leads the WDC by 24 points and not 17. Ferrari got there 1-2 and did it in a way it wasn't too obvious, but if you watched live timing it was obvious new SS were slow, we all knew it and Ferrari used that to get Kimi out the way. Kimi obviously knew it without even looking over the data and race, look at his face immediately post race.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:37 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Kimi had ample buffer to wait it out and see how it progressed, he was 5 second ahead of Bottas when Bottas pitted. Bottas was NEVER going to undercut him. They also pitted him directly into traffic, in fact the same traffic he took 3 laps to clear (and lost seconds per lap) just a few laps earlier.


- even if not pitting Kimi came up on traffic as well
- suppose Kimi didn't pit, catches traffic and loses him and Vettel time, all the while Sainz pits and doesn't hold up Bottas. Ferrari then has two cars to pit. Both stacking them as well as pitting them on consecutive laps pretty much ensures Vettel gets jumped.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:38 pm 
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi had ample buffer to wait it out and see how it progressed, he was 5 second ahead of Bottas when Bottas pitted. Bottas was NEVER going to undercut him. They also pitted him directly into traffic, in fact the same traffic he took 3 laps to clear (and lost seconds per lap) just a few laps earlier.


- even if not pitting Kimi came up on traffic as well
- suppose Kimi didn't pit, catches traffic and loses him and Vettel time, all the while Sainz pits and doesn't hold up Bottas. Ferrari then has two cars to pit. Both stacking them as well as pitting them on consecutive laps pretty much ensures Vettel gets jumped.


The Ferrari's were 5 seconds clear of Bottas and lapping quicker than him once he put on his SS. The traffic that they would have caught if they stayed out would not have been until lap 39, they pitted Kimi on lap 35 and brought him out into traffic. If they pitted Kimi on lap 36-38 he has no traffic at all.

There was zero chance of Vettel getting jumped, Bottas and Max were slow on the SS tyre. This was clear immediately. The most obvious thing is, you don't pit Kimi the lap they did. 1 lap later is obvious so he comes out ahead of the Button/Wehrlein battle.


Last edited by lamo on Tue May 30, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:46 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi had ample buffer to wait it out and see how it progressed, he was 5 second ahead of Bottas when Bottas pitted. Bottas was NEVER going to undercut him. They also pitted him directly into traffic, in fact the same traffic he took 3 laps to clear (and lost seconds per lap) just a few laps earlier.


- even if not pitting Kimi came up on traffic as well
- suppose Kimi didn't pit, catches traffic and loses him and Vettel time, all the while Sainz pits and doesn't hold up Bottas. Ferrari then has two cars to pit. Both stacking them as well as pitting them on consecutive laps pretty much ensures Vettel gets jumped.


The Ferrari's were 5 seconds clear of Bottas and lapping quicker than him once he put on his SS. The traffic that they would have caught if they stayed out would not have been until lap 39, they pitted Kimi on lap 35 and brought him out into traffic. If they pitted Kimi on lap 36-38 he has no traffic at all.

There was zero chance of Vettel getting jumped, Bottas and Max were slow on the SS tyre. This was clear immediately.


Bit in bold is hindsight. There was a backmarker that pitted the lap after Kimi did which they would have met - Vettel just caught up with him through S3.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:48 pm 
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
mds wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi had ample buffer to wait it out and see how it progressed, he was 5 second ahead of Bottas when Bottas pitted. Bottas was NEVER going to undercut him. They also pitted him directly into traffic, in fact the same traffic he took 3 laps to clear (and lost seconds per lap) just a few laps earlier.


- even if not pitting Kimi came up on traffic as well
- suppose Kimi didn't pit, catches traffic and loses him and Vettel time, all the while Sainz pits and doesn't hold up Bottas. Ferrari then has two cars to pit. Both stacking them as well as pitting them on consecutive laps pretty much ensures Vettel gets jumped.


The Ferrari's were 5 seconds clear of Bottas and lapping quicker than him once he put on his SS. The traffic that they would have caught if they stayed out would not have been until lap 39, they pitted Kimi on lap 35 and brought him out into traffic. If they pitted Kimi on lap 36-38 he has no traffic at all.

There was zero chance of Vettel getting jumped, Bottas and Max were slow on the SS tyre. This was clear immediately.


Bit in bold is hindsight. There was a backmarker that pitted the lap after Kimi did which they would have met - Vettel just caught up with him through S3.


My mistake, either way Kimi had 5 seconds to Bottas and was lapping quicker than him. He was under no threat from Bottas. Neither Ferrari ever was.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:48 pm 
My mistake, either way Kimi was a net 5 seconds ahead of Bottas and was lapping quicker than him. He was under no threat from Bottas. Neither Ferrari ever was and that was clear looking at the live timing in real time.

Kimi was 5 seconds ahead of Bottas, pitted 1 lap later and it was 6 seconds by the time he came out.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Maybe Ferrari have an eye on history. Vettel's results this year have been identical to Alonso's in 2006: 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st. He just needs to win the next three and he'll be a shoe in for the title :D


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